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I was baptized, raised and confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church. I can clearly remember being a believer in God and Jesus. I prayed, but never really had the attention span to study the Bible on my own. Somewhere along the way I believe I abandoned my faith. There are several reasons I’ve been speculating on while exploring this. Obviously they all lead to having disordered parents and a highly dysfunctional home life. I think that one big factor in this is the fact that my dad force fed us Catholicism, but he was full blown NPD and highly abusive behind closed doors. A thought came to me a few days ago regarding abandoning my faith in God. Did I possibly create a void within myself when I turned my back on God, and was this void vulnerable to some pretty dark moments in my life? I’m far enough along in the healing process where I can give more thought and attention to things other than myself. Religion and God has become a pretty big topic for me. I may be reading into some things a bit much, but sometimes I can’t help but think I’ve been receiving signs that God is still there for me. Please don’t mistake that for magical thinking, it’s just that I’ve been picking up on little nuances that I wouldn’t have paid any mind to before. I’m curious about other’s thoughts on the possible void that may be created when one abandons their faith. Thanks for reading.

JNChell, I have been going through spiritual struggles for several years now, beginning before my father's death. He was a Southern Baptist deacon (pay position), and he had very conservative beliefs. I had religion "shoved down my throat," as a child and teen, while already knowing that the denomination was not one that nourished my spirit and soul. I moved to another denomination shortly after my 18th birthday.

My husband and I were discussing this just this weekend. He is attending services and bringing my 93 year old mom home every Sunday. He gave up on the denominational dogma years ago (he was married to a Buddhist for many years) and he attends for the fellowship. I can't -- I just can't. I am still actively seeking somewhere -- a body of believers of like mind -- that will be nurturing and accepting. I feel I walk with God and can connect with prayer, but still I wonder if my spiritual makeup now is so far off the usual Protestant denominations that I need to step away to something radically different.

One thing I knew quickly -- I can't sit in my old/childhood church with tears running down my face because I'm in such conflict with the content of the service and sermon!

I believe we find out way -- maybe not back to the way it once was, but rather to a way that fits.

I like how you described finding a way that fits. That’s where I believe I’m at. I’m feeling ready to, or I’ve shoveled enough crap out of my life to be able to accept God again. Maybe it’s a matter of feeling worthy. I don’t really know yet. Something is missing, though. It’s not romance. I’ve accepted my childhood and the anger that resulted. I accept all of it. I’m feeling at peace with it all lately. I hope it sticks. I understand that for it all to stick ultimately comes down to me and my choices. I’m optimistic about that now that I’ve learned what I have.

I just know that something is missing and that something has been missing for a long time. I can’t just plunge myself into religion blindly hoping that that is the answer. But I also can’t ignore the thoughts and feelings. I can’t ignore the nuances that are currently getting my attention and causing me to pay close attention to them.

Quote from: JNChell on July 24, 2019, 05:45:35 PM

I think that one big factor in this is the fact that my dad force fed us Catholicism, but he was full blown NPD and highly abusive behind closed doors.

I know this can feel horrible. To be subject to what we see as hypocritical behaviour. For a long time I've felt crumby about this, so I get it in that sense. It's one thing to be subject to authority from a boss or teacher—it can feel another animal when it's a parent. I'd actually say a cautious well done on having—and this is my read on this—quite a neutral relationship with God; in spite of how things were between you and your biological father.

Quote from: JNChell on July 24, 2019, 05:45:35 PM

Did I possibly create a void within myself when I turned my back on God, and was this void vulnerable to some pretty dark moments in my life?

I think when you ignore God, I appreciate it may feel like a vacuum there. A lot of us have those spiritual needs. So yes—I think those needs lead cause you to be ineffectively open to things that cause you to be vulnerable to those pretty dark moments. If you don't have God with you, then you have a dearth of faith, and of course if we don't have something, we can't give it to people—which includes your self.

Quote from: JNChell on July 24, 2019, 05:45:35 PM

I’m far enough along in the healing process where I can give more thought and attention to things other than myself.

This is a big deal. Moving forward in healing isn't as easy as just distracting ourselves away with X problems at work or Y problems at relationships. It's not fun to heal sometimes, and if you've done the work—then I highly encourage you to recognise your rewards.

