BPDFamily.com

Up until now I've posted solely on the Bettering a Relationship board. But a part of me feels like I'm moving into new territory.

My uBPDh and I have been married 2 years. It's in the last 5-6 months that things have taken a turn. Looking back, I can see signs of trouble (moodiness, overboard emotional responses to some things, etc.) but for the most part things were great.

We're at a point now where he's dysregulating on what feels like a daily basis. Either he's lashing out in anger or pouting and being depressed. His behaviors are very childish. He lies. He changes his views and opinions on a dime. I'll make suggestions for dinner or send him a link to recipe sites. He doesn't look at them or give much input other than "Oh, I don't know. Whatever is fine." Then, I choose. He complains. "This isn't good (even if he's loved it before). I don't know why we're having this." Well, I gave him ample opportunities to say what he wanted or come up with another plan. Or he'll blow up at me hours later for not ordering an appetizer at dinner. "Why didn't you say you wanted one? That would have been great." Yet it's my fault for not just knowing.

A lot of his anger centers on my family. The thing is, I understand why he feels the way he does. Certain things they have or haven't done can come across the way he's interpreting them. But, I know them well and I know that's not what was meant. He won't hear it, though, and keeps bringing up every perceived slight.

As far as I'm concerned, he believes I "always" side with my family. He never gets to win. I never support him. None of that is true. I've called people out on things when they've handled something poorly. I've gone to bat for him with them. But, yes, there are some things I won't do. When my father (doctor) and my brother-in-law (also doctor) both refused to call in a prescription for my husband (a psychiatric drug way outside their specialties and neither one is his doctor), he went ballistic. They offered other advice, like to call his PCP but he took it as them refusing to help. In this case, it was unethical, potentially dangerous and possibly illegal. But to him "you do that for family." I disagree. He'll hold it over them for all time.

If I don't cut people off or verbally rip people to shreds for things that upset him, then I'm not supporting him.

He also criticizes my relationship with my 8-year-old stepson -- something I work on and that I think is actually very good. It's not where he wants it to be, though he can't tell me what that is. And that's my fault.

His rages have gotten better but for a while there, he would throw and break things, yell, bang on furniture or walls, tell me he felt like hitting me (he's never done it).

He's threatened me with divorce many times. The few times I've reached my limit and said "Fine," he's backpedalled so fast my head spun. Suddenly he turns tearful and clingy.

Each day, I don't know which husband I'll come home to. The fun, loving normal one or the one who berates me for any tiny misstep.

Result? I'm exhausted. I've got a consultation appointment with a therapist tomorrow morning, hoping having an impartial, trained person to talk to will help center me. But for quite a while now, I've been feeling myself pulling away. I rarely feel sexually attracted to him now. When he complains, I point out that it's hard for me to feel sexy or attractive (never told him I'm not attracted TO him) when he's acting like he can barely stand to look at me. We do have sex but not as often as we used to.

Last month, he and SS went on a long weekend trip. I should have missed them but it was, honestly, a relief. I got to be alone without any worries of other peoples' moods and emotional states. I could choose what I wanted for dinner without second-, triple- and quadruple-guessing myself for fear it would trigger an episode. It was heaven. I'm counting down to his next solo trip.

It shouldn't be this way. I vowed to love and support him for better or worse. I feel like a horrible wife and horrible person. Yet the ranting, the outbursts, the insults, the condescension, the unfair accusations against me and people I love, all of it, I feel myself shutting down and emotionally stepping away, mentally preparing to be on my own again.

Can anyone relate? Has anyone been there? Does that mean I'm already "gone" or is there still hope?

*welcome* !

To the conflicted board. 

From reading your story I think we can have a positive influence on you and help get YOU to a place where you are not so exhausted anymore. 

I totally get what you mean about loving the peace... when you get alone time.  Been there... done that... look forward to that again.

Am I correct from reading your story that it's been getting worse.  There was a comment about weekly dysregulations... .I got the vibe they didn't use to be as bad.

I'm really glad for you that you are going to see a T.  I have a psychologist I see weekly and have done so for a long time now.  Really helps get perspective.

Big picture:  The more you can focus on you and being healthy... .and let him be childish or be an adult, the better off you will be.  Let him do his thing and you do yours.

Once he realizes that childish tantrums don't get him what he wants... .they will most likely die down some.  (that was a very simple statement about a very complex problem... .expect to find lots of nuance here regarding "what he wants")

So... last thing for now.  What do you think has led to things being worse (assuming I got the right vibe)... .in the last little while here.

Best to you... .

FF

Thank you, formflier!

For the first year and a half, our marriage was fine. He would occasionally get kind of worked up about something, but it flamed out quickly.

There have been a lot of stressful events in the last several months:
1) I had a (non-life-threatening) health issue that required several procedures.
2) I had a serious car accident (I walked away without a scratch but it could easily have gone the other way).
3) He was adopted as a newborn and recently found his biological family. They're wonderful and he's developing a great relationship with them, but it is still stressful.
4) An anti-psychotic his psychiatrist put him on caused weight gain and that's a HUGE trigger for him.

Plus general work stress.

He talks about stress a lot and accuses me of adding to it -- and his favorite phrase is "Not helping!". I do try to help, and I point that out to him. But I'm limited in what I can do. I do my best. But for him, if it's not what he wants or thinks he needs, then it's worthless. And whether it's me or someone else, we're "useless" or "a loser."

And he threatens to cut people off for the smallest things. His ex-wife was slow to respond to something regarding their son. His reaction? I'm going to call my lawyer and get full custody. And I'm going to tell S what a fat, horrible loser his mother is and how awful her parents are. So, seemed ready and willing to completely mess with an 8-year-old's mind just because she wasn't acting fast enough to please him. Or threatening to completely write off a friendship of 25 years over -- again -- a slow response.

Before, dysregulations were mild and might happen once every other week, if that. I didn't even think anything was really wrong. Just chalked it up to mood. Now, it's almost daily. And the violent way he lashes out and the things he says, I know it's not "normal."

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

OK... .here comes "judgmental" formflier.  I'm an ESTJ... .so it kinda just pops out.

You didn't get "here" to this bad place in your marriage with one thing and it will take a series of steps to get to a better place. 

You likely "got here" by trying to help and thought you were being "helpful" by pointing out to him... .how helpful you were.  Seems reasonable. 

