BPDFamily.com

Hi,

a month ago I posted a message that went unanswered, no wonder why I don't find answers in myself when no one here had anything to say, right? I'm not even sure what are the questions anymore.

(This was the post: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336104.msg13049276#msg13049276)

There have been about a hundred conversations about leaving me in our 5 year long RS. The difference now is that the kids know. Usually I'm waiting for her to leave as soon as she finds a place to live, but in the meantime I'm the father to her kids, then her anger fades away, a deep sadness takes over, and then she simply doesn't leave. That has been the pattern.

Now she's told the kids we are no longer a couple, that we are friends. And that they have to live somewhere else. Kids either don't believe it or don't care yet.

One reason we can no longer live like this is that we are not capable of educating these kids. She can't be consistent with limits and she's mad at me in front of them when I put a limit. She seems to be able to say NO to them, but she's not able to really mean it. The result is that we have a 12 and an 8 year old sons, and they behave like 3 y/o todlers.

Just yesterday, S12 took the TV remote without permission, then S8 when to fight him for it, after being told not to do so. S12 kicked S8 and S8 landed on a cristal table. Luckily he wasn't hurt bad. Mom screamed "you could have killed him!" and S12 said "That's what I wanted, I want him dead". While this exchange happened, S12 also kicked mom, but not as hard. These scenes go on everyday.

The rest of the day is half joking they do the opposite of what they are told. The day starts with them not waking up when we call them for 30-45 minutes and they are awake but they don't move until we are really angry, her mom crying in frustration... And that's how everyday starts (except weekends that the get up even 2 hours earlier than school days). And that's how it is for every small task (dress, go out, shower, homework...) 85% of family time goes away arguing about the next step. And a constant watch so S12 doesn't bully S8 (S12 started hurting S8 when he was a baby).

I say all this because kids are going to blame themselves that this didn't work. They already came from a broken home where their dad abused their mom, and admitedly didn't love S12.

A month ago she already told me they were leaving. Then she landed a job, and things changed. I had to be with the kids more time. The kids were angry they didn't have their slave full time, and openly said they were doing everything they could so she would lost her job. They didn't let her sleep, they tried to make her late... They were nastier than usual... So she lost the job.

She leaned on me, and things had been nice. Then yesterday, out of the blue she told me she was mad, and that I shouldn't touch her at all ever again. That she was trying to be my friend and nothing more. (We haven't had sex in months, and no unappropriate touching either). She told me she should go live with her sister, and later she told the kids they were going back to their father (not her, only them).

She told me she loves me but she can only hurt me and herself. And that she tries very hard to be a good friend to me, but still she ends up just hurting me. That she can't help being so angry, even when she knows I don't deserve it, but that she can't change.

What I felt for a long time is that she doesn't love me as a lover. She appreciates me, thinks I'm a good person, she values our friendship, and from time to time she finds me atractive and she Fxxs me. She tells me that's not true, that she's in love with me, but I don't see it. I'm just in her way and she complaints about everything about me 99% of the time. Then she tells me it's all in her head, not my fault, but I'm the one being told everything I do is wrong, and everything makes her mad or makes her hate me.

I'm sure many of you have given the RS everything you got, just like me. And then you don't know what would be life after this. I feel empty, I don't have hopes or ambitions, or any interest. I wish I could get a sick leave for depression, and try to get my life in order. Because I can't focus at job, I can't care enought to work well, and I've been 5 years spending more than I made, burning my savings. I'll have to find a smaller place or a flat mate, or something, and trust that some day I'll find a will to live.

It feels like she's killing me in slow motion. Because any move would be after the school year, in a month or so. I have the pain of the break up, but I see her everyday in my house. I'm angry, and depressed, and I'm very sad and worried about her too, and I love her, and I feel a great failure for not being able to make her see/feel I was always on her side.

I also see myself with her eyes, and I don't know who I am anymore. I'm not sure about anything. Having had her telling me things that didn't happen, mad with me about things I didn't do, describing thoughts I didn't have...For 5 years...

So sorry that no one responded to your previous post, Joe.

You've been shouldering a huge load for five years with providing for two ungrateful and disobedient children as well as your SO, who has been distancing herself.

You realize that it's a troubling issue that there is neither structure nor boundaries in how she's raising her sons and she doesn't support you when you try to intervene and set appropriate limits.

