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This thread continues from here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=332485.0

Well, I was feeling pretty good until she e-mailed me again saying "With that being said, regarding my apology, I still don't want to see you or talk to you again. All you do and all you've ever done is make me feel alone and rejected. You are critical, judgmental, and mean.
I won't budge on this."
Yes, I thought the ice had thawed a bit but looks like she still has her heels dug in. I was going to sit tight not expecting she would blast back at me so soon.
Ok, so do I respond with another validation on her feelings? Seemed to work before but she is pretty hardened in her feeling against me. If I waited a day and say something like... .I can see that you have strong feelings about the past. Again, I am sorry if I made you feel this in anyway in the past. Your feeling alone and rejected  must be terrible. I would not want to feel this way and would never want to have made you feel this way".
I would like to respond and reiterate that I am validating her feelings. Not sure if she will ever get over this but I want to stay the course with the validation.   By not responding I feel she will continue to think I do not care. Maybe this is a lost cause.

I bet that hurt to receive another email like that. She is saying she's standing firm, won't budge, letting you know that her apology wasn't meant to imply she wants you in her life. That's ok, her choice.

I believe keeping the conversation going is a good idea. Maybe focus on what she's said in this latest email and how you can acknowledge her (current) position. I put the word "current" in parenthesis because, for her, as she's feeling right now, this minute, this is forever. The "current" was for you, not something to say to her. I hope that made sense.

How do you think you could convey that you've heard and respect her position?

Don't give up hope, jones. The ice is ten feet thick right now, but she's still communicating, talking to you, even though she said she doesn't want to 

Hang in there, you're bullet proof, remember? 

~ OH

Jones54 - I am feeling your struggle right now.  Nothing you say seems to be what she needs to hear or gets you back to where you were (when you felt good about communications with her).  I/We (my husband as well) are in a similar position.  I feel the same way about if I don't respond, will this just reaffirm that I don't care?  I am concerned about how long to wait before validating her feelings or reaching out to her between attacks.  As well, I am at a point where, is this a lost cause too.  

When I hear her attack against you, I also hear that she is unable to handle that her life, choices, actions are a disappointment to both herself and you.  I often wonder if that is why our daughter gets so angry with her dad ... .they had many similarities and would text each other for the best sales on grapes or nectarines each week or how much to put into an investment.  I wonder if she feels she has let him down by NOT fulfilling her goal of retiring along with him. (she's udD28 ... .but had some lucrative investments ... .they had a lot of 'fun' discussing) all of that is gone, and she accuses him of similar things that your daughter says to you.  

AND, I also have come to believe that if our daughter truly wanted us out of her lives, she wouldn't spend her time and energy attacking us via email/msg/etc.  She blocks us and changes her phone number, but when desperate, has reached out time and time again.  My husband no longer bites (he can't take the nasty attacks - which are pretty vicious to him), I still do ... .but with boundaries.  I forgive, but I don't forget.  I'm very guarded.  I suspect you may be experiencing similar things but she is still communicating.

I wish I had the answer for you too ('cause then maybe I'd have the answer for ME!).  

I like your thoughts.  I may use something similar, but I think I would have a hard time saying sorry ... .again and again ... .and would be tempted to use those words, but even one AGAIN, might be misconstrued in my world, I suspect.

I'm looking forward to seeing what others with more experience suggest/think.

I really hope it's not a lost cause for either/any of us.  BUT, I'd kinda like to know how and when to decide whether it is.

Ace

what parts of what she said are valid?

have you ever been (not necessarily in general) any of those things?

OR, if I have ever done anything it would have been to get angry with her due to her alcohol and drug use (frustration). Her perception of me making her feel alone is ALL related to the boundaries I had due to her drug use. I would not let her live with me because I did not trust her. She has said I abused her (threw her against a wall when she was 6 years old!) . This is totally false and so bothersome that she even says this. Her perception of the past is done so it fits her story to be the victim. She has confabulated on  many occasions about both me and her mother. She then posted it on Facebook.  That is what makes this difficult for me to validate her feelings (even though what she says about the past is not true). It is all her interpretation which in a warped way I can understand.
 Ace, I do feel you are in the same position. I agree that there is something there that makes me feel she does not mean what she says. Deep down she feels she has been hurt by me but she has done these negative texts for over a year (sparing the time she was in rehab and our relationship was very good). My daughter also changed her phone number. My DD was very close to me in the past (and not her mother). She knows that I struggle wanting a relationship and has always manipulated me and my feelings. I honestly feel she wants me to now feel rejected and abandoned. 
OH, the only way I feel I can express my self to her is to be contrite. But as Ace states, to keep saying the same thing over and over would get difficult. My therapist said before that I should just leave her alone and hope someday she will come around. I guess the only reason I am doing this now is because before I had never tried using validation. When I got the apology, I thought maybe there was hope. Maybe not.

have you ever been critical, judgmental, or mean?