However... .did he "feel" like you were helping?  (big pause... don't argue... just think for a bit)... .  nope... .back up... .stay with it.   Don't argue or say he should have felt something else... .or his feeling was wrong.

Did he "feel" like you were helping

Now... .read the article again in the link.

When you "pointed out" to him that you were trying to help... .what did you "do" to him?

FF

Really good point! That's something I've been working hard at -- trying to see things the way he does and not invalidating him. Very difficult but I'm trying. You're right. Arguing about that with him was itself harmful and invalidating. The point isn't if I was helping. Did he feel I was?

I did admit I wasn't able to help the way he needed and apologized for it many times. But I doubt that helped.

Read it again... .a couple times.

What can you do or not do... .most of the time... .to not invalidate?

FF

Recently your partner has begun dysregulating on nearly a daily basis. He's angry, depressed, pouting, lying, changeable and complaining. He's focused his anger upon your family, the doctors in particular, for not prescribing meds that he wanted. Though he's not raging as much as he had been, you're exhausted and you wonder which side of him you'll be seeing when you come home. You've felt yourself drifting away and you don't feel attracted to him. When he was out of town for a weekend, it was a relief. You feel guilty for feeling this way, but you don't like how he has behaved to you and with your family.

He has had a variety of stressors and you've tried to help, but he's felt that your help was "not helping". You're quite perplexed at what you can do to help him and he's very critical of others and willing to cut them off for insignificant reasons.

You ask if anyone else has been in this same position. I'll say absolutely yes! Things are much better with me and my husband now, with what I've learned here.

Yes, it's easy to invalidate a pwBPD, but it's also very difficult to live with someone when they're so troubled. You've been married for a relatively short time and now the honeymoon phase is definitely over and you get to see the other side of your husband.

It takes a lot of work to learn how to relate well with a pwBPD and it's a lifelong challenge. There's no shame in choosing not to pursue that challenge, but if you want to improve things, it's indeed a possibility.

Cat

Hello Ozzie101, and welcome to the “conflicted board”!

I am sure you have heard of the book; “Stop Walking on Eggshells”... .

Well I came across it on YouTube the other day, the “audio book” is some eight hours of playtime... .but you can access it on your phone or computer... .I’ve been re-reading / listening to it for days now... .so here is the link !

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5QY4JZJonCs

I seem to keep replaying from the 1:25.00 mark forward over and over... .as I struggle myself... .to understand my own pw/BPD’s endless behaviors... .

It is a ginormous file and it does take a few moments to download, so give a few seconds to load and play,

How this helps... .kind regards,

Red5

Thank you, Red5. I actually just read that book last month and keep it for reference. It was a big help in understanding my husband's behavior and state of mind.

I realize I made a lot of mistakes and a lot of what I did was invalidating. It's the big thing I'm working on. Since I stopped arguing back so much, keeping calm and trying to validate his feelings, his rages haven't been quite as bad. So, I am hopeful.

But I'm also seeing more and more that while I do share a part of the blame for things, a lot of his behavior is emotionally and verbally abusive. I'm scared that could lead further down a road I don't want to get deep into. It already scares me when I look back at some nights, remember what he said and how I responded (agreeing, admitting I'm stupid, going along with his demands that I make lists of how I've failed).

What I hope you understand is that invalidation is FAR MORE powerful than validation.

A "figured" that is often tossed around here is that 1 invalidation equals 10 validations.

Said another way, for many people it's easy to invalidate them and hard to find the "validation target".  (have you ever tried to validate and had him be grumpy?)

I'm not so good at validation.  I work on it and at least try to consider it now.

I'm pretty good at avoiding invalidation.  My relationship is so much calmer.

Most of the time I avoiding invalidation by staying quiet or at least having a long pause.

FF

I can see that. And I know that's a big part of why I messed up early on. The feelings=facts concept and others were completely foreign to me. Now, after reading the book and participating here, I have a better idea on how to approach things. It's definitely a work in progress.

Good morning Ozzie101,


This is where I’m at now in my own marraige to uBPDw, for years prior to ‘discovery’ of this thing we call BPD, .I was doing it ALL wrong... .I did as you describe... .I fought back against the seemingly endless ‘insanity’... .endless fights, I was ‘invalidating’ with all my mental strength... .which escalated in intensity each passing week, month and year.

Then as I began to search for the ‘reason why’... .I stumbled onto BPD, and started reading... .learning, and trying to at long last implememt means - tools to try and correct, effect change in the marraige... .but it hasn’t worked out over the long term... .I have come to believe that my uBPDw may be too far gone in all of this... .

I had a good degree of hope for a while, but uBPDw eventually crossed a ‘rubicon’... .a ‘deal breaker’... .long story, so things are now nose diving... .

Each pw/BPD is quite different but yet the same, hopefully in your relationship... .the more you learn and use the coping mechanisms - tools, you will be able to establish a baseline of livable peace in you relationship with your own/BPD.

Formflier is very knowledgeable and experienced... .he has lots of good advice... .I encourage you to try some of his well used tools ; )

Hang in there Ozzie!

Kind regards, Red5

Thank you!

So, regarding validating/invalidating, how would people approach this one:
Husband: Your sister is the favorite child. Your parents only care about appeasing her. They don't give a damn about you or us.
Me: You think that?
H: Absolutely. Don't you?
M: She does get her way a lot. I can see how you would think that way.
H: But you don't think they prefer her?
M: I can understand that perspective, considering how the holiday plans worked out. And it would hurt to feel pushed aside.
H: Your parents don't care about us. They only care about your sisters.
M: <crickets>
H: Say it. Say your parents prefer your sisters. Say your parents don't care about you.

That's an example but it has happened and other similar conversations. In one (that's happened a couple of times) he's tried to get me to say that I was molested by my father or grandfather. Didn't happen. I barely kept from blowing my lid at that one. I try to stay quiet, hedge, validate his feelings without agreeing, but he picks up on it and backs me into a corner, demanding that I flat-out repeat what he said, word-for-word. It's never something I agree with and I can't bring myself to do that.

Instead:

Me:  I'm listening.  Help me understand your views on this... it seems important to you.

