BPDFamily.com

Summary:

1. We've been married about 3 years
2. She has been in therapy all her life. She started DBT beginning of 2018. Stopped around October 2018.
3. I've been in therapy since beginning of 2018. I'm codependent. I took ro-dbt for 4 months later in the year ontop of regular therapy. Didn't finish, was too expensive.
4. Domestic violence in August 2018. I called the police on her and she went to jail for a few days. She bit me in January. Her tantrums are very childlike and primitive. Her DBT therapist had some interesting thoughts on that... I did not call the police in January because I did not want a loved one to go to prison. I had already made that decision before it happened and discussed it with my therapist and friend. Criminal justice system does not help anyone. She went to stay with a friend for a bit when that happened instead.
6. I go on medical leave from my job in January to April. I was "let go" upon my return.
7. February we go on vacation for a week. I tell her we can't live like this anymore because it's not sustainable for me and because now I am starting to think vile things towards her. I tell her we have to live apart, we decide she should move out
8. We see each other sporadically from March to May. It was kind of like a therapeutic separation without us being clear on goals. It was mostly good as we weren't around each other 24/7. Self improvement for both of us was difficult during this time because we were in limbo because the goals weren't clear.
9. During this space apart I grow more detached from the relationship, realize the issues I contributed to. Forgive her for her issues. We start talking about how to re-integrate into each others lives. Her parents visited her right before she went back down a dark path. I see where she gets her behaviors from. She broke down saying she doesn't want to be like them and realizes she does the same things. Her parents are pretty awful. The dark path is painting me black to herself. Starts saying I don't love her. I'm never there for her, etc. This goes on for a while trying to bait me into something to which I just walked out of the restaurant and told her I don't want to talk with her while she's like this. She finally baited me in the car ride back. She mentioned how she wanted to kill herself in a very self-pitying way, so I told her in a way to try to "snap her out of it" that maybe she should kill herself then. I regretted the way it came out, my intentions were good but the situation was stressful. She got what she wanted, the justification to leave me for good and overnight May 1st moves 12 hours away to live with her other parents overnight. She keeps up with the same act and says she wants a divorce. She visits a week later because she has to go to probation in our state. That visit kind of made me  want to move on more because she was acting nasty. She calls me after a couple weeks, starts the same cycle of moving out then acting like things are normal, telling me about her day so I tell her i'm ready to move-on, on May 15th. I didn't want to play this game with her for the 4th time (she's moved out before, this last separation has been the longest for 3 months while still being in same state) and it was tarting to get in the way of me growing as an individual during our separation. We say our goodbyes gracefully and go no contact.
10. Turns out she cheated on me when she first moved out in February and then again right before she came to visit for probation. Seems like she told me to bait me into something. She justified it as "we were separated" but later told me she realized that's not right. I handled it really well. This has happened in the past and I've worked through it with my therapist that she does this not out of malice but out of desperation or being alone. Which I feel like my observations are the same. It's understandable, I get lonely myself and she is childlike with her self-control. It's something I can move forward through.
11. 2 months of no contact, a lot of self improvement and growth with myself (I stopped going to therapy in April, mainly due to the lack of the prior tremendous amount of stress between my wife and my job since she moved out March. Did a check-in with my therapist a week ago tho, we're both very very proud of the way I'm handling life right now). In general the low/no contact and only emails have either been very nice or very nasty. It depends on how she gets triggered or what she's dealing with but it didn't matter to me. I ignored all of the noise and I treated her like I would a business professional. Later on she calls me about some house deed transferring stuff. I told her she obviously wants to talk to me because she could have emailed me like everything else. I told her as long as she respects boundaries I have no problem speaking with her. She asked how I was and we left it at that. She called again a few days later. I no longer feel anxious like I did months ago when having to speak with her. I was able to speak my mind and with grace. I've forgiven, processed and moved on from the hurt. She apologized for the things she's done and understood I have no reason to forgive her. She asked if I was willing to forgive her and if I was willing to let her back in my life if she worked on herself and the relationship.

So we've talked about things. Trying long distance and taking things slow. Doing what we didn't before which was moving in together after a couple months and then getting married after that. We're going to still divorce and transfer the deed back to me. We'll do long distance with visits. She's going to stay in the state she is because she got a great scholarship to go back to school. I might consider moving up there next year since I don't have anything going on here since I lost my job. I am now working for myself from home. We will do the dating and learning thing about each other again and then talk about marriage maybe after she graduates in 4 years.