OR, in my opinion I have not been judgmental  or critical. If my getting angry at her for her drug use is mean I guess I have been for that. All of my actions of getting upset in the past were due to her drug use. Every parent that I know of (I go to a lot of alanon meetings) has done the same thing until you finally understand you did not cause it, you cannot control it and you cannot cure it. Took me awhile to understand this. Her mother actually is the one with a bigger temper but she is not critical of her, just me. I am far from a perfect parent but she feels I have not treated her fairly in the past and it most every time comes down to my not allowing her in my home due to the drugs. I have never criticized her or passed judgement on her. Did I get mad with the never ending chaos of the alcohol and drug use? Yes. But I always tried to build up her self esteem and encourage her (because I am sure did not feel good about her self). 

validation is about being open to the validity of another persons perspective, and how they feel. i can see you trying to do this.

lets set aside throwing her against a wall. if that is something you did not do, there is no validity to it.

she feels abandoned for being sent to boarding school and for being sent to rehab. you feel justified in doing it. there isnt right or wrong here. you each have a perspective and justification for it.

a member here once asked another member "do you want to be right, or do you want to repair your relationship". i think when we ask ourselves that question, there is a breakthrough, and we can move into problem solving mode.

what do you think?

OR, She has said in the past that I always felt I was right. I am sure that is because I tried to explain my perspective as to why I did what I did (rehab and boarding school) to help her. I understand this denied the validation of her feelings. I will continue to try to validate her feelings but it is difficult when she continues to play the victim. Her mother and I have spoken about this at length. In the 12 step AA program the person has to take responsibility for what has happened in their life related to their addiction. It would be so beneficial to her if she took these steps to move forward in her life. We just are discouraged because she has not done this and all it does is hold her back from moving forward. I struggle as to when you should "throw the towel in". If you continue to try to validate her feelings (and I am more than willing to do this) but she continues to lash out how terrible she was treated by me, there has to be a point when you wonder if you are making any progress. I guess I will just have to wait and see.
Of note, she did email her mother yesterday and said she got her medicaid back and was going to again seek out a therapist and said she was no longer mad at her mother. She has promised on multiple occasions to get a therapist over the past 6 months but never has followed thru. Hoping she will follow thru this time.

Here's to hoping she will get therapy now that she has medicaid. 

I think validation is going to take a while to show big lasting results jones.  It took a while for the relationship to get where it is it is going to take more time to change it.  Remember though, a lot of these changes may help your daughter but they will for sure help you.     The addiction is definitely complicating things but I am not sure (though I am no expert) that accepting responsibility for actions can be done in the same way for someone with a co-morbid diagnosis of a PD.  You probably know more about that than I do.  What has your T said or the people at AA about the PD complicating matters?  Sorry if you have covered this elsewhere.  I am familiar with your story but fairly new to it as well. 

Perhaps the most effective thing you can do for your daughter right now is not to contact her at all. You seem to be the punching bag that is blamed for all her problems. If you were not to contact her at all, she may gradually have to take more responsibility, hopefully turning inward and taking responsibility for her own recovery. This is so hard when you are her father, and only want the best for your daughter. I used to work with people with addictions and I came to the realization that I was harming my clients by being more concerned about their recovery than they were. It was so painful for me to see how my clients were destroying their lives, and were likely to have a very sad ending to their lives, yet I had to become more ambivalent to be able to help them. I can imagine how hard it would be for you to be less concerned about your daughter's recovery because you are her father, and she means the world to you.

this might be described as a "tough love" approach.

highly sensitive people, addicts, people with BPD traits, will usually struggle with a tough love approach. why? because they generally lack the tools and skills to take responsibility as we see it, to affect change on their own, to "get their  :cursing: together".

they resent themselves for that. in turn, they resent others who push them toward it.

i might focus less on helping her recover, or to get her to take the steps to move forward in her life, and more on repairing the relationship between you and your daughter - make that the focus. if you are able to do that (and it will require a willing participant in her), you will be in a much, much stronger position to support her in recovery and build trust in doing so.

between the lines, there has been some progress jones54. the initiative to get into therapy. it may be difficult to see, but to some extent, this entire recent exchange you had with her. its a baby step, but i suspect it went further than we can all see.


the best way to counter this is to show otherwise. show her youre listening.