Anytime you get "put on the spot" for an answer... .flip it and listen more.

him:  Don't you?

me:  Goodness... this is the first I'm thought of this, so I'll give it some thought. 

pause:

me:  This seems important to you... so it's important to me, can we talk more about it tomorrow after dinner?  At the moment I'm not able to give this my full attention.

FF

When thinking about validation... .stay away from agreeing or disagreeing.

There is also a concept of "validating the invalid" (which you don't want to do)

switching gears... .think about times you use the word "why".  Find them... get rid of that word.

Why is for courtrooms... .understanding is for relationships.


What's the backstory here?... .help me understand how this subject comes up.

How would you handle it if he came to you and said?

"The troll in the back yard got a new unicorn.  Don't you agree the pink horn is wonderful?"

Seriously... .give it some thought about your reaction to that

Then compare it to his mind reading powers being applied to your parents.

FF

I'll try those next time that comes up. And I'll watch the "why."

I've been trying to validate feelings but not the invalid but obviously I struggle with the wording -- and he picks up on that and corners me, wanting a full-on declaration. That's where I get tripped up. But you've given me some good phrases and tips.

Family comes up a lot and is his main trigger. He's an only child who never really connected with his parents. They were very controlling and rule-based.

My family is large and close-knit. While we don't all get along all the time, we do love each other and enjoy being around each other. I'm aware that the family gatherings are overwhelming for him and have been supportive in his desire to skip some of them and have happily agreed to go out of town for some holidays. He has said I'm too attached to them. Can't understand why I enjoy talking to my parents and grandmother or why I care about my sisters' kids.

He was adopted as a newborn and recently found his biological family -- very nice, normal, loving people who are thrilled to have him in their lives. It's been very positive for him but also stressful. Anyway, he's told me that since meeting them, he's starting to actually understand why I might like being around family. It's not always misery. Maybe that's progress.

Thing is, he's certain they look down on him for being divorced. That they don't like him. They don't care about him. I used to insist that wasn't true but now I'm trying to find ways to validate his feelings without agreeing with them. He can read bad motives into anything. My parents only stay three hours for dinner? They hate him. They'd spend more time with the other kids. They give him the Yeti cup he's really wanted for Christmas? Well, they gave him the light blue instead of dark blue so obviously they don't know him.

In short, they can't win.

It's been suggested to me on the Bettering Relationships board that his attitude to my family may be projection, yearning and jealousy. He wants the big, loving close family I have. He wants to be a part of it. Yet, it's not the family he grew up with and it's a reminder of that. And no matter what, they'll always love me more than they do him. So, he takes any opportunity to bash them and try to put a wedge between them and me.

I don't know. Maybe that's true. It does make sense.

Anyway, it comes up a lot. Any incident, real or imagined, involving them will spin around in his head and the slightest trigger can bring it out. Even something seemingly unrelated. He'll then rant about it for hours and try to force me to agree with his point of view or to agree to call them and tear them apart or agree to cut them off completely. I try to change the subject or to postpone and he comes back with "See? You won't agree with me. You will always side with them. You love them more than you love me. I've done everything for you but you won't stand by me." I can see where he's getting that and I understand that, from his point of view, his feelings are very real and he's twisting facts to support them. The fact that I'm not supporting them makes him feel like I'm rejecting him and against him. Yet I cannot agree with what he says or do what he wants me to do.

When he's said something true, I've agreed. When he's had a legitimate problem, I've confronted the person involved to work it out. I'll readily admit when a family member falls short or is less than perfect. No problem there. But he doesn't recognize those things. They don't count.

It's like being caught in a trap.

What if you didn't "take the cheese" in the trap?

We will give you suggestions, but my hope for you is that you try to understand the "mindset" that I used to give a proposed response (like to your example you gave me) vice you "memorizing lines".

We'll certainly try to understand the dynamics going on here better... .but most importantly if we understand accurately that the dynamics are no longer working... .STOP them.

examples.  Is talking about your parents love or hatred of him working?  Do you think "one more" conversation will help?

There is another thing I'm hoping to get you to (although this will likely take a while)... .  Now he does things and you react. 

What if you lived the life that was healthy for you?... .and let him do what he does... or doesn't do.  In other words... .let him react to you.

FF

Yes, that's exactly what I want. The conversations get us nowhere and I see that. I guess I need to learn how to stop them -- or how to just walk away or something. They're not productive. I just haven't figured out how to stop them. I have succeeded in controlling my emotions, staying calm and neutral and not arguing back. That keeps him from going nuclear but doesn't stop the conversations themselves. He'll keep going. The only options I can think of are to just leave the room (when I'm pretty sure he'd follow) or pick up a book, turn on the TV or something (wouldn't go over well). Is there something I'm not thinking of?

And you're right. Memorizing lines isn't the answer. It should be getting the right mindset. That's a very good point.

Is your function in life to stop arguments from happening?  Is that even possible?

How many people does it take to argue?

Kinda a trick question... .kinda a serious one to think through.  Spend some time on this question...




Detaching strategies are important. 

Sometimes "I'm not able to talk right now... ." is all you can do.  Sometimes more. 

I'm less interested in how you do it... .and I'm more interested that you stop circular, inane, ridiculous, (you can fill in some adjectives if you want)... .conversations.

How many times around does it take to confirm a circular conversation/argument?  (again... serious question)



I'm glad you see this. 

What would be productive?


Circle back to first question... you will find your answer.

How many people does it take to argue?


FF

You're right. When I respond to his irrational statements and attacks, I'm keeping things going. That's why I've lately been pulling back -- not engaging. I can't say it's worked very well just yet. My non-response just makes him angry. At the same time, he's not getting as worked up as he used to so maybe that's a sign it's working -- at least somewhat.

I wish I knew what would be productive. The thing is, I know I've made mistakes. There have been times I've been insensitive. Or where I haven't supported him enough. That makes me feel guilty and like he has a good point. And I know he has some legitimate gripes and concerns that need to be addressed. But I know none of it's coming out in a healthy way. His behavior is abusive and that whatever I might have done, I don't deserve the way he's treating me.

I wish he would agree to therapy so maybe we could both work on developing a healthier relationship. I had a consultation with a therapist this morning who recommended some experts for him but he's always been so against talk therapy that I fear what his response would be.

I'm getting really heavy in this thread... .and I've dumped a lot on you, yet you seem to be "getting it"... which is why I keep tossing stuff at you.  

