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From the article on the Karpman Drama Triangle (https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle): “It may be very hard to relinquish the false hope that the other person will someday step permanently into the role of a responsible and giving adult, partner, or parent. We have to face our own outdated fantasies, feelings and beliefs and let them go before we can stop fixing, rescuing and caretaking the other person.

We have been the caretaker as a way to keep the peace, keep the delusion, keep the fantasy, keep the family together, keep the other person calm. But perhaps it's time to face the fact that none of our caretaking methods have worked for more than a few minutes or a few days.”

If you feel you have successfully relinquished that false hope, what helped you do that?  

On the one hand, I can see so clearly that it is false, just my own fantasy. At the same time, here I am,  more than a decade of misery and struggle with ubpdH (correct acronym for undiagnosed bpd husband?), feeling that leaving is best for at least myself and probably all three of us (12 yo son), but still here.

Partly because deep down that fantasy persists. And I think less of myself for holding onto it, and sad/angry that he’s not magically changing into a responsible adult/partner/parent. My false hope is damaging to me, unfair to him, and delaying a much-needed divorce. Yet...with all that objective understanding, I haven’t yet been able to let go of it (despite therapy, self-reflection, journaling, etc), and get on a path of real hope. If you have an experience or insight to share, please do, I’d love to hear them!

Not sure if this helps or not.  Be thankful you have an idea of what is going on with your husband.  It at least gives you insight into his mind and thinking, even though you can never truly get inside his troubled soul.  I have experienced 39 years of marriage and have just come to the conclusion that my husband has bpd, whether it is full blown or just symptoms of it.

The good thing for me is that it explains to me a lifetime of unhappiness in marriage.  It is somewhat encouraging in that I now know that my anxiety and stress  have an explanation for what has gone on.  I no longer feel responsible for his stuff, for fixing him, or even needing to be available for his crazy. 

I have come to the conclusion that in my marriage and family, I have played a very codependent role. This is requiring work on my part in order to get healthy for myself.  I would share with you that our family has been extremely hurt by the dysfunction.  In hindsight, I wish I had divorced decades ago.

I have stayed and continue to stay because of children and now grandchildren.  I filed for divorce last fall and then gave up the divorce.  Has this made things better in our marriage and our family?  Absolutely not.  But at least I now am feeling like I have a voice, that I have a right to joy and happiness.

The trick for me is actually continuing to pursue those things. We all have reasons for staying and I would say to you, find your reasons.  Stay for you.  If you stay, find  a way to stay well.  That will more than likely require you to give up the hope or fantasy of a happy existence within marriage.  Or perhaps at least find some realistic expectations. 

Like many here, my relationship began as one of those "too good to be true" romantic adventures. I expected that things would cool down, but I never expected the crazy to show up. This man seemed well-adjusted, a successful professional, a bit neurotic about some things, but hey, we've all got baggage and this wasn't my first rodeo.

It took a few years before BPD became my partner, instead of the kind, thoughtful man I married. I found myself profoundly disappointed and intensely angry. I felt duped.

My initial strategy, before I learned what I now know about BPD, was to confront it head on. I tend to be forthright and as a "Thinker" rather than a "Feeler" I can be a bit tactless.

As you would expect, my communication strategy did not go well. It surprised me because I'm usually able to talk my way through difficult issues, perhaps in not the most gracious manner, but I'd inevitably get to a point of agreement or resolution. Instead, my desire to talk things through elicited some of the most crazy behavior I've ever witnessed. (He would hit himself in the head and say, "This is what you want. You like this. You hate me.")

I was previously married to a man with an undiagnosed personality disorder, or many of them. Now I believe in addition to BPD he was sociopathic. The brief list of behaviors I endured in that marriage: serial infidelity, drug abuse, financial irresponsibility, physical, verbal and emotional violence. But I'd never seen him hit himself in the head.

