BPDFamily.com

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336827.0
The counting is part of 1-2-3 Magic, a parenting technique DD and I learned together at the suggestion of our T. It's become something completely different now. The key is staying calm, emotionless and leaving space between the numbers, finally stating, "That's 3, take five" followed by a time-out if the behavior continues. It worked like a charm at first, but no longer.

DD now screams, "THAT'S ONE, THAT'S TWO, THAT'S THREE, TAKE FIVE MISTER!" GS does NOT take-five, he runs away screaming and throwing things. When he's finally caught and placed in his room, his door is locked and he starts banging on the door and cussing at her, calling her a :cursing: :cursing: DD believes GS is on the autism spectrum/has ADHD and "nothing works with him." She can't see her part in why it's not working. Of course she's exhausted, at the end of her rope with him.

GS now loses his marbles when I say, calmly, "That's one." I think 1-2-3 Magic should be a thing of the past in our home. DD has even counted her BF, but not me.

~ OH

At the same time, her expectations for his behavior are completely unrealistic for his age/maturity level. GS pushes the limits constantly.

~ OH

I like this.

I've asked DD what she needs and she tells me she needs more time away from him. Her BF takes him some Tuesday and Thursday afternoons, but cancels fairly regularly with some excuse or other. I take over on Wednesdays after I get home from work, and I wake up with him and hang with him on Saturdays until after his nap. I try to plan things away from the house so she can sleep in and have time to herself. I suggested a drop in daycare for one day a week and she rejected the idea.

I think she'll never admit it to herself, even, that she'd rather not have the responsibility of caring for him. I also think she can't admit it because it brings her shame/guilt. She loves GS, there's no doubt about that, she just doesn't have the skills, patience, emotional maturity, to be the mother he needs.

~ OH

Do you think she might be capable of that when he’s a bit older?

Yes, I think it will be easier when he's a bit older. I do worry, though, that he is developing ODD which will only make things more difficult as time goes by. Today has been mostly good but when I tell GS no or ask him to do something he doesn't want to do, he flips.

He had a bath and was splashing. I told him if he splashes again, bath time is over. He splashed again and I pulled the plug. He scooped a huge amount of water and threw it at me then ran from me when I said, "Take five." I told him, "Here's the deal, you can take five or you can go to bed. It's your choice, what do you choose?" He chose take-five.

The same thing happened last week when I told him it was time for wind down. He had a pot of dirt in his hands and flung it at me.

Wind down time is over now and I'm about to begin the bed time routine. I hope it goes well, I'm old and tired and losing patience.

~ OH

Hi OH

So the counting thing isn’t working any more for any of you. I think it was great that you found it in the first place!  I looked outwards for help and support in all sorts of ways. Looking inwards just left me feeling isolated, fearful and tired.


There’s four things packed in here that are BIG!.
Skills.
Patience.  
Emotional maturity.  
Be the mother he needs.

The current strategy is to give your daughter some time out to help her cope, return to a more “patient” stance. Yes, very important.

It’s a shame she doesn’t agree to a drop-in where GS can make friends and widen his experiences : a win win situation.

You’re in a difficult place OH. I know you don’t agree with your daughter’s way disciplining. Just how far it is going is worrisome. You can’t change her and to watch the drama play out must be a real challenge. To not come across as judging particularly difficult and to try to protect and guide. It seems like just too much for anybody.


I’m not surprised. I think you’re a superwoman getting this far!

What’s the likelihood of daughter moving on with her life elsewhere? Is she likely to move in with BF?


I say this kindly, by agreeing to look after your GS to give your daughter some time out as a solution to her patience - you are required to raise your own patience levels. You rely on your daughter’s wider parenting ability to have a well behaved GS. If this isn’t working for you then you can stop.

You have to take care of yourself OH because they rely on you. Your “time out” is more important than your daughter’s because you are required to be doubly patient: with daughter and GS.

This post was originally about how can you approach your daughter about punching your GS. I’m opening up to more wider concerns and if I’m out of order then please say. I wonder how long you can sustain this level of energy you’re putting into this. I suggest that doing less, might in fact, be an option. What does that look like to you?

How are you today?

LP

She has nowhere to go. BF's house is filled with cockroaches and cat :cursing: from 10+ cats living indoors and out and BF's mother is mentally unstable. If she goes there, I've already decided I'll call CPS.


Thanks for the reminder that I can stop.


