BPDFamily.com

It's now 2 months that I've been either NC or very low contact with my uBPDh (long-distance/commuter marriage of 8 years, no shared kids). I'm still conflicted about whether I want to remain married and try to make it work, or divorce. Without being able to discuss r/s issues with him, it feels weird. As for him, I believe he is just waiting it out as usual. He waits until he feels I have forgotten about the last time he dis-regulated (when he got off a train headed my way to go back to his place, and cut off all ties with me over a texting argument).

I've been taking a breather to figure things out, except for one FaceTime conversation during which I issued ultimatums that met with a counter-ultimatum from him, of course. In the intervening time I've realized a few things:

1) He had texted me bluntly, "You are a fool" when I told him I believed my D15 when she said she did not read our texts when I lent her my phone. This precipitated a fight in which he could claim I called him a pedophile, which gave him the moral ground to block and shun me and demand a retraction/apology.

2) I've already apologized, and it's not so important that he will never apologize for hurting me by getting off the train and ghosting me on social media and the phone/apps. I've realized that he has not been truly involved with me for a while, and that he gets erotic pleasure mainly from pornography. That is why he felt deep down that I was a fool. I didn't suspect this before, or didn't think it was important. That's why he took my "Lolita" comment so seriously—deep down he feels he is a dirty lech.

Like many, if not most, women, I find the use of pornography-with-masturbation to be pretty gross. It's not so much that I'm jealous; it makes him a douche-bag in my eyes. I don't fancy the idea of being married to a man who does this, especially when he is not intimately involved with me. In other words, he got off that train pretty easily—because he was not looking forward to making love to me. His sexuality has been warped by porn use into preferring a solo performance, with no give-and-take or pressure from a living partner. On top of it, he's wracked with shame over this lechery, and God help me if I step on this additional mine in the already prickly minefield. He will heartlessly cut off all ties (then expect to come back in a few days or weeks).

He has suffered from a degree of erectile dysfunction or impotence for many years (we're in our late 50s). He said that he could hardly ever achieve an erection with his previous gf before me. Of course, he blamed her personality, claiming she was always angry with him. Then with me he was usually able to maintain an erection for some time, but would lose it most of the time before reaching a climax. At first, he took Viagra to ensure a better result, but he started to have severe GI problems that we felt could be caused by it. He also has cardiovascular concerns, so overall we thought it better to give up the Viagra (it was also getting extremely expensive here in the U.S.). So lately, without the little blue pill and with advancing age, his success rate at hitting the big O (for himself; it's usually no problem for me) has declined to 25% or less. The last few times we were together, I could tell he was avoiding sex with me. I even took him out for a romantic "dessert date," and when we got home he gave me the slip so that he could start sleeping before I got to bed.

With pornography and masturbation, I'm sure he does a lot better. I feel like, "Why bother?" Since that's what he prefers, and there's neither intimacy nor communication between us anymore, why make the effort? Because of his BPD, we cannot discuss any of these issues freely. He would simply hang up or walk away if I brought up any of this on the phone or in person—he seems to have a dose of NPD on top of the BPD. I feel like an idiot because I have never even thought about anyone else while masturbating since falling in love with him—I fantasized about him. I cast my pearls before swine, as the Good Book cautions us not to do. I'm not religious anymore, but the passage is so perfect for those involved with pwBPD: "Do not give what is holy to the dogs, nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you in pieces" (Matthew 7:6).

P.S. How did I realize he is using pornography for self-stimulation? In part, because I read a recent article in THE ATLANTIC. It explains how men are increasingly trying to do things they see in porn, like choking women, with their partners. Guess what he likes to do? Choke me, pull my hair, thrust into my mouth, and a host of other porn specialties that I really don't enjoy—I would do them or go along with them for his benefit. Now that I've had this epiphany, these practices disgust me.

Why not ask him why he likes these things.  Perhaps in his case... .it has nothing to do with porn.  Perhaps he just finds you attractive. 

The  red-flag is being disgusted over something that may not be. 

Said/asked another way.  Are articles written "about why women do things"... .usually accurate when applied to you?

FF

FF, there is no communication between us at present. I tried to bring this topic up via email, and he answered, "The abuse will stop!" Typical NPD/BPD when you are on to them.

THE ATLANTIC is a pretty reliable source. I've never had cause to take issue with their articles about women. Do you think that men who choke women and pull their hair are doing it because they find this particular woman attractive, or because they are into porn? Of course he finds me attractive; that's not the point, but he mainly satisfies his needs through pornography, so he is not motivated to be a good husband to me. We have no real intimacy, and I'm deciding whether I want to divorce him or not. Obviously, he has seen this stuff in the porn he uses, and he wants to duplicate the experience with me. I feel that his porn use has been harmful to our marriage; he does not want a real connection with me. It's objectification; he has no empathy. How long should I consent to this? As he said, "I am a fool" as long as I am involved with him. In our last phone call he said, "Go ahead and do whatever you're going to do." He knows that he is mainly involved with the porn, and sooner or later I will get disgusted and divorce him.