You have a lot to reflect on.

The key in the bolded part is "I".  Think about that.  Who is in control of the "I"?  Why is that important?


It is working.  He didn't get this way in a day... and it will take a similar amount of time to unwind.

It would be great if he went to therapy.  You don't control that.  Communications is problematic at the moment.

I recommend you focus on you.  Find out just how much power and control YOU (and only you) have over the conflict in your relationship.

There will come a time to address therapy for him... .him doing and not doing things.  Let's cross that bridge when you get there.

How does that sound?

Last thing.  Consistency is key.  So... .if for a week you ignore his "bait" to argue... then one time you take it and argue... .that is really bad.  That's why gambling  can be addictive.

I used to be able to find links about "intermittent reinforcement"... .at the moment I can't.

Be consistent!

FF

I really appreciate the feedback.

I've read about intermittent reinforcement and remember a lot from college. I know consistency is vital. Not always easy when in the heat of the moment but it's something I'm working on -- that and staying calm.

You're right. I need to focus on me and my role in things. I also need to really figure out my lines in the sand -- my boundaries. What am I willing to tolerate -- or not?

It's a lot to digest. And it will take a lot of work. But I need and want to have goals in mind for myself and to do my part to work towards a healthier environment and frame of mind.

Yes... .and yet it will also create a lot of time and space for you.

What if you had all the energy and time you have "spent" on arguments... .back in your "wallet"?

How valuable would that be to you?

Would it be "worth" the "hard work".

How hard is it to keep your mouth shut?  (trust me... it's gets easier with practice)

FF

Absolutely.

I'm getting better about keeping my mouth shut. I don't argue back, even if he says something I don't like. I just need to keep it up.

Ozzie, can anyone relate?

Oh, can I!      Your description of your H sounds so much like mine, pouting, divorce threats, anger, double-binds and all.

When H dysregulates, he rages, breaking objects, upending and trashing furniture, and punching holes in walls and doors.   These actions used to devastate me to sobbing tears, or responses of rage of my own.

Now I calmly acknowledge to myself that H is a sick man and don't engage.  I leave the room to let him deal with his tantrum.

My H is moody, enmeshed with his adult children, has no real identity to speak of (he takes to heart the opinions of his close friends and children), is jealous of my family and their financial comfort (H's family lives in poverty due to FIL's uNPD; BIL and W are drug addicts), and is jealous of me and my financial comfort. I was able to retire well early and H is jealous.

Whether or not there is hope for your marriage is up to your goals.  Do you want to stay married?  Two years is a small investment, as I have been married for more than 20 years and, looking back, H was always volatile and unreasonable.  It was only until I stepped back and recognized H wasn't the sanest man around.

IMO, being married to a BPD man is like being married to a toddler--or a teenager.  They are volatile, nasty, angry and moody.  They go from happy to angry for the slightest triggers.  I have learned that my H often projects the rage he feels toward his first W (she cheated on him while he was overseas in the military) and took the children.  H also had a horrid FOO, and his F spent all of his meagre earnings on himself and gave little to his W and his children.

As for the illegal act your H expected of your F and B on writing prescriptions for someone not under their care, my H wanted me to falsify a document for one of his children so she would not have to pay out-of-state college fees.  I flatly refused.  I am sure due to splitting that he does not even recall what he asked me to do.    

BPDs are like that.  They want what they want, and they want it now--whatever it takes.  They have no boundaries.  My H flies into rages, threatened divorce at least once a week--now it's once a month--telling me how horrible a W I am, I am an old hag and no one will want to date me after he leaves me, and on and on. My response is essentially, "So I am.  What's it to you?  If you want a divorce, have me served."  I no longer beg to talk it over, I no longer take the fall for something that's not my fault, and I am comfortable now in the event that we do part our ways.

I have found several books on BPD helpful.  You may have already heard of them.

"Walking On Eggshells."  Randi Kreger.  This is the first book to reach for.

"When Hope Is Not Enough."  Bon Dobbs.  This has helpful strategies for interacting with a BPD family member or spouse.  

I am glad you are aware that your H's behaviour is something you did not cause.

If you are not already in therapy, you may wish to find one for just yourself as I find this is helpful to me.  Make sure your T knows about BPDs.  

AskingWhy,

Can you catch us up with more detail on the history here.

What did you do "in the old days" when he wold dysregulate?  How long would the tantrum last?  How would you feel after?  things like that.

Now that you leave the room.  How long does it last?  How do you feel after?  etc etc

FF

I leave the room and let H deal with his mess.  I make sure the pets and grandchildren are safe and away from any broken glass, plastic or splintered wood, but otherwise I totally disengage.  I immediately stop talking to H, and don't help him clean up the disaster he has made.  H almost immediately stops the tantrum to begin cleaning up.  I feel so much better disengaging and letting him own up to the violence. 

Thank you, AskingWhy

I've read Eggshells but will look into the other.

As for my marriage, that's one thing I'm trying to figure out. I love him. But like you said, 2 years isn't a huge investment. No kids. I'm at a point now, like you, where if he said "Let's end it" my world wouldn't end. I have a strong support system and I've always been independent. I don't want to end it but if I have to, I can. In a way, I guess that's good.

Also, I had a consultation with a therapist (BPD specialist) yesterday. It went very well but now I have to decide whether to continue. H has always been against either one of us seeing someone (they're fakes, only after money, sharing private info with a stranger). I can't go without telling him. But sometimes he's more receptive to the idea. I'm hoping if I can get the timing right, I can tell him I plan to go. I feel it would help me a lot.

Big picture value I would hope you consider.

"I am responsible for my own medical care."  I put mental health under that boundary... .value.

FF

Oh, I agree. If I decide to go, it will be my decision. A tell, not an ask. But I also know that it could potentially lead to problems and I need to be prepared for that.

Such as what?

FF

One of his big triggers is feeling out of the loop. If I see a therapist, that's a private conversation. He won't know what we're saying about him, which will make him feel more paranoid.

Even if he's receptive at first, when he dysregulates, that's something else that he will bring up to throw at me. He's threatened before that if I see one, he would have a big problem with it and it could end our relationship. Empty threats, most likely.

I guess I'm just afraid it will instigate a meltdown. I can't let the fear of those control me, yet the fear is real. I guess I'm afraid he will either become physically violent with me or he will kick me out. Yet I'm starting to fear the latter less.

