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Mod note: This discussion was split from the following thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=332874.0


Very true. It feels like a tightrope. I want to be fair to H and I don't want my emotions and feelings to cloud things, especially since they're so strong right now. But, at the same time, they are a part of the puzzle. And some of those feelings (fear, hurt, anger) are vital.

For instance, in an incident that happened a couple of weeks ago, H blocked my path in the kitchen and when I tried to side-step him, he side-stepped too. Later, he laughed it off, saying I could have just turned around and walked the other way since I wasn't backed into a corner or against a wall. That's true. But in that moment, I felt blocked. I felt trapped. I felt that if I turned, he would step ahead of me and block me there too. So, in that instance, feelings were at least as important as facts, I think.

Well, beyond how you felt about that incident, the fact is that he blocked you and side-stepped to block you again. He was very likely aware that this was an aggressive, threatening body posture, since he is considerably bigger than you. (Boys learn this stuff early and if he played sports in school, there's no way that he could claim it was an innocent move.) Laughing it off is deceitful.

True.

He has very strong opinions about DV. Just last week, we had a discussion about it and he went on and on about how awful it is, how he doesn't understand why anyone would treat their partner that way or why any victim would put up with it. I agreed and recited statistics and psychological studies, all the while thinking "Wow. You really have no clue, do you?" I almost felt like laughing -- in a horrified, sad sort of way.

I honestly think he can't bring himself to admit to himself or to anyone else what it is he does. Maybe on some level, he's aware, but I think that, ultimately, he's in denial and cannot accept the fact that he's abusive himself. I look for signs that he's deliberately lying and deflecting but can't find them. Instead, I see someone who's frantically searching for excuses and hiding from reality. But then maybe I'm giving him too much credit -- or not enough.

I honestly think he can't bring himself to admit to himself or to anyone else what it is he does. Maybe on some level, he's aware, but I think that, ultimately, he's in denial and cannot accept the fact that he's abusive himself. I look for signs that he's deliberately lying and deflecting but can't find them. Instead, I see someone who's frantically searching for excuses and hiding from reality. But then maybe I'm giving him too much credit -- or not enough.


I'm sure there's a lack of self-awareness. At the same time, pwBPD have tremendous shame and that, I believe, keeps them from putting two and two together.

I've told my P, who years ago saw my H and I for MC, that I've been participating on this site, but of course I haven't told my H. She asked me if I've had any close calls where he might have seen what I've written. But then she said, that it would be unlikely that he would even think it referred to him (since I've got a BPDx and a BPD mother.) There is truly that disconnect.

I think that there are glimmers of self-awareness that are quickly damped down. Such as your husband laughing about blocking you. A part of him knew exactly what he was doing.

That's very true. That's partly why I haven't really tried to discuss some things with him. He won't see it. At best, he'll get defensive.

I do the same thing during circular arguments -- or at least try to. I stay calm. Haven't figured out how to disengage or leave yet without him following me and getting even more angry.

Cat, good point about the shame. I pick up on a lot of that. In his better moments, he'll talk about his "crazy behavior" and how much it scares him that it might drive me away.

But, yeah, very little self-awareness. Hence our DV conversation with NO realization or recognition on his part.

I do the same thing during circular arguments -- or at least try to. I stay calm. Haven't figured out how to disengage or leave yet without him following me and getting even more angry.

What works for me if I cannot invent an excuse for which I need to immediately attend to, is to say, "You've made some really good points. I need to think about what you've said and I'll get back to you in 20 minutes. Meanwhile I'm going to _________ (you could say, for instance, do a bit of yoga, meditate, clean up the kitchen... .whatever). Then I'll be back and we can talk some more."

I'm not afraid of having my husband think I'm a bit odd.   He knows I am. And 20 minutes is about the time it takes for the amygdala to calm down and return to equilibrium.

This is a good article about managing our emotions during conflict: https://hbr.org/2015/12/calming-your-brain-during-conflict

Yes, I've tried that. It just makes him more angry and I get the "You're so selfish! You only care about yourself and what you want!" thrown at me. Once when I tried to follow through on doing something else, he got right up and started literally screaming in my face.

I'll give that article a read!

What do you suppose would happen if you said, "I'd like to give careful consideration to what you've said, but right now I'm not at my best. Let's talk in 20 minutes and that will give me a chance to calm down and better answer your concerns."

I allowed myself to be triggered by the "You're selfish" comments and went out of my way to prove I wasn't selfish. Now I'll just agree. "Yeah, I need time for myself right now. I'll get back to you."

