BPDFamily.com

I bit the bullet yesterday. I did a little looking online and found a therapist who specializes in BPD. She offers free hour-long consultations and had an opening for tomorrow morning so I went ahead and booked it. I don't know if it will be helpful but I feel like it will. I've done therapy before (during a difficult period a decade ago) and really benefited from it. I think just having an unbiased, experienced person to talk to face-to-face will be good for me.

The problem is, my uBPDh is VERY against talk therapy. Thinks it's all a scam. And he has told me several times he would be very upset with me for doing it, feeling I was trashing him and sharing our business with a stranger. So, I feel very torn. I haven't told him about this and I can't think of any reason he would know about it. It may just be the one time. But if it goes on, I feel like I'll probably have to tell him I'm going to start therapy. I know it will NOT go over well and that scares me. Yet, I feel like this is something I really need to do for me so I can try to find ways to make our relationship healthier. Being out of the loop is a big trigger for him. If he does find out and learns I didn't tell him, my lying to him will set him off like a rocket.

Does anyone have experience with this? Or advice on how to handle it?

i do feel that not making that choice, out of fear of his reaction, would be to walk on eggshells. it isnt going against your word, or some agreement between the two of you. still, its a difficult choice to make, no doubt.

likewise, i agree its not something you want to hide or be secretive about. privacy is one thing, secrecy hurts relationships.


are you leaning more toward mentioning it in passing, or having a deeper talk about it?

Right now, I'm thinking that I go to the consultation without saying anything. If I think it's something I want to continue, I'll tell him in a calmer moment for a deeper discussion.

If he's not dysregulating tonight, I'll mention the consult. If not, and if it goes nowhere, I'll just keep it to myself. I know secrecy is bad and it has gotten me in trouble before, but if he's in a mood, I'm too tired at this point to open myself up to what could be a major episode.

I kept my therapy a secret from my wife for several months, but she eventually found out.  She reacted poorly.  But while the secrecy didn't help, I think even if I'd been open about it she would still have exerted a tremendous amount of pressure on me to stop.

I think you're on the right track; telling him eventually, but I'd be willing to fudge on the timing for two reasons -- first, it may go nowhere, and second, you're in a vulnerable place trying to start therapy and you're more likely to be able to succeed in starting and keeping therapy if you've got a good bond with your therapist before you tell him.

But perhaps my inclination to say do therapy for two months or so to get a bond with your therapist and then tell him is not the best way.  I know that sometimes I used secrecy as a shortcut for my inability to maintain boundaries with my wife.  What do you think?  Are you inclined to tell him as soon as you decide to do therapy regularly?  That seems like a safe bet integrity-wise.

One thing I'm sure of is that thinking through how to tell him, what tools to use, etc. is something that you could do with us here, and we can support you as you cope with any pushback from him.

RC

i think not mentioning the consult is reasonable... .its not exactly the same, but if you were considering divorce and consulted an attorney to see about options, it probably wouldnt be wise or necessary to mention. but if you were going to act on an option, obviously it would come up. therapy is a big life change, of the sort that a husband or even long term boyfriend would need to know, like a doctor.


i like this approach, with an emphasis on you, your health, your life. if he feels like youre going there to talk about him, you can imagine where it will go.

what do you think?

Radcliff and Once, that's kind of what I was thinking. My going will upset him. My keeping it a secret will upset him. Lying and secrecy are big triggers for him. So, I'd be more inclined to tell him -- once I knew it was something I wanted to pursue. I just won't mention the initial consult. I'll see how it goes this morning, then think about it and brainstorm a bit here. A lot of his initial response will depend on his mood. He may be receptive. But even if he accepts it, I have a feeling it will be a bone of contention in a dysregulation.

I'm just starting to feel scared. Yesterday afternoon he was in a pouty mood. Then, it went away and he was his old self. It reminded me of why I love him and would hate to lose him.

I sometimes feel so guilty. He's done so much for me. Loved me, supported me in so many ways. Yet I haven't made him feel loved and supported in return. I feel like that must be my fault. A deficiency.

Yet I think about some of the things that have happened and I feel like he's emotionally and verbally abusive. I remember him yelling at me that it's all my fault. That I'm an idiot. Making me agree with him. Telling me to write a list of all the ways I'd screwed up and failed him. I felt awful and meekly went along. I've been stronger lately. But when I reflect, it scares me that I didn't see, in the moment, what was happening.

I love him like crazy and believe he's a good man. Yet I fear I may be walking down a road I've heard about many times. I'm afraid I'll get so far along I won't be able to see the way out.

I had my therapy appointment and I think it went really well. She was easy to talk to, seemed knowledgeable and was sympathetic. A lot of things she said were things that meshed well with things I've read here and in SWoE. Anyway, she agreed with me that it's very, very likely he has BPD.

She said the best way for things to get better would be for him to get therapy himself -- gave me a couple of names and numbers (she doesn't take his insurance and only sees women). Just in case I can convince him to do it.

She also told me that she can help give me tools to use and advice and support. But that I need to really do some soul searching and lay out some boundaries on what I will tolerate, for how long, where my lines in the sand are. Things y'all have mentioned before.

The violent outbursts (which have lessened lately) and the verbal abuse were things she was concerned about. I got the impression that she thinks it's very possible it will escalate and I should have some sort of plan in place.

So. A lot of thinking to do.

Hi Ozzie.  I am glad your session went well and you were comfortable with her.  That is a big thing when it comes to being able to get through therapy.