Well... .if he wants to know what is being said about him... he can show up and ask.

The key to ALL of this... .ok... MOST of this.  Is for you to solve your issues.  Let him solve his issues.

As soon as he wants to solve his paranoia by having you not do other things... .red-flag

Think about that for a moment.

He could kick you out... that is possible.  He could also kick you out for buying the wrong coffee... that is possible too.

He could also kick you out for having a pet unicorn and hiding your flying monkeys from him.  If you would only show me the monkeys... .(see how it's all your fault?)

Substitute another medical issue for this.

If you go to the doctor for your bad heart... .I'll kick you out.    Would you stand for that?

I get it the subject matter is a bit different... .yet the principal and the broad subject (your health) is the same.

FF

Agreed. I can't let him dictate what I do regarding my health. You put it very well.

The thing is, the more I think about it, the more I can see the FOG. I love him. In many ways, he's been very good to and for me. But that doesn't negate or excuse his other behavior. I feel bad sometimes because I know it's an illness talking. That's not him and not his fault. Yet if he doesn't fix it, that IS his fault.

Yet I feel like I owe it to him to stay. And I'm afraid of what would happen if I left.

I have a support system so I'm luckier than a lot of people.

There's the Obligation and Fear right in those two sentences.

Exactly. I'm aware of it, yet I still feel it.

This is the way that it is supposed to go... .

“Dear, I’m thinking of going to see a therapist... .there are some things in my life that are perplexing to me, and I want to work on these things... .I want to undestand what I’m feeling and I want to be more intuned to my inner spiritual being... .what do you think Dear?... .

(Answer should be)... .wow love, that’s sounds pretty deep, I think this is a good thing for you to persue... .anything that enriches the soul is good karma... .I love you and I will support you in what ever capacity I can, and that you would be comfortable with... .good for you!... .this is awesome !

Hmmmm,

That’s the way it’s supposed to go... .

Red5

And if I tell him in the right way, at the right time, I think he would be receptive. He may not like it, really, but he wouldn't be a jerk about it. At the wrong time, though, while he wouldn't "forbid" me, he would lash out or get nasty about it. With him it really is all about timing. But his moods can absolutely turn on a dime.

Yesterday, he was kind of down. Not moody, just in a kind of depressed phase. Yet after dinner last night, he was playful, teasing, upbeat -- the person I fell in love with.

That's part of what makes everything so hard. It really is Jekyll and Hyde. Like two different people. And I never know when something may come up that could flip the switch.

Last night and this morning, he was great. Then, just now, something happened that I fear is triggering him again. We're planning a family Christmas thing for this weekend (since we'll be gone for the holiday week): get together at our house to open gifts and then go out for pizza. Well, we haven't said anything about it to anyone other than setting the date and general parameters. Well, my mom just emailed making a suggestion (not an order) on a pizza place. Now he's angry that my mom is "taking over." It was just a suggestion and, like I said, we hadn't said anything or even let them know we were going to make the plans. She was just throwing out an idea. But to him, that means they're all going to step in and dictate what happens. Any family thing gets him worked up already, which means he's super-sensitive to any misstep or anything that falls outside what he wants or expects. I get that. But I also know my family 1) mean well 2) are adults who I/we can't control. I can step in when they're doing something or not doing something that's easy to fix, but I'm not going to try to micromanage them or make them bend over backwards to fit his needs and moods. I need to stop doing that myself. I don't want or need to drag them into it too.

So... .with pwBPD it's helpful to stop looking at the "trees" and look at the forest.

Take the Mom/pizza story.  Here is my guess... .he was a little anxious about something already but likely couldn't articulate it.  Someone handed him something that could be easily twisted into an offense... .and he twisted away, rather than dealing with the underlying anxiety (or other odd feeling).

Now... .most non's will say "Oh... .I'll be more careful and not hand him reasons."  But if you think about that... .he just handed his emotional responsibility to other people... and hey took it

Perhaps he needs to be mad... .and the most loving thing you can do is give him space. 

If he gripes about Mom... perhaps say "I'm sure you can work through this.  You plan the best parties."  (what would you guess he would say?)

Blah blah blah... .make your Mom not do xyz.   to which you could respond "Oh goodness... sounds like you need to make your desires known to Mom... .here is her phone number."

Then... .when he wants you to speak for him... .you can be very puzzled... .

"Isn't it best if you speak for yourself?"

Do you see how you keep "handing it back to him"?  You express confidence?  You don't fix, although you offer to help... .I wouldn't do anything until he specifically asks... and it seems like a healthy thing to do.

Again... .look at the Forest.  He's a grouch.  If not this "tree"... then another. 

FF

Yes. I know I've been taking on his problems and trying to fix them. Sometimes I've done it because I don't want him to create a bigger problem (for instance, calling my mom and exploding at her, which would cause a world of problems and I'd be caught in the middle of it). But they are his problems and I need to work on just stepping back and calmly having him handle them himself. If it goes the way evidence has suggested, he'll just rant about it without doing anything about it -- then bring it up again and again for the foreseeable future. So maybe I don't need to be so worried about him burning bridges or doing something truly damaging.

So, yes. I'll stay calm and confident, step back, not say anything and let it roll. In this case, I suggested to him that I send a group email saying "Here's what we're thinking and will let you know when we know for sure." That way people know we ARE working on it, so they don't jump in and start making plans to fill the void. He hasn't replied to that suggestion yet, which, unless he's caught in a meeting, means he's not happy with it. But I'm not going to push it or move beyond that. And I'm already thinking through scenarios of how he will react and what he will say later so I can be prepared with some validation of feelings but also handing back of problems.

How has trying to control him making problems or bigger problems worked out so far?  Remind me again... .are things getting better or worse over last 6 months to a year?

And... .I'm puzzled... .how would you be caught in the middle?  Would they both force you to stay there?  Help me out with this... .I'm not quite seeing it.

FF

Oh, it hasn't worked -- not long-term anyway. It often works short-term. He calms down and moves on (until the next dysregulation, when he'll probably bring up the same thing again). His rages have lessened in number and intensity but the problem doesn't completely go away. That's why I need to stop stepping in to do damage control when there's a problem.