You’re not sure if you want to stay married, but you have little opportunity to talk about issues with him because he’s not open for dialog. You’re turned off by his use of pornography for sexual gratification and apparently he might be a bit hesitant to be sexual with you due to ED issues. And some of the more offbeat sexual activities he has been interested in with you seem to be behaviors he’s seen in porn and certainly don’t feel good to you. You feel objectified when he’s done these activities with you.

If you were to list reasons why you stay vs. what would lead you to divorce, what column would have more entries?

Yes, Cat Familiar, that is an accurate assessment. I will make the list, but it's not as easy as which column is longer. There's quantitative, and there's qualitative. But I will do it as a step in the process.

Since I’m very mechanistic, I like to quantify these types of issues on a cost/benefit basis. I know this is not a common way of making big emotional decisions, but hey, I’m kind of an Aspie and it definitely helps me see the forest from the trees.

So what I do is weight each item on a numeric scale (see what a nerd I am?  ) and then you can come up with a mathematical analysis of each option on your decision tree.

And sometimes , much to my surprise, I will discover that I choose the lesser numerically weighted option, and that will be the right choice for me, despite the mathematics.

Yes, I can understand that, and I have some aspie traits too, but I don't think I can do a fully weighted analysis. I made the list, and the cons are more than twice as long as the pros. The former contains deal breakers (not open to dialogue; does not show any empathy or care for me), but the latter also has its heavyweight entries (claims to love me). I'm reminded of what Randy Pausch ("The Last Lecture") stated as his future advice to his daughter: put no stock in what he says, and pay attention to what he does.

I share your concerns about the impact of porn on a marriage, but also, the two of you have a long distance relationship and he would have little option but to take care of business on his own when he isn't with you.

ED is a difficult issue as it is so visible for men in the bedroom and so can elicit feelings of inadequacy and embarrassment. It also has an effect on the partner as it is so difficult to talk about and if they are getting blamed for it, they too may feel responsible or inadequate. If someone has BPD and can't handle uncomfortable emotions, then it is understandable that a discussion about this would be difficult. If he's avoiding you in the bedroom, it may have more to do with his own embarrassment than not wanting to be intimate with you.

If he's ashamed of his porn habit, I can imagine bringing this up for discussion would be difficult. It's not just the porn though, but the fact that going solo also avoids any fear of failure to perform and that would be difficult to discuss as well.

I don't have  a solution, but I think the porn is part of the issue and that ED is another contributor.

I don't dispute they are a reliable source for talking in general about why people do things.  I do dispute them being a reliable source as to why your husband does things.

For the bolded question... I don't think it is a dichotomous choice.  I don't know how many answers there are, but I'm pretty sure there are a lot.  While it's not my thing, I know there are some people that are into that thing and there are people that aren't into that thing.

Within the group of people that are into that thing... .they could all have different reasons why.

My purpose is not to defend porn or your husbands sexuality choices.  Remember... you are one of those choices!

My purpose is to say that you should ask your husband why he likes those things (and things he doesn't like) and have a chance to let him know what you like and don't like.  

Imputing motive to you husband... .especially imputing motive that results in your disgust of his sexuality to an article that he was not involved with (wasn't interviewed for) is unlikely to do anything positive for your relationship.

Some of his sexual activities with you seem to matter greatly to you.   Wouldn't direct communication with him help clarify the situation?

FF

Hey SweetCharlotte,

I have to very much agree with FF and Notwendy here. Determining your H's motivations by an editors view in an article is simplifying a very complex situation. As a fella porn appeals from the perspective of it's simplicity... .vs sex which had become incredibly complicated.

When I first met my W we were at it like rabbits, nothing was off limits and everything was super super natural and free flowing. Over time restrictions were placed like no going down, no multiple shots, covers over, it's too late, it's too early, kids can hear, she made too much noise, not in the mood, was in the mood but you didn't notice, you haven't noticed my haircut... .the list could go on and on... .and sorry to be crass, when we met if we fancied humping on the kitchen table at 2 in the afternoon... .well we just did. Sex became a huge sense of shame to me, opposite to your H I've no issues on the ED front but lets just say I tend to be pretty revved up for the first lap... .so used to rely on lap 2 and 3 to get her "there"... .but she banned lap 2 and 3. Additionally I got fed up with rejection... .time after time after time after time. I have never turned my W down day or night. So, for me, and maybe your husband porn serves a convenient way to meet sexual needs without running into the emotions of shame, rejection, disappointment. I know that I can make my W bounce off the ceiling if she'd only let me... .and maybe your husband has similar if not polar opposite feelings.

On the face of the throat grabbing and hair pulling... .it's not my idea of love making and possibly verging on contemptuous... .but... .maybe for a man who possibly feels a bit emasculated by his lack of wood, it makes him feel more manly. Like it or not, the guys in porn come across as pretty masculine as they have women going wild over them. Could it be him making himself feel more manly by making you feel like his  :cursing:. I'm not sure it is intended to hurt you... .it's so difficult to suppose as it could mean so many different things to him. My guess is he wants to pleasure you, he wants you to go wild FOR HIM... .I'm not sure there's many men who don't want that... .Look how much I can pleasure my wife... .I AM THE MAN!