Hi jones,

I've been following along and want to say I'm rooting for you and your daughter; keep up the good work. I echo what OR says,


~ OH

Thanks everyone for your input and help. I really appreciate it.
The only thing I ever heard from a therapist is that being dual diagnosed with both addiction and BPD will make it much harder to stay in recovery.
I know I have to be extremely patient in this situation. This has been going on for 15+ years and I should never expect this to be better overnight. Her agreement to go to therapy is a big step forward assuming she goes.
Her mother and I have not focused on being involved in her addiction recovery for quite awhile. Especially over the past year when in essence we stopped supporting in any way with her addiction. Our focus now is on reconciliation. One of the difficulties with this dual diagnose is when you stop enabling they may feel you are abandoning them. A fine line.
I could simply leave her alone but since I have never tried validation I feel I should at least give it a try. Obviously if she is not receptive to this I guess I will need to step back because if I am in contact with her and all I get is verbal abuse I need to take care of myself. I agree if we can have a better relationship, her mother and would be willing to help in her addiction recovery (but not to enable).
I decided to email her earlier today. The essence of my email was that it has taken awhile for me to understand her feelings but I finally do. I said I did things in the past in hopes of helping her (rehab,etc.)but if it made her feel abandoned or rejected I was sorry. I apologized for not understanding her feelings.
Maybe too much being sorry but this is the first time I said anything to her saying I finally understood where she was coming from with how she has felt all these years.
It may fall on deaf ears but at least I validated how she has felt for a long time. I am hoping she will accept this.

apologies, when they are both sincere and validating the valid, are disarming, they stop the bleeding, they build relationships.

it wont be a panacea, but jones, i think you have likely made significant progress.

let us know if/how she responds.

I agree with once removed that you have likely made progress.

I have learned from reading here that progress is sometimes measured differently than usual.  Regardless, I think you have planted some seeds.

I really like this, jones. This is only slightly related but I'd like to share. My BFF's mom is uBPD. We've talked a lot about how incapable her mom is of seeing things from BFF's perspective. BFF has said, "If I could hear her say she understands why I feel the way I do, that would mean so much, it would show me she is capable of change."

As Music Ace said to me in another thread, Stay the course!

~ OH

Well, She finally responded:
"No, you don't understand. You don't get it. Saying that you're sorry I feel a certain way isn't a real apology. You are incapable of apologizing for anything or admitting that you are wrong.
Leave me alone. Don't ever contact me again for any reason. I am done. "
I have tried my best to validate. Not sure what else I can do at this point. She is determined to not give in. I know she does this trying to manipulate my feelings.
Not sure if I should even respond to this. Time to step back?

it might be a good time to step back if she is expressly saying dont contact me for any reason. it shows respect for her wishes.

if you do want to reply (you know her best) i might reply with something like:


"youre right. i want to better understand how you feel. i hope to, someday."

maybe something about respecting her wishes, and leave it at that.

it could also be taken as a last word kinda thing, and you might not wanta go there.

Good luck Jones

As is often the case, you are in a no win situation.

So, my recommendation is to do whatever YOU can live with.  Tomorrow morning,  when you wake up ... .you want, need, and deserve to be able to say, think, and feel: 

I have done what I could.
I have done what I think is best.
I have done the best I could.

Today, I can walk with my head held high - no matter how sad my heart is.

Ace

Hi jones54

that sounds really deeply painful and can cause you to want to sort of force a response - I have been there!

It sounds like its important to respect her request, but also to realize that 'ever' is not a really mature thing to say.  I would respond something like

"I will respect your wishes for space but I deeply care about you and would like to be able to check in to make sure you are ok.  I will not contact you for at least [put amount of time you are comfortable with, probably at least a week or so]"

Then stick to that, and in a week or two or whatever amount of time you said, send her a short text maybe something like

"thinking of you, I hope you are doing well, would love to hear from you"

without demanding a reply.  Then wait the same length of time before contacting her again.