I would be in the middle if he blew up at my mom the way he has with me before -- over-the-top, verbally abusive over something that was, to their minds, benign. Knowing him, that would set him in a "I hate your family. You are choosing: them or me. You either cut them off completely or we're through."

Of course, thinking that through, I couldn't and wouldn't agree to do that.

On my family's end, they would see the reality of my situation and would be extremely concerned -- and would probably push me to get help and get away from him.

Basically, I see it provoking a crisis. At the same time, the crisis would just put me in the same situation I'm in now, just with more urgency. I'm already kind of caught in the middle. They do or say something that he and I interpret in different ways. He gets angry and reiterates how much he hates my family. I tell him I understand why he feels that way. He continues for a while and then calms down. The next time something comes up, the latest offense is added to the litany of offenses.

I suppose it doesn't put me in the middle unless I allow myself to be put there.

But the more I think about it, the more I think that he wouldn't actually go through with calling my mom. He would want me to handle it. If I refused, he would probably pout and sulk and, again, pull the "See? You always side with your family. You never have my back. I've told my people about it and they all agree that you're wrong and too tied to the apron strings." But he wouldn't make the call.

           


     


Stay big picture with me... .

See how we are talking about principles?

Now... let's talk briefly about your Mom.  Would she be required to listen to him rant and be verbally abusive?

Would you be required to listen to him bad mouth you about your family... not having his back... .selling his unicorn... .throwing stones at his flying monkeys?

Note:  I haven't got a sense yet of your sense of humor.  I often listen to what my wife says and if it's offbase... .I make it more ridiculous in my mind.  That allows me to say "light" and give a more gentle or bemused response.

Because... .

You love them more than you love me is really as ridiculous as him asserting that you love his unicorn more than his flying monkey.  And then he demands you go spend time with flying monkey to make up for it.

"Oh... my babe... I'm listening (perhaps stammer a bit... be confused some).  Are you interested in understanding my feelings better?"

Take some time and think about the proposed response.  What does it "say" or "do?  Compare that to what you have said in the past to "you never have my back... " and things like that.

FF

So you are "hiding" the reality of your relationship from your family? How do you feel about doing that? And what does that portend for the future? How do you see this working out when you have children?

No, no one's required to listen. She'd probably be shocked and my dad would likely get involved and it could escalate. They're not used to dealing with that kind of volatility and would probably react the way I did early on.


Not exactly. I've told my parents a good bit, though sometimes I wonder if I should have. I fear I haven't been fair to him and may be turning them against him. But at the same time, I needed someone to talk to and my mother has always been a calm, rational sounding board. I feel comfortable telling her anything. Anyway, they already suspected something was going on. I had to have some conversations with my dad regarding medical stuff (when he and my brother-in-law couldn't write prescriptions for H) and there were a few times (before I learned some new tools and figured out what was going on) when I complied with his requests to call them and tell them he comes first or to address some problem with how they'd handled something. They're smart people. They knew something was up.

Regardless, I feel guilty. They've been around him since learning the truth and they still treat him the same as before. They're not controlling types. They believe their children are adults and need to make their own decisions. They can give advice (when asked) but otherwise will do whatever they can to support us without interfering. If I want my relationship to work, they will help however I need. If I want to end it, they will, again, help. But I know my telling them what I have colors their perspectives of him. If he knew, he'd be horrified. At the time I talked to them, I was frightened, desperate and confused and reacted by talking to the people I trust most.

Maybe that was a mistake.

Anyway, they don't know everything. They don't know details of things he's said or done. They know I haven't been physically hurt. They don't know some of the emotional or verbal abuse he's put on me or some of the horrible things he's accused them of.

I do not plan to have children. He is very clear about not wanting more and had a vasectomy before I met him. I was OK with that and, now, even more so. I have no desire or plans to bring a child into this.

Edited to add:
I was right about the family thing. He's now angry because they're making suggestions on what to do at "our" party at "our" house. I told him I could see how that would bother him. But I think letting people know that we have it under control is the way to go.

Frankly, they probably see this as a family party where people can help out or make suggestions. He sees it as ours, where we call all the shots and pay for everything. It's a difference in how it's seen. We were never really clear on that and haven't let people know we're handling the plans. But, ultimately, the way I see it, he's wrapping an iron fist around all of it, basically daring anyone to resist or step out of line so then he can be righteously angry and lash out. Again.

For instance, I suggested letting everyone know we're working on plans, this is what we're thinking, we'll let you know when we have it set. He wants to just let it get closer to time -- even though people are starting to make suggestions and offer to help. He wants to say nothing. It's only Monday. The party is Saturday. It's too early. Your family has to plan things out way in advance. That's so annoying. Yet, if you say nothing, you're kind of leaving people in the air and when they don't know you're handling it, yeah, the polite thing to do at (what they think is) a joint family thing is to offer help.

Oh... so he asked you for help figuring out what you guys should say to people?

Could you do a little more he said she said on how it came up, your response... .his... etc etc.  Trying to get the flavor of things

FF

He didn't ask for help.

It all started with my sending a group email (which he was copied on) saying since we'll be out of town for Christmas week, we wanted to plan a family get-together so we could see everyone. I gave our available dates and suggested something fun like bowling or going out for pizza.

One sister couldn't make it on any dates (she has four kids who are all in various activities) but parents, grandmother and other sisters all could. So, date was chosen. One sister said bowling would be a challenge for her group (her four-year-old is autistic) but pizza sounded great.

H was very annoyed bowling was nixed. Said he thought I'd said bowling AND pizza -- not OR. He dropped it when he reread the email. But he still griped that she was trying to control things and wasn't being flexible enough. "She can't handle her kid for a couple of hours? See? I'm a better parent. I can make things work." I just shrugged and let him go on about that one and didn't point out that her child has special needs.

H and I have talked about it since and I suggested having everyone over in the afternoon for drinks, snacks and gift opening, then either bringing pizza in or going out. He didn't want to say anything until we had the plans all decided.

Today, Mom sends an email saying "Just a suggestion, but if we're going out for pizza, what about XXX? The kids would probably have fun playing the games and Dad and I will be happy to supply them with tokens."

I wrote a text to H and suggested that I reply to all telling them what we were thinking, plan-wise. That way they would know we were working on the plans and it wasn't all up in the air. He said he thought we'd already decided no on XXX. I said, no, it was still on the table. I'd even suggested it as being fun for the kids. We'd never ruled it out.

