BPDFamily.com

UPDATE:

In the same day i sent her the text i told you, and she said "Kiss", she texted me again later, saying:

"How have you been?"

I only saw the message the day after, because that was when i went to whatsapp.

I answered "I'm reasonable. And you?"

She answered that night, saying "I'm so so".

Then more messages: "i saw the mail you let here"

And: "I found a bracelet of yours. And some shirts"

"And also your backpack"

I saw the messages this morning.

What do you think?

And what do you sugest i do?

Last episodes (previous to this thread):

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=331684.0

It's easy to read this as reconnecting, but I would read it as grieving. She is in the process of removing your stuff from her place.

She sounds like she has mixed emotions about the breakup - but most people do. It's not easy to walk away from someone who cares about you.

I wouldn't read this as a point to jump in or connect. I also woudn't read it as a point to add cement to a breakup. I wouldn't read it as a good place to stall. It's a hard thing to react to.

I think I would thank her for letting you know and ask what would be the most convenient way for you to get those things.

This is a good time to be upbeat, responsive, and on her terms.  I wouldn't read it as anything more than a property exchange and that she is not angry with you.

Don't crowd her or pursue right now.

It will be interesting to see others ideas.

Skip,

Thk you for your opinion.

Since the situation as it is and was, i think it's too early to know what does she really want.

Before we break up, she was already talking about this stuff in particular. She had this stuff for me to pick it up. And she said she had this after i delivered her mail. You gave me something that is mine. I found something that is yours. Maybe it's related.

But it can be as you said.

I texted her and said as you would do. I thanked her and said that if she wanted, we could arrange things so i could get my stuff, when it was most convenient to her.

Right. She probably doesn't know what she wants. She is hurt (rightfully or wrongfully). She pushed you away which seemed right "in the moment". She is still communicating, but at a very cautious level (if she was "done" it would likely sound different).

It is best to be very conservative and shift from debating or challenging her request for space (which will have her on the defensive) to allowing her to have it all and feel her decision (and whatever doubts she may have).

You are getting on the same side by doing this. Better to be on the same side than opposing sides.

Make sense?

Yes, it does.

And that's what i am trying to do.

Let's see what happens next.

are you still friends on facebook?

Yes. We're still friends on Facebook. She accepted my invitation 2 weeks ago.

And a few days ago, she came complaining that i had a certain woman on Facebook, and that this kind of stuff makes her even more confused. I had to say that it is an old friend of mine and that i dont speak with her for ages.

And a few days ago she liked a post of mine ( just to call my atention, because it was nothing that she would like in particular )

( she liked my post, two days after she said she wanted to be apart of me, because she was hurt, i and said that i would leave her alone )

One or two weeks ago, she published this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Lh7rarF_I

It says that all relations have problems, but people need to work on it, not end relationships.

Also, it says on the video that "Social Networks" destroy relationships ( i think that in her imagination, that's what i am doing, with other women on social networks. )

Mixed behaviors... .

She is an experient woman. She had lot's of relationships, and she is very good playing games. And she does it a lot. So, we have to take that into consideration. She did played with several times. And most of the times, i just let it be.

Anyway, in the last note, i told her that she was more important to me then Social Networks, and i could do something about it to let her be more confident.

Maybe that helped her to be more in touch now.

Or maybe it was just because i said i accept her space, and we could be friends.

The fact is, that she started to speak more.

I dont know.

i remember. no interaction on facebook since then, im guessing?


im not sure id read anything into the video... .if anything, she might be suggesting that you werent putting in the work.

i agree with Skip that the situation here is tenuous. you built some good will i think, with your recent message to her about being friends, though it will take more, over time. its best to let her lead here... .every time you dont push, chase, or over pursue, it will send a strong message that might make her feel safe about further approaching you.

Yes, i will wait for her to take initiatives... .

I did everything i could, now it's up to her.

Try to think in more gray terms. Maybe you are doing things that don't work well in this relationship - like JADE - lots of members do that. Stay centered in this.

For know you want to follow her lead and pursue her about 50% of how she pursues you (which is 1 out of 10 right now).

I's really up to both of you to come into alignment - not her to fix it - and you have to be safe as once removed says.