If later she does request things of you, you could bring up that you would like some form of mutually respectful communication norms, like that you will be in brief touch once a week and both will be responsible to reply to each other in at least a brief way.

Doing this is probably extremely hard!  To pull it off you probably will have to find some other really strong emotional focus.  I recommend volunteering with refugee children, or other people who really need things and that you can fulfill their needs through efforts.  It is not using them as you will be fulfilling a genuine and deep need for help, toys, donations, materials, attention and more.  This also helps me to get perspective on what is really needed in this world, and sometimes that is not for me to focus on my dd's excessively!

Good luck!

I'm so sorry, jones. I know how hard you've been working to validate your daughter's feelings - looking at your past behavior in an attempt to understand her perspective.  

You've gotten some good feedback from Music Ace and Incadove, none of this is easy, that's for sure!


Not to be harsh, I'm playing devil's advocate here, and I can see her point. There's a difference between saying, "I'm sorry you feel hurt that I broke your favorite toy" and saying, "I'm sorry I broke your favorite toy."

I totally understand your justifications for sending her to rehab and refusing to support her financially (money/shelter) while she's using.

You can't change the past; if you did or said anything that resulted in her feeling criticized or judged, or that was mean, there's no erasing that memory/feeling.

Years ago, in the middle of a heated argument with my DD, I told her, "F___ you!" I regret that to this day; it went against my value of being respectful. In family therapy last year, I apologized for that specifically, "I'm sorry I said xxx. I was mad and lost my cool. It was disrespectful and I feel terrible about it." (a little bit of the J in JADE'ing here but that's before I found BPD Family  :()

I'm not suggesting that you respond, or not respond (for the time being), there's no pat answer for this stuff, as you know, but can you think of anything you've done or said that deserves an apology? Did you ever say, "F___ you?" for example?  


You're right about that and I hope you are not too discouraged by her latest email, jones. You've been working very hard and will experience many more peaks and valleys ahead as you continue to work toward the reconciliation that you hope for with your DD.

As OR and Harri said in earlier replies,

These words, from LoveOnTheRocks in one of my earlier posts, have been popping up in my head when I feel discouraged:

"There are a lot of days between now and forever."

Sending hugs and strength to you, jones.

~ OH

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate your input and support (as always). I decided to sit tight and not respond because honestly I was unsure what to say and felt anything I said would just stir the pot.
Well, she e-mailed me last night and said that she forgave me of everything and said she did not want to be angry any longer. She hoped I was doing well.
Not sure where that all came from. Her mother said she e-mailed her saying essentially the same thing.
I realize she could turn on a dime and go the other way. I feel I should respond to her and am thinking of just thanking her and hope she is doing well also. Not sure if I should bring up trying to validate her feelings at this time? She did say "even though you have never apologized, I forgive you". I did apologize last time, she just did not believe I was sincere.

Wow! Isn't it odd that when we finally get what we thought we were hoping for, we're still so darned unsure of what to do next.

I totally get the trepidation- how do I respond?

I'm glad she responded to YOU. It sounds basically civil (maybe a tad patronizing?- I forgive you even if you didn't apologize the way I WANTED) ... .but she responded.

I still find civil responses unnerving,  I'm just never sure when the next explosion will come. But I am learning to accept the peace for this moment and for however long it lasts. BUT BUT BUT I am also NOT (no longer) going to make a big deal about the positive ... .like I'm trying not to make a big deal when the negative happens. I think, for me and my undD28, making a big deal either way may add pressure. If I make a big deal of her change of heart/face, then I am also clearly noting how awful she was or the situation was before.  If I am thankful and appreciative without going over the top (I have been known-well known- to do this), perhaps she will feel like I am validating yet still not being judgemental?

That's how I'm planning to decide how to respond to my daughters most recent email.

I am not sure that is the 'right' approach for you at all ... .but with our situation's similarities, I thought I'd let you know where my thoughts were going.

Just another perspective.

Wishing you peace ... .and wise words.

Ace

Lovely, jones54!  It sounds like she wants to move forward and stop digging into old wounds, that is fantastic!

I would respond warmly and positively, thanking her and not going into the apology/not apology thing, just ask her something else about her life that is likely to be positive!  Or some other happy memory/appreciation if you can think of one!

Great news, jones! Thanks for keeping us updated.

