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I honestly couldn't understand whatever points my wife is/was trying to make and was asking a question... trying to clarify and letting her know I didn't understand and was trying to listen. I suppose she was likely not trying to talk to me but wanted to do her under the breath ranting thing.

Very loudly... with kids around:  "Oh... .there is FF... .he's Jesus Christ and has never made a mistake."

I was shocked... . and said "please don't use such language around me or the kids.  Stop it"  she then mumbled and rumbled for a while trying to justify it... .then claimed I was trying to trap her.

The she actually approached me and asked "when is the last time you came to and admitted wrongdoing?"

Perhaps I was foolish in answering and said "It's been a while FFw, but I have a very specific reason for not doing it... related to language you used earlier blaspheming Jesus."

She cut me off blathering about no blaspheming... .me needing to learn to "live with her in an understanding way"... .and tried to toss out some other scriptures.

I decided to disengage from the entire conversation.  She's been mumbling under her breath for another 15 minutes since then.

Then tries to be "uber nice" to the kids.

Absolutely disgusts me that someone can claim to be a Christian and then blatantly do/say stuff like this around the children she claims from time to time I'm ruining... .because I'm not a Christian.  Yuck... .double yuck. I'm going to go try to get a solid workout in.  Long swim.  Hopefully that will help me move past this.

FF

 Dear Ff,
I’m sorry your wife violated your religious believes and  your feelings, especially with your children present. Religion is a slippery slope even for “neurotypical adults”, let alone ones with BPD. Across all 3 monotheistic religions, using the name on the almighty in vain is considered a sin. Let alone using it to shame someone, or try to prove a point. In the context of your exchange it seems that she is using a religious pretext to justify and projects her emotions and feelings on to you. I may try to use the same approach, that you have used for me in the past. It made me take a step back and Analyze. From what I have been reading, coming from your posts, ffw uses the religion when she is trying to “shoot straight to your heart”, meaning evoke a very strong emotions that you are able to withhold in a typical conversation. She “senses” that things conversations hook you on deep, regardless of the context or what she is accusing you, blaming you or questions your believes. I almost cringe, when I imagine how it makes you feel. Although you do come across a solid and a very rational man, we all have our Achilles’s heels. May I ask, is Christianity one of them? Did it play any role of you becoming an item? Why does she play “this card”, and not others when she is dysregulated?
From my experience, most people with BPD aren’t able to walk the “Christian, Judaistic or Muslim” way of living consistently. There are slips that aren’t compatible with the whole “10 commandments”. Your relationships are between you, and G-d, not her, you and G-d. It hurts to hear things things, I imagine you are uncomfortable with your children being the witnesses of this exchange.
My two cents- I was baptized by my uBPD mother to fit into her “view of religion” as a mean of wiping off the slate clean. I am still struggling with the whole idea. You, on the other hand, are pretty consistent with your views and the kinds of conversations you share with your children. Keep it up, keep on distracting yourself. What’s more Ff, you are saving lives on this very forum. There were times, when myself included, you were the loudest voice and an outstretched hand, helping to crawl from the BPD hell. I’m sure you are wearing many hats in this life. Yet, the person that I have met here, is a man of G-d, who is living out his life’s purpose. Don’t let the distrorted blasphemy confuse and anger you.

It's interesting how we can be "holier than thou" and not a Christian... .There are some narratives in the gospels where the pharisees were telling Jesus all kinds of things too.

She's pushing your buttons. Figuring out how to disable our buttons is one of those areas of growth for most of us around here. In my world of interactions with churchy people, I have often talked with God about the situations.

 FF, when I read what you wrote what really jumped out to me was that the conversation wasn't really about religion but about you "always" being right which in turn means she is "always wrong." You asking to clarify seemed to trigger her feelings of being wrong/less than you. Just my 2 cents!
I hope the swim improved your mood!

My uBPD H goes back and forth from atheist to believer is some sort of God.  A lot depends on whether or not he is angry with me.  He was particularly close to his mother (his F is uBPD/uNPD) and she was a Christian.  Her dying in her 80s struck H as a huge blow.

When H is in a good mood, he will be kind and charitable, offering to drive an elderly woman from hospital to her home.  (We lived in the same neighbourhood.)  He is kind to the pets.