Enabler

I think what men who’ve responded about these behaviors (hair pulling and throat grabbing) miss is that these are violent acts and are painful and frightening.

These aren’t normal loving sexual behaviors and if they suddenly emerged and weren’t experienced previously, then SweetCharlotte is likely correct that he learned to do this by watching porn.

Throat grabbing is just one step away from strangulation. I’ve never experienced this as “a playful sexual activity”, but I have experienced it when my xBPDh attacked me violently.

I wouldn’t believe that most women would welcome hair pulling or throat grabbing or see it as loving sexual behavior. Just my opinion... .

Don’t get me wrong Cat, I wholeheartedly agree with you and without jumping to conclusions about another mans motivations it most likely does come from porn and/or his inner desire to dominate/be a great lover. I’m pretty sure he feels utterly emasculated by his ED, and given his emotional issues it would make sense that he would want to get back his empowerment by any means necessary... .BUT, I don’t believe it is intended to hurt her or frighten her... .nor am I suggesting it should be considered acceptable if it does frighten or hurt.

I guess I’m simple terms yes, I agree that he maybe mimicking “great lovers” in an attempt to make himself AND her feel he is a great lover again. Feeling = fact!

Porn maybe him living out the fantasy of being a great lover.

When you have sex do you tell him “oh I love it when you do that”? Avoid any critisim instead guide.

I generally agree that most would not find those activities "loving".  That's all fine for talking and general discussion.

The real issue here is not what others like or don't like... .it's what's going on in this particular relationship.  And how they communicate and understand each other... .or the lack of communication and understanding.

FF

Thank you, notwendy. I wasn't fully aware of the role his ED is playing in our current problems. This has made me more mindful. I still don't know what I will do, but I feel more conscious of the complexities on his side.

Here is the ATLANTIC article, btw.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/the-sex-recession/573949/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/the-sex-recession/573949/)
Reading it made many things fall into place for me. I didn't mind the choking, and even enjoyed it because he doesn't do it too hard (we don't need a safe word, for example). As for the hair pulling, I always barely tolerated it. It hurts, it's degrading, and I'm not into that. I've told him, but he still tries it periodically to see if I've changed my mind. So I guess I like a little domination, but no pain. What I don't like is the feeling that he is getting his sexual needs met with pornography instead of with me, or that he has about as much empathy for me as a man would feel toward an objectified woman in pornography. In that sense, the pornography is damaging to the r/s.

In addition, he empathizes more with women he only knows through social media, which is another sticking point in our r/s. He constantly follows the activities of several women he knows in this manner, and feels compassion for them when their husbands leave them, etc. Then he goes and leaves me in the lurch for weeks at a time, without a backward glance. It irritates me that he is constantly checking his phone to read about these other females when he is with me (I know this because he tells me what they are up to, even when we are lying in bed together). Yet if I (or my D15) step on one of the mines in his minefield, he is merciless. He takes away all the subscriptions we shared (some of which I used for work) and unfriends or blocks me on social media. I'm disgusted by the thought that a man I thought was my husband is looking at other women while masturbating and engaging in dialogue with women he barely knows on social media, without regard for the woman to whom he is married, and with whom he is supposed to be sharing his life. There is currently no way I can discuss any of these issues with him, because he is not accepting my calls or texts, and we live six hours apart from each other.

Enabler, you are describing a fountain to someone crawling across the desert, but thank you for your comparisons. I'm becoming more aware of the impact his ED is having in all this. I would not wish this on you, but it is pretty much the way of all (male) flesh, when you get into your 50s especially. Some fellows may hold out into their 60s or 70s, but eventually, you are not defying gravity the way you used to. My uBPDh has health issues, so he is not on the lucky end of the spectrum.

I'm very orgasmic with him, so he always felt that as a positive reinforcement of his manliness. So fortunately, although he runs out of wood, I've usually had one or two. Of course, I'm not getting any younger either. When he loses it, it means he will want to try again the next time he is able. That's where I become less willing. I would rather we were both "appeased" for a while, and we didn't have to keep trying on his behalf—first thing in the morning, after the shower, etc., etc. That's when I would like a rest. I understand about your W's rules; I've read about that as a female BPD trait. That's not going on with me; I would just appreciate a refractory period of 24-48 hours after being satisfied. However, I will press myself into service if he still hasn't gotten there. That's when the hair-pulling can really get annoying. Another habit of his that I associate with his porn use is his fixation on me going down on him. Once again, I like doing it once every 24-48 hours or so, but if we are hitting rewind over and over because he hasn't gotten to Nirvana yet, I become less enthusiastic. These are some of the complexities.