Needless to say, I was quite distraught. I loved this man and then he disappeared and this absolutely weird person showed up, with whom I couldn't communicate. At first, I thought it was due to alcohol abuse, but that still didn't explain why he'd behave so oddly and I couldn't reason with him even when he was stone cold sober. And he's a lawyer. I assumed that rational arguments would be heard and discussed calmly.

So that was a long-winded overview. Now to how I got to radical acceptance.

I don't know that I did that much caretaking. I certainly did that in my first marriage. But this time around, I was really pissed off. I did try not to set him off further, but all my previous understanding of human nature was useless when he began getting dysregulated. I insisted that we do couples counseling and I found a psychologist who seemed to be quite experienced. In the year plus that we saw her, not much happened, other than a slight improvement in our ability to talk with each other. He thought that she and I were "ganging up" on him and that the therapy sessions were my way of "attacking" him.

Things continued on as they'd been, other than there were fewer head-hitting incidents, but things weren't good. I found this site and was amazed at how others' experiences were similar to my own and began learning the tools. I also started individual therapy sessions with the same psychologist to see how I could better manage things in my relationship. At that time, she told me that he has a personality disorder.

Facing the fact that once again I had married someone who is very emotionally damaged left me feeling like I couldn't trust my own ability to judge character and I felt a tremendous grief that the man I married would never be the person I thought he was.

Learning the tools here and applying them was like learning an entirely different language. Some of the tools I tried didn't work because I either used them in a very clunky way or that due to his acuity with language, he noticed the patterns. However some tools, like validation and most importantly, avoiding invalidation, work splendidly.

It took some time for him to "trust me" again. I'd been too forthright and through my candor, he felt brutalized. (And I was thinking, "Hey you're a lawyer." But it's different hearing the unvarnished truth from a loved one, rather than dealing with confrontations in a professional setting.)

But I persevered and changed the way I spoke to him and over time, things started getting better. During this time, I was able to be candid with my friends. It felt weird not to be able to be "me" with my husband. But as I practiced the skills I learned here, a shift began to happen. I started to be more validating with my friends and acquaintances too. All my communications with people became more positive, more fulfilling. I became more aware of the "room temperature" and able to assess other people's moods and adjusted my communication accordingly.

Now I don't feel that I'm much different in the way I relate to my husband than with other people. I'm very aware of when he begins to get upset about things, and it usually has nothing to do with me anymore. And when he's like that, I'm much more aware of what I say and usually I'll choose to give him space to work it out on his own.

Is it what I'd hoped a marriage would be? No. But there's a lot of good there and I choose to focus upon that. It took me quite a while to get over the disappointment that he wasn't my knight in shining armor, but he does bring much good to my life. And I appreciate that.

Thank you Lonely38, for your generous reply.

It was certainly a relief when I learned about bpd, and understood why he had been acting in a way that was completely baffling. Then, as I learned more through reading and experience, it was terribly discouraging to realize he’s not going to change. (A couple notes on that statement: although I know that intellectually, I guess my heart hasn’t fully absorbed it, since I find myself still reasoning with him with logic and wishing for competent rationality and emotional maturity—as if he’ll just snap out of it. Also, I’m not saying he couldn’t change;I have no idea if that would be possible to any degree. But we live in a small town without any therapists knowledgeable about bpd, and besides, he’s not willing to try (I’m the one with the mental health problem; his only problem is that I don’t live him enough.)

Yes, I certainly play a very codependent role. Oldest child of an alcoholic father and enabling/codependent and very smart, dedicated, professional mother...yup. Pretty much recreated it, which horrifies me.  I’ve found lots of good resources on codependency and have worked with therapists on that. Helps me; so far hasn’t helped the relationship.