My main question is what should I be addressing and how. I've already explored why I would be willing to try again. I am satisfied with my answers. I'm already really pleased with my progress and how I've handled the separation since March. I'm no longer depressed or anxious. I'm getting back into my routines. I feel confident in starting over with good boundaries. We both want to make sure we never get into a situation again to where we can't leave each other at any moment. We both want to hit our strides before coming back together. She feels a bit scared that she is not ready yet, that she is still struggling with her issues and needs more time to overcome them and is scared of bringing me back down. How do I healthily make sure all of what she says isn't just smoke and mirrors. I guess what I've been telling myself is it doesn't matter if it's smoke and mirrors, I will have strong enough boundaries and self respect that I can just continue on with my life if it is. I did tell her I didn't want to waste my time though. I'm still detached enough from the relationship that I can continue on unscathed, but I'm also interested enough in working on it through self-improvement and that it's something I can really want.

I feel like we're doing what a normal couple could be very apt to do... and if I want it to work I do have to treat it like that. I've been really trying to practice compassion and not judging people this year, and a self-respecting healthy amount of "benefit of the doubt", I feel like everything she has been saying and going about it is "normal". But I need to remember you need airtight boundaries with someone with BPD and that there will different more challenging areas to overcome. I just want some more perspective to make sure I'm not missing anything or what I should specifically be addressing before anything happens, as clearly there was a lot of dysfunction to our relationship.

hi ziasquinn3000, and *welcome*


ideally, you want to get on the same page. have a series of talks about independent and interdependent values, ways to improve the relationship, building trust, accountability, that sort of thing.

i have some questions that will help us better advise.

was the biting in january the last incident of domestic violence?
does anyone know about the DV? your friends or family, her friends or family?
has she gotten back into therapy since october 2018?
i understand itd be logistically difficult, but have the two of you considered couples therapy?

Thanks for the message!

Yeah good call. We have been talking a little about analyzing some behaviors from both of us that reflected our values and what that might look like now.

yes
Most of her family knows. I think only a couple of her friends know, but otherwise none. All of my closer friends know. I'm not close at all with any of my family. When we blocked each other on facebook in May she posted a long status on facebook about how I told her to "kill herself". So all of her friends saw that. It wasn't entirely about that, she said she contributed to the toxic relationship as well and she primarily focused on a lot of her health issues and own illness and I can understand why she would hone in me telling her to kill herself would be what drives her away given the circumstances. When we re-added each other the other day I asked what she deleted because I saw she referenced "thanks for all the support on my last post" but it was gone. She said she deleted it because she thought I would be mad if I read it. Red flag to me and I told her that and how I felt about it and she showed me what she said, which is a nice change of pace. I'm not sure how I feel about it, I obviously will respect private conversations which is what I told her but she let all of her friends see that and it obviously paints a terrible terrible picture of me. Granted all of her friends are pretty surface level facebook typical stuff so I don't think it will impact our own lives. No mutual friends saw it.
Yes, but completely stopped again at the end of March. She is looking to go back now but is trying to figure it out as the only places that accept her insurance are 2 hours away (therapy and regular medical). she started back up again at a different DBT place that took insurance, in January. Before it was all out of pocket at a place that led us to believe they were the only "true" DBT place. We also did couple's therapy at this new place as well from January - March. We were still attending couple's counseling for a few weeks after she moved out. She wanted to end things for good at that point and I didn't want try to change her mind and felt similarly. That's when I gave her space then eventually started seeing again sporadically. We tried to not discuss relationship issues and live our own lives and only have fun with each other because someone on these forums mentioned before therapeutic separation. It helped a lot until she started to get overwhelmed with all the newfound responsibilities and loneliness of living alone after a couple months and as well as that blow up after her family visited.
We're both open to it and she is visiting later this month and said she is ok to do a session with our old couple's counselor, depending on how that goes maybe we can do it once a month. I definitely think it will help for someone to be able to ask us "what should we be addressing and how". The only way I think we can do it is if we do it when she visits. Is it something that we should focus on bringing to the forefront immediately, or should we work our way back up to it since we are supposed to start a bit slower? Right now it looks like she will only visit once a month for a few days at a time. I might visit her when I get more freetime. In the mean time we'll focus on the indepedent and interdependent values by reflecting on our past and hypotheticals until we have our session.

sunlight can be the best disinfectant. its also good to have support. domestic violence can be a really isolating/ed circumstance.


not that kind of sunlight 

i might read it as a sign of good will. she may have written it in the heat of the moment, and she didnt want to cause a ruckus with you about it.

one alternative might be, in a time of calm, to talk about solving problems together, not airing relationship grievances publicly.


i dont know if theres a right or wrong answer to that, but an objective third party can certainly help in resolving long term conflict, and improving communication between the two of you, as well as coaching in terms of relationship goals and priorities. those are always good things, if both parties are serious and invested, rather than trying to fix the other person, or pull the therapist to their side of the conflict; thats when couples therapy is destructive and can make things worse.