When H splits and dysregulates, he throws things and upends furniture, terrifying the pets who hide in the house.  When I mention how God would see his rage and frightening his wife and the pets, he rages drill sergeant-style (inches from my face), "There IS no God!"

FF, pwBPD are so unsure of most of the things in their lives, so they most certainly have no concepts of philosophy or religion, which require a soundness of mind, sureness in one's beliefs and an unshakeable belief in God.   My H is a pitiable man.  His X W left him after 10 years of marriage and left to marry her lover (who was also married and divorced his wife to marry her.)  She took all the children across the country to live with her new husband.  She taunted him for almost 18 years over visitation, making him beg to see the children.   H bought them cell phones and was always sent to voicemail by the children, who only saw him as a source for gifts and money.   Add to this his uBPD F, a child in the body of an elderly man. Have you every seen a man in his 80s fume and pout?  It's a disgusting sight.

H has had a poor shake in his life, but that does not give him license to treat me like dirt, the last priority in his life (behind his adult children and grandchildren) and his punching bag.   I am now married and emotionally single. It took me years to get to this state.  I have my beliefs in God and have a spiritual center.  This helps me with the weekly divorce threats, withholding of affecting and broken items.

I agree with the others that religion is your Achilles heel. You've been able to be calm and collected with most things she says to you, but not with this. You react because it is meaningful to you.

I also agree that what she said was less about religion than feeling frustrated with the idea that you are always right and she is always wrong. ( her thinking). It's also a way to get you to react ( maybe not consciously). To her, if you react, then the two of you are still engaged emotionally with each other in the moment. It may also be her way of projecting pain. If she's hurting- this is a way to send that pain to you.

You two have had the "scripture arguments" before. In this situation, you bring God into the drama triangle. God either is used to "rescue" - prove one of you is right, or to be "persecutor"- prove one of you is wrong.

Maybe what could be helpful to you when your wife says these things is to not react, think about what she is really saying, and refrain from the triangle with scriptures- because I don't think that's the topic. She was trying to talk to you and you didn't understand her- and she got frustrated. I don't condone how she expressed it, but I think it's better to look at the feeling behind it than the words.

I do think it's appropriate to request she doesn't say these things in front of the children. I think at that point she may be shame triggered when you corrected her. But she's trying to tell you something.

My primary concern and source of disgust is that my wife publicly does these things.

My kids now have to consider that I've been declared not a christian, also separately a blasphemer, and now I'm also actually Jesus Christ.

The attempts of my wife to publicly reconcile, were worse than the original issue (IMO).  Lot's of justification and blaming me for what her mouth did/said.

This morning was an example.  She woke me up and did actually say that she shouldn't have said I was Jesus, yet she continued with "but"... ."that's really how I feel and it was my fault she felt that way and about 10 minutes of justification/proof for her point of view"

I let her know I heard her point of view and asked if she wanted to understand mine.  She verbally flopped around a bit attempting to not answer and then kinda said "she shouldn't have to... "

I let her know I would wait until she was ready to listen and that I couldn't imagine further conversation now being helpful for our relationship.

She sputtered and huffed... .then we got kids ready and out the door.

Then... .love bombing and uber niceness via text.

Ugg... I'm well aware that disgust is a very dangerous feeling in a relationship. 

I don't see it as my role to make it easy for her or pretend reconciliation has happened, when it hasn't.  I also don't see it as my role to save her from the exact reason I won't "join with her" and "teach Bible" or "teach our kids about God... "

The things she wants/and does teach are far outside the bounds of anything I consider moral/ethical.  I won't be involved with or in any way enable such things.

If that's upsetting to her or others... .I'll let them work through that.

FF

Very True FF,

... .what did they (we) always say about the new Squadron Skipper,

"leadership sets the tone"

Positive motivation is very contagious, .and as well bad morale, also very contagious.

Hope all is well this evening FF, ."steady as she goes",

Red5

My first therapist once said that he can see a marriage will fail when one spouse develops contempt for the other. This makes me wonder, because so much of the BPD behavior appears to me to be contemptuous... .hey the other spouse or partner is holding the relationship togeyhet.

But if the non-BPD partner develops contempt, that could signal the end.

Disgust is a strong word, FF. How do you move past that?