We used to be able to laugh about the difficulties he was experiencing. He would use "embarrass myself" as a synonym for lovemaking. That was when he could still perform from start to finish in, say, three tries. Now I'm seeing these escape attempts—escapes from intimacy that include baiting me until I say something that he can use as an excuse not to see me for weeks or months. That's truly painful for me. I feel if I could get him to use a porn filter on his Wifi, it might help.

Sweet Charlotte

Porn doesn’t judge... .he feels like you do... .

... .and let me clarify that statement. He judges himself and projects that onto you as judging him. If you were to say that you were satisfied then in his mind you would be lying.

Do you know if he achieves the end zone when he watches porn on his own?

Regarding empathising or maybe it’s more sympathising with other people, I tend to find my W has a lot more sympathy with associates than with me. I leave early and work reasonably long hours with a 1.5hr each way commute to town. I’ve heard her many times give other people tons of sympathy for this kind of existence but to me I receive little more than contempt for the inconvenience I’ve caused her. In some way I don’t think she believes I deserve her sympathies as maybe it hurts her with abandonment fears when I go! It sucks and it’s annoying but she sees me differently to others.

There can be no doubt that I'm satisfied in the sense that I've reached the end zone, but you're right that he would like me to be more impressed with HIS performance.

Before I began to be concerned about pornography, he told me that he was having trouble consummating the act on his own. This was the last time we were in bed together. We were having a frank discussion because it was the first time that he hadn't been able to complete the act the entire weekend we spent together. In the past, it may have taken him a few tries, but it always happened at least once per weekend visit. So there were all kinds of feelings around this "failure." I felt guilty and inadequate myself for leaving him unsatisfied. And then, voilà, the next time we were supposed to see each other, he didn't show up (accompanied by all sorts of drama, warfare, and pain).

Emotionally why do you think he didn't turn up?

Did you manage to look through the drama and identify why it was he didn't show? It's so so hard to look through personalised attacks and general unassociated drama. I'm racking my brain to think about what you could say to him... .

So... .it's got to be about him, it's got to be about boosting his shattered ego, it's got to be about understanding what he wants to achieve with sex (if it's your pleasure, then he's achieving that even though he doesn't necessarily believe that). Non-judgmental with a lien to focusing on fun. 

The important thing is to remember it's not about his lack of desire for you, he has that I believe. It's not about his lack of desire for sex, he has that as well. My guess is that he needs to change his focus on where his end zone is. Rather than his goal being completion, his goal might be something else... .like getting you to 10 eyerollers.

I don't know how old the two of you are, but as we approached middle age, the "natural" changes which involve the occasional ED became a huge issue. I know that my responses are not the same as a 20 year old, and didn't expect my H to be 20 either. Over the course of a marriage, I expected there would be times where action was affected by other circumstances- pregnancy, kids up at night, work stresses, fatigue. In my mind if things were generally good, then the occasional lapse was not a big deal.

But it was and it had a big impact on our relationship. My H would not talk about it but when he did say a few things he pointed out that, for the man, it's visible and obvious, and embarrassing. If menopause was affecting me, I could still be a participant without it being obvious. I wasn't aware of these issues as he didn't express them at first and so they came out as - refusal to have sex with me ( avoiding a possible embarrassing situation), blaming me, and getting angry at me if I made any requests in bed ( even if they may have been good ones he would take them the wrong way).  I felt rejected and wondered what was going on but if I asked, he would refuse to talk about it.

He got a prescription for those blue pills, but didn't tell me. Then he went from what felt like avoiding me to lets go baby. Let's just say it was noticeable.   so I asked him if he was taking something. What he expected was for me to be happy about the change and assume it was just natural,  but I was upset that he didn't tell me especially after all the hurt feelings between us and refusal to tell me why. It didn't feel like intimacy to be left out of the decision, but he was embarrassed to discuss it.

In my mind, what two people do in bed needs to be consensual. It's always amazed me that two people could be physically intimate yet not have a conversation about what is going on in bed but this has been the case for us too. If my H had suddenly out of the blue started hair pulling or choking, I would be furious. That would not feel like a loving experience to me and I would be upset too.

Why would a guy with ED turn to porn? There is an emotional component to ED and the absence of performance anxiety with porn may even alleviate the ED so things work better. The extreme visual stimulation of porn may also override the ED. I think marital sex is more difficult than porn. It involves investment in the emotional aspect of the relationship. It's easier to turn on the computer. I'm not an advocate for porn, but it is an easily available solution when ED makes sex with another human a situation where performance is affected by performance anxiety and potential embarrassment.

I know you were hurt by his reaction to leave the train but I also think your comment may have triggered some shame in him.

So... .I read the article. 

Can you express again what it was in the article that got you to a feeling of disgust with your husbands sexuality?

Has your husband read the article?  Does your husband agree the article represents his thoughts and sexuality?

FF

I am not disgusted with his sexuality, not the "healthy" part of it. Like many, if not most, women, I find the idea of his masturbating while looking at pornography to be distasteful. As a feminist, my view is that pornography is demeaning towards women. It leads to further objectification. So that's the part of his sexuality that I don't like.