I stay mostly for our son (12).  Maybe a little because I still harbor the fantasy of who I thought he was and what our marriage would be, but it’s really for our son. I want to be here to buffer, to soothe, to give him mental health first aid when my husband is dysregulated and critical, blaming, or burdening. It breaks my heart that he makes our son feel responsible for dad’s happiness, and that’s an impossible goal. And I stay because I want our son to have good experiences with his dad, and I’m afraid they'll be fewer if we separate, because my husband won’t be stable and positive. So I prop him up and enable, clearly.

I should say my husband is a wonderful guy. He tried hard to be a good father, and to make me happy. (Drives me nuts, because in my opinion, it’s not really to make me happy, it’s to feel good himself/bolster his identity that he’s someone who is always giving to others. But it’s entirely transactional, and if others aren’t tangibly grateful, they’re treating him badly.).

We’ve reached such a sad state of not accepting each other: he doesn’t feel loved (bpd) and believes I’m withholding and choosing not to love him. I want him to be someone I can trust with my emotions, have a challenging conversation with, and be an emotionally mature and rational parent and partner. It’s pretty exhausting to not be accepted for who you are.

To be fair, I don’t love him the way he wants to be loved, and the way I want to, any more. So many episodes of verbal aggression that to me is utter disrespect, enough episodes of infrequent physical aggression that shave mostly been mild but last year one was enough for me to move out for 6 months. So many episodes of angry interactions with our son, because he’ feels invalidated by a 12 year old’s normal shininess when asked to do chores...  I don’t trust him emotionally, I have felt fear if him physically, I have been too often disappointed in him as a parent. Maybe I have an unrealistically high bar, a Hollywood fantasy if live. But I want my love to include admiration and trust. What I’ve got for him is guilt and obligation (see: codependent).  

So, I think it’s almost certainly foolish to stay for our son. It’s possible that if I remove the pain stimulus—me—from his daily life, my husband might eventually be more stable and a better father. It’s possible that even though I wouldn’t be there to buffer/control all the time, spending half his time away from bpd entirely might be good for our son. And we’re certainly doing him no good with this example of an unhappy marriage. So why do I feel panicked when I actually start to take steps to leave?  I think it is 1) fest for my son, and 3) admitting that I failed to “rescue” my husband.

And I am sad for him—when he thinks I’m going to move out he panics, gets full-body tremors, vomits, sweats, dilated pupils, talks to himself, cries, smacks his own head, can’t sleep...I will say that the analogy in one of the bpd books I read, that the fear of losing your attachment person is like being a two-year old in Times Square on New Year's Eve and you’ve lost hold of your mom’s hand and gotten separated, didn’t help me at all. How could I do that to him?  It makes me tear up just typing that sentence. I guess that’s the rescuer in me, and I still haven’t learned how not to feel awful about abandoning the emotional two year old I married.

CatFamiliar, thank you!  That was like looking in a mirror. I’d love to reply more but will do so later!

I did this by diligently figuring out where "Real Hope" was...or more particularly the pathway to "better".  As part of this, understanding what pathways almost always led to "worse" and avoiding those. (even if I really liked some things down that pathway)

For me...the first time I used a "boundary" and took back control of my phone/privacy was the first time in a long time that I found hope.

Senior members here had coached me on how to implement and communicate the boundary AND to EXPECT the "extinction burst" AND to expect it to "burst" and burn out.

Well...it played out almost exactly as I had been coached to expect!

That's when I believed the "tools" on this site and taught by Ts would work. 

Goodness...that was 2013/14 somewhere.  My life is so much better now.  So much calmer.



Those two words are critical. 

Not just any change, but change that has been thoughtfully evaluated to "most likely" lead to a healthier relationship (whether or not your partner wants to come along)

That's the key...if you (we the nons) change, it's next to impossible for the pwBPD to "stay exactly the same".

Certainly not an exact science that can be used to get precise behaviors changed in your partner. 

However..it's a way to get "better" results...even if things are still a bit dysfunctional

EXAMPLE:

Look back a few days in my posts.  My wife packed up, told the kids she was leaving with them, told me I was expected to pay for it...and that sucked..bigtime.