To me, what recognition can mean is pursuit of growth. I like to work on growing the emotional dimension of entitlement. So with that 'healthy' narcissistic direction some of us seem to be after, you could guide yourself with questions like what things will this do for me, and what do I want from this, before I invest my thought and attention to it? Narrowing the scope, you can see, OK this community has X reputation, and this pastor is blessed with Y gifts—is that in greatest alignment with what's best for me?

Then if you've other stakeholders involved, use empathy to understand if your decisions will have a positive or negative impact on them to shield yourself changing that healthy narcissism into something sinful (sin in the sense of love of things over and above people, love of God).

The plus point of leading yourself with questions this way—in addition to avoiding sin—is that you'll be less likely to end up standing at a point in outcome where you think "I don't respect myself for following my emotion into this choice". And I think this applies to at least work and dating. That's relevant because a lot of us caregivers are drawn into places where other people need, versus our needs. At least at the unconscious level. Therefore if we've space blessed into our lives like you do today, then let's be self-driven into places where we want to go.

I think that's consistent with Turkish's suggestion to lead with asking for something that's important to you.

I hope your meeting those communities you're looking at goes well.

We talk about this in ACA groups ( included children of dysfunction). I think it is even written about in the Red Book ( similar to the blue AA book but for ACA).

Our families of origin influence our God concept as a child. Children tend to form their ideas about God based on their parents. As they get older, they need to redefine this concept based on their adult thinking capacity.

Some adult children have to cope with what was religious abuse in their families.

If we have critical or dysfunctional parents, our God then becomes a "Gotcha God"- scary and unforgiving.

For myself, I imagined a God who was taking note of every mistake I made, who would reject me. When I was a teen, I even imagined that God didn't like me. That wasn't God, it was how I thought about my parents.

Sometimes what we think of God is really our inner critic. I was so critical of myself I wondered if God was more forgiving of me than I was. ( and I think that's true) Don't confuse your inner critic with God.

The members in the groups I have attended take different directions. Some remain in their faith of origin, and redefine God- not based on their childhood perceptions of God. Some leave religion all together. Some change religions or denominations. They can't relate to the religion they grew up in due to the kind of experiences they had, so they start with one that doesn't have those memories. Some try different ones until they feel a fit.

We also talk about spirituality vs religion. I think what people are seeking is spirituality- a deep sense of connection with the divine. How people achieve this is different for different people. I know that I contradict the tenets of some religions when I believe that it's OK to choose the path that works for you, but I do believe that there are many paths to finding the connection that you seek. Maybe taking some time to explore will lead you to one that works for you. If Christianity is your choice, there are many denominations of Christianity. They can't all be wrong except for one. ( my own opinion)

gotbushels.

I know this can feel horrible. To be subject to what we see as hypocritical behaviour.

I didn’t notice it when I was a kid/adolescent. But yeah, it was crumby for a minute. After being here for a while, normal is a very elastic word. I’m sorry that you went through similar realizations.

My relationship with God was neutral at best for a long time. Over 2 decades. Still is, I guess, but I’m tapping into that now. Man, a lot of good and helpful insight has been shared!

if we don't have something, we can't give it to people—which includes your self.

This really struck a chord. I’ll be thinking about this.

Thank you.

Notwendy, you bring some very interesting things to the conversation. I have read/heard that children basically view their parents as God. It makes sense that our opinion/view of God would be influenced by our parents. Thank you for explaining to me that as adults, at least in cases like we read here, we need to redefine what God is to us as adults. Not under the umbrella of disordered parents. Disordered parents = scary god or a god that wants nothing to with me. I know that isn’t true. I’m trying to gain some bearings here on finding my way back. I do feel some shame for turning my back. I didn’t even know I was doing that in real time. I think I was just blocking everything.

What really strikes me is your mentioning of confusing our inner critic with God. I think I’ve done this a lot. ParentS=God as children. Inner critic comes from parents, but parents are God. That makes sense. I guess it just takes some growth to see, and advice from others who have seen and learned more.

I struggled with this too. If I made a mistake, I would assume God would not forgive me easily. After struggling with this, I realized that God is probably more forgiving of me than I am.

Growing up and even as an adult, even the smallest transgressions were unforgivable with my parents. If I left a toy out, I was the worst kid ever. If I talked back as a teen, I would be punished. It seemed the sentence was larger than the crime. And BPD mom doesn't forget it.

I wanted to be a good person, and worried I wouldn't be good enough for God.

Surely you know this doesn't sound like God. It sounds like a child's interpretation of how my parents felt about me.