While I agree, most of her actual friends are not the best influences. She tends to surround herself with people that are used to these things. "showing your man who's boss if he doesn't give you what he wants" is something that would probably come out of their mouths. She knows they're not good influences but she has difficulty finding good friends because most of them are work friends and she doesn't have a career type job yet. Not only friends but all of her family have incredibly low emotional intelligence. Arguing, passive-aggressiveness, etc. are all behaviors I can see she picked up from her family.

She did offer to make a new status with a bit more "whole picture" type things since I've told her it makes me feel pretty dumb since all of her friends think I'm an abuser. I told her not to since she would just look silly and I would look controlling and she can on our anniversary next year if she feels inclined to and happy enough with the relationship to preach about the "good stuff". She's also been telling her family she is going to try and make things work out with me but they all tell her she's a fool.

Just a bit of an update. Things have been going faster than I originally thought and I feel ok about it. We've been talking a lot though only sparsely about relationship issues. Everything she says and acts still seems "normal" and acceptable to me. She is respectful, mindful and considerate and not over the top kind of way. If anything I guess it shows that she is capable of acting this way at all.

She said she's not sure about going back to school even with the scholarship because she said if she doesn't commit the full 4 years she has to pay it all back (she has a track record of not staying committed to things). Because of all the debt she got herself into the past year as well she would work herself to death between school and trying to pay off her debt. She says she wants to spend the next couple years or so squaring all of that away first. I've been making sure to ask her about what she would do if I was not in the picture, because I don't want her acting based off me and my plans. She says it'd be the same even if I wasn't in her life. It all seems believable but I guess realistically it's hard for someone to change so much in only a few months. I'm making sure whatever I choose to do they are things I would do regardless if she was in my life or not.

She's going to visit in a couple weeks for a week and we'll see how that goes. We're gonna talk about most our relationship stuff then. And she wants to move back in next month if she is able to find a full time job (and only if she does) down in my state. I feel generally fine with that but I want to see how the week goes and what we're able to talk about and accomplish.

Some more news. Going to vacation with her and 20 other family members that live in the EU. It will be good for me to vacation and good to socialize with from what I gather the "good" side of the family (and socialize in general as I'm usually pretty alone, introverted, but it's what I've been working on this year), they mostly live in the EU. She also actually ended up posting on Facebook (she asked me if she could) about how she withheld certain information and actions she did, how she mislabeled me as a man with awful intentions and that I have been by her side always and have always had open arms and patience towards her. She felt it was important to back me up and to also not make things weird with her family as I will be visiting them now.

This is another huge thing that stood out to me today. She told the parents she is staying with today that she lied to them that I told her she couldn't talk to them when we were together. A couple years ago my wife ghosted those parents and then came back into their life a couple months ago and she's been living with them since then. I knew something was off with the way she said they called her a fool for trying to work on things with me. So I am glad that she told them and myself the truth because I didn't know she lied to them or me about that. A couple hours after that tho she called me in a panic and said she needed to move back right away because they were being mean to her. I tried to be understanding but reminded her that now it's her turn to be the one with open arms and patience since she caused the pain to them. So I'm proud of myself for not saving her. She also said that was weird to think about having to be the person who does "good" and then the other person probably doesn't know you're doing the "good" things, which of course makes sense for her because of the constant need for validation. She texted me later thanking me for the help and how much her anxiety went down by being patient about the situation.

I tried to make sure she understood why it's important to tell the truth and what it meant to tell the truth right away and compared to later. She's afraid of telling the truth right away because people will get upset at her (mainly she thinks I will, which I don't, major projection I guess). I told her that if she tells the truth much later, people will be more receptive because time has passed, but those people including myself might become so detached from the thing she lied about or herself, that it wouldn't matter to them anymore to care about the relationship with her compared to the lie she told.