Your comments to her about social media were JADE. Why not open a thread and ask members for alternate ways you could have reacted to that situation. After all , it was traumatic to her - if there is going to be a future, you have to read and respond constructively to her - being right is not the point.

Think  |---> before you can make anything better, you have to stop making it worse.

Skip,

When i say i did everything i could, i'm speaking about this actual moment. What i mean is that i have to let her make the advances now ( just as you said ). But i know i did make some mistakes.

About the relationship itself, i know that are plenty of themes that i can improve, to decrease the drama and to improve the relationship. The way i react sometimes, taking things personally, dealing as if it was really important to know who is right, the blame game, etc.

I read "Walking on eggshells" and other BPD literature in the begining of this relationship, so, many times i managed to do things right. But i couldn't control my emotions all of the time. And i failed in many situations.

Can you explain me what JADE means?

Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain

you did some of it in your post 

generally speaking, most of us do this constantly, and it only fuels conflict.

why do we do it?

often, we think if we just use the right words, state our point of view more clearly, that we will be heard, that our partners will "get it", when the issue is really more about listening, and how we communicate. sometimes its because we need to be "right".

or because we are defending ourselves against some charge, accusation, or complaint from our partners.

or because we are trying to "lay down the law".

what happens when we JADE? it can fuel circular arguments, it can be dismissive or invalidating, it can validate the invalid, it can make us look defensive about something we arent even guilty of.

does it ever make sense to explain your point of view? yes, of course... .once, twice tops. more than that, and you are probably heading to circular argument territory.

its one of the best first communication skills to learn, because its more about not doing something than learning how to do something, yet you can still start practicing it right now, with anybody.

make sense?

Yes, makes plenty of sense.

Sometimes me and her had very nice conversations, where i just listened to her. And she became more calm.

In this kind of relation, i have to accept has she is, with her condition. And accept a roll of caretaker. I did that in some phases. but if i expect to have a balanced relationship, the frustration will rise up. When that happens, i get emotionally activated, and it's harder do just listen to her.

What do you advice me to do, when she falsely acuse me of cheating, or of speaking with someone woman facebook, or something like that?

yes, its why a strong support system is critical, and why you need healthy outlets for that frustration, and why you also need ways of meeting your needs... .i have some friends i go to when i want to laugh, other friends i go to if i need a shoulder to cry on. its why sometimes you just need to take a healthy time out, sort out your thoughts, and come back to discuss things when youre both calm.


need more specifics here, but this is where listening is key, and context is everything.

for example (only example), maybe she does this at times that she senses you pulling away from her or being inattentive. its about listening not only to her words literally, but what might be driving them. https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

or (example) maybe she wants to fight about it, when doing so will only get her riled up.

maybe it would help for her to meet those people, where you are friends as a couple.

theres also a good tool where you can both listen, help her feel heard, and not JADE. its the power of asking validating questions: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0

Most times we started a fight, i tried to withdraw to another place. But that fueled her abandment fears.

She started sending me lots of texting. I answered and said that i would be back when she was more calm.

With that i prevented a lot of fights, but she hated the idea.

Also, sometimes i could tell her that i was doing this just to give us time to calm down. And sometimes i didn't because i was too angry.

I will read that materials  Thks

UPDATE:

My last move that i shared with you was that i said to her that if she wanted, we could arrange a time to me to get my things back, or i could send some friend to pick things up. She decides what is better to her, i said.

She answered today, one day later, saying "I think we are perfectly capable of doing that ourselves, dont you? If you want, we can arrange"

Note that she didn't said that she wanted me to pick my things up, in the first place. She just said that she found them. I just concluded that she wanted me to pick things up, but i don't know if it was that that she had in mind.

I answered "Ok", and "How are you?".

We are speaking every day now, even if it's just a few lines, but things are still very uncertain.

She doesnt want to be another person to pick it up, she wants to be me, wich maybe is good.

And also, i didn't get the idea that me picking things up was something that she really wants for now.

If i will have to face her, it will not be easy to me. It will be a tense situation, and i will be nervous, since we don't see each other for almost a month now.