Spiritually, I did want a connection. Eventually I began studying my own religion and gained a different perspective. I think it makes sense to do this as an adult regardless of our childhood. We can only understand so much as a child, and as an adult we have a different perspective.

Hey JNChell and GaGrl,

So I've written about this a few times in reference to pwBPD and faith. The way I visualise it is that we all have a 'love bucket' in our core. In an ideal world, the love bucket is where parental love resides, it's like a big PHat rock of Kriptonite or Uranium pulsating away in the background. When we're scared, in a tricky spot, on our own, we always have our love bucket to keep us warm and cosy. Childhood trauma (resulting in BPD or not) results in holes in this love bucket and the Kriptonite leaks out. As adults, we've gone to therapy, we've done the work and patched up the love bucket (pwBPD typically haven't) so our love buckets can fill up with love and joy and all the wonderful things. But this stuff just isn't as glowing hot and powerful as parental love... IT'S NOT UNCONDITIONAL. However... there's another source of unconditional love, that's the love of God. Think about it, no matter what you do or say God still loves you... just as the majority of parents do love their offspring. Parents of serial killers still visit their sons and daughters in prison, what does a person have to do to lose the love of his/her parents?

I don't yern for the love of God as much as I know my W does, I have parental Kriptonite in my soul pulsing away so I fortunately don't NEED God as much. I struggle with faith along with scientific evidence, faith in God is irrational, but that's the very place he resides for me. Faith in God was never intended to rational, else it wouldn't be referred to as faith. I see his guiding hand now, I hear the whispers, I feel his strength carrying me in my darkest hours... his timing is impeccable with very personal pick me ups and words of support. I trust he is working in and around my W even though she maybe ignoring him (whilst pretending to hear him).

Reevaluate your own faith for yourself. Find the church that works for you (or not). Leave your parents indoctrination behind and separate your parents polluted thoughts from biblical teaching. The 2 things are co-mingled at the moment like a ball of string. Wipe the slate and start a fresh.

Enabler

Okay, caveat... "Think about it, no matter what you do or say God still loves you... just as the majority of parents do love their offspring (unless they have disordered thinking themselves)."

Healthy parents are hardwired to love and care for their offspring else mothers would abandon their children at the first sign of a threat. They would give preference to themselves for food and resources therefore endangering their genetic line by potentially starving their own children. This doesn't happen in nature. In much the same way that children are hardwired to love their parents no matter what... else they'd run off into the savanna and get eaten by a lion after the first argument with their parents (which is why parental alienation is so odd and identifiable in young kids).

I was raised Catholic. Later in life I went to a Christian Reformed church. Dutch Protestant roots from the reformation.

I learned through the rooms of recovery that there is a difference between Religion and Spirituality. Religion is a set of organized rules and belief systems that a group adopts. I try not to EVER feel guilty b/c I choose not to accept a certain rule or belief in the church that I go to. I take what I like and leave the rest. I love that freedom I allow myself to have.

Spirituality is more of connection to a higher power.

I believe there is a higher power (whom I call God) b/c I feel the connection sometimes. I feel the presence if I am listening to it. It sometimes blows me away. It's also like a muscle though. If I use it gets stronger. I have to remember to invite my higher power into my life through prayer and meditation.

It is said in the rooms of recovery that prayer is like asking God for guidance and meditation is listening to God's message.

Battery is running low... Have to end for now.

BG

*mod*

I split this topic into two:
Will spirituality enrich me (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338338)
Abandoning my faith caused a void? (Christian topic) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338440)

I think there are two very different topics at play. The first one is about spirituality in a general and open discussion. The second is about a Christian interpretations/explorations targeted at devout Christians (hence the use of "Christian discussion" as per the guidelines).

We ask members to group faith discussion by a faith (Christian, Buddhist, etc) and have those discussions as devout member to member. We also support general cross faith/non-faith discussions where members of all beliefs and non-beliefs tackle a topic. These tend to be very different discussions, just as "Conflict" and "Bettering" are often very different approaches to the same question.

Also, I split part of the discussion out as requested by a member:
My dad was a missionary and was an always-right, all-knowing spiritual leader. (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338443)
Carry on!

1.11 Respecting Religious Belief Systems: We are a multi-national and multi-cultural community and narrow faith based discussions are allowed. By narrow, we mean that when a thread host raises a question with religious implications they are entitled to a discussion that stays within the confines of the teachings of their specific religion or denomination (e.g., Atheism, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, Scientology, etc. ) for their specific topic.