Just to add a different perspective here... .

Our faith is not measured by our ability to defend against what people call us. And that's important because if it was, we would use up a lot of energy defending our name that could be used do be a servant to God.

And its not for is to judge her sin... .that is as bad as the name calling.

Faith is often about priorities, perspective, barriers, and humility.

Besides, I don't believe your children will see you as the son of man. You still have to buy your wine.


To me, this is very well said, empath.

FF, can you think of a different way to react if this happens again?

I don't think Baptists drink wine  

I agree that the kids can see for themselves that your wife's statements are not accurate and also, you've raised them with your morals.

 I was also raised with morals and the ten commandments. Then, you see your parents stuck in traffic and they let out a  :cursing: and you realize that your parents are humans, they goof once in a while, but those basic rules are still a part of who they are and who you are.

It was especially hard for me as a teen to see my mother behave in ways I was taught not to. It's my part to decide on my behavior- and not want to do some of her behaviors, but I am not the ultimate judge of her behavior. Also, despite the fact that some of her behaviors are inconsistent with the morals I was raised with- my parents were, at their heart, decent people. Decent people who sometimes made mistakes. Human like the rest of us.

Who am I to judge someone else as a sinner? We don't know another person's heart or their spiritual connection. I have enough on my own plate to judge and measure. If someone breaks the law, then they can deal with our legal system. If someone strays from a religious principle, then they will be accountable to God for that.  I agree she should not do this in front of your kids, but you know what, she has BPD and she's going to. I heard a lot worse about my father from BPD mom- but I don't believe it.

I think you staying on course with your own morality is the best evidence for your kids. Your wife will say what she says, but they see what they see.

Baptists, wine... .  When my son got married, they had a champagne toast. My Baptist parents-in-law pretended to drink the champagne... .  There was also dancing... .  They didn't stay long... .


Your kids have the advantage of seeing you and ffw and your lives on a daily basis. They are smart and know from what they have observed and what they have been taught. I know because my kids saw what my h did and said and how it didn't line up with what he was professing at church.

Jesus, himself, didn't spend a lot of time defending his identity or relationship with God to the Pharisees. They had already decided that he wasn't following their rules, so he couldn't possibly be God. At the same time, he continued to love them which included telling them that they weren't getting it... . He would "withdraw" when they wanted to stone him.

TBH, there are some "Christians" who think that it means following a set of rules and coercing others. Maybe being declared not a Christian by them is okay if we don't think the same way. Jesus will ultimately be the judge of that... . 

My take on her comment is that it was sarcasm fueled by resentment.

Since she is the person who primarily exhibits "problematic behavior" in the relationship, it stands to reason that these behaviors are being addressed as frequently as they occur, which to her may seem as though it is ALWAYS happening to her and NEVER to you.

It's not that you don't make mistakes. Everyone does. But she is likely focusing on her perception of being the one called into question more frequently and interprets that as always/never.

Hence the sarcasm.

It is frustrating to see someone profess a belief system and then act in ways that contradict that. Especially frustrating when that person then claims to be spirituality superior to you 

I would say try not to take it personally and lead by example. Sounds simple, but I know it's more complicated than that.

 

Redeemed

,

No is a complete sentence.  The less I say... the more powerful.

The issue not being directly addressed is our faith puts me as the responsible one for what my children are taught. 

While I get it I shouldn't drone on about it and that matches up with the teaching here an also my Biblical belief.  I'm not her Holy Spirit... .once I've clearly pointed out the wrongdoing it's not my job to convict her heart.

Also not in my job description to save her from her own actions, her own emotions.

Thinking about next time... .I said a sentence or two to many this time.  The part where I asked her if she was attempting to edify my likely triggered her more, since she likely couldn't figure out even a smart azz answer to get around that.

Plus... .I knew there was very little chance she was trying to edify me.

FF

At the moment... I haven't a clue.  Time I suppose. 

It would be one thing if I thought about it and could figure out that what she did wasn't really disgusting... .

Anyone think of a better word for an adult teaching kids that one parent isn't a Christian... .and then saying he actually is Jesus.

Repulsive maybe?  The entire thing is icky...

FF

The main aspect of where you are with your wife lately that is concerning is this continued gulf between you - the lack of emotional and spiritual intimacy that is such a joyful part of marriage. You have said you continue to be physically intimate, but certainly the lack of intimacy in other areas affects that also? It sounds, I don't know... .sad. A stalemate.

So... it's weird... .I suppose I have taken the "boundary" and applied it to different parts of my marriage.

So... .if we stay away from money and stay away from religious things... .I can have a good and enjoyable time with my wife.

We can cook together, go hang out for a couple hours, go to the gym with kids.  And yeah... .we enjoy intimacy, taking baths together.

I have this thing where when my wife "acts healthy"... .I try to "feed that" and when she acts unhealthy I try to "starve that".

I'm moving forward with different parts of my life... .but I honesty don't see a way forward on the money issue and religious issues. 

Why make agreements with someone that abrogates those agreements?


FF

Agreed. Religious teaching to gain power over is just... .  yuck. BTDT, not rolling my eyes at the yuck was a spiritual discipline for me for way longer than I wanted. Honestly, I have heard the same things coming from my h in front of the kids. My kids know that well, their dad is a bit of a drama queen and don't really think that I'm either Jesus or not a Christian. My husband's parents, on the other hand, might think that I'm not a Christian because they only talk to him (I wasn't given the "Jesus loves you" kitch that they sent h and the kids). They've also inserted themselves and tried to teach my youngest about their views on the proper Christian way -- made her cry.

Anyway, our kids are smart and know when people are being inconsistent in what they say. You are teaching them through your life and your words and how you interact with all of your family.

What does the boundary look like when it's applied to your religious life?

 
Good question about boundaries... .I've been turning that over in my head some.

Similar to finances... .I don't make agreements with people that don't keep their word. 

I don't worship with people that take the Lord's name in vain or in a mocking way.  (probably need to keep tweaking that statement, but I think you guys get the gist of it)

There are many religious things I used to find great satisfaction in doing, that are off the table now.  Reconciling a relationship takes two people with effort and the right "prescription".

I'm willing to do healthy things... .the things she is willing to do fall under the broad heading of "keep doing the same things and expect a different outcome". 

So... .I'll work on my own spiritual path and fulfill my role for the family as best I can and be clear in my communication.

Kinda scratching my head if there is a better way.  I'm open to suggestions/comments.

FF

Values and boundaries are hierarchical.  Is there not a higher value/boundary that trumps all this?

I would return to this question of intellectual, emotional, physical, and spiritual intimacy. What is there/what is good? What is missing g, and why?

What is not integrated, and what is still hanging out there to be integrated into the "good"?

FF, I think she said this with sarcasm. A better way would have been " FF always thinks he is right. He thinks he's perfect, like Jesus".

She's indicated that she wants to join the church and you are not on board with this at the moment ( you want to wait). You follow a religion that states you are the spiritual head of the family. This is, in a way, being a spiritual leader--- like Jesus. I can imagine she feels she has to comply with this, but she's also frustrated and resentful that she can't join the church she wants to join- because of you.

Both of you are frustrated. She's now a blasphemer to you, and you are the reason she can't join the church.

A main concern with her statement is saying it in front of the kids, but that doesn't reflect on you. It's on her. The kids know your values. She may continue to do and say things that are inconsistent with the kids' values but it is hard to control that. You have to do the best with this one- and the kids will see both of your behaviors.

So she said it. There is another way to look at this. One way is that, in a moment of frustration and poor impulse control, she said something inappropriate that didn't actually mean what she is trying to say. We've discussed this kind of "word vomit" when BPD people are dysregulating. They often choose something they know is hurtful. This is your Achilles' heel. My BPD mother chose mine- saying something mean to me about my father. I finally had to have a boundary with that- if she does this, I will disengage. She doesn't do this anymore as it has no power.

Stop being reactive in the moment  to her religious comments. They work for her, in the moment, the next moment she's probably feeling shame and trying to patch things up. Don't respond with another Bible quote or religious discussion. Her comments hook you as this is emotional to you. I don't diminish that, but perhaps changing your response will  diminish her doing this- which is ultimately what you want.

No for me.  That is an expression of my highest value.

What I believe the Bible teaches is your most important relationship is with God

Your next most important relationship is with your wife.

Then your kids.

Then those in your church

And so on.

