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Forever - Thank you.  I will look at that book.  Boundaries are extremely difficult for H, but he has to get there for everyone's sanity.  I am hoping his therapist is helping him with that.  Those were some good examples.  I think H's biggest mistake was being conned into thinking they could be friends and coparent together.  I think my biggest mistake is expecting too much from him.  We have a discussion or he comes to a realization and I put faith that he will do the right thing.  And sometimes he does a little of the right thing, but he gets sucked back in so easily and quickly.  I think boundaries will make a huge difference.

Worried - I don't think he tried to appease her.  But I do believe his reactions are not what they need to be.  I like the "that doesn't make sense" rational.  

Yes, I don't like my daughter having any part.  Unfortunately, they know some of the situation by virtue of just living in our home.  We try to shield them from as much as possible.  These aren't their problems.  H knows he's hurting everyone which then causes a tremendous amount of shame on top of everything else.  As far as BPD is concerned, the trust is minimal because he needs to earn it.  He has done some things to earn it, but he still has a long way to go.  Baby steps.  It's the step backwards which kill me.  

Once you file it, you have to also enforce it. He has to enforce it. That means calling the police to report her violations. Do you think he can do that?

I honestly don't know if he can. 

I did try calling the police today as I knew she was sitting on my deck.  He said he wasn't letting her in the house, but she was outside.  I told him that was not allowed.  Well, unfortunately the police said he would have to call because the person complaining has to physically be at the home to speak with the police.  And I don't work close to home and take public transportation so I can't just pop over.  So, we know how well that worked.  I told him I called the police and he freaked out.  I had to fess up and say they won't be coming after a while because he started to have an anxiety attack but I reiterated how she is not to be at the house or on our property whatsoever and that D's and I don't feel safe.  He said I needed to stop pushing because he wasn't strong enough and it would just make her win.   :(

H said his therapy session was about not feeling responsible for her and her choices.  So, I asked what the plan was and he said it was too hard to explain so I should just speak with his therapist.  I'm going to meet with her tonight. 

This morning he tells me the FOG is lifting and then he does this.  Oh, and I tried the find my iphone app again and her phone is no longer listed.  He must have removed her from his apple id after figuring out how I was tracking her.  One good thing is she should never have been on his id to begin with, but now I can't track if she's at my house.

How do you interpret this?

That if I continue to try to force to move faster than he is able to, it will backfire and he will turn on all of us.

So do you hear this as a threat?

What does it mean that BPD "wins"?

I see that as H feels backed into a corner and if I push much further right now, he will just give up.  One of the residual issues from his childhood is he was taught that if it gets tough, just run away.  H acknowledges he is miserable, he doesn't know how to get out of the situation, everything I'm saying is accurate and resonates with him, he wants help, but he's petrified.  Petrified of what I don't understand as I don't get why he couldn't just tell her to go to h***.  But, it's real to him and it's powerful.  And he thinks he's helping even though he knows deep down he's making it worse.  So, he wants help but he's scared of the help and having to follow through more than what he's currently been doing I guess.  Does that make sense?  I mean he has had SS sleep at our home the last three nights and dealt with a ton of backlash for that decision.  And in his way, he has been standing up to her.  But, to an outsider it feels miniscule. 

The day his lawyer forced him to get an order of protection against BPD and get the temporary custody, H could barely function.  He didn't know which way was up.  He did what was told but felt physically ill and had to literally be told what to do every step of the way.  Afterward, he was okay, but he broke the order of protection by posting pics of SS on a shared Google Photo account and making some comments.  His lawyer was livid.  H is known to self sabotage.  Again, this comes from his childhood trauma. 

BPD has always felt this is a competition.  And she wants to win at all costs.  Her main plan is to win is to get H and I to divorce.  She only thinks in terms of winning or losing.  So, if she can ruin my life, that's a win for her.  It's not about her being in love with H and wanting to spend the rest of her life with him.  H is literally the only person left who will speak to her.  So, she is digging in and going for the win.  In her mind, it's life or death and he's her only option so she is going to have to win to make it work.  Now, once she finds a new option, H will be discarded unless she feels she can continue to use him while using option B at the same time. 