She's planned to leave and find another place to live, but your support has been so convenient, she hasn't followed through on her plans. You feel like she is using you, but you still care about her and want to help her. In doing so, it's drained you emotionally and financially. You've been so caught up in her drama that you've lost yourself.

This certainly seems like an untenable situation. If you imagine yourself five years in the future, how do you see your life changing? And what would it take to change the path you're currently on?

Thanks for answering,

I've been talking to her all day, texting, she bringing up all our failures. But also saying that it's part of the problem that she thinks I don't love the kids as much as they love me. And unconditionally, as in, I have to love them even if she is not in the picture. I should be asking for their custody? When they have a father and a mother? They are the kids of a friend, as she wants things. They have been the kids of my GF in a very unstable RS, where she never commited to me, and she always had a foot outside.

I've given everything to those kids even as they are the 2 people that treated me worse in my life. She thinks I don't stand the older kid. When I don't stand the same things (from his behavior) she doesn't stand and that she screams about them 500% more than me.

You summed it up pretty well. I can't imagine myself 5 days in the future, let alone 5 years. I have to survive this month first.

Self care...mega self care.  Focus on getting through the day with self care so tomorrow is better...then focus on making next week better.

When you have more "space" in your mind, you will be able to sort through relationship issue better.

Speaking of getting space.  How do you respond when she wants to talk about failures?  How long do those conversations last?

Best,

FF

I feel bad about the children, even more than about the grown ups in this situation. I wonder how things would stabilize if she were absent? Perhaps the relationships with the kids, and their behaviours, and your own behaviours, would normalize.

When my SO is not with us life is better for everyone, even though we love him and I wish he could be with us... the dynamic just doesn't work because of the mental illness.

 

I may be off base here, but often divorces occur in marriages with children because the spouses don't put each other first. 

The children sense this and acquire a sense of being overvalued.  They will attempt to pit one parent against the other. This is especially true in marriages with children from previous R/S.

Then add sibling rivalry to the mix.

The children already seen the woman as unstable, and will use this to their advantage.  In this way, children end up running the marriage or R/S.  This can't be sustained for long without damaging the R/S between the partners. 

I don't have much time today. Thanks for all your answers.

I finished my semester exams yesterday, as it has become usual, I was crying the day of the exam because my RS problems.

She's been kinder to me, as a friend. But she can be still rude when something bothers her. And she doesn't know where they're going. She tells the kids they're going with their father because she can't make them behave like humans. To me she tells me she doesn't know. Her sister has been evicted from a family house and her mother is paying for a year's rent until she can land on her feet. This sister is saying she's afraid to live alone, so she is considering moving in with her, and not leave the city.

Life is completely diffferent when S12 is not home. Stress is 5% of what we usually have. S8 is more relaxed, My exGF doesn't disregulate, and the 3 of us can agree on almost everything. We know it's not his fault, but that's how it is.

When ExGF is not around, the dinamic is more controlled, because when I say no, it is no, and I don't have to get very angry before they understand. Still, it is not merry. They don't push the limits 20 times, but they still push 10 times to see what happens. The dramatics are almost non existant " I hate my life, this familly is shXXX, I wish I was dead..." They must sense I don't buy them. They still fight each other a lot.

well that's all the time I have.

What I mean is that the big difference is when S12 is not with us. Not so much if the mother is not home. And even when S8 is out, and there are no fights between them, the violence is very high only with s12.

Hey Joe, sorry for missing your post a month ago, totally unintentional.

I have this image of you being held by the neck off your feet in a strangle hold, contained, at a safe distance such that you can't she can't be hurt by you. You are in an emotional straight jacket of FOG designed to keep you close, but not too close to hurt her... just in the right spot. Losing you would be disastrous, but having true intimacy is too risk and too painful for her... so there you are, legs dangling, contained and controlled. Friends, but more than friends.

This is all metaphorical of course, because you're not physically held and you can move, you can leave and you can push for more intimacy (which she would likely reject). I wonder, in fact I think it's highly probable that the threats, 'the push' has come from her sensing that she has come to rely on you too much owing to this new job and additional support you have offered... as she becomes emotionally engulfed she attempts to correct it with strangle hold and control.

What is your reaction to these threats? As FF asked, how long does the discussion last, what do you say?