Are you aware that we have an article on setting up a safety plan?  It is true that sometimes the aggression can escalate and the best time to prepare for that is before it starts happening.  An escalation is aggression is not just about the frequency of the events but the severity.  I say that out of an abundance of caution. 

Did you set up another appointment?

I didn't set one up -- yet. I need to decide if I want to continue. I feel like I want to but at the same time, I know if I do I'll have to tell him and I know he won't like it. It will be a difficult conversation and I have to mentally prepare for that.

I'll check out the article on safety plans, thanks!

this is wise advice. it is possible/likely given what youve shared about not only his thoughts on therapy, but his style in general, that he would see therapy as a betrayal. understanding that perspective is one thing (its far from reasonable but not purely irrational) but the fallout may be hard to manage.

sometimes the healthy decisions for ourselves have consequences that are very difficult. with a strong support system, you can navigate.

any thoughts as to whether you intend to follow up/continue?

I would really like to. I just need to really figure out how to handle it.

And I need to do some very hard thinking about boundaries and what I need and want. I may need some time apart to do that but I don't know how to manage that without provoking a crisis. I may have an opportunity a month from now but that's a ways away at this point.

Let me add an alternative opinion here.  I don't think you have to tell him about the therapist.  Agreed, there's a decent chance he'll find out eventually, so it may be best to tell him for the reasons we discussed.  But I believe there are times when someone may not want to tell their partner about a therapist.  For example, if someone is working through issues of childhood abuse, and they aren't ready to tell their partner, I'd believe they should still feel free to go to therapy.  Another example is domestic violence.  Abusers feel a need to control their partners, and are fearful of any support their partner may receive, and often systematically try to isolate the survivor from sources of support (friends, family, therapist, etc.).

It sounds like you liked the therapist?  It seems like she is aware of BPD, and getting you oriented towards setting boundaries, which is exactly where you need to go if you are in an abusive relationship.  Her support could be pivotal for you.  Only you can make the decision, but my hope is for you to be able to obtain all the support you need.

When I was struggling to understand what was going on in my marriage, I wasn't sure what was abuse and what was simply unhealthy.  I found this very useful graphic called the  Relationship Spectrum (http://www.thehotline.org/healthy-relationships/relationship-spectrum/) that illustrates the differences between healthy, unhealthy, and abusive behavior.  Take a look.  What things in your relationship fall in the "unhealthy" column?   What things in your relationship fall in the "abuse" column?

RC
 

I see things in our relationship that fall under unhealthy and under abusive -- though that's really when he's dysregulating. It's very complicated, as I'm sure most relationships are. And some unhealthy behaviors are ones I engage in myself. I can readily admit that. I share some blame.

I don't want to blame everything on his BPD but honestly, a lot of my unhealthy behaviors come as a reaction to him. Hiding things for fear of setting him off, etc.

Last night he was talking about he's been feeling more and more depressed and seemed more open to the idea of therapy. I told him how there are different types and another type (like DBT may work). I didn't mention BPD but was tempted. He said he wishes someone could just tell him why he is a certain way. Anyway, if he's in that open mind again, I may gently broach the subject -- carefully and sensitively.

For me, looking at that list was a great help in validating that I should not be experiencing what I was experiencing and I needed to start to protect myself from those behaviors.  I felt conflicted about identifying my wife as an abuser, because I loved her and understood that she had a mental illness, and I've met others who felt the same way.  The way to think that helped me is that it doesn't matter whether we give a label to the person who's doing the abusive things.  What matters is the impact on us.  We need to figure out how to protect ourselves from the abuse with things like boundaries.  (This doesn't mean that we ought to expect to become relationship wizards who can fix any situation; sometimes leaving for a few minutes, a few hours, or longer is necessary if emotional or physical safety are an issue).  When I came here, I was so unable to establish boundaries and so weakened and frazzled by my situation, it felt like the elders here were speaking Greek to me.  That was about 18 months ago.  It takes time to make changes, and honestly it's scary at times, but at some point the fear of allowing things to continue as they are eclipses the fear of finding a healthier path.


This is the part that raised my concern to a more serious level.  Without support and a healthy response to improve things, incidents like this will continue to harm you and weaken your remaining defenses and sense of self.


The fact that you are aware of this danger is a huge asset to you.  Awareness is the first step.  Action is the next.  The most critical thing is for you to not become isolated.  You need sources of support outside of the relationship.  Can you list five sources of support, counting us here as one?  All of the sources need not be fully "in the know" about what is going on -- some could be a friend or a social or activity group that gives you strength and energy.

RC

p.s.  That's great that he may be open to getting some help.  I would definitely not introduce the topic of BPD to him.  To us, having an explanation is a relief, but pwBPD so often feel shamed and react badly to partners mentioning it that we never recommend it.  Mentioning DBT is fine if you think you have an opening.  You can even emphasize that it's skills training and de-emphasize the therapy aspect of it.  I think you would find it valuable to look at this page on how to get a borderline into therapy (https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy).

Thank you for the advice. I held off on mentioning BPD to him -- not sure how he'd respond. The fact that he was talking about how he wished he had an answer for why he is this way was what tempted me. And the therapist I saw said some people feel relief with diagnosis. I'll keep encouraging DBT. I have a couple of names of therapists who specialize in it.