~ OH

Thanks everyone. Ace, I agree about the trepidation as to what to say. Not getting overly excited with her note is good advice because tomorrow she could do a 180 and start the negative comments. Incadove, I agree there is no use bringing up the debate of whether I apologized or not. All that would do is start an argument back. I will let that go. I struggle with not getting too verbose in my response. I decided to just thank her for the note and say that I hope she was doing well also. I felt I needed to acknowledge her forgiveness note and not try to get into anything else. Honestly, I am not sure what else to say back. I know she wants to stay in control of the relationship at this point so if I suggested anything else she might push back. Maybe not but I just decided to keep it simple. I ended it with, love you, Dad.
I hope I did not need to say more. Again, I felt the most important thing was to reply and acknowledge her, and reciprocate that I hoped all was well with her. Her mother said she was going to do the same, simple and short. I will keep you posted.

Wishing you well Jones. Let's hope for a response you are comfortable with.

Ace

Hi jones,

Thinking of you and hoping you're doing well.

~ OH

Thanks Ace and OH. I have not heard anymore from her which in a way is good. I spoke with my therapist yesterday and he said he was surprised that she did not write again to ask for something. Her mother and I are hoping she finally understands that we cannot support her financially and she needs to now take care of herself. Yet, we both suspect that she is now being taken care of by her older male friend. That is out of our control so we just have to accept it. Not sure what else to do from here. I guess just take it slow. It is somewhat of a dichotomy for me. Still want to move forward in a relationship with her but at the same time getting close to her brings more chaos into my life. I have thought that if she asks to reconnect that maybe her mother and I should request that we all sit with a therapist first since so much has happened over the past year. Just a thought.

I can relate to the want to move forward yet being anxious about the chaos it could bring.



Your message was loving and non-reactive to her words, "even though you have never apologized," no JADE'ing, invalidating, etc. Can't go wrong with taking it slow. If/when she is in contact again, you'll have that much more time behind you to learn and grow 

~ OH

I like your idea of having you and her mother sit down with your daughter and a therapist if your daughter decides she wants to reconnect with you. With a person with BPD, there are often too many unfounded accusations and bad behaviors that take place with family members when there is no qualified professional to monitor the interactions. I continue to admire your courage and caring with regards to your daughter after how she has treated you and her mother.

Thanks OH. As always I appreciate your input and support. I agree that with giving it time hopefully there will be a benefit when we finally reconnect.
Zachira, I have not discussed this with her mother (wanting to sit with a therapist first if she wants to reconnect) but plan to soon. A bit fearful if we did sit down alone her anger would start back up and we would go back to square one. Sometimes I think we all have to reassess our feelings (being too anxious to reconnect) and think about what is best in the long run. Thanks as always for your support.
When she decides to try to reconnect I will post.

Please consider posting even before she tries to reconnect. Having a support group alongside you is still a benefit in times of "calm."

We are here, 24/7, and would love to hear how you're doing, jones   

~ OH

Hi OH,
Thanks for the note. Neither I or her mother have heard from her (her mother said she did email her to see if they could be friends again on Facebook... .I am not on Facebook). At this point I have been feeling better. Maybe it is being away from the chaos or just that she ended the last communication on a positive note (which has been so rare for such a long time). Don't get me wrong, when I open up my e-mail every day I still have this sunken feeling that she will have e-mailed me again with something negative. I guess that is just a trigger (opening the e-mail). Her mother and I remain on the same page. It is our feeling that she is safely housed with a friend and we are pretty sure she is sober (the person we suspect she is living with is in recovery and would not tolerate her using). Sad thing is we really do not know much more... .whether she is working or what she plans for herself for the near future. She will be 34 yo this Spring so we both feel that even if we do not know what is going on, it is high time she figures her life out without us being involved.  We are just hoping she is making good choices. I guess maybe at some point she will reach out to us. Maybe we are estranged in a sense but we both look at it like we are both taking a break from each other. Just trying to remain hopeful she will reconnect with us sometime and at that point will have her life in better order.

Thanks for checking in, jones  :hi:

I'm hearing a lot of acceptance in your post - you're feeling better away from the chaos, that makes sense to me!

As they say, "no news is good news" and it seems to be true for our children, at least it is for mine 

I get what you mean about checking your email and being anxious that there will be a negative coming from your DD. Another member here had a plan in place for dealing with potential negative contact, though her plan was about texts, not emails, and involved a dedicated telephone number. She would check once a week, in her therapy appointment.


Awesome 

~ OH