I dont know if she will ask me to go to the shop and just pick things up or if she wants to speak to me.

If she wants to speak to me, she may have several things in mind: 1) confirm the break-up; 2) be nasty, complaining about all stuff that hurted her; 3) try to be closer; 4) all of the above;

Number 2 would actually be good, because she would pour out much of the anger, and if i validate her feelings, she could feel better afterwards. But it would be tense, since i wouldn't know the outcome.

I will need advice when this happens.

I started the reading of "I don't have have to make everything all better", wich seems to me a very good book about validanting others feelings.

any update? whats the conversation like? what are you learning from the book?

UPDATE:

From my last question: "How are you?", she took almost two days to answer.

- I am blonde.

( She said to me several times that she would paint her hair blonde )
( She didn't answered if she was alright or not. This seemed to me like a kind of an opening up )

Next day I responded:

- :o
- I don't believe it
- Show me

In the same day, she answered:

- It's real!
- when i have time

( I mean, really, how much time does it take to send a photo ? This shows me that she is still hurt and giving me coldness - she doesnt have time to me -, after it seemed that she was opening up by saying that she was blonde, and speak to me almost on a daily basis. She didn't said anything more about the stuff i have over her place. )

( I really didn't expect her to send me a photo this soon. That would be to much opening. )

I responded:

- Ok.

This was 2 days ago, and she didn't answered anymore.

There has been 1 month that she broke up and we dont see each other. I'm going very slowly as you adviced, and let her take the lead, but this doesnt seem to improve much, and i'm slowly giving up hope.

Maybe i need to continue to have patience.

Some voice in my mind says to me that i should pursue her, because that is what she is expecting, to prove my love and to make her feel more condident. So, sometimes it's not easy to refrain that urge.

I read somewhere else in this forum that this phases of hurt takes generally from 1 to 3 months to heal. Is that true? Is that why they call this the "Long Game" ?

What do you think?

PS: I am in the last pages of the book "I don't have to make everything all better" about validation of feelings and enjoying it. Learned a lot and i think i could make things much easier in the relationship by using this principles. I would like to have the oportunity to do it, but it depends on her giving me some oportunity.

This level of communication is just checking in to see if you are still there and letting you know she is still there.

You may be still over-reaching. She is cutting you off.

You: How are you doing
Her: no response.

You: Send me a picture 
Her: when I have time.
You: OK
Her: no response

I'd back it off - maybe post and discuss responses here.

Her: I am blonde.
You: bet that looks great.

If it ends there, fine. If she responds, great.

Skip:

She responds, but sometimes it takes 1 or 2 days to respond. I also have been taking 1 day to respond, because i don't go often to Whatsapp.

But yes, i will bring here new responses so we can workout.

Thk you

Two questions:

1- why does she wants to know if i'm still here and letting me know that she is still there? Does that mean that, altought she is angry / hurt / cold, she didn't yet totally gave up, and wants me to be here if she realize she wants to return?

2- What are the advantages of not over-reaching her?

Over reaching will be seen by her as clingy, weak, unattractive.


It's hard to breakup. It helps deal with the insecurities.

She doesn't hate you and she hasn't locked the door. Good. This is not over.  But the more you push at her the more she will pull back right now.

You're seeing it.

I ask because i read several statments from diagnosed BPD, and lots of them says that when they push away, they just want the other to pursue and prove that he loves her, so them feel secure. If they doesnt do it, its because they don't really love them.

And with my gf, i saw her ex- pursuing her like crazy and she liked it and went back to him several times (before we were together)

Even when i pursue her, weeks ago, she always responded nicely. One time she called me 3 am. But then, days later, she pushed away a little further. Seems to me like she was thinking about getting together, but when se faced that possibility, she couldnt handle the hurt inside and pushed away.

Other possibility is that she gives me a little candy, and then goes back and see if i pursue her more.

In our relationship, she was almost always the one to pursue me.

That should tell you everything.

Sometimes i feel the urge to send her some text with a validation phrase, like i should have done before.

I did it several times along the relationship, but i could do it much more times and i didn't. I also could do it more after the breakup.

Something like:

"I'm sorry you feel so hurt. it should not be easy for you."

