BPDFamily.com

Hello Everyone,
After months of finding a co parenting counselor I recently had my first meeting.  A couple of questions if I may ask my bpdfamily. 

Expbd seemed to be very relaxed today and seemed to mirror the therapist.  The therapist actually sided with me for most of the times, a few things I need to work on, but no ones perfect.  Does the exbpd always mirror the therapist for the first couple of visits or do they finally break down.

ExBPD seems to express that she still loves me, just by her actions or at least, has anyone ever seen this.  Today she told me that she still has resentment towards me but at the same time said she was in love with me at one time.

Has anyone experience the bpd splitting the therapist.
 

It's not uncommon for someone with BPD to split the T black once the T figures out what is going on.

H's xW split their daughter's T black as soon as H hired him...and a year later she still thinks the T is the evil mastermind stealing her daughter.

Can you say a little more about how she was mirroring the T?

The therapist is saying how we should work things out instead of court and she agreed same with me, however exbpd is very unreasonable with what she wants so it makes me look like the bad person that I have to file for custody.
On a side note I can prove that exbpd lied during the last session, should I bring this proof up to the co parenting counselor and prove that she lied, any thoughts?

I feel that it would depend on what the lie is and the way that you can prove it.
Can you share what it is that she lied about?

Exbpd keeps making up rules just for me about my sons daycare.  I can't pick him up early or else there is a fee, I can't do this, I can't do that.  She is stating that I can rearrange the daycare schedule but I have proof that we can.  It just another way she dosn't want to co parent.  I actually have all the enrollment paperwork relating to my son and her rules that she states don't exist.  I want to bring it up to prove that she lies but I don't want it to make it seem I'm on a war path.

Then you could start the next session with the goal of having the T help you work through a co-parenting example, i.e. the childcare schedule. You might even bluntly tell the T that he/she will get a good look and feel for the dynamics between you and your wife when you are trying to resolve a situation. Then open up the topic with a clear statement of what you want and need, with lots of "help me understand..." and see where your ex goes with it.

 Thoughts?

That's a great idea Galgrl, I will state that I want to you an example of the conflict in our co parenting relationship and see if we can work on a solution.

I agree with GaGrl on how to approach. Do you have these conversations in text or email? Otherwise she's likely to deny that she ever said those things. Even if you do, having them printed out might trigger her. Maybe start with what GaGrl posted and if she denies ever saying those things you can then say something like. "Ok, so you agree that it's ok to pick up our child from daycare?" If she says yes then that issue is no longer at play because she agreed in front of the T. If she says no, have the enrollment paperwork with you to show where it is allowed.

Your T, over time, will be able to see if your ex has a tendency to lie without you helping him/her see it. If she's like my ex, it won't take long.

 

"Help me understand" is great advice.

I'm curious why it matters when or how you pick your child up from daycare? Do you need to go through your ex?

I want to rearrange the schedule around so we can eliminate the unnecessary pick up and drops. Exbpd makes up "rules" why I can't so in a sense I do need her help to do this for my son.

Do you think she does this to ensure you have face-to-face interactions ability you?

@GaGrl: Yes I am 100% certain this is why.  When I first post this topic I said that I "think she still loves me" because she would say things how she wants to be involved in my life instead of being eliminated out of it. Do you know why she wants to do face to face interaction?

Well the borderline has been lying through her teeth at co parenting counseling to the point that the physiologist cut me off and sided with her, it seems that if I don't have proof of her lying such as emails and such that she will lie.  Our last co parenting class ended very miserable with me and everyone.  Any ideas?

What did she lie about? Do you have at least texts that show something different?

Perhaps the move to email is a co-parenting topic for next session, i.e. "There appear to be a number of communication issues with texting. If we agree all communication is via email, we can be transparent, especially if we need to bring something to these sessions to resolve."

 She wants to have face-to-face communication because she needs to feel you are still connected to her and she has not been abandoned. (My guess.)

Hello Galgrl,
She is lying about events that we have no proof on like items that happen face to face, etc.  It is driving me nuts because the co parenting counselor is siding with her.