Regarding SS12, this is tricky, we have spoken before about differentiating your parenting with you GF. However, when GF is around it seems like she attempts to sabotage your attempts to differentiate yourself and triangulates you... then puts you in a double blind. You can't stay neutral as she expects you to reinforce, you can't side with the kids else you aren't aligning yourself with her and you can't reinforce/rescue her because she instant flips sides and attempts to rescue the kids. It's one giant fast moving impossible Karpman triangle. We need to find a way where you can GET and STAY neutral in times when your GF is around.

HOWEVER... at the moment you have additional time with the kids where YOU CAN differentiate your behaviour. It is possible to have operation X for they are on their own with you, and operation Y for when it's them you and GF. This is what I do in my home and there is an observable difference in behaviour when my W is there and when she is not there. It's a bit like the way that I don't swear in front of my Mum. It's not conscious, I just don't do it. Like I switch gears. I think you can train the boys such that their behaviour switches gears when it's just you and them. You can show them that one way is painful, and one way is fun.

Enabler

Hi Enabler,

things have changed since a month ago. Her job is gone, it was unfair how she los tit, but that's another story. Things were way better when she had the job, and a couple of days after she lost it.

Then she brought up the break up again. And she told me I was behaving like I just realized we were no longer a couple, when we hadn't been for weeks. That's one of the downsides of never verbalizing when we are back together. She can be close and affectionate again, but then say we weren't a couple because she never said we were back together. So we could be no longer a couple for the last 2 years or 2 months, not sure. But "I should know it" black or white style.

I think they are leaving for real, I just don't know when and where. And I'm worried about them.

I'm also sad trying to picture my life without them. And sad because it failed, and how we became two strangers after being so close. After knowing each other very well, her doubts turned me into a stranger. The traits that make me who I am, she doesn't believe them, so what remains is someone that can't be known.  Imagine she's at the center of a clock and I'm at her 3, and she's trying to see me looking from 4 to 2 and back, refusing to look at her 3, and complaining she doesn't see me.

The trigger here has been the violence from the kids and realizing they're not getting better living with us. None of the 3 of them are better than when we started to live together. None of us, really. She sees how hurt and broken I am. She can't see an end where she wouldn't be angry at me all the time, and then deeply ashamed because she knows I didn't deserve it. If we had many probles but the kids were thriving, it would be different. But S12 is going from socially clumsy to full psico. S 8 is learning from him and also living a childhood full of abuse (from his brother, his hero), it has become his normal. She can't take it anymore, she starts everyday talking to them very affectionatelly, but they are screaming at each other 5 minutes after the time of waking up. She can't take it and she cries, or she screams back, or tells them she can't take it anymore. 

She sees they need another style in parenting, but she can't give it, and she can't watch it either. She says I would educate them way better, but she can't witness it.

In short, we are all unhappy, but she says they can leave me so I have another life, and I don't have to be responsible for them.

I don't know if that counts as threats. I respond that I want to be with them, that I don't want them to leave, and that I understand what she says.

She told me that I see things differently. If one truth is said, for me it is said, and written in stone. For her, she needs to hear it again and again. Or she understands I'm saying the opposite. So for me, when she says she doesn't believe something we already discussed, I get sad and I say nothing. And she is expecting me to say the same I said again and again and she doesn't believe. For me it's like she knows what I did/said/thought but she's repeating that she doesn't believe it. That's a problem.

But then again, many times I have no clue of what she's talking about and she can only explain it saying "I've told you a hundred times". She needs me to repeat things endlessly but she also needs me to remember every word she said.

I've been only with 2 women. But both did this: They told me "always give me hot water" AND "always give me cold water". So if I gave them hot water they would tell me "I've told you a million times to always give me cold water", or viceversa. When I say always this or that, I mean always, and I don't say it often, because I have to be sure first.

The "discussions" about our failings last forever, they never end. It's more like explaining why we don't work and that we try in circles, and she saying it's all her fault, but she's not going to change. We have to do whatever and we stop talking, and then some other time we continue, well, she does, I mostly listen. Like I said before, my brain rules out what I've already said, so many times there's nothing to say anymore.

She brings up things that we discussed in the past and that were proven to be wrong, or non existant. But she remembers them again as if they happened yesterday and the evidence that were false had not come. One thing could be related to me wanting her only for sex, and after 5 years with almost no sex and me never demanding more, or complaining, she can still say it.