He then went into the "I don't tell people how to do things when it's at their house!" I agreed that people don't need to tell us how to do things. But I also said we also haven't been clear that we see it as our party and that we're working on the details. I said I thought sending an email to just take the reins of the conversation would be helpful in clarifying things. (Didn't mention that, technically, the going out for pizza isn't at our house." That would just be escalating and smart-@$$ behavior.)

He's angry and afraid that they're taking charge of an event he sees as ours. I get that. But i also know this was just a suggestion. Not a mandate. And, as far as they know, we're open to suggestions and happy to share the planning.

Some of us "nons" have a habit of "overfunctioning".

Not just for us... but for others.  Trying to smooth waters that someone else really should smooth.

What would happen if you waited to make suggestions like that, until he specifically asks.  Or... you could ask him what he thinks first?

FF

I guess it was me jumping in preemptively. I saw the email from my mom and so, I suggested, "Hey, why don't I send an email to let them know what we're planning"? I thought letting people know was the thoughtful thing to do but didn't want to do it without running it by him first since I knew that my jumping in like that without discussing it with him would be a big trigger.

Maybe I shouldn't worry about running things by him first like that. But, when I've acted before, he's gotten very upset with me.

I suppose I've been trying to walk the line. I don't want to set him off. But I also don't want to just act and do things I know for a fact will make him angry or hurt his feelings.

I could have asked him what he thought but it would have been purely academic. I knew what he would think -- and his reaction bore that out. I strongly suspect if I had asked, I would have gotten some version of "We've been married two years. You don't know how I would react to something like that? You should know better. You're not that stupid."

Again... .don't get too close to this one incident.  I suspect it reflects a general attitude or way of functioning...

Oh... here is this thing... I better jump on it quick before he... (fill in blank)    Or some version of this.

So... am I correct that the email was sent by Mom to both of you guys (two separate email addresses?)

You could reply right away and say...

"Oh mom... that sounds wonderful.  Thanks for putting thought into this.

Before making any firm plans, I'm sure you will understand I want to talk to (hubby).  One of us will get back to you after we discuss this opportunity."


Then... .talk in person and ask if he wants to let her know the decision.

switching gears.  Should he make a crank comment like you suggest.  I suggest staying quiet and calm... .let him blow for a bit.

Then say ... "Babe... .I'm not a mind-reader... your actual feelings and thoughts are important to me." 

perhaps after more blather.

"if you don't want to share your thoughts... please say so... all this other stuff is confusing to me."

Again... focus on the mindset behind the conversation I am suggesting.

FF

Yes, the mindset is the most important. This is just an example of many incidents in the last several months.

The email was to the whole group (including him) and I've written to Mom to thank her and let her know we're still figuring it all out.

I get where he's coming from on this. Again, like other times. If someone's having you over, you don't say "Oh, you should do this!" But this situation is a little different. The suggestion was for the part that's not at our house. The event is getting closer and we haven't said a word to anyone what plans might be or even if we're making any -- or if it's up for everyone to pitch in. He didn't want me to say anything until it was all set. And from what's been communicated, I don't think the others realize that H sees it as "our" party under our control. Miscommunication there. I get it. It's a typical thing. A family member means well but does or says something that triggers him, not realizing what they're doing. He sees it in the worst possible light.

This will bring up other things: For instance, my mom invited us to their house to celebrate my birthday a few days before the day itself. He was angry she hadn't consulted him first and that we would celebrate my birthday with my family before we did it together. My family's not too picky about the day of the birthday and they're not competitive about stuff like that. Wouldn't even occur to them. They invited us that day because they were going out of town for two weeks the day after my actual birthday and, the day in question, my favorite aunt would be in town so a great chance for us to get to see each other. He was in a funk for a week and still brings that up. I get where he was coming from but I also know it was all well-meant and they were, in their way, being thoughtful.

I've gotten a lot better about just staying calm. When he makes comments like that, I just let him go.

I'm kind of dreading going home soon. Last night was so great. But I know I'm walking into "the zone" as soon as I step through the door today. Then again, maybe by then he will have had time to cool off.

So... did you "reply to all" and let her know you were figuring it out?

It's ok to say no to your Mom as well, yet I would only do that after talking with hubby.

It's not your job to make you hubby happy with what other people say or smooth things over. (this assumes "normal" stuff like you are talking about).

He can be upset that she didn't contact him a week ahead of time... or a month... .or 13 days 12 hours and 42 minutes ahead of time.  If he wants to communicate with Mom about expectations... .he can do that... directly.  (no middle person)

Try to relax for going home... .let him be... who he will be

FF

I just replied to her. Told her thanks for the suggestion and we were still trying to figure out our plans. I agree with him that it's up to us to figure it out. Where we don't agree is her intent (I know her -- she's not trying to run things, just making an innocent suggestion) and how to handle it. I haven't said no to her. Not until we figure things out.

I'm feeling determined to just let him react how he's going to react. I'm not handling this for him. If he ends up with his "OK. We're calling this off. I'm not doing any more stuff with your family," I'll let him make that decision. But I'm going to see my family myself. I'm not playing along on that game. That will make him angry too (not supporting him or taking his side) but that's not my problem, really. He'll react how he'll react.

On the intent thing... you don't have to agree.  If he pushes it... .I would suggest being "bumused" and wondering aloud how you can know someone's intent... . 

Perhaps ask if you guys should call and ask your Mom together... let him decide if knowing is a big deal.

If you reply to all... gives you a chance to show the world (and him) that you are putting his wants in their "proper" place... .   You and he make plans... the rest of the world then finds out.

FF

That's what I was about to do -- then stopped and ran the idea by him first (in case he had a better suggestion or wanted to add anything). Then he went into the zone and got too caught up in being offended to agree to anything. I didn't reply all because after mentioning it to him and him never agreeing to it, if I wrote, then it would be me doing something he didn't want me to do.

He didn't want me to write it because he thinks we shouldn't even have to. They should just stay back and let us plan it, keeping their mouths shut. An email from us shouldn't be necessary at all and to write it would be giving in.

Maybe I should have just written the reply like I'd meant to originally. I just thought it would be better to keep him in the loop before I acted. I know that's a big trigger for him.