Maybe you missed the part of the article that says that men go into relationships expecting to use porn techniques like choking women, and real women are often not pleased by this.

I sent the article to my uBPDh. I don't know if he read it. He responded, "The abuse will stop!" We are only in touch through email; he has blocked all other means. It's my work email, so there's a limit to what I can express there.

We are a late 50s couple, exact same age. Yes, your observations are correct, and they are sinking in with me gradually. It's a loss and there's a sense of mourning, but without a funeral. And anyway, we're not dead yet.

Now I see how my Lolita reference would trigger a porn user, because a lot of porn centers around young women who look or are made to look underage, and in some cases they are, sadly. Plus the youthfulness factor is a big part of what makes porn such an effective and easy turn-on for men.

Sweet Charlotte

So... .there is a part of his sexuality that disgusts you right?  




Here is the thing... .if something about your partner disgusts you... .it's very likely (almost a certainty) that he picks up on that.  

What if you are incorrect about his sexuality? (the part that disgusts you)  

I did read the article... .there was even part of the article where some sort of medical provider encouraged their patients to watch porn.  How would you feel if it turns out that his porn use (assuming there is porn use) is more tied to that part of the article... .than to the other part of the article?  

And it appears you send him the article and it appears he responds with some sort of desire for "abuse" to stop.  

How would you feel if he started making claims and sending you articles about your sexuality (or parts of it) that were not accurate?  (seriously... .take some time to be empathetic )

Here is my big picture reaction   red-flag to your relationship and some of the issues.

It appears to me there are plenty of issues you both agree on that are "real" for you both to focus on and try to work through.

Both of you also seem to have a tendency to impute very negative things on the other.  He seems to have overdone the Lolita thing (for example) and you seem to be insistent that this article is an accurate portrayal of his sexuality (or some of it) yet he deems the article abusive and wants it to stop.

Uggg... .double and triple uggg.

I would encourage you to stop dumping fuel on a fire and take some time to reflect

Try to be thoughtful about

1.  What do I know.
2.  What is probable
3.  What is possible.

Then stick with number 1 for a long time before dipping back into 2 and 3.  

The downside of being incorrect is massive.

Here's my take on the porn, the new sexual activities that SweetCharlotte assumes her husband had learned from porn, and her husband's porn use, and message that "The abuse will stop!"

SC is entitled to feel disgusted by her husband's porn use as well as thinking that these new activities originated through watching porn.

Her husband is entitled to use porn and it's understandable that he gets gratification through solo pleasure since he cannot count on his "equipment" functioning like it did when he was younger and that is embarrassing to him.

I'm not sure if his message meant that he would no longer do these activities that may seem degrading to SC. Or if he was accusing SC of abusing him for sending him that article and pointing out his "failings"--if that was the way he interpreted it.

Obviously both parties have strong feelings on the topic. I think both of those feelings are valid.

Cat Familiar, he meant the latter of the two, exclusively—that he deems it abusive for me to send him an article about pornography use.

If we are both entitled (me to my disgust with porn use, him to his porn use), where does that leave us as a couple?

Why not have a conversation with him about how HE see's it and his view on his sexuality/sexual choices? And you could let him know about yours.

Then you both could decide, based on what each of you actually think, if you are compatible?

I can't imagine that imputing thoughts, meanings and sexuality choices to one another goes anywhere positive for either of you.

Please step back for a minute.  Remember the feeling as he claimed your words meant things that you never intended.  Can you imagine that he may have similar feelings?





FF

When uBPD H and I married over 20 years ago, I had my disgusting encounter with "men's magazines."

H was living in a house with male roommates and he had a subscription to one.  In his early 20s, H was in the military and had, let just say, "associations" with women in foreign ports of call in rooms lit with red lanterns. 

When we started dating seriously and eventually became engaged, I told him I wanted him to cancel the subscription because I thought it was insulting to me, a wife to be, and women collectively.  (He had daughters, but they were not even in kindergarten yet and he could not relate how this might hurt them.)  I was in my 30s and relatively young and in great shape, but no competition with perfectly posed, airbrushed women barely 21, giving come-hither glances to the camera. Really?  What woman is?

H flew into a rage, taking a stack of the magazines out to the lawn, doused them with lighter fluid and set them burning, screaming, "There!  THERE!  Are you happy now?"  Typical BPD with a reaction out of proportion to the issue at hand.  He should have simply said, "OK, I can understand why these are inappropriate now that I will no longer be a bachelor," and then taken them out to the trash.

I can understand male fantasies, which are usually not like those experienced by women, which usually centre on a romantic component along with a physical element. Think romance novels.  I do not think, though, that most women would like to be seen as an inflatable doll.
 