Tried that. He follows me when I try to physically walk away. Or he physically blocks me. And, as I said, one time he got right in my face (we're talking an inch away) and screamed at me over and over. I literally, physically cannot get away. And if I just try to shut him out without leaving, same thing. If I don't respond to him, he gets more and more angry.

That is abusive. What does your DV counselor recommend when he does this?

My concern for you is that by not having the freedom to exit these conversations, that you are "training him" to think that what he is doing is OK behavior.

I'm not really sure what other options you have, but as you know, his behavior is clearly unacceptable.

That's something I plan to bring up at my next session (we've only had two so far). We're definitely in a bad pattern and I want to break it but so far I don't know how. A lot of the tools I've picked up here have helped with keeping a situation from escalating but they don't always work and I'm not always good at using them since I'm still new to this.

My DV counselor is worried that he's escalating. I'm not sure. He's been better (other than one incident last week that had no physical violence or intimidation) for the last three weeks. But I'm staying very much on my guard. He seemed to be getting into one of his moods last night but luckily didn't tip over. It helped that I actually agreed with the stuff he was ranting about, so no escalation or temptation to argue.

In the last three months, how often has he blocked you?  Are you journaling these events?

Being blocked and then having the abuser claim that you're not blocked (my wife suggested that I could climb out a window when she blocked me in the bathroom) is a form of gaslighting, and I found it to be particularly damaging to me.  I'm sorry you are dealing with this.

I found myself always looking for and wanting to give credit for improvements, and also felt personally obligated to be objectively correct and not at risk of overstating things.  I tended to understate them.  I'd make comments like, "I think she's been better lately."  But, here's the issue.  If someone abuses you once, even a long time ago, that abuse affects you and the choices you make, and the effect can linger for years.  You did a good job of describing how important your feelings are.  So, for you, what we should care about more than has he abused you in the last couple of weeks is whether you now feel safe to exit a conversation and take a break.  Our objective is for you to feel safe, not just an absence of abuse for a time.  What are your thoughts on that?

RC

Hi Radcliff

He's only blocked me twice in our marriage -- both times in the last three months. I need to start journaling and keep it at my office. As it stands now, my posts here are the journal, I guess.

Good point about feeling safe. The thing is, when I think about it, I don't feel safe. I now feel hesitant to bring up any topic with him. The first time he blocked me, he was dysregulating after I asked him what his plans were for the morning. I just wanted to know so I could make sure I didn't get in his way, knowing he had to get SS8 off to school by a certain time. I'd asked him the same question the night before with no trouble.

So, I don't ever know what's going to set him off. Some things, like family, yes, I know will trigger him. But the rest of it is just a mystery. Something like my having a cold sets him off and he ends up saying very cruel things.

And I have no idea how to exit a conversation. When I try, using tools and techniques people have suggested, if anything, it sometimes makes him worse. A couple of nights ago, he was getting all worked up over something. I stayed in the conversation and eventually he cooled down. I don't know if that's because I handled it well or because he just wasn't in the red zone. Tonight he could very well flip out over something more benign. I just don't know.

It's easy when he's in a good spell for me to sort of look back on the bad times as a bad dream. They seem almost unreal. I start to wonder if I've been unfair to him and if I'm blowing things out of proportion. Yet I know I'm not.

He hasn't had a really bad episode in about three weeks. He hasn't broken anything or thrown things around for a couple of months. Hasn't used a phrase like "I hate you right now" or "I really feel like hitting you" in about three months. I'm tempted to start to think, "Well, that means he's getting better." But I'm not sure he is. I still feel unsafe. And I feel my attachment and attraction to him slipping away.

i think to some extent, you are using the tools in an effort to put out fires.

the tools/skills are really a lifestyle, or fire prevention. there are going to be fires and storms. the ideal is that they are less frequent, that we are more resilient in weathering them, and that the relationship bounces back when they occur.

for example, take validation: the point of validation isnt to validate your way out of conflict or dysregulation. the point of validation is that its a life skill that builds trust and strengthens communication and understanding in a relationship, long term.

to an extent, using the tools can become more about conflict avoidance than conflict resolution. for example, pwBPD starts shouting, non tries SET to put out a fire, pwBPD gets more riled up (as anyone in a dysregulated state will), non feels overwhelmed, hopeless, and disengages.

as you say, you have been disengaging. your husband can sense this. he will cope with that dysfunctionally, with neediness, clinging, fighting, whatever will get your attention.

i think if you want to improve the relationship, its going to require a strategy overhaul of fire prevention as opposed to putting out fires. its going to require building on the relationship, bonding, strengthening, positive reinforcement, in times of calm. it will not stabilize over night, and there isnt a guarantee that it will at all. but when one or both parties are increasingly disengaging, at a certain point, the relationship reaches a point of no return. by and large, things can only get worse in that environment.

what do you think?