When do you see your T again?

To me, it seems that

• His boundary is that he won't remove BPDex from the marital property
• Your boundary is that BPDex can't be in your home

There is no way that both of these boundaries can stand simultaneously.

The actions that both of you are taking to get your opposing needs met are massively unhealthy.

• He is actively taking steps to make sure that BPDex can be in the home when you aren't there. He shares a secret with his affair partner - they are sneaking around on you.  Again.
• You've resorted to asking your child to spy on dad in certain circumstances.

I feel sorry for both of you.
Your H is struggling with trying to protect BPDex's mental health versus his own. 

You are struggling with trying to protect H (and your marriage?) versus yourself and your girls. 

I hope that with your T you can figure out where the line is - what boundaries are absolutes for you (plus how to enforce them effectively) versus what you can let go of temporarily.

No wonder BPDbiomom thinks she is winning. Part of the game is seeing how much of B's time she can steal from you on the sly. She calls -- he goes to her, gets her a motel room, worries about her, returns to sleep with her. You leave for work -- she hangs out at your house/on your deck.

This is more than busting boundaries. She is either not in touch with the reality that your marriage is real, or she is actively attempting to humiliate you.

Worried - I won't see my T until the 24th but can text or call her if I need her before.  She is always accessible to me.  I did meet wtih H's T last night.  She can see that H is making progress and agrees he needs to establish boundaries and get out of the FOG.  She said he spent 40 minutes in their session yesterday saying how much BPD has brought him down and he's miserable and ashamed.  She then asked what was he going to do about it and he said he didn't know.  So, clearly there is a long a work to be done.  She does realize she is obligated to report the abuse of SS to CPS.  She has never done that before and is nervous to do it so she's been putting it off, but I reminded her she doesn't have a choice.  My T is willing to work with her to submit the report.  One thing that was nice was she said how much H admires and cares about me and speaks so highly of me and is amazed by how much SS loves me and how I've been doing a great job with him.  He even told her that SS slipped a couple of times and referred to me as mommy.  While I think it's all great (no, I don't want to replace SS's mom...that is not my goal), I wish he could show me this appreciation.  He thanks me for everything, but I don't really "feel" it. 

Last night was night #4 in a row that H didn't listen to BPD and had SS sleep at the house and be around me.  Yesterday, her demand was file for divorce or I'm committing suicide tonight.  He shared her texts putting everything on him.  Probably the 1000th time she has said the same thing.  H did not run after her last night and stayed home the whole night.  She went silent to try to make him think she committed suicide (for the millionth time) but this time he didn't give in. She has never once actually attempted suicide so I'm not concerned that she did anything.   

I agree that boundaries are a big issue for everyone.  There is a lot of work to be done.  I am hoping my work conference (will be gone Sun-Wed) will give me a little mental break from the drama and I can come back with better perspectives. 

GaGrl - I believe BPD is doing both...she does not believe for one second that our marriage is real (it's not allowed to be in her mind) and she is doing everything she can to hurt me.  Ironically, I guess her sister reached out to her yesterday and told BPD that I shared how real my marriage really is and that it's not fake at all.  Although my marriage is real, I did not share that with her sister.  I looked back at all my correspondence with her and I never discussed it with her.  So, she either figured it out on her own based on her getting to know me a little or did it to mess with her sister (BPD comes from an extremely dysfunctional family).  Regardless, that made BPD explode even more. 

I am curious for the BPD's who have gone to facilities for help.  How do you find them?  I assume BPD will never allow it and certainly doesn't have a dime to pay for it, but I do know it's what she needs.  Her only source of income has been child support since she "doesn't want to work".  I heard her older son wants to go live with his dad and since she is losing custody of him, no more child support.  And if we get full custody of SS, no more child support from H either. 

That's a big step for H, that he stayed home with you last night.