I'm bringing here a lot of frustration from my past and present. But the truth is, I have to deal with life AFTER them, not with them. I ran out of tools, and energy, and options. Still, I'm more worried about what will become of them, as I see they have less options than myself. I'm worried that the father will say NO to taking custody of the kids (he was never interested, not even sent a birthday card to them). Or worried that he says yes, and then she kills herself. OR that they go live with her drug-adict sister, who is probably BPD too with a big dose of narcisism...

I can't just convince myself that "they're not my problem anymore".

What steps have you seen your GF take to actively move out? Ignoring the noise, accusations and general talk about leaving... what action have you seen? What reason can you think of that she will actively seek to change the status quo of you being hung by the neck where she wants you?

What does life after look like? Could you list some positive and negative things about how your life might evolve after she and her sons leave you?

Enabler

Hi,

I know, there haven't been active steps. However, there are some differences:

- She has told the children.
- She has called her ex and told him "You were right, I can't raise the kids on my own, I can't take it anymore..."
- She's told her family we are not a couple anymore. They, and even her ex tell her "what have you done?, apologize to Joe, and he'll take you back." This makes her furious.
- Her mother has come to some money, and she's giving her a chunk, so she has an option to start over somewhere else.

- And last but not least, I have lost hope. I'm not begging her to stay, I'm not contradicting that we can't be happy together.

To even begin to think about positive things about a life without them, it fills me with guilt. I feel like a bad person.

It is clear that tangible practical things would be almost all positive, and all negative things are emotional.

I've been living in fear, under Damocles sword. Any time the violence of S12 or the resentment from GF could hit me unannounced. Always looking over my shoulder "Am I doing something that's gonna angry her?" You know, the whole walking on eggshells thing.   So, I'm gonna have infinite more peace if I'm alone. Anything I'll do that I think it's right and honest, would be right and honest.

But on the other hand, I don't have a will to live. My job is very demanding and not rewarding. So working hard just to stay alive without a purpose, it doesn't fill me with hope.

I know time will help, and I'll see things I don't see now. So I'll try to keep on, working, studying... I'll try to do more nice things for myself. I have stopped doing so many things I used to do, and now I'm not interested in them, I feel completely empty. And I absolutely feel I'm not capable of having another relationship.

Joe,

Lets assume she's gone, she's living there but it's nailed on that she's going, she knows that and you know that. There is no hope for the relationship and you've reached a hopeless state of rock bottom... you're there. Things cannot actually get any worse can they?

What are you going to do now? Absolutely any direction you choose now is positive, it's potentially even exciting...

If you choose to go back and do a bunch of things you used to do and enjoyed, and she doesn't like it, shouts at you and moves out... is that any worse than current?... doesn't sound like it.

If when she berates you about S12 you just walk off and say "I don't need to listen to you shouting at me", and she shouts more and then leaves... is that any worse than current?

If you differentiate the way you treat S12, make your own plan and execute totally independently from GF and she shouts and calls you names and moves out... is that any worse than current?

If you say assertively to your GF, "Get you hand off from around my neck, put me down on the floor and leave me alone"... and she shouts, says you don't love her and moves out... is that any worse than current?

Whatever you do is positive to YOUR situation, YOU are not fully responsible for this situation. From what I have read YOU are not responsible for this situation at all... SO... I know you feel guilt and me telling you not to is pointless, BUT you have no reason to feel guilty. If she cannot tolerate you asking to be treated with common decency and the respect you deserve (the respect every upstanding citizen deserves) and SHE decides to walk then so be it. Open the door WIDE, leave it open, show her how wide open it is. Then go about your life managing your stuff whilst she is forced to manage her stuff. Always be FAIR (to her and YOURSELF), always be honourable, always do the right thing... AND DO NOT LET HER DEFINE WHAT CONSTITUTES ANY OF THE ABOVE AS SHE CLEARLY DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE.

   YOUR LIFE CAN ONLY GET BETTER FROM HERE   

Enabler

Yeah, that's a supper dupper positive way to look at it. And I thank you for it.

A thing that I try to teach the kids is that if something is bad, even if it's good for me, it's still bad.

So, even if this is a positive change for me. Still the woman I love and the kids that have been my only kids don't have a future. She has child support that pays for the school and food, not leaving a cent for rent. And appart from me, they don't really have anyone that cares about them. So yeah, I'll be doing my hobbies or just doing nothing and no one would blame me. But I'll still be worried sick about them.