I do have support. Aside from this board, I have my family (large), my best friend from high school (a guy, so that's sometimes a source of conflict, though he's asexual and lives 3 hours away),my former boss and her husband (who have said I can stay with them any time). There's also my church but I have to be careful there since he works there. I couldn't go to clergy but other members, yes.

It is hard. In some ways he's been so good to me and I know he loves me. But I do have to protect myself.

I'm glad you have support!  That is a big protective factor for you.  Keep investing to keep those relationships active so you don't get isolated.

Yes, some people feel relief with diagnosis, but many (most?) don't so better to let someone like a therapist take that risk than you.  I think just learning that other people have these challenges and that a special type of skills training has been developed to allow them to take charge of things and make improvements might bring some relief.

With respect to improving your own circumstances, for what situation would you most like to have better boundaries?  What is causing you the most pain, where if you could figure out a way to protect yourself it would give you the biggest payback in terms of peace of mind, reducing wear and tear on you, etc.?

RC

I'll definitely focus on the DBT. Bringing up BPD is just too risky, I think. If he does go to a therapist and she does diagnose it, I'll just need to be careful and keep my mouth shut. Again, if he thinks I knew it was a possibility and said nothing, it will trigger him big-time.

It's very hard for me to figure out which is the most painful. There are so many.
1) His issues with my family. It's at a point where, really, there's nothing they can do right. Some of them (two of my sisters) are constantly in the black. He "hates" them. Always will. My parents, though, he goes back and forth on. One minute he likes them just fine. The next, they'll do or say something that triggers him and brings up every previous slight -- perceived or imagined -- from the last three years. Or before. If anything even hints at reminding him of his ex-wife's family, he goes through the roof.
We're working on a family Christmas get-together for this weekend since we'll be gone the week of the holiday. We made the suggestion and are coming up with plans (drinks and snacks and gifts at our place, then go out for pizza). Well, other than the date, we hadn't communicated any other plans to the family yet and this morning, my mom suggested a pizza place (not a "Let's go here" but "One place that might be fun is XXX"). Now he's been set off because my mom's trying to run everything and making all the decisions and we don't get any say. I know we haven't let anyone know what we're thinking so why wouldn't they feel like sharing an idea they had -- and, actually, the place she suggested was one we were considering. Also, it was worded as throwing out an idea they'd had, not as a mandate at all. I suggested sending out an email to say "Here's what we're thinking and we'll let you know when we've got it set." But that's not good enough. We shouldn't have to do that. They should just let us plan it. We shouldn't have even suggested this. Let's just cancel the whole thing. If you want to see them, fine, but Stepson and I aren't going to be there.
He says I always side with my family and never stand up for him. Not true. I've confronted members of my family when there's been a problem. I've agreed with him when he's made a fair criticism. Sometimes I have stood up for them, yes, when I can tell there's been a misunderstanding or miscommunication. But lately I've just kept my mouth shut. I've supported his decision to not attend some functions and have skipped them myself. Yet I now find out he's telling people that I always choose my family and put them first. And that those people are telling him "That's really weird. She shouldn't do that. It's not right."

2) If I have any opinion that's different from his, it can set him off. I was against a casino issue on the ballot of the last election. I don't have any moral problem with gambling, really. I just didn't like the way the thing was worded or handled. He railed against me for three hours for voting against him since he occasionally likes to bet at the horse track (no, he doesn't have a problem). If I'd known he'd react that way, I wouldn't have told him (or wouldn't have told the truth) when he asked how I voted.
He hates Elvis Presley. I like him just fine. Not my favorite but I have a few songs on my phone. I love Bing Crosby. He can't stand him. Most people would, I think just shrug or joke about it or something. With him, it becomes a huge drama.

3) Anything I do can annoy him. He's almost constantly critical these days. It's often said gently and without any kind of anger or annoyance behind it, yet it gets to me. I'll find some possible new recipes. He'll look at them and say "None of those looked good to me at all. Some of them were disgusting. I know they looked good to you but they're not my thing." Fine. That's OK. But then he'll go off into how we never cook anything new and just do the same old stuff. Yet he won't actually look for recipes himself.
Or I made up the bed this morning, which we don't usually do, but I had a spare few minutes. He got annoyed that I was being too finicky and being "just like" his mother.

4) Accusing me of things that are unfair or untrue. For instance: "I like to get appetizers at restaurants. But we can never do that when it's just us because you're the food police." I like appetizers too. I don't usually suggest it and if he asks "Do you need one?" I'll usually say no because, no, I don't "need" one, but I'll say "That could be good, though. What looks good to you?"
He'll say we can't go out to eat often because he knows I get bothered by that. I don't. I've never once said anything about the frequency of eating out. I love restaurants.
I'm a journalist and am paid by the hour. It's ok to be a little under, but I know I don't make a lot of money (something he points out) and I want to maximize it. Also, while I may not get paid much, I take pride in my work and in being a good, responsible employee. My need to work a full 40-hour week and to be there for meetings and interviews can annoy him. He's the boss at his place of employment and is salaried. Outside of meetings, he can pretty much set his own schedule and do what he wants.
Last week he complained that he'd been doing all this Christmas shopping for his son by himself. I pointed out that he was going midday, when I was at work (and dealing with a very busy week) and couldn't go. If he waited until 3:30 or so, I could go with him and help, which I really want to do. But, no, that's a sign I put work first. I'm not dedicated enough to my stepson and don't care about him. He's the only one who cares about him. If I didn't want to be a stepmother, I shouldn't have married him in the first place. That's an actual accusation he threw at me.
He'll decide on things at times when I can't go, then blame me for not being there and for having to do things all by himself.
Maybe I'm sending off some unconscious signals through body language. I don't know. But I'm not even thinking the things he accuses me of so it's enough to drive me nuts.