The length of time I can sustain this is getting shorter by the day. It sickens me how she talks to him, yells at him, hurts his little body, his heart, his sense of self. I go back and forth between wanting to use the tools here and wanting to put her on blast and give her an ultimatum: Get help or I'll petition for guardianship. When this went down last year, I didn't have the financial means to pursue that route. I've since refinanced my house and got cash back to do some repairs/upgrades. My floors can wait. Then again, I am old, I'll be 68 when GS turns 18. If I live that long. Given how DD parents GS, it's a good chance he'll be messed up and I feel like I've paid my dues already.


At the extreme level, it looks like me evicting DD and GS with 60-day notice. That brings the full wrath of DD on me and on GS for 60 long days only to have her leave without a forwarding address, possibly out of state with someone she just met on the internet, possibly to her BF house. Last year, following the eviction which I rescinded last minute, DD made life miserable for both me and GS. I guess I don't see a less extreme level. It seems impossible for me to do less and still have her living here. I can't turn my back on GS.


Thanks for asking. I'm not doing great. My BFF came over tonight after GS was in bed (bedtime went great) and we talked about how DD will receive my message - "not well" is putting it mildly. We both believe I won't get past, "GS told me you punch him." There doesn't seem to be any good outcome. I fear DD will snatch GS up and leave immediately.

GS will be awake in a few short hours, I'm going to bed. Thank you for your thoughtful response, LP. I've got notifications set for this thread and I'm checking my email constantly for help with this.

~ OH

Hi OH.  

I don't remember so I am sorry if I am asking you to repeat something already covered.  Is GS in preschool?  If not, can he go?  Or what about day care?  Getting him out of the house and away from his mom 24/7 sounds like a good idea.  :(  The poor little guy may have ADHD like your daughter thinks, and that is all the more reason to get him in a setting where he is around other kids in a structured and nurturing environment.  I think it would also be interesting to see if his behaviors happen outside of the home where
he is being verbally and physically abused and under arbitrary rules set my his mothers moods.

I know you are doing everything within your power.  I also know your hands are tied.  

At 4.5 years old, he can still be helped significantly.  also, he has you offering him unconditional love, boundaries, validation and structure.   Not all kids raised by a mom with BPD are doomed.  Many of us have issues for sure, and I have a hard time imagining getting out of a home with an untreated mentally ill parent without some issues, but many of us are far more healthy than you would think.  In large part to having a loving person such as you in our life at such a critical time.

I don't know what to recommend in terms of talking with your DD about hitting GS.  I would be afraid too.  Maybe finding alternative care like daycare or preschool is a partial solution?  He gets away, can be around kids his own age and your daughter gets time alone.

 

.Hi OH
I think Harri brings great perspective as a child of a parent wBPD. Things do look bad with your GS but he may well turn out OK in the end and that may well be because of you. Take ❤ that you are doing an heroic job.
 I know you are at the end of your patience
 Maybe you can get at least a quick breather while your daughtet is out of town. My only other thought at this point is pour on the empathy so she doesn't feel judged when you bring up the subject of hitting. "Many parents get frustrated with their kids and feel like hitting them. You are parenting under particularly challenging circumstances. Anyone would be frustrated. Let's work together on making sure GS is safe." Something like that.

Hi OH

Thanks for filling us in and I’m sorry you’re finding it tough today. So glad you’ve a BFF to lean on who knows your situation well. Worth their weight in gold I bet.

So overall since you rescinded the eviction notice, are there any positives or any small improvements for you and/or your daughter?

I hope there may be something that you can hold on to and that may help you. Recognising how far we’ve come is very important. Recognising that you’re daughter is doing her very best but that everybody can try harder. Do you feel she’d be open to that suggestion?

Perhaps the Description fact: could open up with positive facts?  

“Look how far we’ve come. You xxx. I xxxx. GS xxx. We learn together through our mistakes. When things aren’t working, we try a different approach. A problem has arisen that I wanted to talk to you about.”

Express: it’s making really worried.

Assert.
Reassert.

Pause...wait for her to come back.

You’ve already predicted that she’ll say GS is lying.

Repeat assertion - do not get distracted from the main goal and that’s to assert what you want to happen.

Just other ideas. More heads are better than one! You’ll find what feels right for you OH in your own time.

Thoughts?