I think that makes a lot of sense, once removed. To some extent, I've tried to prevent rather than put out the fires. It's been so unpredictable, though. That may be because I'm still learning. The more I reflect on what's happening and what's happened, the more I see patterns. And I'm still trying to find what works and what doesn't.

I'm sure that my pulling back just feeds things. It's been a self-protection reaction, I think. I feel unsafe and so I've been building walls.

I think I'm just going to have to decide what I want to do. Do I want to really put in the effort to change my lifestyle, to commit to improving our relationship? Or do I want to continue pulling away and end it.

continue pulling away before ending it is a sure fire strategy for more fires.

im not suggesting that if you exit, you be hasty or rash about it. i mean specifically that just disengaging until its bad enough to leave will work against you.

Good point. I can see that.

I think part of where I'm struggling is in trying to figure out how to set up a lifestyle where the fires never (or rarely) pop up. He has so many triggers – many of them unpredictable. When he dysregulates now, I'm pretty good at staying calm and neutral while also showing empathy for his feelings. But I can't control his moods. And sometimes the things that set him off are just part of everyday life. Or, to avoid them, I'd have to change a lot about my value systems.

A couple of examples:
One of his biggest, most recent dysregulations was brought on because I'd put food away so it wouldn't spoil. I know at its heart it had nothing to do with the food itself, but if something like that will cause him to almost become violent, how do I set a lifestyle before then that prevents it?

One of my nieces is getting into musical theater performance, something I used to really enjoy doing. I'm super-proud of her and excited for her. However, if I mention something to H about it, I get different responses depending on his mood. If he's in a good mood, he'll give a sort of flat, disinterested, “Oh. OK.” That's fine. But I know when he gets into a bad mood later, he'll bring it back up and get angry at me, accusing me of caring more about my niece than about my stepson. If he's in a bad mood, he'll launch into “Why should I give a damn about your sister's kids? What does she care about mine? All she does is live for those kids. They're spoiled brats.” If I mention wanting to go to a performance, I get the same response. If I never bring it up, he gets angry that he's out of the loop.

I guess what I'm asking is, beyond what I've been doing (being mindful of his moods and triggers, listening sympathetically when he has a problem, helping out with his to-do lists, sending texts during the day to stay connected, initiating intimate moments), what do I do that doesn't involve losing myself and completely reworking my world so it revolves around creating a safe environment for him?

what are you doing, in times of calm, to build on the relationship?

hows the romance? hows the sex life? how is the pillow talk? how are the communications in times of calm?

that sort of thing.

In times of calm, things seem good. We've both been working more on the sex life because that had cooled off a bit. Holiday craziness, my health situations (for instance, my cycle started), and a period of frequent dysregulations on his part stalled things a bit. But we talked about it and said we needed to make it more of a priority. In calm times, we tease, watch TV together, cook, run errands. We went on a vacation a couple of weeks ago and it was wonderful.

The communication is a bit of a struggle in some ways. Because of his reactions to things and unpredictability, there are a number of things I'm reluctant to mention -- and he doesn't ask. There's a history of my saying something pretty normal or random and then him bringing it up later during a dysregulation and making a big deal out of it. But otherwise, I try to initiate conversation whenever I can. I try to stay cheerful and positive (if the situation calls for it) and ignore any digging remarks or cutting comments -- or respond with a pleasant "You're probably right about that. Now what do you want for dinner?"

A couple of days ago, I did something to amp up our sex life. It put him in a great mood and we had a good rest of the afternoon. Then, later, he called his mother and then slipped into a near-dysregulation over my family and a planned get-together.

Part of the problem: I think he's equating me with his mother.

Example:
He's convinced I judge him about his weight (he's perfectly healthy). I don't. I've never said a word about it. I just want him to be happy. But he accuses me of giving him "a look." I have no idea what that look could be because I'm not even remotely thinking what he thinks I am. I'm also naturally thin so sometimes I get accused of being a hypocrite. His mother is very obsessed with weight and very judgmental about it. She's really done a number on him about it.

I've always been very understanding and supportive in his problems with his mother and his worries over weight. Trying not to discount his feelings, but also encouraging him that I love him and the way he looks. So, with that said, how do I create a good environment when I'm being accused of things I haven't done and blamed for things I suspect he's transferring onto me from someone else?

your questions and focus are primarily about how to put out different fires that have already happened, and you may be missing the bigger picture.

the key is to think globally, and long term.

dysregulations, hiccups, fires, storms, or sometimes full out world wars: these things are by and large a given. you live with a difficult person. you learn to handle the fires more skillfully and resiliently. sometimes there is something specific you can do or say, sometimes there are things you can do better, but there isnt a specific tool or skill to get him to stop accusing you of "giving him a look".

the emphasis should ideally be on things like positive reinforcement, connecting emotionally, building on the high points/strengths of the marriage. you work to get on the same page. the fires are a part of it, and you will need help weathering them, but these things build the foundation to reduce and solve conflict in your marriage.

example only: hours (or a day or two... .in a time of calm) later you ask him about the putting the food away incident. you listen. you ask validating questions. assuming things go well (or maybe even a day or two later), you revisit it... .at some point you state your point of view. you ask if the two of you can help each other out on this if theres a problem. you approach it as a team. or maybe you let that one go altogether.

thats not a solution, and only an example. another is that while you cannot possibly solve his insecurity, and he may project it on you from time to time, if he feels more connected emotionally, if the (positive) passion is at a high in your marriage, he is naturally less likely to project his insecurity on you.

the point is that youre the emotional leader, you steer the relationship in a healthier trajectory, and ideally, your partner (over time) follows your lead.

the fires will still occur. he will lose his cool. he will break agreements. they may be less frequent or far less frequent. you both may be better equipped to resolve them afterward. as a result of the relationship being on a healthier trajectory, he (both of you) may feel safer, more secure, more committed to the health of your marriage. conflict will drop off, or it wont.

make sense?

It does. I really appreciate your insight, once. It's so helpful to get another point of view. I need to see the forest as opposed to focusing on the trees.

I think you need to establish some boundaries with him.  Things that he does that make you feel unsafe like blocking you should never be done.  You need to be able to exit a conversation with him if either of you are getting agitated.  He will probably try and turn the argument around and make it about how he is feeling, but you would need to insist that your safety comes first.

Others on this board know much more about DV type issues than I do, so they can probably give much better guidance on how to approach the conversation, how to ensure you are safe when giving it, etc.

I would also like to point out that, you were probably experiencing an extinction burst when you tried to stop a conversation before.  Things get worse before they get better.

I agree wholeheartedly with once removed here.  My philosophy is that as long as we are in the relationship, we should be Bettering.  That doesn't mean that we can't consider exiting, but we need to be working the tools as long as we are in the relationship, especially if we are living with the person or sharing children with them. 

I appreciate your point about not wanting to lose yourself.  You can apply the tools without losing yourself.  But avoiding losing yourself when you are in a relationship with a difficult person needs to be something you are continually working on.  Threading  the needle -- not too reactionary or defensive, yet not getting run over -- that's the art, and it's not easy.

RC

You're right. It isn't easy. Especially since I'm a very rational person. While I'm learning how his mind works, the extreme emotional reactions and illogical thinking still baffle me. I am seeing improvement on my part, though. Last night he was getting all worked up about something (went from cheerful and playful to full-on angry in the span of about 5 seconds -- never seen him go so fast) and I was able to validate his feelings, be empathetic and stay calm. He calmed down and the night ended fine.

I also took your advice, once. Before and after his angry episode, I made an effort to be more demonstrative and loving. When we sat watching TV, I hooked my arm through his. When we went to bed, I reached over and held his hand. Both were well-received.

In part, it's a matter of shedding the anger and resentment that were starting to develop in me over the abuse he's thrown my way. Also, the fear. In some ways, I'm afraid of him. I know, for my safety, it's important to hold on to some of that, but I can't let it rule me and wreck the relationship if I want the relationship to survive. He'll pick up on my pulling away and my fear and that will only make things worse.

Congratulations on this progress!  It's wonderful when we get visible signs of improvement for our efforts.  I'm glad to hear that he received your affection well.  It sounds like that may have felt encouraging to you.


You've raised some very important thoughts here.  Some fear is healthy, too much gets in our way.  It's a tough balance.  One of the advantages of journaling is that you'll have dates for when things happen, and can write down details.  You'll be able to see if the frequency of things that make you fearful are reducing,  and also be able to see how your efforts are contributing.  You can appreciate progress but also capture signs of trouble if they are continuing, in a way that prevents you from minimizing what's happening.

When he is calm, does the show empathy?  In a calm time, if you told him that something had made you afraid, how would he receive it?

RC

In calm times, he can be aware that he doesn't handle things the right way or that his thoughts are destructive. He's never, however, indicated that he understands where I'm coming from. He still feels baffled and frustrated that I can't get angry and worked up the way he does.