I'm glad your H made the right decision for your marriage. If my H is entitled to his porn use, though, then I guess it would be useless for me to make the same request. In addition, he lives far away, so I would never know whether he was keeping his word or not. It seems like it's up to me to decide whether I want him in my life as my H, porn use and all (and possibly without sexual intimacy between us, since it would not mean anything to me anymore), or not. There are varying degrees of "staying married"—we could be married but not see each other much, and not sleep together anymore. We could call it an "open marriage," so that I could see other men (but I find open marriages pretty repulsive too). I'm still at an impasse, and still not allowed to dialogue with him to find out what he thinks or feels, because as a pwBPD, he cannot talk seem to talk about this issue (he is not accepting my phone calls or texts). I am still limited to email to communicate with him. He asked me what I wanted for Christmas, and I specified two novels (not romance novels!). I asked him what he wanted, and he answered, "nothing." Yesterday he emailed me a link to a satire of pornography on Youtube in which famous actors and an actress pretend they are in a porn flick. I didn't find it amusing. My interpretation is that he is now trying to make light of the situation.

I'm not sure I could accept being around him now that I know he gets his thrills from looking at other women in pornography, and that he is fine with leaving me alone for weeks/months because he does not desire contact with me. I have an Irish temper, and I'm afraid I would deck him, and then he would not hesitate to have me arrested. I would lose my job, and would not be able to support my children. I know I'm reasoning pretty far ahead here, but that is where I see us going, unfortunately.

Porn may be what is bothering you the most but it isn't the only issue. IMHO, the inability to discuss your sex lives in general and the impact of ED is playing a part. I would be willing to bet your H is really uncomfortable talking about ED and porn. He may have sent the video to alleviate a sense of shame, and possibly even to open the door about a discussion. You felt differently about the video, but it may have been an attempt to communicate.

In addition, not being able to discuss this face to face makes it hard to have this kind of conversation. Discussing emotional topics by text, or e mail, and even phone is prone to interpretation. Is there a way for the two of you to meet at some point to discuss this face to face? Even if you have to wait until another visit, it would probably be better to wait to discuss this topic face to face.

I don't like porn either and agree that it can have a detrimental effect on a marriage unless both partners are into it. I don't think your H is entitled to do porn. However, I think context is something to discuss. Is this an addiction/preference or the result of a man struggling emotionally with ED? If it is the latter, then addressing the ED may help. This is a really tough situation for a man to deal with - it puts his whole self image on the line  but it can be treated medically.

I've got a rather odd perspective on porn because when I was a college student, my now-ex-BPDh and I were traveling. We visited his old buddy who was living in a palatial house in the San Francisco Bay area with his girlfriend. The morning after we arrived, a film company showed up and began setting up lights and cameras. His girlfriend had rented out the house for a porn video shoot. As I ate breakfast, I watched porn being filmed just a few feet away.

If you already think porn objectifies women, what I saw was far worse than what I assume was the finished product. The production I saw seemed targeted at a particular audience--middle aged men--that described the director and the cameraman.

I'm reminded of the metaphor--"Law and sausage are two things you do not want to see being made." (Sorry for the pun, but I'd also add porn to that list.)

Oh and when I said that SC is "entitled" to be disgusted by porn and her husband is "entitled" to use it--I have to say, "entitled" is a poor choice of words. Sorry.

I think we all have free will and things start going south in relationships when we try and control our partner's behavior. So if SC's husband is trying to get SC to change her mind about porn, it's the same as SC trying to make him give up his habit.

I think Notwendy has great wisdom is suggesting putting these types of discussions on hold until face to face AND (I'll add) until the "temperature" of the relationship is such that you can focus on UNDERSTANDING what he means you to understand and he can focus on understanding what you have to say.

So... .he sends you a video.  Why not ask "What do you want me to understand from this video?"  ... .then listen... .ask follow up questions... .about what he means... .not what you want him to mean... .or an article says he means.

There is a relatively simple way to end all the speculation around the issue of porn in this relationship.  A conversation.

FF

Yes, you are right, CatFam, his porn use is a choice. It is a choice he has been making without my knowledge, and now I can't deny it any longer. He always knew that I find this habit disgusting and would not want to be with a man who does it. That's precisely why he hid it for as long as he could. Now that it is out of the bag for good, and as you say, I cannot change his behavior any more than he can change my feelings, I am dealing with a profound sense of loss and betrayal. We continue to be out of direct contact, and he continues without responding to my pleas for a conversation, which I would prefer to have in person with him. I feel so negated as a person that he does not think enough of me to have a dialogue. It's like he is making me feel what it is like to be a man with ED. He can't help the ED; he's been seeking medical help but to no avail, since Viagra doesn't agree with him (he has cardiovascular and G.I. concerns). But he can choose how he approaches the ED. He doesn't have to do it with porn. The porn also gratifies a certain wish to degrade women that is deep-seated with him, and comes out clearly when he speaks of his abusive long-deceased mother. So I have a feeling that even if the ED improved, he would still be hooked on porn.

NotWendy, we do discuss sexual matters in a more or less immediate sense (what we like and don't like, what just happened, etc.) when we are together. However, this is a long-distance r/s, and we have not been together since the current problem flared up. In addition, this has to do with a whole side of himself that my uBPDh had kept hidden, and which also explains why he wanted a long-distance r/s in the first place. I tried to move to his city by applying for a job there, and when I wasn't hired, he called it "a blessing in disguise."