Have you read any of Harley's Marriage Builders books or website?  He talks about Love Buckets.  They get filled up with praise and whatever other ways your spouse meets your emotional needs, but they leak whenever your spouse does "love busters".  I would wager a guess you don't feel the appreciation from H because he is simultaneously doing things that make you feel unloved.

My H's ex has been in inpatient psychiatric care three times. The first time was an involuntary commitment .  The second time, she checked herself into a facility recommended by her therapist.  The third time, I think her primary care doctor sent her because she had come close to overdosing.  She tends to be calmer for about 10 weeks after discharge, then she reverts  to her normal chaos.  We can't force someone with BPD to get help.   

The best thing your H could do is call the police every time she threatens suicide.  Eventually she'll either stop threatening it to him, or she'll be involuntarily committed for a little while.  I hope you are taking screenshots of all of the texts.  Those are good evidence in a custody battle.  With that plus her homelessness, your H should be able to get an emergency order for full custody pretty quickly.

Yes, I think it's a big step, but I feel like he still feels out of control.  He told me she came back today and wants to go camping with SS today.  Which means H would go as well because he won't allow her to camp with SS alone.  I pointed out (yet again) that SS wants to be at home where he is safe and can have a routine, etc. and isn't with BPD.  His response is that he can't take her son away from her.  It's like he understands one second and the next, he's back to thinking she has this right to be with her son regardless of what she's doing to him simply because she's his mom.  H said he didn't agree to go so I'm hoping he can stand up to her again. 

H knows all he needs to do is call his attorney and he could be awarded full custody in a emergency hearing.  But, he's scared to do it which is why I would like him to allow me to make the call.  He knows we all need orders of protection against her as well which would force him to stop the contact.  Again, he's petrified of what will happen to her if he does it.  All I can do is shake my head.

I would love for BPD to get an involuntary psychiatric hold.  With all her suicide threats (yes, he has them all on his phone and I do as well with the ones he forwarded to me) and her erratic behavior, I can't imagine it would be too difficult to obtain.  I was thinking if I could do some research and find a place, maybe H would be receptive to that because it would be helping her and not just putting her on the streets to fend for herself (which he can't seem to do for any length of time).  But, like you said, you can't force someone with BPD to get help.  And she firmly believes she is not the problem...everyone else is. 

The sad thing is that H was able to walk away from her until she got kicked out and came back with a vengeance.  It's as if he reverted back 2 1/2 years.

Good progress with H not responding to her demands!

The order of protection is becoming more critical. I doesn't understand that he is really the only person standing between BPD and her getting help from professionals. He is trying to act as an ex, a caregiver, a therapist, a social worker, a lawyer...no wonder he is exhausted. He needs to let the actual professionals take the wheel.

And I hope he holds out that SS doesn't "to camping." That's just a way of saying " being homeless with mom. "

I agree.  I think the order of protection is the key.  H is trying to be everything because she constantly reminds him that everyone deserted her and he is the only one who will give her the time of day.  Both of her sons don't even want to be with her and are preferring their other parent and steps.  That's a hard pill for someone to swallow. 

You are right about the camping.  She has not done one thing in the past 6 weeks to find a real solution to being homeless.  And H is too overwhelmed to do more than taking it day by day.  His T told me she was thinking H should just pay her off to make her go away.  Which I get in theory but H has no financial means to do that and she would just come back for more at some point. 

My H and I spent years bending over backwards to accommodate his ex, because she constantly accused us of trying to steal her child from her.  We were determined to prove that we weren't doing that.Because we spent so much effort to disprove her (ridiculous) accusations, and because we were both convinced that she was a mom who loved her daughter and needed to be fully involved...we didn't do right by SD12. 

Now that we understand BPD and now that we have been able to step out of the FOG, we realized our job as parents is to protect SD while facilitating a healthy relationship between mom and SD.   At least 25% of the time, mom is incredibly abusive, and the rest of the time (either as a good parent or "mildly" abusive) doesn't make up for that.

We found organizations that provide supervised visitation in our county.  For a pretty reasonable fee they will meet the parent and child someplace and monitor the interactions for a few hours.  (The two parents don't meet - the monitor escorts child from one to the other.) That's probably what we are going to start with.  It might be good for SS's mom too.  Here, it requires a court order.