Last night at his anger management session (my first time to go with him), I admitted that I sometimes feel scared during his rages. He didn't respond to that. Other times, when I've suggested how I feel when he's like that, he kind of waves it off with "I'd never hurt you. I haven't hit anyone since I got in a fight in elementary school." So, I'm not sure how it would be received but I suspect he would get defensive or dismissive.

The way he discounted the blocking incident is another example. He was very dismissive about that one and how I felt, though, to be fair, it wasn't too long after the incident (he was calm, but it wasn't like a day had passed). And last night at anger management, he made a couple of comments like "When I yell, it's not directed at her." I didn't argue because I didn't feel like it was safe or the time was right to do so but, yes, sometimes he is very definitely yelling/angry at me.

this is really the bread and butter of when/where to improve on (conflict specifically), to communicate, to resolve conflict, to come up with solutions together.


and how did you respond?

I told him that I'd felt trapped. Even if, technically, I wasn't backed into a corner or up against a wall, in that moment, I'd felt like I couldn't get away. He waved his hands again and said "Whatever. You're making too much out of it" and then rolled right on to something else. At the time, I was too stunned to know what to say. By the time I'd recovered, he was already deep into another topic.

I can see that and maybe I need to try to continue the conversation more in-depth when he's in that frame of mind. Part of the problem, though, is that when he does admit that he might go about things the wrong way, from what he says, some of the very unfair and destructive thoughts/beliefs he has are still there.

For instance, he's convinced that I think he's fat, that I judge him for what/when/how much he eats. Nothing could be further from the truth. I think he focuses on it too much and wish he could relax more about it. It's something his mother is obsessed with and I suspect that he's transferring her onto me. I don't feel that way. There are things I've done that he interprets that way (putting food away so it doesn't spoil -- after offering him more, not offering to order an appetizer) even though I've never said a word about it. I love the way he looks and have expressed that through words and actions over the last three years. When he's dysregulating, it's a major stick he beats me with. When he's more normal, he'll still make "joking" comments about me being the food police. It's turned food into a major issue for us, with me constantly second- and third-guessing anything I say or suggest when it comes to eating for fear it will be misinterpreted.

I don't know how to combat that. Ever since I've met him, I've been affectionate (well, until recent behavior made me pull back a bit -- working on that) and made it clear I'm attracted to him. When he's restricting food intake I try to be understanding and also encourage him to eat more. I've asked my parents for guidance there since they dealt with my anorexic sister in our teen years.

So, even when things are calm, I get hints that some of the disordered thinking is still there. I'm hesitant to bring things up for fear of triggering him.

dont combat it. he is self conscious and insecure about his body image; he might have better days, but thats unlikely to change long term. combating it, getting caught up in it at all really, is making yourself part of the equation.

be reasonably mindful and sensitive. show love. i wouldnt go much further than that and i wouldnt go above and beyond to try to show him otherwise either. if anything, that can make a person more self conscious.


that can happen. i would recommend something along the lines that its hurtful and makes you feel dismissed; ask if the two of you can work on this together. appeal to his better side... .things like (just for example) "we are better than this". or something about how you like how, as a husband, you see him as strong and protective and that makes you feel safe and secure, but when he blocks you out... .

these are just examples. the approach needs to be personalized in terms of what works best for you and the context of the relationship, how the two of you talk to each other.

Yes, I've seen that fighting against his self-image doesn't help. I'm trying to watch that.

Good examples for the blocking. I don't know how receptive he'll be since he tends to get defensive (and any headway we've made on coming to an understanding on things tends to disappear after a day or two) but it's certainly worth trying.

it wont go away over night. you stay on it, consistently (ideally in times of calm), and nip it in the bud over time.

also key, is not reacting when he does it. it may be that he is looking for that reaction. if he doesnt get anything more than a stare, the wind will fly out of his sails.

Oh, I don't react. He insists that's part of the problem, that he's trying to get a rise out of me. When he gets angry, he wants me to get angry and worked up, too. I've told him that doesn't work with me (my natural inclination is to go cold) and I've demonstrated that consistently for the last couple of months. His T told him last night that the other person mirroring him and getting worked up isn't a healthy or productive thing. (My DV counselor has told me the same -- two emotional, angry adults is a powder keg.)

Other than the screaming and blocking incident last month, he hasn't gotten really violent in a while now so maybe it really is working.

*mod*
I am locking this thread because it has reached its length limit. The post originator is welcomed to open a continuation thread on this topic.