It wasn't as bad as I'd thought. Again I got the "you'll always side with them" thing. And the "they've been awful to me and Son". I get why he feels that way. But I also know their side. Any slights are unintentional. So, tricky. He has a point. But his reactions and ways of handling things are so over the top that it's hard to deal with in a rational manner. And instead of "They're handling this poorly" it's "they're awful, horrible people."

Well, I spoke too soon. Things went fine in the afternoon and evening. Then, we went to bed.

His Son (8) is with us this week, which can affect the morning routine. Sometimes H takes S to school and then goes straight to work -- and, therefore, needs to be in the bathroom first. Other times, he takes S to school, then goes back home to exercise. Those days, I go ahead into the bathroom. We were getting into bed and I asked which he was doing in the morning so I would be sure to be out of his way. I had asked him the same thing Sunday night. No problem.

Somehow, that was a trigger.

What followed was two hours of lashing out. The topics (none of which were new):
1) I always put my family first. I always take their side on everything and never support him.
2) My family have treated him and S terribly.
3) I put my job before our marriage.
4) I never help out around the house (this after I helped S with homework, cleaned up the kitchen, got S to bed and prepped his snack for school while H cooked dinner and then talked to his parents on the phone for two hours).
5) I don't care about S. I don't have the relationship with him I should after 2 years -- though H can't tell me what type of relationship I should have at this point. S and I get along very well.
6) H makes 5x what I do (true) so he expects more from me for that.
7) I never pick up on his clues when he needs help.

Some of his gripes have some legitimate basis. Some are totally out there. But he was very obviously dysregulating, getting worked up and making completely illogical statements and connections.

For instance, he said that I'd asked the night before what his plan was for the morning. "Well," he said, "what if I decide on Saturday morning to cancel the family get-together at our house? That's the same thing."

Huh? Yeah. I just let the crickets chirp on that one.

At one point, I said, "I can't talk about this any more tonight. I'm tired so I'm going to sleep in the guest room."

Obviously, that was a mistake. That made him really angry. He followed me and waved his wedding ring in my face, telling me I should take it because I didn't want to be married. When I went into the guest room and closed the door, he banged on it (with S sleeping in the next room with the door open). When I opened it to shut him up, he wouldn't let me close it back.

My trying to go to bed was met with more claims that I'm selfish and only think about me. That all that matters is if I'm tired and need to go to bed and how my work schedule will be.

He said all this is my fault, not his. It's me and my attachment to my family and my selfishness. My family is at fault, too. His family doesn't cause problems. And he's frustrated because he thinks my family should have to "suffer" like he is. If they don't, it's not fair.

As he started calming a bit, the topic of therapy came up. I said I thought couples therapy could help us with some of these issues. He was not receptive. I mentioned that I'd thought about doing solo therapy. That was not well-received either. He brought up the "You'll talk about me to a stranger." I suggested he could be there. He didn't like that either. He doesn't have the time to deal with that. I can do what I want but he won't like it and it will cause "big problems" for us.

Eventually, he calmed down and we went back to bed. Conversation continued on his end without my taking part. I fell asleep finally. I don't know if he did or not.

This morning he was better -- more calm -- and he's talking about getting anger management, which I encouraged. But he also said he thinks it's unfair for him to have to do therapy when my family doesn't since this is all their fault.

I didn't really respond to that one.

I didn't handle things the right way. I don't know if I should have just stopped talking and gone to sleep instead of trying to change rooms. Or if I should have gone ahead with the changing rooms and not caved. Or what I should have done. Tired, stressed, upset, confused. I was able to stay calm. I didn't justify or fight back on things. But it kept going and I couldn't get away from it or him.

Last night he threatened to call his attorney. I didn't respond. He says we can't go on like this forever wasting time. Said he thinks 3 months is a fair maximum time for him to see real changes in my family and how they and I do things. I disagreed and said everyone has work to do and these things take time -- at least a year. He didn't like that one either.

A part of me is tempted to just say, "Fine. You're right. Never going to change. You call your lawyer and I'll get one and let's just put us both out of our misery." Yet I can't pull that trigger. At least not yet.

You did the right thing by trying to go sleep somewhere else.  I would advise you to do it an hour and 59 minutes earlier.

You have to have restful sleep so you can make good decisions.  Period.  Unless someone needs to go to an emergency room... .talking about putting jobs first can wait... all that other crap can wait.

Has this EVER happened before?    This cannot become a pattern... .it WILL cause you relationship to deteriorate much more.


My gut says you need to be proactive and address this, but I'll wait on you to fill in relevant history.

This kind of thing used to be in my relationship.  I let it go on way too long.  Thankfully I seem to have gotten rid of the late night harangue... .

FF

It's never happened when we've been up in bed. It's happened at night before (his dysregulations are almost always at night) but it's been when we're in the living room hanging out on the couch. And, yes, it's gone on WAY too long. This was the first time I tried to walk away.

When I did it, it just fed into one of his complaints: I only think about myself and my needs. I don't care about his or his son's. Thing is, I can understand why he feels that way. I haven't handled some things the way I should and I've used some poor word choices -- or made some poor decisions. All that has added up in his mind. It's like he keeps a running tally. But I know it's not true. I try to be helpful and to take on chores and tasks to help out. I ask him what he needs. He says nothing. Then he gets mad that I'm not helping. I pointed that out and he seemed to understand and agree that he needs to be more vocal about what he needs.

But his, "I make $xxxxxx a year. I expect more from you for that" kind of rocked me back. My much-lower salary is a big bone of contention lately. I figured in a family, you're not always going to be equal and you both contribute in different ways. But I never looked at it as "You owe me for my supporting you." Something about that just feels crass. Sort of like "I paid for dinner. I expect you to put out."

My trying to leave and go to bed just made him follow me and made him escalate.

I don't know how to leave the situation and make that work. He was ready to knock down the door. And I think my sleeping in the other room would have driven an irreparable wedge in the relationship. I think last night I saw that I'm not quite ready to do that yet.

Therapy for me is a no-go now. I checked with my policy and while therapy used to be covered 100% as preventive care, it's not covered that way now. We'd be completely out of pocket until hitting our high deductible. He makes most of the money and he's against my seeing someone. This would be very expensive and I can't make him pay for something he doesn't believe in.

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Part 2 is found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=331645.msg13019755#msg13019755