Hugs
LP

GS was in preschool briefly last year, four hours daily. GS was aggressive and defiant there as well and DD was talked to about his behavior daily. He was hitting and kicking other kids, screaming at staff and kids, running away from and throwing things at staff when they attempted to impose consequences, etc. Two days before Thanksgiving break, DD was called to pick him up because he was throwing chairs at kids and screaming that he wanted to kill everyone. Since DD was planning her out of state move the day before Thanksgiving, she didn't bring him back for the final day before break. When it was decided that she would stay, she didn't bring him back after break because she said she didn't like how they treated him during the chair-throwing incident. They had him in a corner with three adults standing over him, he was out of control, a danger to the other kids.


If only DD would agree to it. I believe she is against the idea because she fears GS will talk about the abuse. She rejected my suggestion to have him attend the drop-in daycare on our street, "No way, I've walked past that house crying and screaming on the phone."

He missed the cutoff for starting kindergarten this year by 17 days so it will be 14 months before he can go to school.

GS is up and at em. I've read all the replies. Thanks Faith and Lollypop. Family dinner is tonight and I'm scrapping my original menu (BBQ pork spareribs) for take-n-bake pizza. That's me practicing self-care.

~ OH

i would certainly at least anticipate an intense reaction.

youve gotten great advice, and this is as difficult a situation as there can be. i think one thing i might suggest (and im sure you know) is not to react and get into it with her, keep your cool. within a certain limit, id let her blow up if thats what shes going to do...blow off steam.

i think if you dont shut down the conversation, and dont fuel it, it may increase the likelihood that once shes back to baseline, it may be possible to have a more constructive conversation.

in other words, i might anticipate that this would be (hopefully) the start of a conversation, and it may be a very rocky one, but that doesnt have to mean it will remain that way.

Thanks for telling us all that about GS.  My gosh he sounds like he is full of anger and frustration.  Hard to tell if it is due to ODD/ADHD or environmental or a combination of factors. 

There are lots of things to consider here and I know what I am talking about is not at the top of the list of concerns.  I do think that finding alternative care needs to be part of the conversation.  He will not be able to be in kindergarten if he is is going to hurt and threaten others so it needs to be addressed.  The fact that he is learning this from his mother with whom he spends most of his time is the issue.  It would not be fair to him to have him stuck with a label that may or may not be accurate.

Can you approach it as GS needs help for his ADHD?  lets find him a program as what we are doing is not working.

Working with your daughter and trying to find ways to communicate without setting her off is important and it seems to be making little progress.  Time to shift gears.

Hi Only Human  

I've been reading, weighing whether to comment or not. This situation is very close to mine. My old posts tell a lot of the story.
I am really sorry you are going thru this.
I think an alternative care plan for your grandson is a very good idea. Harri is so right in the above post, such great insight.
At the same age your grandson is, mine was doing the same things. Also, things like ODD, Autism and ADHD were being discussed. He is now 12, has ADHD, PTSD and reactive attachment disorder, and very severe problems from the abuse he suffered. He had a therapist from the age of 3  thru the entire time before going into the group home at the age of 10.
He lives in a group home in state custody because no one can handle him. His mother put him there. I dont know if he is ever coming out, he was there a year and he was just court ordered to stay there a second year.  I offered to just take him when he was about 5, and have him live with me, and my son said no.
I called CPS on my own son, and did not do it anonymously, many times.  He knows I did, he's seen the reports. I confronted him about his behavior toward his child and his allowing his wife to abuse his child, for which she was eventually arrested.
He cut off contact with me for 3 years. I got to see my grandson via his mother, who also abused him.
I dont want to write a novel here, but what I see is your daughter is holding both you and your grandson hostage with her rage and behavior. My DIL does that. I dont think there will be any winners here unless that boy get some real help. There aren't any winners in my situation.  I am not trying to be harsh, I know how hard it is, and I am not trying to make it worse. You can only do what you can do.

Much love,
E22  oxoxox

Thank you all. I've read all the replies many times over and am still formulating my approach. Today, DD came home with some bright poster board and bright shapes, saying she wants to work on some visuals for GS's behavior. I'm glad she's looking for solutions. This may be a good opening.

~ OH

That seems like she's trying.

Hi there OH,

I've been away for a bit and just caught up on your latest.  My heart goes out to you with all that you are going through and I just wanted to offer my support along with everyone else. I think of you daily since your situation is so similar to mine. Your love for your grandson is evident and its obvious that you are doing your best to do the right thing for both your DD and GS. 