I hope H realizes that protecting SS doesn't have to mean keeping him away from his mom forever.  But he needs the legal backing to make sure she doesn't just take SS and run, and SS needs proper legal parameters in place so mom can't harm him emotionally or physically.

What are the things from his childhood that are similar to this?

He sounds seriously regressed.

Worried - I’m sorry you have had to go through so much. I’m sure it is so freeing to be out of the FOG. I think supervised visits would be a great option but H is so far from being ready for something like that. BPD had those for a short period with her other son when his dad tried to get some sort of relationship started. BPD had done so much alienation and basically made her son feel guilty for even trying to like his dad that her son refused to interact and the visits ended. I’m so glad he’s getting to know his dad finally now that his mom is out of the picture.

I would hope BPD could get healthy at some point and have a productive and healthy relationship with SS but that time is not now.

Lived - H’s parents gave him a strong sense of abandonment and conditional love. If he didn’t think the way they did, they didn’t accept it so he became afraid of confrontation. He wasn’t allowed to fight with his brothers. Everyone always had to pretend everything is perfect. They  would remind him constantly of all the sacrifices they made for him. For example, his mom says she was on 9 months of bedrest with him and look at everything she gave up for him. I have heard that story at least 100 times. At 7 years old his parents picked up and moved to another country and took them away from everyone and everything they knew for no reason and still won’t say why his father gave up an extremely successful business to move. He didn’t speak the language and was moved around to 10 or so school including being sent to boarding school during a war causing a lot of ptsd. They never parented him. They didn’t help him in school, No activities or anything. He was basically left to figure everything out on his own. They look down on his brother for becoming a teacher. They became religious when H was away at school and they won’t accept that he isn’t religious. They actually don’t really acknowledge SS ( have seen him for maybe 15 minutes of his life) because he’s not our religion. They barely know our D’s. Never assimilated to our country but apparently don’t fit in to their old country. They taught H that running away is the best option

It was all extremely subtle. I just knew things were off. Our only fights were always after visits with his parents. After being together for 24 years they still don’t feel I’m part of the family and will say things to H and tell him not to tell me because they should keep it in the family. It doesn’t help that I can’t speak the language they typically speak when together. But oh are they sweet to my face. But behind my back, the things they say are awful.

No, it's not him taking child away from mother.  It's her experiencing her consequences.  She is majorly misbehaving and it is her responsibility, not his.

His child is only 3 years old.  I will often quote my DisneyWorld example.  I live a half hour away from a major amusement park.  Yet everyone says the kids have to go to DisneyWorld or DisneyLand over 1000 miles away.  People need to keep in mind that a 3 year old needs, not a specific memory, but a general "good times" foundation.  Who of us remembers a park or a camping trip from that age?  I did take my son, once, to DisneyWorld.  It was so crowded that we only rode a handful of rides.  Half of them were on the mountain roller coaster at 10 pm when everyone else was watching the fireworks or leaving.  That same day price was the cost of an annual pass locally including park, pool and parking.  The goal was for him to have fun and he was able to have fun over the years without the bells and whistles.

Frankly, her manipulative logic is to sooth herself, child would be fine doing whatever.  He should only agree to activities where she's under some level of public activities and still able to have some level of supervision without husband having to be right there.

The sad fact is that she would have to earn back unrestricted parenting.  It's not him, it's her.

Back to the quote above... He did follow the boundary, even if it was dicey for a while.  Good for him.  But he still having to deal with his Nice Guy persona.  He has to Accept that he has to be the adult.  There's basis to believe his personality with catch up with his head logic.  But it will be a process.  Maybe there will be some event that will stun him into a quicker resolution but odds are he will have to struggle to have "strong appropriate boundaries" consistently win out over her "master manipulator/guilt" maneuvers.