5) I do a lot to help him. I'll pick up S from school. In the mornings when we have him, I'll fix his breakfast and lunch while H is getting ready in the bathroom. I'll help with homework. I do all the laundry and grocery shopping. Yet, when he's in a mood, it's all about how he has to do everything and I don't help him at all, which just makes his stress level go up.

Sorry. I'm venting now.

Anyway, at the moment, it's hard for me to target one thing that's really predominant. There are so many issues. I'm sure there's some overarching issue that could cover all or most of these, but I'm a little frazzled.

Maybe the answer is respect. I'm coming to a place where I feel like I need to stop catering to him and shifting to suit him. Maybe I need to do what I need to/want to do and let the chips fall where they may. Be kind and respectful and understanding, but still live my life. Yesterday, I had to do some solo Christmas shopping. I ate lunch by myself at a place he doesn't like. I'm not a huge fan either but it wasn't super crowded in the post-church melee. It was a nice lunch. The people who waited on me were incredibly sweet. It just made me feel so happy and warm inside. Then it made me sad for him. I see this. I see the happy people. I see the friendliness. I see the love and good intentions. He doesn't. And I think that's why he's miserable. Or maybe he doesn't see it because he's miserable. Chicken. Egg.

Bingo! 

Thanks for taking the time to give us so much detail about what you are experiencing.  I'm sure many other members will read that and feel like kindred spirits.  The combined load of all that we experience can be very heavy.  How we interpret it and how we react can make a huge difference, though.

One of the central issues here is ownership and boundaries.  What you own and what he owns.

* Own what you should own.
* Let go of what you don't own.
* Don't take on something that he should own.
* If he tries to own something of yours, enforce a boundary.

Doing all of these things will take practice and habit changes, but over time it can make a huge reduction in conflict and stress, and help you be happier.

Let's look at voting for example.  You happen to let slip that you had a position that disagreed with his.  How did it go when he was giving you a hard time for three hours?  Were you doing other things at the same time?  Sitting there and listening for three hours?  Did you respond to him and try to convince him?  Please give us a little more detail.  Of course, you already know that each of you owns your vote and he shouldn't be giving you a hard time about it, but we can get you to a place where you can confidently enforce that boundary with respect while incurring less damage to yourself.

RC

I responded and tried to explain my position. (I felt like the measure should have been addressed in the counties in question first before the whole state getting to vote on it. Also, I felt like, long-term, these casino measures don't always work out for the towns in question.) Not smart and not productive. It just wasted more time because he still doesn't believe that I'm not a conservative, holier-than-thou type who looks down on gambling. Other than that, yes, I was pretty much just sitting there and taking it. I tried to validate his feelings "I can see why that would bother you. I know you like going to the horse races." He never really tipped over into full-blown rage and he did calm down.

I know this triggered his annoyance with me, my family and my hometown. He frequently accuses me of being conservative. I'm really not. Some of my family members are, but then they're also not the stereotype he has in mind either. It's complicated (pet phrase of his: "I don't do complicated."). My hometown is in one of the counties involved and, yes, that played a part in my decision. I love my hometown. No desire to ever live there again, but I have great memories and love the people. He likes to make "jokes." Also, my best friend from high school (whom I mentioned before -- an asexual guy who lives some distance away so we rarely see each other) posted negatively about the issue on Facebook. H saw it but I didn't so I had no idea how he felt about it. My voting the same as my friend probably triggered his jealousy.

I need to find ways to just extricate from the situation when he gets like that. If I just got up and left the room, it would likely bring on a very strong reaction. Maybe saying something like "Wow. I can see you feel very strongly about this. I'll need to think about it some. Let's talk about it later."

Well, therapy is a moot point now. I discovered that it's not considered preventive care on my current plan (it was on my old one) and I have a very high-deductible plan. So, any visits would be completely out-of-pocket. H makes plenty of money, but it's been a stress for him this year. I can't afford to cover that and other things on my salary and if he's against something, I can't in good conscience insist on him paying for something "non-essential" that he doesn't believe in.

Maybe I can find some solution but, for now, I'll have to rely on this board alone.

Ozzie,

I know you said you have a place you can stay but do you have transportation and an emergency bag packed?

I'm not trying to alarm you, I simply want you safe.  Having a plan is important.  I am going to send you info just in case but have you talked with people at a local DV shelter?  Again, I am saying this in an abundance of caution.

Here is a link Safety First (https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety_first.pdf) which can help you formulate a plan.

We also have an assessment that you may want to do.  Just for information for yourself:  MOSAIC threat assessment https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=304172  Give yourself time to take it.  I've taken it as have many others.  Let us know how it goes please.

There are alternatives.  Years ago I used Catholic Charities.  It doesn't matter about your religious beliefs, they want to try and help.  They can give you a reduced schedule on rates and also allow you to make payments.  They may not have someone that would be specific to your situation but at least it would give you someone to talk to outside of this group.  I don't know of any other groups that do this but I'm sure that they are out there if you look for them.

Thank you! I'll look into that.

That might have been a good thing to say.  Variations on that theme have come in very handy for many members.