For example if a Jewish host is exploring "why does God allows mental defect", then participants need to stick to Jewish philosophies, practices, and interpretations. Discussions about Atheism, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Mormonism, Scientology or agnostic beliefs are not intended to be part of this exploration. We ask members to add "[Discussion of Christian Beliefs]" or "[Discussion of Buddhist Beliefs]" to their threads subject line to help guide other participants.

If someone wants to have a specific cross faith discussion (e.g., Catholic vs Protestant beliefs), then they will need to specify the specific faiths.

We very much encourage members to explore how well they are living their faith and how their relationship with someone with BPD affects their faith. At the same time, we ask members not to use faith to judge, criticize or condemn others. There is increasing recognition by leading experts of the benefits of mental and emotional therapies which blend ancient faith based practices (Western and Eastern) with more contemporary clinical practices.

Proselytizing, secularizing, debating across or within belief systems, or diminishing the religious beliefs of others or judging others is neither constructive nor respectful and is a serious breach of the discussion format.
https://bpdfamily.com/guidelines#religion

My mom was raised a Presbyterian, became a Baptist after marriage. But when my parents divorced, found that while my adulterous father was still treated well, she was treated badly, like a fallen woman. So she left that church. She went to various denominations to see if anything clicked. Eventually, she became a Unitarian. That worked warm for her.

My friend, Patti, was raised a Catholic by her PD mom and distant father. She left the catholic church and tried many different beliefs: Bahai, Buddhist, Wiccan, you name it. Two years ago, she was baptized in the Russian Orthodox church. She is at peace.

My point is, if you feel something is missing, keep searching until you find what feels right. Don't settle for something that you can't really connect too. Even if that leads you to no specific religion, but a spiritual way you can live with.

One last thing, I have acquaintance who was pgst of Jim Jones's cult. She left before they moved to the jungle and committed mass suicide. For years she shunned religion. Then someone invited her to a church service where they served brunch afterwards. Never one to pass on a free meal, she sent. And discovered that she enjoyed the service, the people and the fellowship. She told me that she had been "mad at god", fir what had happened. And that she no longer needed to carry that anger. She'd was released and free.

As for me, I realized in my early 20s that I did not feel comfortable in churches. I have followed a spiritual path that feels right to me. I pray, meditate and read. And that is all I need.

Hi again, gotbushels. I’m glad to see that this topic has gained some traction.

if you've done the work—then I highly encourage you to recognise your rewards.

Thanks for pointing that out. Validating myself is still a big obstacle. It’s easy to lose track of things when there is so much to learn and understand when climbing out of proverbial rabbit hole.

I like how you explained healthy entitlement. It’s ok to put ourselves first. It doesn’t necessarily mean that someone outside of our bubble will be hurt or disappointed in us taking that measure for ourselves. If they do, maybe we’re not responsible for their feelings as long as it’s in the spirit of self preservation and self care?

Notwendy,

Growing up and even as an adult, even the smallest transgressions were unforgivable with my parents.

I can relate. Going deeper, I remember how unpredictable the home atmosphere was. One day, a slight transgression meant severe consequences. The same transgression the day after could mean no reaction from my parents or even a sympathetic response. It was impossible to navigate. Low and behold, I’ve been gravitating towards dynamics like that as an adult.

Spiritually, I did want a connection. Eventually I began studying my own religion and gained a different perspective. I think it makes sense to do this as an adult regardless of our childhood. We can only understand so much as a child, and as an adult we have a different perspective.

I’m finding this to be true. There’s a lot to re-evaluate as adults when coming to terms with childhoods like we experienced. There are many layers to it. Once the initial shock and trauma are realized and understood (which can take a long time) we’re able to create more mental space for topics like this and begin to explore ourselves freely without manipulation and fear. Peace can return because we’ve made the space for it.

Hello, Enabler.

I really like your analogy on the “Love bucket”. It makes total sense. Like you, I also weigh science against religion. I can read science and, for the most part, believe what I see because of proven facts. When it comes to God, that isn’t available and I agree that it’s irrational. What I can’t ignore are the feelings. As we know here, feelings don’t equal facts, but there is a pull and subtleties that tell me to examine this. I’m at a place where I can consider having faith in my life again, but I’m just not sure about it. That’s why I’m talking about it.