What co-parenting issue do you currently have going on that you have any shred of documentation that helps move you forward?

What about the conversation about pickup directly from daycare?

What is going on that is so logically, common sense that a counselor or judge would say, " Oh, sure...That makes sense. "To

Do you trust this counselor to see the logic, to have a hope that he/she will be objective?

I've noticed that the co parent counselor gets sidetracked a lot.  I did the help me understand thing and immediately the exbpd got him sidetracked and talking about a different subject.  When I brought up about issues in the past the co parent counselor says like "oh she didn't mean it like that" especially with the extortion.  Exbpd will like about anything that I don't have proof on.

The only strategy that worked for me was to focus on solutions.

It is reasonable to expect that the coparenting counselor will want to focus on solutions -- if she is out of her depth she will get sidetracked, so you simply have to bring the conversation back to what you are there to do: solve problems.

Ex: He dropped a water balloon on my head at pick-up and made my coffee weak.

Counselor: NYF, stop dropping balloons on her head. Ex, make stronger coffee next time until NYF cuts it out with the balloons.

You: Let's help the counselor understand what's happening in these interactions. I propose we record what's happening and then discuss them, the three of us, so counselor can help us understand what each of us can improve.

Or, You: I propose that we eliminate face-to-face interactions for the immediate future and move our communication to email so that this very smart and helpful counselor can pinpoint exactly where things are breaking down. I'm concerned that without an accurate transcript of our interactions we are getting side tracked. As we get better at communicating, we can focus on some of these other important topics.

So has anyone ever have the therapist rule in favor of the exBPD parent.

What do you mean by ruling?

Let me rephrase this: has anyone ever had the co-parenting counselor write a report that leaned in the favor of the bpd family.  How do co parenting counselor reports look like.

A coparenting report with a BP involved, not sure how the report should read.  Like couple's counseling, coparent counseling is meant to be equitable, that neither parents is singled out.  If this is necessary it should be done without the other parent in the room.

IMO, coparenting that has any possibility of being effective should ONLY be with a T that knows BPD.  Otherwise the situation can be made worse however well intentioned the coparent counsleing was intended to be.  This has been my experience.

A few years ago I went back to court based on some issues I was having at transitions and with exuNPDBPDw.  The custody master, who was just recently given the position and that had no family court experience sentenced us to coparent counseling not recognizing or being aware that this was a high conflict case and the percentages of success with CPC were nearly nil.

The T we used is a well renowned child T in the area.  After $110 in copays for sessions, we ended the coparent counseling.  During the time we went through this therapy our now S14s behavior actually got worse.  During this time I would hear the same words from S14 as I would hear from mother.  It was obvious that she was talking to S14 about what I was saying during the sessions.  This is one of many ways that "conflict" is introduced to the children.  Hearing different things from mom as is heard at school or from dad. 

Incidentally, one of the three key factors for a child's development that this T gave us was the need for a conflict-free environment for the child.  This is not how a BP works.  A BP will intentionally create chaos and conflict to be in control.

So at the end of these sessions I sent the T an e-mail, stating how concerned I was about mother's behavior and the resulting influence on S14s development.  Hearing this, his response was, "Mr. Scraps, but momster says these very same things about you!"  It was sickeningly validating for me, this T had no idea of what BPD was, or what psychological projection was.  Game over for me, more $$$ spent with no positive results and the sitch even got worse.

So the next step, I demand a formally documented report.  The report was cut right down the middle, "Mr. Scraps you said X, Mrsx. Scraps said y."  On and on, there was no bias to either side and this T protected the possibility of himself getting called into court for cross examination. 

These are reasons why coparent counseling doesn't work and maybe shouldn't even be considered if a BPD is involved.  And if the T has no knowledge of BPD then he/she won't be able to spot the signs of what is truly going on.

Incidentally, this was our second shot at coparent counseling.  Our first, w met with a female T, agreed we would have three sessions.  After about 15 minutes in that first session, I got a chance to speak.  With that, ex stood up and walked out.  She just couldn't take the fact that she wasn't going to run the sessions and that I would be able to speak.  This has become a well fortified pattern of her behavior, whenever she volleys an idea, or I ask why she is doing something, she cuts off all communication and goes ahead and goes in a different direction without discussion or consultation with me.