How did you feel during the three hour session?  Did you feel like you were working hard to be patient and understanding, but feeling at least somewhat safe and confident in how you were coping?  Or did you feel threatened and miserable?  I've had three hour sessions with my wife where I thought, "Wow, that was hard work, but I kept my cool, validated, and she calmed down," and other three hour sessions that were beyond terrible, clearly abusive, and still weigh on me long afterward.  There's no right answer here, no way you *should* have felt -- the question is just aimed at understanding how much heat was coming your way and the impact on you.  Sometimes we just stuff our feelings.  If you're aware of how you felt, you can gauge whether or not your protections are adequate.

The MOSAIC test that Harri recommended is a good one.  Please let us know your score.

Domestic violence agencies may have good options on counseling.  One excellent choice might be joining a survivor's support group.  It would probably be free, and you'd be able to compare experiences with other women, which could be very helpful.  Physical violence is often a very small part of what goes on in abusive relationships, so verbal abuse and other non-physical things are likely to be talked about a lot.

Another resource that would be good is the book, Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft.

RC

During the 3 hours, I felt frustrated, miserable, threatened but also managed to stay calm and he never tipped over into violence or yelling. I felt scattered, too. I could tell he was "not there" and he was jumping from one topic to another, making statements that didn't really make sense or connections that weren't there. It scared me because it seemed like he was out of his mind. I was scrambling trying to stay with him -- or ahead of him -- and think of what my next move should be. My main goal was to keep him from losing it completely and to avoid saying or doing anything that would do major harm. That's why I ended up going back to our room and bed. I knew if I didn't, it would just keep it going -- or instigate something even worse.

I took the MOSAIC threat assessment test. The score was a 6 on the 1-10 scale. Said my situation is similar to situations that have escalated.

I have thought about domestic violence agencies. At the moment, I'm making an appointment to see a therapist who specializes in DV. My deductible has been met for the year so until Jan. 1, I can go and not pay anything. I'm hoping she can give me some advice and direction.

Will keep you all posted. I really appreciate everyone's care and support.

OK, it sounds like it was somewhere in between the two extremes of getting run over for three hours and handling it with no sweat.  You were able to contain things, but it sounds like it was exhausting.  So, you eventually withdrew, and seemed to do it without drama, is that correct?  If you had it to do over again, do you think you could have found an opportunity to retreat without drama in less than three hours?  If you were put in the exact same situation again, and he did the exact same things, how far into the conversation would might your first good exit point be?  The idea being... .with practice we can get better at lessening our exposure to situations like this.

RC

Honestly, I'm not sure it would have made a difference if I had left earlier. I could tell what was happening as soon as it started. After a few minutes, I tried to "leave" the conversation by saying I was tired and we could talk about it tomorrow because obviously it was bothering him. He got mad at that and I got the "Oh, YOU'RE tired. See? It's all about you. You don't care about anybody else."

It wasn't too long into it that I tried to leave the room. Most of the conversation went on after I'd tried to remove myself. Things didn't calm down until he'd kind of run himself out.

Ozzie101,

Hey... .can you bring this up with the therapist that you have visited.  Perhaps pay for another visit or two. 

1.  That therapist may be able to give you a sliding scale or work something out

or

2  That therapist may have a referral to someone with lower cost

This board will be a big help to you and luckily you seem to be at an earlier stage of a BPDish relationship where habits are still being formed, so there is more chance of changing them or establishing healthy patterns.

That being said, this stuff is incredibly difficult.  Especially the piece of this where you are introspective about YOUR stuff.  Hard questions that need to be explored

Such as... .

What is it about you that would lead you to get a letter from your husband insisting that you had been molested by your family, that you were in denial and that you should "look it up" and apparently do something about it and then that seems to have gone nowhere... .except in your desk?

Here is the thing... .it's not about keeping him happy so he doesn't dysregulate  How has that worked out so far?

Since we talked about the "molestation letter" I've been trying to think about some good advice.  What I ended up thinking about are some very important life principles. 

Generally speaking... .problems that stay hidden... .especially if the point of keeping things hidden is to keep someone "happy" or to make sure "they don't get mad... "... .those problems get worse AND the person usually isn't "happy".

He wanted you to "do something" about/with the letter... .so why not do it?  Perhaps your insurance will cover a visit to your General Practitioner.  Show him the letter and ask for their opinion about where to go to sort that out.  Then do that.  Invite your husband along for this journey... .but do it regardless of what he decides.

This will provide "light" on a situation and "accountability" with professionals looking into this.

After all... .why would it upset your husband that you accepted his letter and did something about it... .  Wouldn't he want you to get better and heal from what has been done to you?

This is hard stuff... .putting off facing hard stuff rarely makes it easier.

Best to you...    

FF

Thank you, formflier. I can ask the therapist about that.

And good point about the keeping him happy. That is what I've been trying to do (most of the time) and it doesn't work. At all.

I told him that I did look that stuff up. That from what I read, hidden memories don't really work that way. And that, no, I didn't think things lined up. I told him what I'd found out. My former therapist, whom I saw for years, never even mentioned that as a possibility. And I would have been happy to take H to talk to him but, unfortunately, he passed away this summer. I told the new therapist about the molestation accusations and the letter. She seemed to be of the opinion that that was a major dysregulation and a typical attempt to separate me from people he saw as a threat.

I do know the personality traits that led him to suggest it.
1) I'm not as adventurous sexually as he is and had not had much experience at all before we met. That was more situational than anything else. I didn't really have opportunities for it. I've always had a natural tendency to be shy and reclusive, which makes it hard to meet people. That's changed a lot as I've gotten older and more confident, but still... .He sees it as repressed. Even though I do enjoy sex and we've had a very happy sex life (until more recently, when his frequent dysregulations have kind of put a damper on things and made me less in the mood).

2) I'm a very reserved, even-keeled person. That can come across as unemotional or repressed but I definitely feel emotions. I'm just not someone who expresses them overtly or goes over the top. And I tend to approach things in a rational way, not an emotional one.

3) I am close to my family. I'm attached to them. I'm perfectly capable of functioning outside their sphere and I don't see them all that often, despite living in the same city as some, but I still love and care for them and know they do so for me. I enjoy spending time with them when I have the chance. H interprets that as being tied to the apron strings.

4) I have been, in some ways, secretive and controlling. That's been more recent and has been a reaction to his rages -- trying to keep him from dysregulating. Again, not helpful and not working. I've been pulling back from that.

I'm aware that I have work to do. Some of our problems are caused by me and my handling of things. That's what I've been trying to fix. I listen to him and his complaints and try to fix what I can and what is my responsibility. The problem is, his reactions are extreme and he'll blame me for things or ascribe motives to me that aren't there.

Or some of his criticisms will be of things I don't want to change. He gets very frustrated and really dislikes dealing with elderly people. I've spent a lot of time around older people and have a good rapport with them. I enjoy their company and hearing their stories. That drives him crazy.

When there's a problem, I like to approach it calmly and respectfully and hear the other person's side, then come to a solution. He thinks anything but going in guns blazing is rolling over and letting people walk all over you.

He's complained many times that he's had to make all the changes in this relationship. He's had to adapt. I haven't had to. That's so untrue I didn't even know how to start on that one. I'm the one who moved into someone else's home and routine, took on a stepchild and two dogs, adjusted to living with four other living beings after years of living alone, changed my eating and sleeping schedules and habits to fit in more with his. The list goes on. But I know that's how he sees it and arguing will not help there.

The other night, during a perfectly calm night -- no dysregulation -- he talked about how he's been depressed lately. He wondered if the fact that I tend to be more calm and flat and "just there" (all his words) was bringing him down. I didn't know what exactly to say to that, other than that, yes, I believed we were often affected by the mood of those around us. I'm not a very excitable person. Never have been. I can work on letting the outside reflect the inside more, but I'm never going to be volatile or bubbly or an extreme personality. The new therapist said my even-keeled nature was probably part of what attracted him in the first place. It's typical with BPD.

Some of this just comes down to fundamental differences. I feel like in a healthy relationship, you can have differences but can respect that in each other, support each other's weaknesses with your strengths, admire their strengths.

Sometimes it feels like with his criticisms and demands, he's trying to make me more like him.

I'm not perfect. I've made a lot of mistakes and I know that I have some personality quirks myself that are unhealthy or unhelpful. I don't like to upset people. I don't like people to be angry with me. I like to make people happy. Thing is, I can't make people happy. I can't make him happy. But those things I can do, I want to do.

 red-flag

What is the difference in "secretive and controlling" and "private and thoughtful"?

And... .by "controlling"... .are you trying to control what you do... .or he does?


Lots of good explanation about what YOU have done about the letter in the past.  I see lots of work on your part to ease his discomfort and handle the problem he "tossed in your lap".

Since he is so concerned about your alleged sexual molestation history, why not thank him for his concern, and invite him in to explain his position to your therapist, so she can make sure she does the proper work with you.  For the benefit of your health.

Then... after inviting him... stop discussing such matters outside of therapy.  STOP.

It will be uncomfortable for him and he will sort through that, with or without therapy.  BUT WITHOUT YOUR "HELP". 

Do you see how in the "big picture" he "brings you things" and you jump all over them and explain all these things to try and "solve" or "help"... .yet... .oddly... .he gets "worse"?

FF

I guess secretive and controlling are his words. He said elsewhere in the letter that other women he'd been with had been manipulative and controlling like I was being. Yet I don't really see myself that way. I do tend to keep some things private. I would expect the same from him. He's said before regarding a friend of mine, "How would you feel if I texted my friends and you didn't know what I was saying?" It wouldn't bother me in the least. He has a right to relationships with his friends and I trust him. He didn't believe me that I wouldn't be bothered. He texts with his sister multiple times a day. I don't know what they text about. My sisters and I text maybe once a week -- if that. Yet it bothers him that I may text with my sisters without him being in the loop.

I don't recall ever trying to control what he does. I have done things to try to make things easier for him and smooth out rough edges with family or with myself. That could be controlling in a way, I suppose. But I don't try to manipulate him or exert control over him. More over myself and situations where I know he'll be triggered.

And, yes, I see a pattern. I try to fix. It doesn't help. I need to stop trying to fix. I guess where it's hard is that he blames me for a lot of the problems and the way he spins it, I can see where he's coming from. And therefore, if it's my fault, then I should be the one to fix it. To him, if I don't fix it, then it's a sign that I'm self-centered and don't care about him. I hate for him (or anyone) to think that way, so I bend over backwards to accommodate.

But you're right. It doesn't work.

We have a meeting tonight with his psychiatrist and he's planning to bring up the idea of anger management therapy. Hopefully that will go somewhere and will at least be a step in the right direction. He's still very resistant to couples or individual therapy for either one of us. But maybe approaching it in a different way -- his concern for my mental health, etc. -- would be the way to go. I tried that the other night and it didn't go over well but I may be able to come at it in a different way.