Its emotionally draining and distressing to witness the dysregulation in our DD as well as the abuse/impact it has on our GS. It weighs on  me every day and night and if I am not careful it can take over my life. Like you,  I almost always practice SET, but lately it has not been effective with my DD who has been raging daily at me and my GS. I struggle also with the most effective way to communicate with my DD.

Of late, I have been focusing on self care: exercising, reading, painting and getting out of the house and away from the drama as often as I can. Like you I am concerned about the safety of my GS when he's home alone with DD, but I know I need self care to be healthy enough to provide the support they both need. A walk outside or a good movie or book offer a few minutes of "virtual vacation" to give my emotions a break and allow me to recharge. What are you doing for self care or to restore yourself?

Please know that you are not alone, and others here understand the difficult situation that you are in. When I read your posts they resonate so much with me its uncanny. Please take care and keep us posted on your situation and progress.

Hugs,
HO

Firstly, my apologies for not speaking to the great responses I've gotten since my last post. I have read all and appreciate the support. GS is going down for his nap and will leave for a bit with DD's BF when he wakes up. DD seems to be back at baseline, has been firm with GS but more patient and positive.

Here's what I have:

DEAR (Man)

Describe: We've come a long way since you moved in last year. You have found ways to practice self-care with your gardening and crystals, you are yelling less frequently, looking for ways to help GS with his behavior by buying the poster board and shapes. I have gotten better at hearing you out when you are talking about a problem and I'm working hard to back up your parenting. GS is responding well when you are being firm and encouraging him to do his best. We learn together through our mistakes. When things aren’t working, we try a different approach. A problem has arisen that I wanted to talk to you about.

Express: A few times in the last week or so, GS has told me that you punch him when he's bad. This makes me worried for his safety.

Assert: I'd like to talk to you about more positive ways to discipline GS so that he feels safe here.
 
Reassert:  It's important that we solve this so we don't run the risk of him being taken from us.

Pause...wait for her to come back.

Repeat assertion: I know how challenging it is to parent a strong-willed child and want to work together with you on a solution.

~ OH

I stuck mostly to the script and it went much better than I thought it would. She denied punching him, hitting him, spanking him, or kicking him, and says she doesn't know where he's getting that from, that he has also told her that her BF punches him, which she knows isn't true. Incidentally, this morning I asked GS to come closer so I could help him get his wet t-shirt off after he spent time in the kiddie pool. He said, "I don't want to, I'm afraid you'll punch me."

I recorded our conversation and I'll bring it here when I've had some time to transcribe it (nearly 30 minutes). The highlights are:

She thanked me for not attacking her, talking to her about it calmly. I did the same.

She's concerned about GS saying she punches him and when I asked why she thinks he's saying it, offered that he might not feel safe and was insightful about why.

She shared her idea with the poster board and shapes and we've set a time to talk about it together (DD, DD's BF, and me) on Sunday after family dinner. We also committed to having "GS check-ins" every other Sunday after family dinner so we can all be on the same page.

I remembered to validate her, "I know GS is a challenge, he pushes the boundaries, etc."

We agreed 1-2-3 isn't working anymore.

She was receptive when I suggested we talk to GS in terms of what we WANT him to do rather than what we DON'T WANT him to do. For example: "Please use your walking feet" is better than, "Stop running!" and "Please stay in the house while I water the plants" is better than, "If you come outside while I'm watering the plants, you'll be on take-five."

~ OH

Oh wow, OH. That was a GREAT conversation! You and your daughter both handled it like champs. I think maybe you are making more progress than you realize. Hang in there. It does get better.

OH

It’s brought a tear to me eye and joy  

What a relief you must feel and, as you’ve already said, some gratitude to one another. You all rely on one another and accept everybody is doing their best but maybe could try a little harder by being flexible and on the same page.

Wow. Just Wow.

LP

Brilliant OH, you did just brilliant! I'm so happy for you. Back on the same page, step forward, every time this happens you'll get stronger and stronger. Dashing to work, back later. Whoopee 

WDx

thats really great to read!

Hi Oh!

I don't use the word brilliant very often but I think your talk with her was brilliant and I am thrilled it went so well.  Excellent. 

 

Hi Only Human   
This is great news! You handled it so well!

Pretty big deal! She did not deny it, and was able to be in problem-solving mode.