I think it could aliviate some of her hurt.

But maybe now it's not the ideal timming for that. Is it?

Maybe i'll have to wait for her to reach out and open up a little bit, before i make some validation.

What do you think?

PS: We always "speak" in Whatsapp, since we broke up. I'm sick of going there waiting for her messages, or her reaching out. So i dont go to whatsapp two days now. She has other ways of reaching me: texting, calling, messenger, etc.

I feel better this way, and also, i think that she knows that she hurts me, when she says something to cut me off, or keeping me waiting for her. I think it's a way of expressing her anger.

Do you think it's fine i don't go to Whatsapp anymore?

I'm feeling guilty, because most of the times she wanted to speak about her hurt, i didn't validate her feelings and i JADE. I wish I could fix it. Had an oportunity to fix it. To do it better. And i think maybe stating something validating her hurt, could smooth her up.

I don't think anything like this is going to help right now. It will sound like, "I'm sorry you are mentally ill, hope that helps us get back together".  Her feelings might be "Pytagoras did __ and I don't feel good hanging with him"... .and now you are saying its her issue.

It might help to think about what it is that about you that is not working for her. Did you do something? Is she bored? Has her interest/focus changed (new hobby)?


Sey up the push alerts.

She never said she wanted to breakup. And she said she loves me and always will. What she always said is that she was feeling really really hurt, so hurt that she couldn't even speak and so she wanted distance.

What i think that wasnt working:

- I wasn't so patient has i was before, and i had really hard time listening to her complaints, and not validanting her feelings. She told me a lot of times "This are my feelings. I have the right to feel them" and "you dont listen to me".

- I wasn't so present has i was in the begining.

- She started suspicious about other women, mainly after i returned to Facebook. I didn't wanted her to see my conversations nor did i wanted her to be my friend on Facebook. I said to her that i suffered a lot with her suspicions on the past and when i saw she was better, all could return. She was always speaking about this. Mainly, all her complaints were about this.

- She invited me to live with her in her new house and i didn't manifest much interest in that, altough didn't recuse.

- I criticized her a lot. And i think she started to think that i was not happy with her.

My idea was not to say something that would say that is her fault, or her issue. Was to say that i am really sorry that i didn't validate her feelings in the past, and validate her hurt feelings right now. Because since we brokeup, she told me several times that she is hurt and i never validated her hurt properly.

Skip,

It seems to me that you are assumig that I was/am a clingy guy and that she is breaking up because she is bored of it.

I was the one who was more detached.

I believe that she thinks the opposite. That i did not loved her and was detaching.

After the breakup i started suffering and pursued her a little, yes.

I'm feeling guilty, because i was hurt and i couldn't be a patient, loving guy has i was before, i didn't validate her feelings. and i were more distanced. But i still loved her.

I already told her that i would like to fix things and there were some aspects that i know that i can improve. But i never really validate her hurt.

My native language is not english and i note that sometimes my translations of the messages are not faithful to the original, and sometimes it losts some of their meaning... .

I'm not making that assumption 

You (and I) don't know the reason why she is being distant, right? We only know that she is has not cut you off and she has not invited you in. It's limbo now. She flutters in and flutters out at her convenience.

This is the hardest thing for men to deal with. You don't want to do anything to push her away and at the same time you don't want to look like some worthless sap who will jump for breadcrumbs. There is very little you can do in this situation to improve things and a lot you can do to make it worse.

Ideally, when she opens up a bit more, it would be good to have lunch and ask her what is wrong and listen.  Then think - maybe chat here - and then decide what to do.

In the mean time, just be very nonchalant for a few weeks, if she doesn't pull more on you, you could ask for lunch.  If she says no, I would start thing in terms of exploring other options.

Does that help?

I agree with what you've said.  Thk you.

Yes, it's a very difficult position to be in. I should go meet her face-to-face and talk with her, as she already tried to do with me. Maybe that's what she wanted to. I think that if i did that in the begining, she would be pleased. But now it passed 1 month.

So, no validation texting ?

*mod*

I am locking this thread as it has now reached the posting limit. The original poster is welcome to start a new thread to continue the discussion.