Wait... what?  All stop.

He has a psychiatrist, yet you are not allowed to have a therapist?

I'm all kinda confused here.

Please take a COPY of the letter to the psychiatrist meeting.  Shine light on what is actually happening in your relationship.  Doctors can't treat what they don't know.

Please explain more about his views on therapists... .and Psychiatrists... I'm having trouble connecting the dots.

FF

Yes. He's been seeing a psychiatrist (well, several) for a number of years now. He's gone through quite a few. That's been to treat anxiety and depression.

He has tried talk therapy before but he says it hasn't worked for him. He doesn't have the time or patience to "answer a lot of questions." Plus, he feels like they do nothing but pry and then get people hooked on them so they keep going for years with no results but fatter pockets for the therapist. He doesn't like spilling private stuff to someone -- or for me to do that either.

He'd prefer to take a pill that will fix the anxiety and depression and psychiatrists these days (at least the ones he sees) are almost purely med management.

That said, he doesn't fully trust psychiatrists either. He's been on many different drugs over the last few years with mixed results. And he's gone through several doctors. He starts out liking them, then when they can't fix him, he gets frustrated and goes to someone else.

The last doctor prescribed a drug that actually worked but also caused weight gain, despite H making it clear (I was there) that he will not take anything that could cause weight gain. He still bears a lot of hatred for that doctor. That whole situation was part of what triggered his current state.

Anyway, he's occasionally mentioned taking a break from psychiatrists since nothing works and he's tired of being a guinea pig but he keeps going back in hopes of finding the right one.

It's only been since his last meeting (two months ago) that I've really come to see what could be going on with him. And if I'm right, that's a pretty good explanation for why therapy and drugs haven't completely worked for him. For therapy, he needs someone who specializes in BPD.

I haven't mentioned BPD to him (was advised against it) but I have mentioned DBT to him in one of his more receptive moments and plan to continue to encourage him to consider that.

I don't feel like I can take a copy of the letter. Neither of us has mentioned it in a long time and he would see that as a betrayal and, under the circumstances, I wouldn't blame him. But I do plan to be very honest about what I've witnessed and experienced from him lately -- the rages, the long conversations, the irrationality.

If you had test results showing a heart patient had a bad heart, how would it be a betrayal to show that to a heart doctor, that could do something about it?

If you don't feel like taking the letter, I can't imagine it would be helpful to not mention general claims of molestation.

Remember... .stick with the principles.  Is it better or worse to shine light on a problem.  Notice I didn't say anything about peoples feelings.

FF

True. I need to give that some thought.

I think the thing I struggle with with this is how to address these problems honestly while not betraying him. If I bring things up to the doctor without also talking to him about it, that would be blindsiding. It's not just a matter of feelings. If I find I can mention the molestation claims, I do plan to. But, if I betray him, doesn't that help to destroy what trust we do have?

I have been honest with him about his anger and about the things he says and his reactions to things. And in his "normal" moments, he's aware of them too. He's made comments about how he's afraid that his behavior will someday drive me away.

When I bring things up when he's not in the right frame of mind, then these things get twisted around so they're my fault and he's just responding to me, my selfishness, etc.

My goal is to get him to seek help and we seem to be making some progress in that direction. If he feels I've betrayed him and he stops trusting me, will all that be destroyed? I'm just afraid of doing it the wrong way and ending up in worse shape than I'm in now.

Hi Ozzie,
I've been following along on your posts and I see a lot of similarities between your situation and my own. Not just in how you describe the other person, but also with your own ways of thinking about it, approaching it, etc. I think my own relationship is a little further down a not-very-good road than yours, but I see a lot of the same patterns.

I definitely get where you're coming from on this particular worry about not betraying your partner in a therapy setting. In my own experience, that is something to worry about. My wife has often felt "attacked" or "blindsided" by me in a therapy setting, and this has never helped anything. Usually she stops going to the therapist, and then nobody's being helped. There is always a lot *I* want to bring up and say, but if she's not prepared for that, or sees it as me "throwing her under the bus," only bad things happen as a result.

My wife has now been seeing a T for about six months, which is the longest she's seen any one person. I think the key was focusing on exactly what I wanted to happen and trying not to do anything to derail that. My goal was the same as yours--I wanted her to get help. So in the sessions we've had together, I don't say much. I am careful about what I do say. It is not a "safe place" for me, because I know anything I say can and will be used against me. That's fine. For now. My goal is for my wife to keep seeing a professional, and at the moment, the best chance of that is to not bring up lots of things that I think should probably be discussed.

This is a long-term process. We're dealing with someone who has a lifetime of distorted thinking patterns and maladaptive coping strategies. I can hold off on "getting it all on the table" if it means she can build some trust with the T, not feel betrayed by me, and start working on things at a pace she can handle. It's not the pace I want, but it's better than standing still or moving backwards.

That's all just to say I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to be cautious about what you bring up, or about how much you say to the T or P. It's good to shine light on a problem, but if someone's been in a dark room for a long time and comes out into the bright sunlight, they might not be able to see anything.

Thank you, stolencrumbs. Sounds like we are in a similar place. That's exactly what I worry about: making him feel betrayed and setting us back even further. I feel like I'm making progress on moving him to other forms of therapy and I want to make sure I don't disrupt that, while also being honest about what I've seen and felt.

I know from experience that while he's aware of his behavior and that it's problematic, he also continues to see me as the provocateur who's responsible for his moods and the way he reacts.

Why not just be honest about your conundrum, without details.

Flip it around.  Is it reasonable that "every" word you say get pre-approved by him before you say it to his medical professionals... .so he won't feel betrayed?

If you do that... .what are the chances he will twist your words and accuse you of betraying him anyway.

There is value in not dumping "everything" out there at once, that's for sure.  This has to be balanced by the value of actually addressing the problem.  There are legions of stories on here of pwBPD going to therapists, yet living in a fantasy world by not addressing what is "really" ... ."objectively" happening.

Here is the value in the letter.  It's objective.  It's not an opinion.  Letting a professional read it and then have follow up conversations allows the professional to put it in the proper context.

Last thought... .how has trying "not to make him angry" worked?  How do you think doing things so "he won't feel betrayed" will work? 

How often do you see psychiatrists together? 

So tonight the primary focus is on anger?  Perhaps at least ask when it's appropriate to bring up related topics.  I would think he was quite angry about your family molesting you.  I would also think he got more angry that you didn't buy his theory and cut off your family.

Do you see the connection? 

FF

No, I don't need to get everything pre-approved. I plan to be honest about what I'm witnessing without going too far into "dumping" territory. Addressing the problem without betraying him.

You're right. Depending on his mood, he could still see it as a betrayal.

Sometimes not making him angry has worked. On small stuff, like dinner decisions and whether to stay in or go out. But it's setting up a bad pattern of me giving up any feelings or opinions of my own to please him.

The P appointments have been irregular. This is only our second time with this one and the first meeting was almost two months ago. Maybe we'll get more on a regular schedule. It was this summer when things started to ramp up and only the end of October when I started to figure out what was really going on. We've only seen the P once since I discovered BPD.

I definitely see how that could fit in with the anger. I just need to see how things go. But I plan to be as honest as I feel is safe (for me) to do so about what's been going on.

Definitely ask about more regular visits. 

If you hubby doesn't want to do that... ask for your P's opinion.  Are regular or irregular visits better.

Follow the advice of professionals...

FF

Yes, very familiar with being held responsible for moods and reactions.

I don't know if this is accurate for you, but for me, the issue isn't *just* about whether my wife *feels* betrayed. It is about whether I have actually betrayed her trust in some way. I think this stuff is complicated. It's especially complicated in a BPD relationship, because we can't talk about it and get input from the other person. I don't want to betray my wife, even if I think doing so could possibly make something better. Despite acting like a child sometimes, she's not a child and I don't want to treat her as one. For me, I worry not just about what works, but also about what's right, and those two things are not always the same.

I don't have any real insight here, except that I get that it's complicated. My suggestion would be to think about what you think does or does not count as a betrayal. What kinds of things can you bring up that you are comfortable bringing up and comfortable (at least in your head, since doing this in reality will be ineffective) defending having brought up. I know I tend to get in trouble (with myself) when I do something that I think may help without thinking through whether I'm acting contrary to other values or principles I have. It's hard to balance it all and to sort it all out.

It sounds like that's what you're doing. You're figuring out what you're comfortable talking about or bringing up, and trying to do so in a way that is consistent with who you are and with respecting the other person.

I feel the same way, stolen. It's very hard for me to act in ways I don't feel are right. That's why I cannot go along with some of the things H wants me to do -- like being "forceful" and chewing someone out or using a lot of profanity and cutting someone off. I don't think it's right. I just can't do it.

But when I agree with him that someone has done something unfair, I will handle it -- my own way.

Similarly, I can't act in ways toward him that I think are wrong. That's why I can talk about some of these things in a therapy session but I don't think it's right to blindside him. It's a tricky tightrope to walk.

That it is complicated is an understatement.

That's precisely why trying to stay above details is important and find a couple principles that you will "cling" to.

1.  Is "keeping secrets" healthy or is "shining a light" appropriate.  
2.  Does it matter who you are "betraying" him to?  
3.  Do you want to validate to someone that you will keep their "dysfunctional secrets"?

Let's examine number 3.  Let's assume the OP keeps the secret and the P never finds out about the molestation claims.  Then... .new claims arise she was molested and was pregnant and hid the pregnancy.  However, OP is sworn to secrecy and doesn't "betray".  

Then... .more claims.  Was molested, had a pregnancy and was sold as a prostitute by her family for money.  At this point... OP breaks and "betrays".  Hubby goes nuclear about the "betrayal" and the debate centers around the "details" of if human trafficking (prostitution) is "worthy" of a betrayal.  Especially since the other secrets were kept.

Alternate life:

OP "betrays" now and husband realizes that these types of secrets will be "shown" or "betrayed" to appropriate professionals.  He pitches a fit that is bad, but much less than the nuclear fit about the prostitution.

However, in this life hubby doesn't "share" any more secrets... .so the OP never hears about the pregnancy claims and prostitution.


Which relationship is likely more stable?  Which "life" would you want for yourself or someone else?

I'm obviously a fan of "shining the light".  It has worked for me, but I can tell you it was horrible going through it and having to stand firm.

Best,

FF

Thanks, formflier. You have a really good way of putting things in a different light and helping me think things through in a different way. Something to consider there.

*mod*

This thread has reached the post limit and has been locked.  Please start a new conversation if wanted.