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MOD NOTE:  Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339020.0

Turkish,

So her great grandad would be your grandfather?  Did you have a sense of why she was asking?  When you say your mom told you things you shouldn't have known, was that when you were a kid?

 :hi:


So, is it accurate to say that you don't really know anger and what it looks like when it is handled and expressed in healthy safe and constructive ways?   Rather than anger you witnessed something more like rage.  So do you really know anger?  I am trying to thread a needle here and I think I am failing... can't find the words.   Fearing the kind of rage you witnessed and were subjected to is, I think, rational.  I think you don't know anger.  Sorry it is late and I can't find the words.


Thank you for hearing me.  I think we often learn what our role was quite well and then continue to let it remain our role.  Scapegoat, golden-child, lost child, etc. They were roles that were assigned to us by mentally ill and dysfunctional people.  They do not define us any more if we don't want them to.  Sure, they influenced us and the ways we experienced life, but we can choose to move beyond those roles.  It is scary and exciting all at the same time.

Mortifying?  Okay, you can see it that way and I will see it my way.  I see it as being brave and very very smart.  It shows you are not defeated and are still a fighter and are strong.

 |iiii

Hi Harri,

I have to say your insights have been a bit of a breakthrough for me.  I've been holding back on making changes in my life or taking risks until I "work through" my issues.   I've realized it's a lifelong pattern for me and I want to change.

Over the past few days I"ve gone back to the Survivors Guide and I think I've been stuck between the remembering and the making the commitment to heal.  I think of how scared my mum was when my dad went into rehab.  She told me she felt didn't think it was fair if he got better and moved on since she had suffered so much as a result of his addiction.  I think maybe she was really afraid he wouldn't need her anymore.

For me I think I'm afraid if I let go of being damaged, crazy, victimized, etc., I will be fully responsible for myself, which I never really learned how to do.  I think by being the "lost child" you mentioned I grew up not feeling capable and at the time being absolved of responsibility, if that makes sense.

So anyway, I am trying to change my outllook and my actions. 

 :hi: Zabava

I wrote a similar thread to yours the other day. I want you to know that I get it, I too am scared and at the start of a process that I understand is going to be very painful. I think I myself am stuck between stages 2 and 3 and I'm petrified.

You are not alone by any means  :hug:

LT.

Thanks LT,

It's hard to move forward sometimes and it's comforting to know I'm not the  only one.  What do you think keeps you stuck?

What a very interesting question Zabava. To answer is going to require me to be very honest.

In a nutshell, FEAR. Fear that I was wrong and my beliefs are false and that all I ever knew was a facade. The thoughts I have been having are quite intense and that's due to me reliving things that I thought I had long forgotten about, to turn over all these rocks is horrible and that's why I am stuck, part of me does not want to accept because with acceptance, pain is not very far away.

LT.

This is a tough realization to come to Zab.  Good for you.  Change is scary as in this context is requires giving up bits of who we think we are and changing everything that goes along with that.  I get being scared of that and I get fear related to what LT wrote about too.

I remember the first time I realized that my mother had been lying to me for decades about me hitting her, causing bruises.  One day i saw she had them again and asked her already knowing the answer in my head and my heart... knowing I did it and that I had blocked that memory out because i was crazy.  So there I am with my stomach dropped on the floor (not literally obviously :) ) a loud buzzing in my head and feeling dizzy and nauseated... and for whatever reason (particular alignment of the planets?) she explained the real reason she would get them, even saying it had happened many times before.  That moment, I just realized as I am typing now, was a turning point for me.  Making me question everything I had been taught and told about myself. 

What can the both of you do to help yourself through the fear of changing?  Any mantras, techniques, philosophies that you can use to change your perspectives while working on accepting?  I don't really have answers for you, just thinking out loud here.

 :hi: Harri.


I have thought long and hard about this. I (unfortunately) have a history of loss going back years and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that everything changes, nothing stays the same. This tells me that at some point things will get better, just gotta go on a rough ride first to reach those better days.

LT.

This is really good.  I like it especially because it is realistic and you still allow feeling bad, sad, angry, whatever without minimizing it, and while maintaining a positive attitude that things can and will change.   |iiii

Hi Harri,

I know I am more than my past.  I understand that my parents did the best they could with the skills the had.  I feel proud that I have raised my kids differently and they are mostly ok.

But every time I allow myself to really remember and examine my childhood, I get very sad and sometimes feel despair.  When this happens my house gets messy and I don't cook meals from scratch, I can't respond to my kids' emotional needs.

My husbands feels neglected and anxious and I get angry when he complains.


So,  I avoid moving forward because I feel like I am hurting my family by focussing on myself.

My mom once told me she did the best that she could. I'm not sure that I accept that. People say that I'm a good dad, and am successful, yet I never feel that I've done the best that I could with either. Maybe your parents never told you what my mother did, but I can't imagine saying that to my kids. 

Hi Zab!   :hug:

Okay, so you understand you are more than your past.  That is good.   Would it be fair to say that on some levels you are still letting the past define you and even prevent you from taking action to change?

Nothing is going to change for you without changing something on your end. 

Do you think not working on things results in you being the best you, mother and wife you can be?  That the depression you feel is not affecting every part of your life?

A quote about dealing with shame from Pete Walker:

"I commit to myself. I am on my side. I am a good enough person. I refuse to trash myself. I turn shame back into blame and disgust, and externalize it to anyone who shames my normal feelings and foibles. As long as I am not hurting anyone, I refuse to be shamed for normal emotional responses like anger, sadness, fear and depression. I especially refuse to attack myself for how hard it is to completely eliminate the self-hate habit."

Harri,

I know my depression has made me a bad parent.  I feel very guilty about that.  

My youngest is 12 and I know I haven't been the best mum over the past few years. She watched a video of me recently from years ago and she said, "Look, it's happy mummy".  I felt terrible. 

So I guess I don"t feel like I'm enough because I've let my kids down

Zab, my response was not about you being a bad parent nor was it offered as an opportunity for you to further beat yourself down.    :hug:

 

How can you turn this around and rather than use it as a means to feel terrible, use it as a means to motivate you?

Nothing is going to change for you without changing something on your end. 

I'm right here with you, once we have become aware, the feelings that follow are hard to digest. But I see this as a catalyst for change. Through gaining knowledge and understanding we can change/modify our behaviour. The resources on this site have been fantastic for me and also all the great moms on the son/daughter board. I find that I talk to my children differently these days, I am more patient and understanding of their needs. You may or may not have let your kids down but you can strive to do and be better, I think we all can.

LT.

At the time you did the best you could with what you knew and what you had, given the circumstances. There are many factors and circumstances we cannot control, yet influence us very much. Your/our best is not a fixed absolute number or absolute truth. The best you can do is always dependent on the circumstances which may not be in your control. Your best today isn't the same as it was yesterday or will be tomorrow, it can be higher or lower from day to day depending the circumstances. Being a child and adolescent being raised by a disordered parent is a major factor that we can't control, and that actually also impacts what we know and learn and what we have since the BPD parent often controls our world. Once we know better we can do better and as adults we also have somewhat more means to influence our own circumstances.

Harri

I thank you for making me think and challenge the hateful voice in my head.

I have realized that the only one who hates and judges me is me.

It has been a pretty profound shift in thinking which I am still processing.

Thanks.

You are welcome Zab.  I think it is pretty indicative of your strength that you stick with this.  I know it is hard to fight through that damn voice in your head and how every part of you just wants to avoid or maybe run.  I admire you for sticking through this and I am quite proud of the work you are doing.