If you get those out of order, an expected result would be less order in your life.  (order is not the best word... .still waking up at the moment).  Perhaps "more chaos" is appropriate.

FF

I'm not sure this is being challenged. The issue is name calling. "Blasphemy" denotes any utterance that insults God or Christ. She wasn't insulting God or Christ, she was insulting you. If I said, hey FF, do you think your Freud?, I'm not insulting Freud.

I'll just say it. You may be offended, but let's push this a little. Is your reaction vanity or is it faith?

In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, ~ Ephesians 5:25-29

To be clear, I'm not defending her action. It's in bad taste, no doubt. I'm trying to keep it in perspective.

I can't begin to imagine how this is vanity?  Please expand on how this expresses vanity?

FF

FF, this is what I was trying to convey in my answer above, I agree with Notwendy. I don't think she was implying you were Jesus, just that you are "always" right/perfect, like Jesus. She is having the usual internal turmoil, inconsistent sense of self, and by you being "perfect" exacerbates those feelings. By her going to church she can tell herself that she is a good person. Since BPD people carry a sense of shame, going to church can be a double edged sword. It can make them feel better about themselves, superior to others, or it can point out just how dysfunctional they are, depending on the message preached.

I have been through this myself. As far as saying things in front of your children, I personally would walk away and not engage. She can mumble to herself all she wants. Your children will see your consistency. If they went to Sunday School they would have a third party verify the very things you believe. Just a thought.

I'm sorry I do not know your entire story but I was wondering if you have been to church with her before and how did your wife's behavior change? In my case, it made my husband feel like he was a better person than what the voices in his head were telling him during the week. He used to use it as a way to feel superior to others but that has completely changed.
We have had issues in the past where Pastors were ill equipped to counsel people that suffer with  mental illness. When that happens, it makes the BPD sufferer feel more shame. I actually picked up a short book last Sunday at church that focuses specifically on the Christian with Borderline. I have not read it all yet but I like what I have read so far. I will give you an idea of the premise, It addresses people with BPD and their emotional instability. It does hold them accountable for their actions but also gives them specific bible verses to focus on to help themselves to change and be more Christ like. It has the BPD person derive their sense of self from loving God first, the one who never changes and loves unconditionally. I will post more about it if you are interested.
 

Sure... please post more and/or share the name of the book.  I'm always interested in other perspectives.

That very well be what my wife meant, or it could be something else.  Likely we'll never know.

This incident is certainly distressing, yet my longer term view is influenced more by the pattern than the exact details of any one utterance.

The reason the apology was worse was that in a time of "calm" she spent a considerable amount of time trying to "have it both ways"... .where she could technically be correct that she said the words "I shouldn't have done that... .then said "but"... .and spent a long time justifying her beliefs and words."   

Perhaps a better way of interpreting the diatribe was "I'm sorry you are hurt by the truth I know"

FF

One thing to consider is that this was her way of apologizing to you.  A pwBPD has a hard time apologizing, so I can see her trying to say it in another way.

I'm sure it is her way of apologizing.

I responded to those things in a positive way for what they are.  I don't want to go further and give the impression I'm fine with those things and thereby further enable/give positive reinforcement to BPDish ways.

FF

It would appear this morning is my "next time".

My strategy to respond differently was to delay any response to a private conversation.  Her public rant about me lasted about 30 seconds this time... perhaps a minute.  She said some nasty things about my motivations (that she can apparently mindread)... .yet at least today I wasn't deified.

We'll see if she actually will talk in private.  We agreed to me at 945.  Her suggestion on time.

FF 

She tried to get out of the private conversation (scheduled at her time) by saying she no longer needed to talk or wanted to know why I wanted kids to do chores (or something like that)

I said I still needed to talk and she "gave me 5 minutes... .but I better make it quick".  She stood at the foot of our bed (we were in bedroom for privacy)... waving her phone around showing me that the timer was running.

First off I let her know I appreciated her time and understood she was busy, so my main objective was for her to think about a longer, 30 minutes or so time later this evening when we could talk about important matters, especially since today was an unexpected day off (cold/snow).