I'm divorced. My ex had familly and tons of friends, she changes jobs like T-shirts, but she always has one and does OK. Her general health is good. Still, when I divorced I was very worried for a long time about her well-being. And after years seeing that she's fine, I could stop worrying.

I don't know how her ex did it. He left home (in handcuffs) and then he closed the electricity and heating contracts of the house his kids lived in. Then spent months not paying child support, and only contacted to scream, threat and insult. Well, he got the gist of only caring about himself to the highest degree. He didn't care about his own kids having a roof over their heads or food in their bellies, let along their education or happyness.

I'm not like that. I can't just change my programing and think "Oh, they're just a friend and her kids".

She's been mean to me too many times, but she's also been sweet, and she is in so much pain, and she is a constant victim of abuse by the kids. They only need the reason that thy are bored to keep abusing her. Yesterday and today she's been very sick, with high fever and shaking and almost unable to breathe from athsma. The kids fight and play around her, and complain and demand exactly the same. If she dropped dead, they would be angry she's not doing what they asked for a couple of days before realizing she is dead. That's how they treat her. 

Note what I suggested above. I didn't suggest that you turn into her ex... that's frankly a d!ckish thing to do to anyone, let alone your own kids. It would seem he doesn't care and is very heartless... YOU, seem the other extreme, you care so much you neglect yourself. I'm suggesting that you reach a middle ground where you accept that you can choose different directions and ALL of them will be good for you as long as you start making fair choices that involve being fair to you as well... you know that's okay, that doesn't make you a bad person for figuring yourself in the equation. The result may be that your GF and her sons may move out, and it may result in sub-optimal outcomes for the kids, but what can you really do to influence this? Unless you plan on approaching social services, telling them that she is an unfit mother and seek custody she can at any moment up and leave and action her threats.

What would happen if you accepted her threats, carried on with your life in a manner that was fair and just and right, without the need for entertaining her conflict or destructive behaviour... and saw whether or not she actually carried out her threats.

Enabler

I'm trying to take it with humor, but I wasn't being sarcastic, I need to hear these things you're saying.

I get anxious about thinking "should I move to a shared flat?" "Should I try to rent one of the rooms of my current flat (Illegally)? Which one?" "Will I keep the car, or sell it?" Then I think I don't have to do those things right away. I can survive till the end of the year without needing to make some drastic changes. I can see how's life first.

I get teary when a romantic song comes in my head or on the radio. And I spend the day trying to not go to that emotional place. I work with public, and a couple of days ago I was assisting a person unable to stop the tears "Good morning, can I see some ID?" And the person was like "Where's the camera?"

I should clarify, her mother TOLD that she was giving her some money. But she's promised help many times and then at the last moment acted as if she never said a word. She's buying the kids some toys, so maybe in her mind she's doing enough. Her family comes from European nobility, big families with money and a name. I never trusted people like that, but I couldn't imagine how rotten their lives were in private.  Their stories seem to be out of the Stieg Larsson's books.

The situation right now is ridiculous, and weird. The kids talk as if they were going to be back next school year, she says they're going to their father, but she has no clue where SHE would go. But still, we have to live everyday and do everyday's tasks, in the same house. The kids come to me as sons, and she is being mostly kind and grateful (but not close).

Two days ago, she lost it, not in a rage, but feverish and shaking and crying. She called the kids some very strong names, and told them she hasn't heard about any kids that love their mother less and that are this cruel to their mother. She was very ashamed afterwards, and about how she treats me too. If you've seen previous posts, she's been a dedicated mother 200%, she might have been wrong in her approach, but she's been dedicated, focused, active, kind, loving... My parents were ok to me, but not even in my Bday they treated me as well as she treats them everyday. It is the one thing she had, being a mother, and she's losing that too.

I'm not making a lot of sense and not really answering your questions, but I'm thankful. My head is not organized these days, I just need to get some things out of my chest.
 

Keep focusing on the things in your control, that's you, and your interaction with others.

We all bring our own parenting model to the party, if she doesn't know what good parenting looks like then she's unlikely to be able to bring it to the party on a consistent basis. I see similar dynamics at home, my W is very devoted, however when the children are defiant she skips through the assertive parent bit and goes straight to telling the kids they're the worst and how it's all their fault... which ultimately leads to them being more defiant.