Overall I'm seeing a lot of signs that it might be too soon to try working on our relationship again (mostly due to her continuing to try and rely on me) but I handle my side of it fine and she seems to do fine after the fact as well. I'm pretty excited myself to be able to try again and be with the person I love. So much for slow, but I guess there isn't really a formula to any of this stuff. I'm feeling good so far with how I'm approaching this as "normally" as possible and not being overbearing or overthinking about it (with maybe some casualness? I'm not sure what word I might be looking for. Being a codependent, overcontrolled person I've always needed to have plans, or do things specific ways, or overthink, but I'm pretty chill lately). She will be back in therapy next month and we might try EFT for couple's counseling.

Would love to hear any input. Thanks all!

Just another update. Things have mostly been good in regards to communication between us and we have discussed a lot about relationship stuff as well. However there is an issue. She has been compulsively lying and it has me concerned considering we have only been talking for a couple weeks. When we first started talking I told her she needed to let me know if there was anything I should know or if there were any lies she should tell me about. She has a history of lying. When she first told me the truth about how she told her parents I told her she's not allowed to talk to them, I asked if there were anymore lies she should tell me about. She said no. During this time is when she was supposed to get an STD test, which when I asked her that she already had it done and said as much. Fast forward she tells me she just remembered something that she lied to me about her being diagnosed with celiac's disease, which was right before our trip to Japan which made the trip very very difficult. She explained it was part of her eating disorder tactics and not that it makes it right either way. So I asked again if she had anymore lies she could think of. She said no. Fast forward to yesterday she told me her doctor called her and let her know the STD test was all clear, so I asked if she can get the paperwork so I can see it (I asked for a digital copy a week ago but she said because her insurance is out of state she couldn't sign up for digital records) She started gas lighting me so I stopped talking to her. I knew something was up because it's very easy to see when she gaslights, she called me later and I stuck true to my values and was willing to talk with her but I held my position stating it doesn't have to do with her it has to do with my own health and she eventually said she lied about getting a STD test because she just "knows" she doesn't have anything. Aside from telling her that shows me she's "ok with risking my physical health even if the odds are slim to none" all I did with that information is tell her to look back at when she gaslighted me (she had texted it) and to evaluate the things she said and ask herself some questions (DBT stuff). She said it was hard for her to read it and she was disgusted with herself and wouldn't want to be with someone like that. But she appreciates me willing to continue to work through it with her and she's going to keep trying her best to not be like that.

After all this happened I told her in general I don't think she's ready to be back together with me, at least if we want to do it right. During the phone call she said she has been lying all her life so it's hard for her to just stop lying, so I told her if that's the case then she's not ready to try again in a relationship yet. If she is ready then she just needs to stop lying, period. That's the whole point of being ready and it's a choice she is making when she lies (she said this made sense). There were also some other red flags happening after she gas lighted me and before she told me the truth when she called on the phone I said I wanted some time to process things and think on my own she started with the panic of "oh no please don't leave me, don't hang up on me let's talk it out". I realize this is something that's going to exist in the relationship in being with someone with BPD, no matter how healthy she gets because the very same night when we were talking she started having suicidal thoughts, her body freezing up, etc. but my head-space was good and I was able to support her in a very natural way without taking too much energy from myself and talking about regular things to distract her. She was over it in a matter of minutes which is completely different than the past where she could be stuck like that for hours and I would kill myself trying to get her out of it. A lot of being in a relationship is making sure I am in a good space myself and can be compassionate about her still being a person with flaws and it makes things way easier for me to still talk and treat her as a person going through a difficult time.

If we do try again with her moving in we have to immediately get into couple's therapy and work on the lying stuff because me not trusting her is going to wear her down by being frustrated I can't trust her (anyone would feel this way, being constantly questioned) and it's going to wear me down by having the responsibility of having to evaluate when she's lying. I know because this was a pattern we had in the past. I tell myself that I have nothing to lose by trying again because my boundaries will be strong enough (which I am super  duper proud of myself of my boundaries so far since I have been talking with her) and I tell her that as well. That I will try to have a normal relationship but always put myself first to make sure I'm taken care of in case she does do the things people with BPD tend to do. Such as the lying, etc. IE. She lied about STD check, so that means no non-protected sex. Easy and it's not focusing on her it's focusing on me and my own safety with no judgement towards her. In the past I used to make it so much about what she needs to change or do.

My hope is one day she will realize she can't break the boundaries and if she wants to get what she wants she will have to be a partner about it. Right now my current concern even tho I have nothing to lose is that she sees how willing I am to forgive so I'm concerned she will get into the habit of doing things then asking for forgiveness. I tell myself that since it's compulsive lying that still trying is viable, since it's more of an illness thing that can be worked with, because almost all of the lies she tells are completely benign and serve no purpose, in the past that is. These lies have been pretty bad though considering what is at stake.

Would love to hear any input! It really helps getting outside of my life perspective than just my friend support system. Thanks again

what happened here? what was said?


thats certainly a trap you dont want to fall in, but positive reinforcement is important - positively reinforce telling the truth in the first place: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=103822.0

(all these things happened over text) She randomly told me that she remembered she had lied about having celiac's disease and I assume used that as a "truth" to make me less suspicious about her STD test because right after she told me that, she had told me her dr. called her about her STD results. So I asked if I could see the paperwork. She said she can't get it. So I told her that I'm starting to feel uncomfortable because she keeps telling me about lies when I already have told her to tell me everything at the beginning. She said she has the worst memory then laughed it off so I said it's not really something to laugh about. She instantly told me to stop shaming her. I told her I wasn't shaming her. So then she sent this:

"You're talking down to me. Sorry I can’t handle this at the moment. You can phone me about it when I have a minute but I’m not arguing over text. (15 minutes later) I lied about the celiacs months ago, and we have been living apart and I haven’t been following it. So yes, I forgot. It was an eating disorder tactic, which I’m not saying makes it okay but at least gives some background information on it. I lied about telling [parents] about that thing too [I wouldn't allow her to speak to her parents]. That was the only lie I’ve done since we’ve gotten back together. I don’t appreciate you coming at me for lying and asking for physical proof of everything that I do. It’s not fair to me. I understand I’ve lied a lot. Trust me I have paid for it with you and myself. And I am not going to be pushed around and forced to collect evidence for every single thing I tell you. It makes me feel horrible and it’s unfair. You’re gonna have to trust me on some things. On a lot of things. And over time, the trust will be rebuilt."

I didn't reply (because I was busy and knew it wasn't good for either of us to talk at the moment) so she called me like 15 minutes later and we talked and she kept saying that I can't question her on everything and I tried to explain that I just want to see the document for my own comfort and to make me feel better. I focused on myself but she still tried to twist it about how I am being controlling by wanting to see the papers (more gas lighting) and I can't keep questioning her. I stood firm on my position and then she admitted to lying about it.

I've known about her BPD since we first started dating. I know how the dance goes and what warning signs to look for so these things aren't really new to me. My problem in the past has always been putting up with it for too much since I am codependent which would suck the life out of me. Now I am trying to let her do her own thing while I just focus on what is good for me.

Yeah you make a good point about positive reinforcement. When she told the truth about lying to her parents, she not only told me the truth, but them the truth as well and I made sure to really validate her and praise her in her language, I mentioned how big that was in my last post. I think that's part of why she came clean about having celiac's disease but I also think she used that as a "front" to hide the STD lie better so I would trust her more. Pretty manipulative but common sense can see right through that which I am proud of myself for. Regarding the link you sent as well, yeah these are great points. I've had to learn about them overtime especially with labeling. My therapist grilled me about calling her a liar in the past when she lied so much but she pointed out I can't label her because that's "all or nothing" to her. Ha, ironic how that stuff works. BPD and nonBPD, humans are funny man. Thanks for the reply! Eager to hear what you have to say.

i think you both have a point.


i think from her perspective, this is true.

you need accountability, and you need demonstrations from her that build trust (mixed record on her end as of late, obviously). reasonable thing to do to need to see the paperwork. a little pushy in practice. it doesnt sound to me like shes gaslighting you, it sounds like shes telling you that. tweaking the approach can yield better results.


granted, im not privy to how this went, but as a general tip, be careful about over validating or praising, it can be received as condescending.  you might put it in terms of what it means to you, and how you think it betters the relationship, for example.

If from her perspective I was shaming her/talking down to her, how could I have better told her that I was uncomfortable? I guess not mention the extra "I told you at the beginning to tell me about all the lies" and kept it as "I'm uncomfortable without seeing the papers." period. Then leave the ball in her court.

Well, doing what I did she did take accountability. She drove 2 hours again to go to the dr. to get the test. So I think what I'm doing is working but I guess I can try to work on not talking down to her and I still feel like if I do better at that part, if we get into a situation when she is blatantly lying to me it won't matter even if she doesn't feel like I'm shaming/talking down to her. I think maybe she would have just said something like "well you just have to trust me" and left it at that, which I guess is when I enforce my boundaries.

Thank you for reminding me to look from her perspective, but I'm not really sure what I should take away from what you said regarding that part. Regarding the over validating, yep, I did exactly what you mentioned. Very great point and it works!