Secondly I appreciated her letting me know via text that she would follow my leading... .that if it needs correction that God will do that.  That I wanted to make sure my leading was clear.  Neither of us are to share our  "thoughts" , "opinions" of the other's thinking, motivations and/or emotions publicly or privately with any of our children.  Those are adult conversations for us to only have privately, where we are each free to bring up whatever is on our mind for clarification.

She huffed and puffed... .worried about the time left for the talk and then exasperatingly said that she struggled with that and I "wasn't helping her".  I tried to be somewhat empathetic and assured her I was interested in her thoughts, which she could share later... .about how I could help.

She got even more exasperated and said "you never let me know anymore that you've done anything wrong."

I said... "FFw... that's true.  I would hope you could spend some time today thinking about the last time I did that.  From that experience I've thoughtfully and prayerfully decided for now to no longer do such a thing.  We can talk more about that tonight."

She huffed and puffed some more about poor FF having to live with a big bad FFw.

my response was "oh my... .certainly seems like something to chat about later."

she huffed a bit more and exited the room.

The good news is I should have a session with P between now and any further chance to talk tonight.

FF

I'm wondering if she has heard you state your boundary about apologizing... .

Is there something that she thinks you have done wrong?

I have "Bionically confronted her" twice about the use of the Lord's name in vain the last time I asked for forgiveness. 

It's a bit of a long story, so yes she has heard it... she hasn't acknowledged that it actually happened.  She only stated that she didn't laugh.
 
I should come back and tell the story if it doesn't make sense.  Thing is... .it was over a year ago... I'd have to look it up for sure.

Quickly:  I asked for forgiveness for a minor issue.  She laughed (cackled is more appropriate), used the Lord's name in vain and then told a wacky story about me asking forgiveness for taking the family out to lunch.  (that doesn't do it justice... .but the few times before that got weirder and weirder... then this one just took the cake).

So... .I stopped pouring gas on a fire I didn't understand.

FF

It seems to me that confrontation is a bit different than stating a boundary.

My h can twist even my simple requests into something unrecognizable - leaving me just, well, confused. The last few interactions that we had were confusing to me; thankfully, they were via text so he couldn't deny his weird responses. He decided he needed to take a break... . 

If your wife's situation is correct- and you don't apologize to her or acknowledge that you make mistakes too, then you may come across as super-human. It isn't easy to be a human who makes a mistake once in a while and be in a relationship with someone who does not. If one is prone to feeling shame, it's hard to feel like the one who doesn't measure up.

I think we should strive to be our best and not make mistakes if possible, but we are humans, and sometimes we do things like lose our tempers, say things we don't mean, spill something in the kitchen or forget something.

When kids are raised with shame, they don't feel they make mistakes, they feel they are mistakes. Is your stance on not admitting to wrong doing a shame trigger for her- if she's the only one who makes mistakes?

To me, your wife sounds frustrated with your boundary. In a moment of anger, her lizard brain took over and she said something she should not have said to express her frustration at you not ever appearing to make a mistake. Now, she's even further in that hole of shame because of what she said. I think she avoided her discussion with you because she didn't want to be further shamed. She doesn't need to hear what she did- just about every kid who ever went to Sunday school knows the 10 commandments.

God's the ultimate judge of us, but I hope you can look at these in context. She said something in a moment of anger, she may not even mean it. This is repairable. She knows she did it. Does she have to feel humiliated too?

I certainly will apologize for things, say I'm sorry or things like that.

Asking for forgiveness is (to me) a much more religious and intimate thing... much more vulnerable.

I wouldn't expect anyone else to be repeatedly vulnerable and be repeatedly "oddly chastised" in the process.

While my wife's laughter and all the rest was the worst of the worst... .it was a consistent pattern that was getting worse.  With no breaks in between.  So... .there wasn't a couple bad ones and a few good ones... .the trend was consistently worse and worse.

My view is that for whatever reason that I don't understand... .my asking for forgiveness equated "pouring gas" on a fire in my  wife that I don't understand.

Perhaps boundary is an odd word to use there or perhaps the "vision" is that I "keep my gas" inside my boundary so it doesn't touch "her" fire.

I had a good meeting with P yesterday.  I'll send some updates later on that.

Right now beating my head against Microsoft Project... .

FF

As I understand it, you will apologize but don't ask for her forgiveness.

Can you write a bit more about the practice of asking for forgiveness and what the difference is from an apology?

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