I thought that he/we were dealing with his growing ED okay. I was being patient, and he praised my tactfulness and respect in bed. But we never got to discuss his wish to escape from our sexual contact, because it happened so fast. It was a question of last weekend visit, he couldn't reach orgasm, then he evaded me on the last night to fall asleep early, then he started saying he didn't want to come see me and I said Sorry but okay, then he said actually he was coming and how come I was okay with his not coming (I thought he wasn't feeling well), then it was the texting argument on the train, when he said it was dirty for me to use the word vagina because my daughter might see it, then I said my daughter promised not to read my texts when she occasionally uses my phone (she has her own), then he texted me, "You are a fool," and I said I felt like I was living in "Lolita," and he said he was getting off the train and did so, and blocked me and cut me off. Three days later he wanted to reestablish contact, but the whole ordeal hurt me so much that I wasn't ready to do that. That is how I realized what is really happening and why I felt like I was the Shelley Winters character in Lolita. It wasn't because he is a pedophile per se, but I felt like I was being betrayed for some reason, and that his sexuality was not on the up-and-up. So not being in dialogue with him for a time has helped me to dispel the FOG, and see where I stand and what he has been doing. He never would have admitted this to me, though he was dropping subtle clues all the time.

As I said above to CatFam, I believe his porn use is part struggle with ED and part addiction/compulsion. The first few months of our r/s, we had phone sex regularly. Then it suddenly stopped, and he became much more sexually secretive. He probably went back into porn use at that point; he probably started after his first marriage disintegrated 15 years ago. So I believe it is very ingrained with him, and not only a result of ED.

What do you actually "know" about his porn use?  As he tells you about it or you have observed it.

How much of this is conjecture or connecting dots?

FF

I love this vignette. I know that "conversion therapies" can be problematic, but maybe pornography use/addiction could be treated by having the patient watch a porn shoot like the one you describe. Plus, I'm sure there are many that are worse, involving trafficked "sex slaves" and/or minors. They would see that this is not a victimless vice.

Something for porn aficionados to keep in mind: that is someone's daughter; that is someone's son. Perhaps it could even be your daughter one day, should she get into financial trouble and make a series of poor choices.

I haven't personally seen much porn and I understand about consenting adults engaging in activities of their own choosing. What I've noticed in what I saw is that it was targeted toward men's arousal, not women's. Maybe that's different nowadays.

But what I saw filmed was explicitly directed by the very unattractive middle-aged director, down to every micro movement. The actors were merely robots acting out his fantasy. That was enough to turn me off to porn. But again, maybe it's different--I've heard that women, like Stormy Daniels, are directing it now.

I don't like porn but it seems to be available despite the concerns about it as far as relating to women and relationships. Because it is so available, it becomes something we need to address in a relationship.

Maybe the affects of watching are similar to alcohol. Some people don't drink at all. Some people can have an occasional drink and take it or leave it, and then some people can't resist it and overuse it or become addicted to it and bring ruin to themselves and their families. I don't think alcohol has the same exploitation aspect of porn, but it could be potentially destructive. Making alcohol illegal didn't work and I would expect it wouldn't work for porn either.

My own aversion to porn is due to the degrading aspects but also probably influenced by my own background. When the movie "50 Shades of Gray "came out, I knew I couldn't see it- somehow I knew I would find it to be disturbing. I have not been overtly sexually abused as a child,  but I was emotionally abused, and so reading or watching a situation where someone is being dominated is disturbing to me.  I would find these actions very disturbing if my H did them to me.

It is also possible that a man who was abused/controlled/dominated by parents as a child might find some kind of gratification in these acts.

This is not to judge or vilify anyone who has ever looked at porn- that's probably almost everyone. That would be like vilifying anyone who has a drink. However, just like there are some people who are prone to using alcohol in a destructive manner, there could also be people who do this with porn.  I also bring this up to consider that for some of us, our feelings about porn may also be influenced by our own experiences. Being the recipient of "acting out abuse" may feel revolting to someone who has experienced real -life abuse.

Charlotte- maybe this idea will help you in your discussions with your H. What he did is revolting to you, but he may have taken it as he is revolting to you. There is a lot of emotion in this topic for both of you. I hope there is a way for the two of you to discuss this- whether or not you choose to stay together- for some kind of mutual understanding of what happened. It may take talking in the presence of a therapist.

Notwendy brings up some great points. And like with other addiction patterns, it can become a substitute for intimacy with a partner.

Perhaps similar to individuals who become obsessed with computer gaming, there are some neurological changes that accompany a porn addiction, which could make it even harder to overcome.

The question to me that SweetCharlotte needs to ask herself is: "Is this a deal breaker or not?"