So...what did I do?  I posted here and opened my heart and my mind.  Others that have walked similar paths and know me nudged and thumped me in the head so I could quickly evaluate the perspective I was approaching this issue from.

Generally speaking I needed to listen more, be more flexible...deal with my wife emotionally vice rationally.

Well...what was the result?

My wife just left this morning on the trip (yes she stayed).  We had a wonderful Father's day breakfast at my favorite breakfast place!   

Had I tried to do this "all on my own"...it would likely have been disastrous.

There really is hope out there...we can help you find it!  What do you think?

Best,

FF

CatFamiliar - first, wow...I'd never imagined anyone hitting themselves in the head until I saw my husband do it.  When he's in extreme emotional pain, usually accompanied by "I'm so stupid, why did I do that?" 

I have a hard time imagining he'll trust me again because of the things he holds onto that either I said, once, or he thinks I said (for example: he thinks I said I would never want to have sex with him again.  I'm pretty careful with absolute words like "never", and probably said "I can't imagine ever wanting to have sex with you again", or "I haven't wanted to in recent years and haven't felt any change so why would I expect it in the future?"  Splitting hairs, and not productive.  But he pushes and pushes and pushes the miserable conversations, and I'm tired of not being honest.  So, I said what I felt.  And it's all he heard, and hears, no matter what I say now.  Extremely hypocritical in my opinion, since he thinks I should overlook some of the things he's said and done to me.  But...the point is, so far all I've seen is an erosion of his trust.  And I would say there was a decade of poisoning and then a final bombing of mine, and I don't see that coming back, either.

It sounds like you made a change that was positive for you in several ways.  I wish I could be candid with friends about my bpd-related challenges.  My husband is a teacher at the only school in town, and my friends all have school-age kids.  The stigma of mental health in general is bad enough, and throw a "pd" in there that nobody knows about except maybe hyperbole and drama...I don't feel I can share with friends because it would be information about him that he doesn't agree with in the first place, and wouldn't want public.

I like your closing, that there's good there to.  I'm not finding any, and I am moving glacially toward thinking that I am not doing our son any favors by staying. 

Thanks FF, and happy Father's Day to you! 

On boundaries - every time I try to set and especially to stick with one, he thinks I'm punishing him and playing games.  I have not observed this to have any positive benefit for the relationship.  For me, yes.  For our interactions, and how he feels about me, no.

On extinction bursts...so far I've never observed any extinction, just bursts.  Sometimes they just run out of energy and go dormant until the next dysregulated moment (daily), but they repeat.  I am wondering how long it takes. 

I've been at this with him for over 13 years now (that's when the real crazy started; we've been together for 20 and there were obvious signs from the start, in hindsight).  I've done an awful lot of my own work in therapy, with resources on this site, other books, etc.  I will say that well before my relationship with him, I have done a lot of personal emotional development and mindful interaction work, and I have had positive, respectful, intimate, fulfilling interactions with friends and family and previous boyfriends.  And I've learned more.  I've changed how I interact with him to be more validating and less invalidating.  And at the same time, I feel done and hopeless.  All I've seen is a downward trend over time, despite my efforts.  I feel like I've used up my lifetime supply of patience and resilience and understanding and accommodating.  I'm angry, bitter, undermined my own self-esteem (how could I have chosen him?  how could I have stayed?  what deluded fool "stays for the kids"?), and all I've seen happen is it get worse, to the point of a physical attack last year, after which I moved out for 6 months. 

So, I don't feel like I have any more to give.  I don't want to.  I want out.  But I am terrified of the consequences for our son, for me (that I'll be just as unhappy or more from guilt and seeing our son hurt), and for him (suicidal thoughts and mentions, along with just plain old tobacco and alcohol and marijuana).  I know I can't rescue him...but dammit, it is my job to rescue my son.  How can I take him away from his dad?  But how can I trust his emotional health with a father who tells him "I love you so much I'd slit my wrists for you?"

And in addition to that, I do have a hard time of letting go of the fantasy of who I thought I married.  He's like that with other people, but not me any more.  I'm sad. 

I have a plan for leaving, but I think I'll post that separately, and ask for feedback on what other readers here think of it. 

cheers,
Apples   

I have two examples --

1)  My former fiance, who I thought was alcoholic (and yes, he was), turns out in retrospect to be NPD/BPD. He was controlling, emotionally, and in The end, physically abusive. I broke the engagement but continued to see him (big mistake). He called me at 4 AM one morning, wanting me to bail him out on a DUO charge. I had repeatedly warned him of this type of charge. I had an 8-year-old child at the house, plus I was starting a significant contract job with a large, international corporation at 8:30 AM that morning. I said no. I never spoke another word to him.

2) My now husband was married to a uNPD/BPD. He struggled for years through her constant infidrlities. When he was leaving for a four month assignment at a prestigious Army officer school, he said they had the worst sex of their marriage -- it was obvious she wasn't engaged. When he returned four months later, he walked in the door to be exuberant greeted by the children, only to have his wife not even interrupt her phone conversation with her current boyfriend. That was the end of the marriage for him.

Everyone has their own breaking point. It is really an internal measure. You have to find it within yourself.

If you would like to work through and example or two..I'd be happy to focus on your boundary efforts.  They are my #1 tool!

I would suggest them as #1 tool for anyone in r/s with pwBPD...because that's how you "enable" your own self care..which is a pathway to hope.

Even if you want to leave him, I would suggest boundaries are important because of the continued relationship based on your family.

OH..and as far as attitude.  Don't worry about what he thinks when you are doing boundaries.

Perhaps he thinks you are a two horned pink unicorn...if the boundary protects you.  Great! 


I would suspect 1 of two things.  Either you are not being consistent about your boundaries or you have seen an extinction burst but didn't know it at the time.


 FF

Several of the most recent threads have been very helpful to me as we all seem to share so much in common.  Boundaries were mentioned.  I am working on those but would love tips for anyone who has successfully used them.

And it is somewhat encouraging to know we are all working toward similar goals, that is to find a place of health for ourselves.

I'll try to start a new "boundaries" thread later today.

In the meantime, please check out this article.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

If you google bpdfamily and boundaries you can likely find many more articles.

Here is the "FF challenge question".  What is the difference in a "boundary" and a "rule"?

Hmmmm?

Best,

FF

I want to pile on to Form Flier.  When I have been successful with establishing and enforcing a clear boundary I have found a level of peace in our home.  The boundary failures are usually my poor/inconsistent enforcement of them.  They take forethought and many times an iron will in the face of a relationship with a BPD (they attack both the boundary and you personally for needing it).  I started with taking control back (the cell phone was my first success).  It has brought a level of stability that created "breathing room" for me and my exhausted emotional state.  Even so it takes time to recover from long term abuse from a BPD.  Patience!

I am understanding that lots of practice at healthy boundaries will take time for me to get it right.  I used to be all about rules.  I want to be sure I am no longer using this tactic as it never worked for anyone including me. 

The tricky part for me is remembering during the moment how to handle a trigger.  I have gotten to used to acting subconsciously.  So it takes a lot of mental energy to be able to change that pattern.  I will look up the thread on boundaries.  I believe I have been there before, but clearly, I need all the tips and tools I can get!