Since her coming or going changes with the wind... I'd stop looking to her to determine how you're going to behave on that front. By all means be emotional prepared for all outcomes... but you can't live in both camps so pick one you like and act consistently as if that's happening. Make plans for bad things to happen but act as though they're not. Lead... she may follow... she may not.

Enabler

Many times getting stuff out there (off your chest) makes things seem better.

I noticed you had some big "life organizing" questions at the start of your last post.  Don't you think it best to wait until your head is "better organized" to work through those?  As you said...they don't have to be decided right now.

As I looked over Enabler's post I got to wondering.  Is your pwBPD the kind of person that carries through on her threats? 

Best,

FF

Hi,

I don't know what to say. I don't see the point in thinking about parenting, when they're gonna be out of my reach. I'll be a distant uncle at best.

Just to answer Enabler, she never blames the kids. She blames herself. If they are horrible, it's all her fault. Although there are plenty of family members in their genetic pool that behaved like them.

I don't know where I can lead anyone when I wish I could just dissapear.

She's there, and when she's kind, or sad,  I'm dying to take her and kiss her, and say that I love her. But I'm not going to do the same as always. I'm not going to say "you overtayed your welcome" either. As it pains me to not know where they are or how they survive.

If things were good, they were going to be out of town all summer, and I was to join them while I could. So they're gonna be away, and I'm gonna be alone at home, and maybe then she will trace a real plan for next year.

She can't go anywhere without some help, so she has to talk to somebody, not just decide.

I told her that I think she can only be happy in her old town, as it is the only place she talks about with hope. She took it as hurrying them to go. And I told her is an honest painful thought to me. For that she would need a big cash gift from her mother (or her ex), a loan, or something, and finding a job there. She hates my city (Although she was born here, and I wasn't), and she loves that small town. And the kids might benefit from a simpler life there.

We know that all outcomes are on the table for her to choose, and we know YOU can't choose for her. You can however pick the path you prefer and focus all your energy into that path... it's not faking it since you accept that it might not be what she chooses. I'm not suggesting you pat her on the behind and say "how's about it treacle" (never advisable)... BUT, you can keep walking in the direction you want to go in... and whilst the kids are still living with you, they need parenting. That MIGHT change in the future but until it does, you need to parent them. Like I said before, listen to her actions and less to her words.

I can imagine you thinking "If I listen to Enabler I will be disappointed that I have spent all my energy focussing on them staying (or leaving) and the outcome didn't work out that way." Disappointment comes from not accepting that the negative outcome is and always was possible and that she can and could choose that other path at any time. Keeping this in mind just means you've spent some energy doing what you wanted.

Enabler

Alas, Enabler,

I think I lose some of the nuances of what you say, and the meaning of some expressions or figurative language, since English is my 2nd language. For example: "how's about it treacle" I have no clue what that means, nor I can find it. Nevertheless, I hope I get enough of the message.

All these years I've been focusing on them staying without real hope that they will, so, in a way, I think I've been doing what you say. Accepting they might just leave anyway.

My feelings for her say that I want her to stay. But I'm not sure anymore that's the best for anyone. I wish it wasn't that complicated.

What about if you focused on something else rather than them staying specifically. Since that is something you cannot control (unless you specifically decide to eject her). What about if you focused on you being the best possible person who interacted with them in a healthy, conflict free, fair way? That leaves the choice whether or not they stay or go up to them. Your objective isn't whether or not people stick around you, it's that when people are around you you interact with them in an awesome way.

Can you see the nuance here? If your objective is for them to stay, you will inevitably morph yourself into something that you think will make them stay. If your objective is to have healthy relationships with people, to be a good parent and minimise conflict, you may 'win' regardless of the outcome of her staying or leaving.

"how's about it treacle" = a slightly cheeky/rude way of proposing sex, usually accompanied with a pat on the bottom.

Enabler

I get that, and it seems something to focus on that might help me and the situation also.

I feel a bit stupid, because she is comunicating a lot more, and being grateful and kind. And she feels like a different person than the one I was ready to let go. I know rationally that she is (at least) these two people, she's been these two and more. I've been distant and now I feel closer to her.

I guess this aproach helps anyway. If I try to be the best version of myself, that works for me whether they stay or they go. Not many days in the future, I'll have to stablish some rules and make some long term decissions, but this is a break that feels good for today.

Maybe she sees something in you that is making her pull towards you?

This certainly can be the case and some board members manage the relationship such that they perpetuate the 'pull' to some extent.

I generally try to do this. 

I would claim to have some success in doing this, although I have no idea how you separate out this strategy from other things I'm doing or not doing in order to have a calmer (more satisfying) relationship.

Basically I don't "chase" my wife for attention. 

Let's say I express interest in a date night with her.  If she accepts I don't go on and on about it and how wonderful and I couldn't live without her and (fill in the blank).

If she declines I stay neutral and I make sure it's obvious that I'm doing something else satisfying or perhaps I go do what I invited her to go do. 

FF

Well, she's in a bad mood again.

Just saying she's not feeling up to talking to anyone. When she texts me is pesimistic stuff about herself and life in general, concluding "I just want this day to end" (for the last 3 days).

Yesterday I asked the kids to come out with me, but only one came, but when we are at home it's just like we are 4 strangers sharing a flat. The kids only want TV or videogames and we get tired of sugesting other activities with no support.

They skiped school today, when they have only 2 days left, and no one is sick or anything. Some mild cold maybe. Buy I get the feeling that she just gives up. That the kids ask to stay home and not go to school, and she doesn't want to fight. They've missed a lot of days this year, due to several illnesess, but also some days being OK to go.

It worries me that they don't develop a sense of "duty". That there are things you have to do whether you like them or not. I think the more they are allowed to think that the world is something that should be as they like it to be, the more frustrated they are with reallity, and the more crippled they are to face normal daily challenges.

You should see how angry and frustrated S12 is when he gets confused tying his shoes, as if anyone but him was responsible of his rage and misfortune. This happens because he refused to practice until he was 11 (because S7 tied his own shoes before him), and then he avoids to untie and tie them at all costs. They both do, but S8 at least doesn't get angry when he tries and fails.

This way, getting out of bed, showering, getting dressed... They see all those tasks as huge favors they do to us, and often they ask for a prize or negociate in advance. "If I shower now, then can I play this videogame?" No matter how many times we explain that those are things everyone just has to do.

Many times I meet them on the street after they had been shoping. My exGF is carrying 6 grocery bags, and they are not carrying anyone, worse, they are running and fighting each other around her. I've pointed out many times that that's not right. And I've asked them to carry something... S12 just says "NO" and runs far so we don't dare to offer him a bag. S8 usually helps after we ask him directly.

Yesterday, I calmly said to S12: "OK, you had the family TV to yourself for more than 4 hours straight, now mum is just asking you to take your shower, that's not much to ask after you had what you wanted for 4 hours, right? You should feel happy and grateful after we gave you what you asked, and we're not even asking something for us..." Well, on that line. And... nothing, he didn't shower, and he kept asking for the usual things, until bed time.

I try to speak to him and see some glimse of remorse, guilt, empathy, conscience, of caring about anyone other than himself... And I don't see any. He just doesn't care, or he blocks any feeling or thought about others, as if we didn't really existed (except to annoy him, to be obstacles to get what he wants). I see a void. And it is scary. S8 some days is exactly like that, and some other day's he's not, and he can argue and reason about other's feelings, and say things that make sense. So it is puzzling. But at least you can remember some good will when he's behaving bad. I don't have any memory of S12 being kind and polite, and caring to go back to.

As our daily life revolves around his mood, I end up thinking a lot about him and talking a lot about him here and anywhere. Even as the issue today is that her mum is not talking to me, again.

I'm going home from work, let's see what I find there.

Hey...this really jumped out at me.

He has been trained to be this way.  It's not something you can change with reasoning.  It's going to have to come through life experience and consistency.

When a child is OK  NOT haveing (fill in the blank), then it's likely safe to allow them to have that activity.

So, when he has a good attitude with NO TV whatsoever..., then perhaps it's safe to start letting him have TV time.

Right now he has been trained to understand TV comes first...his pleasure comes first and if he can do (xyz) he will get out of his responsibilities.

This will take a while to undo and will take consistency from the parental figures in his life. 

Is that possible? 

This has to be hard to watch...

Best,

FF

My 6yr old daughter has for the last 3.5yrs got up every night and got into the spare bed with my W. She does this like clockwork. Even before our marital breakdown this was an issue, and issue I used to attempt to address (badly) with my W. She claimed she couldn’t do anything about it because D6 would scream the house down if she attempted to return her to bed.

Now this doesn’t happen very often and only when my W is away, but only a few times has D6 attempted to get into my bed in the middle of the night and each time I have returned her to bed, and, I’ve never found her in the spare bed in the morning when W is away for the night.

As FF states, this is learnt behaviour. The solution could be that there is no TV for anyone whilst they are awake until he can do XYZ as instructed. Remove the fuse in the plug.

That all said, I think you know this. Is your issue that your ex would then just shout at you in an attempt to stop any conflict?  Is this kind of teaching only possible when she’s out for example? I know that’s the case for me. Should one take a stand on the issue and face off against the ex in this situation... thus SHOWING her what good parenting looks like?  I have had to plough on through looks of disgust and contempt before only to see that the ‘teaching’ bore fruit and W saw that.

Enabler

That's exactly right,

My exGf says kids go 1st. And I told her, right, their needs to 1st, their wellbeing goes 1st, but their leisure doesn't go before the needs, duties, and even the health of the adults, or their own education. She's put away her dental needs and spends a lot of money on hundreds of little toys for them to ignore after 3 minutes.

When we turn the order of things, S12 makes everyone's lives unbearable. He will refuse to do his thing, but he would also sabotage everyone else's tasks. We can't do anything because we just have to watch him all the time and be between him and S8 so he doesn't hurt him. And that's also hard, because then, S8 forgets the bullying, and wants to play with his brother. 1 minute into any game, and S8 is hurt and crying.

If the rest of us earned the break and the time to watch a movie, we don't do it because S12 has no TV. If we watch something he isn't interested in, or try to keep him away, he would bang the walls, sing, scream, make a mess somewhere, make S8 frantic... So it is impossible for us to watch it, let alone enjoy it.

To get anything done we often give up and just put something on the TV, so they are hipnotized and we can cook lunch, or whatever. Or just to stop the tachycardia of dealing with them for 5 minutes.

Many things have been done wrong, but still that void is something else.

I tried to change that. And my RS is a problem. Because when she's in kind mode, I can say something, and it's ok. But often, if I say "shower first, TV after" or something of the sort. Then I get a "you're an axxxle" in front of the kids, and the TV gets turned on.

So there's no consistency. At all.

This year it has been the phone. He was allowed to carry one. And he's become addicted, like a full blown drug addict. Stealing it when we were asleep, hitting us when we take it, cursing, threatening suicide... Way off the rails. So we both say: you are not mature enough to have a phone. And I mean it, but 2 days later she gives it to him again.

The phone has been at Grandma's house for some weeks too, because when Gramma asked him to give it back, after he stole it from Mom's purse, he ran away with it, and then trying to keep it he hit Gramma. She was speechless, and we asked her to keep the phone at her house.

At this moment, they are on their way to Grandma's house to pick it up for an activity at the school tomorrow. Big mistake IMO. He always asks to have it back because he"needs"it for something at school. As if he cared about school at all. And then a war is needed to have it back.

As she is mad at me now, anything I say is twisted into something very destructive. So I don't see a way to help here.

After lunch, S8 was asking non stop for videogames, and he was told no 30 times. He was bothering mom. And she was out of patience. So I asked " why don't you come and read something with me?" And she answered very mad : "my son is talking with me, you have to steal him from me?" I had been 20 minutes at home, and they were together all day, so it didn't make any sense.

But that's her mood today.

We weren't angry. She's angry at me. And I give her space and try to approach with caution. But after some answers like that, and the unfairness of it all, I start to feel angry myself.

Well, I'm gonna do something nice, now that I'm alone.

OK..so you understand that HER parenting choices are destructive.

I get it that you feel many time you must go along with it, yet now that the relationship is in EX status I'm wondering if you do or should think differently about this.

Boundaries work both ways.  They keep people out of your business and it keeps you out of theirs.

I hate to have to type this, yet it seems obvious her parenting choices are her business and you are essentially along for the ride.  Am I correct on this?

That's got to hurt to see kids you care about being led down a path to doom.

The dynamic is that an entitled child is hard to play with, so they get more stuff, feel more entitled, they are harder to play with which ends up with them being very remote and self centered.   Uggg...I'm so sorry.

What choices do you have in this matter?

Best,

FF

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This thread reached maximum post limit and has been split and locked.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337495.msg13059562#msg13059562