Thank you, Notwendy and CatFam—as you and others have encouraged me to open a dialogue with him about our feelings, I sent him an email asking whether this was his intention in sending me the link to the satirical porn video. In response, he has retreated farther into his shell. Now he does not want any more emails from me. So he does consider my wish to even discuss sexual matters to be an attack on his sense of self and masculinity.

I'm familiar with this pattern from years gone by. He waits until I miss him enough that I will take him back no-questions-asked. That way, I will be his submissive b*#@h again, in bed and out. This must make him feel more manly, and with his ED worsening (though he is receiving medical care for it; it's not always curable since Viagra-type meds disagree with him), he must get meaner to me to get the same effect as before. He does not want a conversation that would delve into his feelings, because he does not discuss those in depth except in anger, which is not productive. And seeing a therapist together is out-of-the-question for him. He does not trust them, and does not think that he needs one. He last saw a mental health professional when he was in his 20s (30 years ago) and had a real psychotic breakdown, failing out of college and losing his full scholarship to a top university, which was a huge blow. He now accuses this therapist not only of not helping him at all, but of stealing his life story by telling it to her daughter, who then published it as a book. I feel that this has got to be an incredible delusion of his.

Since I am tired of this pattern, and the codependency associated with it on my part that always leads back into pain and suffering, I'm going to try to stay NC and see my own therapist. I am just concerned because he has in the past (3.5 years ago, the last time I saw him) counseled me toward staying with my uBPDh because, "let's face it, you love this guy." Sigh.

We go into therapy vulnerable and seeking help. I would be concerned if a T advised me to stay or to leave. What I hope T would do would help me with arriving at my own decision. If you feel your T is encouraging you to stay and you are uncertain, bring that up to him. Another choice is to find a new T, but that takes time, and work and if you feel comfortable with this one, then you can bring up the fact that you feel encouraged to make a choice you don't feel comfortable with.

Your H has a behavior that has worked for him in the past: refusing to address an issue and then, waiting until you are missing him and upset enough to just go back without discussion. This leaves issues unresolved for you. The co-dependency action on your part is to accept him back to relieve your own emotional pain. The "cure" is to be able to manage your hurt feelings on your own- and then, any decision to stay with him as is or the not stay will be done from a position of thinking clearly and not in emotional pain. For your H, if his main relationship tool works - he's going to use it until it works or he figures out it isn't going to work and then has to decide to try something else or not. He's learned that what he does works- so why would he do something different? Your task- if you want a change in this pattern is to change your part in it.

 
Thanks, notwendy: this advice will see me through the difficult passage that lies ahead.

Keep us posted! 

Hi, SC, hope you are doing well. Have you had a chance to see the therapist? Do you think the upcoming holidays will have an affect on your relationship?

Hi, Flourdust,
I'm seeing my T mid-week. That was the soonest he could get me in.
UBPDh is sending me an "impersonal email" every other day—a news link, for example. I'm not responding because last week he told me not to email him anymore.
He still has me blocked on the phone, phone apps, and social media.
I assume that, with the holidays coming, he will gradually get back in touch, staying low profile to avoid in-depth discussion. If I show a wish to discuss feelings, he will retreat. I assume that he would rather visit me for his Christmas break, but only if we can have a "let's pretend nothing happened."
I'm not willing to go back to walking on eggshells. I'm really no good at distinguishing between radical acceptance and walking on eggshells anyway. So, still not sure how I am going to proceed.
Thanks for asking,
SweetCharlotte

I'm glad to hear you've got that appointment coming up. This may be a good question to bounce off your therapist ... .figuring out how to allow re-engagement and under what terms ... .and how to communicate and enforce that effectively. What do you think?

That will be a good idea for next time, flourdust. I didn't get to discuss the r/s in depth this time, because it was my first time back in 3.5 years. I was bringing the T up to date on issues involving my employment (being put on an independent assignment for lower pay, losing my administrative post/stipend to a rival who had been badmouthing & sabotaging me during the couple years that I had it). We will discuss my options on the r/s next week, but for now he stated that, although he is generally in favor of couples working it out, he thought that our estrangement had been going on for a long time, with an impasse that is unlikely to change for the better since my H is not receptive to open communication. The T encouraged me to continue the estrangement and consider formalizing it with a legal separation or divorce. He cautioned me that while I am in NC with my uBPDh, the latter could be accumulating debts for which I would be responsible.

I didn't even get to mention that I stopped drinking a few days ago, which gives me a lot more energy. I had become dependent on throwing back more than a couple each evening to cushion the pain of the loss of my promotion at work. Having grown up abused by an alcoholic mother with a PD or schizophrenia, uBPDh is sensitive to me when I am drinking to excess. On some level I'm sure he could sense that I was rather tipsy when I made the "Lolita reference" that provoked his train ride turn-around and started the current NC period. However, even when I am 100% sober, he does not permit r/s discussions or negotiation of any sort. He is an autocrat in the guise of a victim.

I'm glad you're engaging with your T and bringing him up to speed. These things do take time, so it's good you're planning to continue to meet with him.

And  on cutting back on the drinking before it becomes a problem! Go you!