I have had/have many dysfunctional relationships with family members, friends, and partners with BPD. I would say that continuing to work on strengthening my inner sense of self through long term psychotherapy, reading self help books, doing all kinds of mind body work that involve moving the frozen parts of my body to help those parts with buried feelings come alive, daily meditation, participating on this site, choosing to surround myself with better people, and many other things are helping/have helped me to let go of false hope. It is really hard when we are still involved in relationships with people with BPD because they are so manipulative and we can not count on either their good or bad behaviors to stay the same. All we can control is how we respond to the behaviors of the person with BPD, and it just feels so sad to see that there is really no hope for this person to ever change. Coming from a family with a mother with BPD and siblings with BPD, I still find myself attracted to men with BPD, though no longer interested in going out with them. The next stage for me is not to be attracted to these type of men and not wanting to rescue them. I believe that when we have a history of having people in our life with BPD, it is a life long journey to stay safe and surround ourselves with the right people and to stop enabling those we cannot possibly help. Thank you for asking such a great question!  

Lonely38,
Triggers are tough.  I have had my ups and downs.  I found two things that have helped. 
1.  Calming the Emotional Storm.  This book helped me to understand my triggers in the context of my BPDw.  It took alot of work! The biggest one was acknowledging that I needed to step back when I felt myself being triggered.  I am a red headed Irish guy so it is hard not to jump in and react.  I now break contact when my BPDw is trying to trigger me and it begins having an effect.  I now can go for multiple attacks before I need a break because I recognize the situation for what it is.    I have to say though that an unintended consequence of my BPDw not getting a reaction has become that she raises her level of viciousness to get a response.  She would make a Marine blush...

2.  I had a therapist do some cognitive behavior therapy on what triggers me.  I literally made flash cards on my lunch hours at work and dug into what my triggers are and how I could control them.  Now that I know them I can better control my reactions to them.

At the end of it all it comes down to the self control to not let yourself be drawn into the madness of the BPD.  That in itself may escalate the BPD, but it keeps you observing from the outside as opposed to being in the tornado!

B
 

My experience as well!

Consistency is critical?

I wonder why?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61921.10

Best,

FF

I love the replies here,  all good information and help.  This definitely is a process once someone actually knows what they are dealing with.  I am finding it easier to be kinder to my bpd husband even when he using FOG on me.  I remove myself at the time of the FOG, then I re-engage afterward with no revenge, distance, etc.  With me talking respectfully to him, I am witnessing he at least is doing better with the way he communicates with me.

We have had such high marital discord in the last year, including me filing for divorce in the fall, then changing plans and trying to stay married as of January of 2019.  With all that happened last year, we have experienced lots of trauma, including relationship with friends.

I don't know if this is a boundary or not---my bpd husband has been pretty much saying no to anything socially with our friends.  Last week I texted him that I wanted to invite some friends over.  I told him who I wanted to invite over and asked him about it.  His reply was to add another couple to the invite---I know he wanted to invite them for some kind of buffer.  Anyway, I invited all 3 couples today.  2 of the couples can come, but the 3rd couple (my husband's choice) cannot make it.  I texted him all of this info today and asked if he wanted to include anyone else.  No response.  When I got home, he asked about the invite.  His remark was that it would be uncomfortable for him to have one couple over because of his perceived idea of how they might feel about him.  I simply replied to him that I had texted him this past week and to look at his text.  He checked it.  Thankfully there were no other words exchanged on the topic.

I have found myself willing to step forward in faith with the next move toward health, trying to include him as best I can.  He is like a little hurt puppy.  However, when I trust myself to act with respect and then move forward, it seems he responds in like. 

The good news is that we are actually have people over this coming weekend, which is long overdue for both of us.  I am so grateful for this site and the ability to interact with others who are suffering similar circumstances, who offer advice without judgement and who really seem to care.

 
Dear Cat,

First, I am sending a "hug" because even though each person on  bpdfamily has a uniquely personal story, there are definite similarities in our experiences.

You wrote:  "So, I think it’s almost certainly foolish to stay for our son. It’s possible that if I remove the pain stimulus—me—from his daily life, my husband might eventually be more stable and a better father."

I believe the research/literature on BPD bears out your statement that (at least part of) the "pain stimulus" is YOU.  BPD is a pattern of behavior/thought/feeling that plays out WITHIN a relationship, particularly with those who are the closest.  So, we ourselves, are TRIGGERS for our loved ones with BPD.  This was a very hard reality for me to accept.  It doesn't matter how loving and caring you might try to be, the dynamics of being in a close relationship will probably always trigger him.

Ummmm...I need to go back and read this all in context (will try later today).

However I would say that say "we" are the trigger is devoid of hope.  Since "we" can change that fact that we exist.

Wouldn't it be better to say that the trigger is the "role" we play in the relationship?  Because if we change our role, the relationship will change (although we can't control "precisely" how that change will play out)

I 100% agree that BPD is something that "primarily" plays out "inside" a relationship, especially for high functioning people (such as my wife).

I think most people would be shocked that the "top notch" teach they know believed I was a polygamist and had a love child baby with a different lady (I was a busy guy years ago...  )

Anyway...I certainly want to give Cat a chance to clarify and I need to go back later and read all in context.

Best,

FF

I appreciate the hug. Here’s one back at you.   But that wasn’t me. I don’t have a son.

Cat,
I had not read that about the non BPD being the trigger but I understand how that can be reasoned.  I have found that those that my high functioning BPDw believes have wronged her are triggers depending on how stressed she is.  I could be that trigger, one of our children, her parents, the list grows each day...  So much is dependent on the situation also.  I believe there is a context to the outbursts that shape them.  Since I am closest to her I receive the brunt, but may not be the trigger.  EG: at Christmas the children could be the trigger (how they don't respect her and all she has sacrificed/given them) but I receive the brunt of it and the laundry list of my many wrongs come out (real and unreal)...I guess in the end I don't see my leaving ending the cycle.  I would only be replaced by someone/something else. 
Like FF I will go back and look.  And Cat thanks for all the thoughtful feedback you give.  I for one greatly appreciate it.
B

Could it be that the trigger in the bpd relationships we experience is that they are trying to engage with a healthy human being (or at least one who is trying to maintain a healthy mental and emotional state, and who has the knowledge of how to do this?) When they see they are dealing with a healthy individual, this is somehow threatening to them and they use the resources they have to try and pull the other person to their level?

I have experienced some of this with my bpd husband.  He feels jealous of me or uncertain around me when he sees I am practicing  healthy boundaries,  or perhaps where I understand how to converse with others, etc.  He seems to want to throw a grenade in the situation that will perhaps soothe him in a way that seems very foreign to me.

Anyone have a thought on this?

I believe they are usually "fine" with healthy people. 

What I typically see is that a person "gives in" to the whims of a pwBPD and then next time "gives in" some more.  After a while the pwBPD stops respecting a person because that person lets them walk all over them.

Compare that to someone with healthy boundaries.  A pwBPD doesn't go off the rails with them because there is a healthy "leader" that keeps things in check.

Remember...it's not like they "plan" to dysregulate.

Best,

FF

I'm not so sure. My h has cut off relationship with folks who are healthy and were holding boundaries, especially after they told him about the boundary and the reasons behind it. He was really not "fine" when the healthy people around him talked about and then enforced consequences for unhealthy behavior of others. Since I continued to hold to my boundaries, h was reminded of his behaviors and eventually dysregulated.

Underneath all of that, my h believes that boundaries are punitive and that there "should not" be boundaries between him and the people whom he loves. His inner world also feels normal to him, so it's very difficult for him to change fundamentally.

For me, accepting the fact that my h has a personality disorder that is highly unlikely to change helped me give up the false hope.

I suppose I should have expanded on my thoughts/explanation of "fine".

Has he publicly dysregulated with "boundaried" people? 

Do they know why space has come between them?

I would generally say the more high functioning a person the more "private" BPD is?  The more low function a pwBPD is the harder it is to "hide" the impacts of BPD.

Best,

FF

My husband is definitely a high functioning bpd.  He was successful in his line of work.  He has a persona of being a good guy, kind and caring.  He does have that side to him as I have witnessed kind and caring from him.  However, he is so awkward in public and has told me many times through the years how tough social situations are for him.  He wants me to be the person that helps him through these situations. 

I did ask him yesterday if he would repeat the words he uses on me with a neighbor or our children.  He said no.  I said those words would not be ok with a neighbor or our children and they are not ok with me.

I believe at this point that a lot of friends we have had over the years are getting the idea of who he is.  I have been told by more than person that he is a fake and not to be believed.  This makes me sad for him but certainly not responsible for him. 

I feel I am hanging out with a toddler these days.  Someone who does not understand responsibility for their own behavior, who is not willing or interested in change and who can point the finger better than anyone I know.  This is my sign to quit the trying and start the honoring myself.

I have experienced a little of both. My BPDw is definitely high functioning. She is the model person in her public persona and with her few friends (although when a friend fails to meet her expectations or challenge her actions they are jettisoned).  But to her family she has increasingly dis-regulated over time.  I was the focus for years but her family and mine have gotten it equally in the last 10 years.  Every boundary is an assault on her.  Every time she is not the center of attention she is being isolated and attacked.  As our children have aged they too have become the target of her dis regulation.  It has reached the point that there have now been public explosions have begun to happen when her expectations are not met...That is what I am struggling with now.  She will explode in very public places,...but they are directed at the children and I and not around her friends.   

I have wondered how much we as the non BPD reinforce this cycle with codependent behaviors. Especially those trying to avoid an emotional explosion.  I know that I do!  I am working on that as well.  Too often I have avoided my needs for fear they would cause an outburst that I did not have the emotional fortitude to deal with a potential explosion from my BPDw. ...

B 

I have also experienced how family members with BPD can be so charming and likable when in the presence of people from outside the family. Some people though really do see right through the false charm and fear of intimacy right from the start, which is something I am working on being better at along with letting go of false hope. I see a lot of BPD behaviors in my family members that reflect their fear of intimacy, fears of being seen and found out if they spend too much time around someone. It is common for my family members with BPD to be artificially charming around people outside the family and then when the person leaves to say horrible things about this person that have no basis in reality or are grossly exaggerated if somewhat true. It seems we are talking about different levels of BPD. The high functioning person with BPD can do well in the outside world with a charming veneer while they mistreat those closest to them and privately malign nearly everybody. The more dysfunctional the person with BPD the more dysregulated he/she is in the world outside the family.

I'm trying to become aware of just what exactly it is that sets off the  red-flag red-flag with others who have superb BPDradar. I'm thinking it has something to do with pacing. With pwBPD who are very charming, there's often a sense of too much intimacy, too much disclosure, too many compliments, all way over the top, all too soon for the level of relationship that is developed.

I think there is some truth to that.  My bpd husband says things to others that are out of proportion with the current environment or topic.  He can charm the pants off the waitress and then sitting across the table with me be his rude self.  He wants and needs to be liked but has no awareness of what a healthy person does that gives them true relationship.

I have noticed since retirement my husband is on linkedin a lot.  I am guessing he needs some kind of social outlet that is not too close.  He has even offered on linked in to help people get jobs?  Yes, he has talent in this area, but he does this to get a pat on the back or some kind of appreciation. 

Also, my husband has fewer and fewer real friends these days.  So he is texting people from high school and college that he never sees.  He has always been fixated on staying in touch with high school friends, especially, which seems odd to me.  He reaches out to them.  They do not reach out to him.

It is a false sense of self, an act of desperation for some kind of relationship.

Cat,
 
My BPDw has self esteem/abandonment issues and to counter that in the last year following an outburst in the good times there is an over the top level of compliments and drive for intimacy with the children and I.  I am struggling to deal with it because is so unreal/fake/forced. 

Its funny she absolutely tears me apart one minute and then smothers me the next.

B

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