I’m not actually reading the Bible, but I’ve been binge listening to a Bible study podcast. The stories are so intricate. Some are very calculated in their message. Some seem to be left open for interpretation. Aside from my observations, that’s a very complicated book that wasn’t written by a run of the mill author (not minimizing authors with my statement). I’m simply unsure. After reading how Notwendy tied our parents and God together, I think I may still be a little foggy on it all. With that being said, I understand what you mean when you say to wipe the slate clean and start fresh.

Quote from: JNChell on July 25, 2019, 06:34:32 PM

I’m sorry that you went through similar realizations.

Don't be. I think mutual sharing on FOO things sometimes helps all of us to move forward from feeling isolated then to acceptance, then to creative action.

In a roundabout way I hope I can share something to encourage your experimentation with churches. I decided to ask some acquaintances to church. We went for drinks afterward. I shared some history. One of them told me she went through something similar, and then I thought hey—I don't feel so alone and with such a crumby situation.

Quote from: JNChell on July 25, 2019, 06:34:32 PM

if we don't have something, we can't give it to people—which includes your self.

This really struck a chord. I’ll be thinking about this.

If you like that kind of thing, then I encourage you to follow this guy instead—he came out with the principle long before I did rofl.

"Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need."

It's quite similar to the idea that a parent only knows how to parent by their parents—and if they parent in 'sinful' (or ineffective) ways, it's because of what they were given by their parents. Of course, why people parent a specific way is much more complicated than that—but I think in the context of behavioural change, the biblical principle may still apply. So to have something good (e.g., non-'sinful' ways) for your children—then labour is what's required for it, so that you've got something different to give.

2 ¢ -- I consider myself agnostic/atheist most days, but 12 step work and my therapist have both encouraged me to get in touch with a "higher power." I also grew up with a Catholic background, but lost touch with that long ago. So, no, even from an atheists' perspective, you are not crazy for seeking out spirituality after going through a major life upheaval.

For me, my search focuses a lot of meditation and yoga. I've gone to Sahaja yoga classes and recently also started learning about "A Course in Miracles" (all free/low commitment). I look for moments of "kizmet" in my day to day life as some evidence that something bigger than me is offering some guidance. It's interesting the overlap between all these things. Most come back to a focus on meditation as a way to connect with something larger and get out do your own head.

Hi JNChell
Cradle Catholic here, Catholic school and all. We raised our boys Catholic as well. We even tried a few other denominations. A few years ago I was rally blah about my faith, I drove a lot for work and came across EWTN it’s a Catholic radio station with all sorts of hosts. The best part is people could just listen or call in with questions and not be judges. Personally what I found was the church really isn’t what I thought nor as scary and I have been able to find a place of peace with having a bpdH. I also have yelled and swore at God and don’t have “Catholic” guilt . I wish you luck on your journey, I believe you will find the answers when you least expect it.
Masang M

My thoughts are that, after reading and thinking about this conversation, this is a very personal topic for everyone that has contributed and that it’s ok for me to make this about me. In fact, I’m quite excited about it. I think I’ve been ignoring a very good friend for a very long time and that it feels like I should rekindle that relationship.

Basically, I can look at this two ways. One being that if I would’ve had a relationship with God, Jesus and the power of prayer throughout my life, I would’ve likely avoided some very hurtful situations. Personally, I think that frame of thought can be a slippery slope and possibly lead to resentment if not observed wisely. The second thought is that what I’ve experienced has lead me to where I need to be to accept the Lord and Savior with compassion, empathy and love for all involved. That’s what I’m choosing to subscribe to.

Good for you JNChell, I might add that having gone through a period of self reflection during which I would hope that you have attempted to ensure that your integrity (actions and behaviours aligning with your believes personal values), you’ll be able to tackle your spiritual life in the same way. As you know first hand, many religious people do not have said integrity hence they forge their own path in religion bending a moulding the biblical directions to suit their actions rather than shaping their actions to mould that of biblical direction. Living a spiritual life with utter integrity can utterly enhance your being. Having an unwavering set of Christian values bolted to you can be hugely beneficial not least in providing you with a firm consistent foundation with which to launch yourself from.

All the best finding your new home.

https://youtu.be/YNqo4Un2uZI
https://youtu.be/byEUIzfVLAs

Enabler

BPDFamily.com

Children, Parents, or Relatives with BPD => Parent, Sibling, or In-law Suffering from BPD => Topic started by: JNChell on July 24, 2019, 05:45:35 PM