This is a bit of venting for me as it is one of many indemic examples of how deplorably equipped the family court system is to address mental health issues and the fallout in these situations.

Be aware and beware, don't hold hope that coparent counseling is going to help.                         

Thanks scraps66: The co parenting counselor seems to side with me most of the times.  Exbpd won't admit guilt to anything she does if I don't have proof.

Are you saying that she admits guilt when you have proof?  Even that would be a first.. 

Hahahaha...hahahahaha...roo maka me raugh!  Nope, never gonna happen.  Out of the 47 months I was married to mine, considering the myriad of bad things she did directly to me, I heard "I'm sorry" three times.  I counted.  I think it gets worse as time goes on, they tend to create their own reality and lose sight of reality.  Sort of the more you lie the more you believe your lies.  I have recorded this, her losing sight of reality and believing her own creations.  Typical.   

It would be helpful to define some terms.

"Ruling" sounds like you are in court.  Most therapists don't say "you are right and the other is wrong".  They may nudge one way or another.

Can you give an example of a "ruling"?

There are recording apps that you can start using during face to face things.  Separate issue of wheth you should "use" the evidence or not.

pwBPD have a unique point of view (most of the time)..it is what it is.  Trying to convince them of "the one and only truth" is usually wasted energy.

It is likely a better use of time to ask the following question.  "We seem to have very different points of view on (describe a face to face).  This appears to be a pattern.  How do you advise we move forward for the benefit of our child instead of advocating for our point of view."


See how that shifts the argument. 

original "I'm right she is lying."

new "This is confusing...how can we proceed for the benefit of our child"

Over time...it will become less confusing.  (and I suspect the clarity of who is lying will become clearer...without specific effort to "show" that...at least on your part.)

Best,

FF

Well the session two times ago told me that he doesn't believe the mother would engage in such "bad" behavior.  It seems like every session the therapist sides with one of us.  I now know I am not going to get anywhere with this therapist at exbpd acts nice and tries to play the victim.

So...is that an example of "ruling"?

I would think that is an expression of "shock"...that it's hard to imagine someone being so bad.  (which it is).

Then...if what the T is seeing with their own eyes doesn't match...they will likely do what most people would do...take it under advisement and let time elapse.  Over time things will get clarified.

Think about it just a sec...does the T know either one of you?  So...if there are claims being made...how would the T decide? 

And..why would the T decide?  Why not just take in information and see where things play out over time?

Listen, I'm not trying to argue with you...but I don't understand the value of a T that accepts claims at face value..with no supporting evidence. 

Is there something I'm missing here?

FF

Your right, formflier.  The T doesn't know any of us at the moment, so when he said I don't believe she is that bad was a shock to me.  We are only in co parenting counseling for a few more sessions.

How is it that you know how many sessions you will have?  Is it a guideline or is there a fixed number?

As you are finding out...any kind of counseling situation with a pwBPD is usually "frustrating" (how is that for being polite about it?)

My wife has done it on and off with me over the years and I will tell you that most of the "gains" that were made have generally come later...after time has passed.  Then time was spent on those new issues.

I will also say that most of the gains were NOT because of what my wife realized and changed...but the understanding the T got about my wife and our "dynamic".  Then the T could guide me into having healthier responses...which would "force" my wife to respond/react in a different way.

Last... for now.  At one time I viewed counseling through the "right/wrong"  "truth/lie"..whatever you want to call it lens.  That was not helpful for progress. 

When you tell someone they are lying..it sort of shuts down the conversation.

As opposed to  "Interesting...that seems important to you.  Tell me more about what you experienced."

Then...as you listen and "train your ear", you can pick up emotional changes.  I suspect you will find that when there is a gap in memory, yet a powerful emotion is there...your pwBPD will "fill in the gaps" and do the best she can to "express" a powerful emotion.

That's why learning about "validation" is important. 

I'm not saying "the truth" doesn't matter.  I am saying it doesn't matter as often as you likely believe it does.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF