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As an abused child our choice was fight or flight. As a scapegoat I never had the option of flight which means I’m the type to grasp the nettle which has helped me greatly in my career. My sister was the “lost child” in the triangulation dynamic, and she understandably hides from issues mostly using denial (as do BPD and NPD).

I remember as a child I used avoidance, by spending as much time as I could away from home, staying with friends or joining clubs. I remember thinking you could love everyone if you just understood them.  But now I think that sort of philosophy, blind faith, can be very dangerous, you can end up marring someone with BPD etc... .

So here’s my question, where does denial have a value and when is it dangerous ? I say this, because in business denial had very little value internally, maybe externally with PR and complaints handling, but in the board room it is very dangerous. Then I see how easily Politicians such as Hitler gain power by swiping away facts, using emotional arguments “Traitor!”  Looking around the world, we seem to be in that place again. But now we have more science surely we need less blind faith to explain things ?

I ask these questions, because in business I've done well exposing denial, but that normally brings huge stresses and pressure if you're raging against the machine.  My T says I need to let others do that now, I need to pretend I never saw the issue, walk on by. But how do you train yourself to do that ?  I would value your views.   

I like the "not my circus, not my monkeys" motto. Sometimes we need to pick our battles.

I also think "natural consequences" -is a good teacher. If someone is not in danger, or a danger to themselves or others, then allowing them to do it their way- and not ours, is a possible response. Sometimes their ideas are better than ours and the outcome is good.

I think many of us have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility from our backgrounds. Being the scapegoat child, we've been "blamed" for things that we aren't responsible for and we may then feel overly responsible for others.

I watched my mom avoid and deny her grandmother's uBPD/BPD behaviors for a very long time. My father chose his battles with her. After moving us to a different city, specifically to rear a family outside her influence, the most I ever heard with say (in THAT voice) was "That's enough, Dorothy."

 my sister and I were both pretty assertive. We were in our twenties when we figured out she was triangulating in phone conversations, and we all agreed to tell her that we wouldn't discuss another's business and would hang up if SGM kept going. That fixed that situation.

My DH , in his marriage to the uBPD/BPD ex, started out as The Master of Avoidance and Denial). It wasn't until we married that he first voiced his belief that his son was not his bio son. As time went on, he learned to pick his battles - and those were inevitably about the children.

Denial keeps consequences at bay that you can't/don't want to address currently.

It can give you hope when you would otherwise break down (think of a parent looking for their long lost child), it can buy you time to figure out a plan (emergency crew telling everyone "its under control" when its really not, panic would make it even harder to control), it can "save your life" (think of the paramedic doing CPR for hours when everyone says "he's gone", or the coma patient who wakes up after 20+ years)

It is in our repertoire for a reason, and just like your hands when building a house vs getting in a fight, misuse can have some very nasty consequences.

Good denial can help us push through, bad denial can stop us from growing, malicious denial is a misuse with the clear intention to cause harm.

To know the difference between which is which is not easy, deception can make malicious denial appear to be well intentioned, just as changing circumstances can turn "good denial" into bad (think of the Titanic, trying not to cause panic turns into late evacuation)

Can you think of a situation where you would use "denial" to improve or better manage a situation? When is "brutal honesty" as opposed to a "calculated truth" the 'wrong' choice?

I used avoidance in reality as best I could, especially as a teenager, but in my mind as a kid.  I adopted myself into a couple of families.  One finally accepted me after a probation period of sorts. I don't blame them.  My mom was off.

What you say later is how I ended up.  Thanks for the warning.  

I think we need to have a working definition of denial and how you are using it here before we can really discuss it.

I don't think denial has any value as I define it here.  As I read this you are talking about denial in terms of not taking action against things that are 'wrong' or against what our values and beliefs tell us should be.  You are talking about this in terms of when to take up the battle... .whatever that battle may be.

For me knowing when to act vs not doing so is more an issue of knowing what is mine to deal with, what is within my capabilities, where my limits are and allowing others the freedom to be who they are and to make their own choices.  It is about being willing to be uncomfortable with things being different than I would have them be.  For me it is about not having to control things.  Is that denial?  I don't think so.  Is it denial to express your opinion once, take a stance and then remove yourself from a situation and let go?

In reviewing what my intial thoughts are to this... .my mind went pretty much where Notwendy’s and Harri’s did... .
My immediate thinking with work stuff is: Ya gotta pick your battles.
Another one I try to live by for work is to: Stay under the radar.


So another option I have, and I have to use in a crafty way... .  Is helping people see other perspectives only when they are open to such or asking for such.

What I mean is... .I don’t try to meddle... .but when I see something happening that I feel is not ok... .and someone is soliciting my thoughts I can ask questions to help them see another perspective.

Someone did this to me actually recently... .
I was struggling with a bosses threat to me and deciding a course of action... .without giving me an opinion either way or any instructions... .he says to me... .“I haven’t read my contract in a while... .I have been meaning to take it out and take a look at it.”  He was right! What was being threatened to me was out of bounds of my contractual agreement and I was able to use that info to come up with a different way of seeing the situation... .(instead of being self depricating... .the new info helped empower me to know where I actually stand... .and from that I had a new strategy on how to approach this issue.)

I guess I am saying... .there is a difference to managing conflicting issues... .via “exposing stuff” vs empowering people and sharing info on a case by case basis depending on what folks care to listen to.

I had thought this might be a tumbleweed post, but great advice as always from you guys. Thanks ever so much  :hi:

Notwendy  “feel overly responsible for others” tell me about it. How to do stop being overly responsible ?
Gagrl its interesting you and your sister are assertive, because so am I. You'd never get a word in edgeways around a BPD otherwise. .
irsmeSnap  what a great list of benefits of denial. I needed that point out, thank you.

Turkish – you’ve mentioned being adopted by other family’s a couple of times, so was I. I remember being amazed that the mother would serve everyone the same food, rather than triangulate. And the mother would seem interested in what the children had to say. My fondest memories around the table, where always at friends houses. Good to know why, now.

Harri – I would say I’ve long stood up for inequality. But that then makes you a target. I guess being a target is no longer in my capabilities due to CPTSD. But I now see the masses are bravely pilling in on points of inequality, not that is safe to be a keyboard warrior. So I guess my question was more about stopping those impulses.  In fact I was brought up Catholic, but noticed my BPD mum was just in it for show and didn’t really believe. That led to me being agnostic – I believe in God, just not as defined by any group of human. Because humans corrupt it, turn it into the IRA or ISIS. But I wish I could make myself believe, because people with faith are apparently happier, live longer.  So I can see how denial, not going these, ignorance is bliss and all that. Does that make sense ?

Sunfl0wer,   I see you’re a person of subtl0ety. The crafty techniques you speek of sound like gorilla marketing.  I need to become more practiced in that. I’ve been too much hart on the sleeve, which is great for winning trust, but makes you are target for BPD