Forever - I am going to share your response with H. I think this is exactly correct and it is so impactful especially coming from someone who has been there done that. Thank you

Bottom line...I needs to understand that he is enabling HIS SON to be homeless a large percentage of the time. Ex-BPD is currently homeless, not doing anything to change that, and appears to be incapable of doing anything to seek help.

 "Camping" and having H get her and SS a motel room don't change the truth of the matter -- she is homeless, and she thinks it's okay for SS to be homeless with her.

That needs to be unacceptable to H.

He can, with compassion, resolve to care for SS with you, providing a path for her to earn her time with SS back. In the meantime, a supervised visitation situation would provide H and you the peace of mind that SS was seeing his mother in a safe place.

Hi Guys, a little update.  I am hoping maybe H turned the corner a little bit after a bad spell but I can never get confident after this whole roller coaster. 

Apparently when I was at my work conference, he let her in the house and even sleep in the basement after the kids went to sleep (I am livid about that), but she also somehow got into H's phone and read the texts between H and me which contradicts her "reality" so she got so mad at H.  Then, when I got home yesterday, she didn't want SS anywhere near me and H "defied" her and brought SS to me (who was so happy to be with me...super lovey).  Once again she insisted H bring him to BPD so she can say goodbye before she kills herself, etc.  Then, H drove her to a hotel for the night where she insisted he bring back SS.  H planned to give in and bring SS, but SS definitely didn't want to go. H and I spoke a little about what was going on.  He had seen his T yesterday as well.  He made a deal with T that he would contact his lawyer finally in lieu of her calling cps.  H had me reach out to his L and fill her in.  After everything, H didn't bring SS over the hotel and she got even more mad.  Oh, and I saw her clothes and stuff in the basement and I took it out to the curb.  I am not housing her things. 

Last night around 10:30, H couldn't stand it anymore because BPD said she was killing herself and turned her phone off (for the millionth time) and H went over to the hotel.  He said he regretted going but I think it was actually good.  H said it was the first time he's seen real hatred of H in her eyes and she went off on him.  H said he didn't say much but inside he was thinking about how much he hated her, felt used by her, her reality is completely warped, she's a liar, thought she was a terrible person, was abusive, etc.  I think he finally admitted to himself that is how he truly sees her.  He has been justifying her behavior for so long in his head and lying to himself or giving her excuses.  (I don't know how long this will last as he always seems to move forward and then backward).  Anyway, he did admit to me that she has become physically abusive towards him as well.  I asked how long it's been going on and he said a couple of weeks and then said it happened when she first became homeless as well (so I believe it's really been going on since the end of July/beginning of August).  I think he's horribly ashamed about it and told me not to say I told him so.  I guess when he left her at the hotel, she threw her phone in his car so he can't reach her anymore.  Again, I don't trust this is the end at all.

But, today, he did speak with his L.  He doesn't have money for a retainer (he used up all of his last retainer) so he tried to say he will wait to see what happens next.  I believe he needs his L to at least get an order of protection for both H and SS immediately and somehow we need to come up with the money to do that.  So, I need to get H to agree to that at least.  These past 6-7 weeks of BPD being homeless has financially hurt H a ton.  I don't really have money to pay for the retainer, but feel like I need to or his momentum will stop and we won't be able to get a handle of this nightmare.  What are your thoughts?  Should I help him with the retainer?  I know he can file for an order of protection on his own, but he is not strong enough to stand up for himself in court.  He really is paralyzed when it comes to that.  He needs the L to carry him through it.

G s, I agree the Order of Protection is the most effective way to go right now. It will cost some $$$, but you'll get the "most hang for the buck" from an OP. Definitely something to back you up on trespassing and harassing texts, phone calls, and emails.

Make sure you are included in the OP.

He might benefit from seeing a somatic experiencing therapist: https://traumahealing.org/

Being stuck in the freeze cycle when there's conflict, or in the flight cycle, is hard to kick when there's active danger (physical abuse, threats of suicide, etc.). For me, talk therapy without somatic experiencing could make things worse.

The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk covers the theory about how some of us become stuck in paralysis if the trauma experienced in the body is not resolved.

Somatic experiencing kind of titrates the physical/emotional healing so that the body isn't in shut down or defense mode when addressing panicky or stressful topics.

Some of the solutions presented here put a lot of responsibility on you for problems that he has to buy into 100 percent. An order of protection isn't going to mean much if 10 percent of the time he relents.

He is probably exhausted trying to use will power when something much more powerful is working overtime to provide short-term protection. That feeling of paralysis is terrifying when there is active conflict.

Lived - I have never heard of that therapy.  I will read up on it.  The link isn't working right now for me. I wonder if H's T has any experience with it.  Although she isn't as effective as I would like, she has helped H and he trusts her and wouldn't want to stop seeing her for someone else.  That does make a lot of sense as his body definitely reacts to the abuse and stress, etc. 

So I need some advice.  H finally stopped feeding into BPD a week ago and left her to fend for herself.  We had SS.  She sent the police to our house for a "wellness check" to try to humiliate H.  My parents had come in town so causing a scene in front of them was a top priority for her.  BPD reached out on Monday night and left a message saying she was showing up on Tuesday to get SS and would be bringing the police.  Apparently she made up with her family and went back to stay with them. Before she showed up on Tuesday, I took SS with me to run errands and was gone for three hours.  She showed up with her sister and when they realized SS wasn't there, they called the police.  The police made them leave and told H if she keeps on calling them like this, they will file a report on her with the CPS.  She didn't wind up leaving.  She and her sister parked around the corner and waited for me to return.  As soon as I did, she was there waiting for SS.  H stupidly agreed to let her take him for a few days with the promise that she bring him back today and that they speak regarding custody and getting back on track.  I knew he made the wrong decision and I think he did as well right afterwards.  BPD turned off her phone and has had zero contact since she took SS.  H sent the police where she was supposed to be (her brothers) and she wasn't there...another lie.  Now he doesn't know what to do.  We both know she isn't going to bring SS back.  He just gave her the power.  

What would you suggest as next steps?  He can call his lawyer and say she's in contempt of their custody order, but that can take months to even go to court.  

He needs to ask his lawyer to file emergency orders for sole custody.  You should have lots of documentation of her suicidal ideations and poor parenting.

Someone should also call CPS and report her (finally).

I might even go so far as to hire a private investigator to find her, show up there, and take SS.

Hi Grady,

I've been following your story and all the great advice you have been getting from the members here.

Just a thought, have you tried tracking her iPhone again? I remember you said it was linked to your husband's apple id.

It must be very scary for you and h to not know where SS is right now. I'm so sorry, but maybe this will destroy any notion your h may have had that bpdex is not a danger to their son.

Thank you.  H has a call into his laywer.  He has no money for a lawyer though and I'm basically out of money myself so that's not good.  In the short time BPD has been homeless, H went through all his money again and racked up his credit cards.  He has a loan payment due now that he can't pay.  His self loathing is at an all time high.  And I don't blame him.  I would hate myself if I got stuck right back in this situation.  H spoke to his parents (since they secured the loan for him as long as he promised to make every payment on time) and his dad's advice is to forget about SS and focus on the business and making money.  His parents don't understand why H wants anything to do with SS and thinks he's better to just write off.  Nice parents...

Apparently, her sister just told the police that BPD was admitted to a shelter with SS at an undisclosed location.  So my thinking is that's either a lie or BPD is claiming to be an abuse victim and they are "protecting" her from H.  So, now what?

H took her off his apple ID a week ago so no way to trace her.   

It is free to file a CPS report.  Mom has been homeless.   Mom is mentally and emotionally unstable (see the past month).  The child is not where mom said the child was supposed to be.  The child is therefore assumed to be homeless and in danger of mental or emotional abuse.

CPS will follow up and track SS down and figure out where he should be.

ETA:  And H doesn't have to be the one to make this complaint.  You can also do that.

Thanks Worried.  That's a good idea. 

My dBPDsister fled to a shelter with her then 8 year old daughter. My BIL called the police for  a welfare check. The shelter didn't want to be in the middle of it, so they had my sister give niece to the police who returned her to BIL.

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