You helped that moment happen, OH. 

Awesome work, OH.   

Thank you all, I feel pretty good about our talk except that I didn't do much talking at all. DD talks a mile a minute and doesn't leave space for getting a word in edgewise so it was a lot of me just looking at her and nodding and saying, "uh huh," a lot. I'm glad I recorded it, I can hardly keep up with what she's saying and I realize, even just listening to it afterward, that I get anxious listening to her sometimes. And distracted, bored even, she just has so much to say and it's overwhelming. I also noticed that my "solve it" stuff surfaces often. I also notice that I sound less confident, I say "um," and I pause a lot in the middle of a sentence.

Anyway, I began this post two hours ago so I'll sign off for now.

Thank you all for your encouragement.

~ OH

OH,

I'm so glad that the talk w/ your DD went so well. I'm been thinking about you guys.

You might check with local agencies in your community that work alongside the school district to get GS the help that he deserves & needs.

 
Stampingt1

Hi.  I have been thinking of all of you and wondering how things are.  Mostly I am wondering how you are handling the stress and anxiety.  Update when you can please.   

Thanks, Harri.

Things have been calmer around here since last week at this time. We had our Post Family-Dinner Talk on Sunday and it went well, though I found myself putting on my "advisor" hat when I should have been reaching for my "listener/validator" hat. I am a work in progress! I shared my concern that GS shows signs of ODD and both DD and her BF were interested in learning more. We looked at a web site with "tips," and one of them was, "Keep your emotions in check. If a child with ODD senses your anger, s/he will respond ten-fold," or something like that. I've noticed DD is working hard to keep her anger in check.

We agreed that this, below, is what we are working on presently. We are using positive reinforcement and praise. DD shared that when she gives GS positive reinforcement and/or praise, he will respond with an aggressive act. I suggested she power through, do it anyway, and send him on take-five when he responds aggressively. We talked about the importance of being consistent and agreed we all could be better at that.

In two or fewer requests, we'd like GS to:

Take-five (recently he's been running away, throwing things, screaming, hitting, kicking)

Clean up after himself (DD shared that she asks him nicely several times then gets fed up and starts screaming at him.)

Get ready to go. Dressed, shoes on, bathroom.

Begin wind-down (lately, just the mention of "wind-down" brings aggression and defiance.)

Stop yelling ("Please remember your inside voice.")

Stop running in the house ("Please remember your walking feet.")

GS is less defiant as DD is calmer. I have heard her yell at him only a handful of times and she refrained from the verbal abuse I've heard in the past. She didn't cuss him out, didn't call him names.

Do I believe DD is punching GS on top of his head? I don't know. He's almost five, so not the best judge of time. I believe she was punching him on top of the head last year when GS first told me that she was. I also believe it's possible that he's referring to that time when he talks about it.

As for the bruises on his shins; sadly, I think he might be doing that to himself. As he was trying to settle down for bedtime tonight, he got frustrated and punched himself in the legs a bunch of times. I distracted him, rather than address it, because I didn't know what to say.

As Turkish told me last year, a light has been shone on the problem (or something more eloquent than that!) and it's "out there."

When I got home after work tonight, DD was on the couch crying on the phone and GS was in his room, watching his tablet. GS told me, "Mommy's having a hard day," and DD shouted, "Don't I always have a hard day?" I didn't respond and she dropped it. GS and I went into my room and he played games on my computer. DD continued her phone conversation, alternately crying and raising her voice angrily, and I asked if I could put GS to bed. Wednesday evenings used to be Memaw and GS time but my work schedule makes it more difficult so we've dropped it for the most part. I do enjoy reading stories and tucking him in. DD responded, "Yes, thank you."

Our lawn guy comes on Thursdays and, after GS was in bed, DD and I set about moving things out of the way - a huge climbing dome, a large kiddie pool that had to be emptied and scrubbed, her many potted plants, various toys. She had returned to baseline.

Holy cow, I had a lot to say! As for my stress and anxiety, I, too, have returned to baseline

Thanks again for asking, Harri.

~ OH

Hi OH!

There is so much good news in your update, along with some realistic thinking too.   

I like your plan to provide positive reinforcement and consistency and I think it is great that your daughter is trying so hard.

Do you think that she will continue to be open to discussions regarding how this is going?

I am thrilled to read that you too have returned to baseline OH!