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When you have to draw diagrams for your spouse, you know it's getting serious  lol

I'm about ready to hire an animator to make the diagrams move.

Actually, a small breakthrough happened last night. I will celebrate even a small breakthrough!

I talked about the DBT program and center with H -- the link I sent him -- said why I thought it would be great for SD22. That her texts to him were saying: "I need help. Mental hospitals scare me and my T validates that the feelings I'm having are understandable. I don't know who to believe but something is wrong and I'm scared."

Level 2 care includes DBT group classes with one individual therapy session a week plus 24/7 coaching calls. And there are DBT classes for partners like BF.

It's 20 min away from SD22's apartment and the individual therapy parts are covered by insurance.

Then a short discussion about how he could reach out to the T here and have her suggest it to SD22 if that's more comfortable.

My two cents to H: SD22 is looking for something between psyche ward and total chaos, and here it is. This program is tailor made for what she wants and needs right now. Let's go!

If SD22 ends up in this DBT program I'm going to my favorite restaurant and celebrating  :wee:

Did H commit to talking to her about it?

It sounds like she really could be a success story - she seems to recognize that she has issues and want to fix at least some of it.  She just needs the right tools.

It's more like I am committed to talking to him about it.

There is help right there. It's on the table.

The way he has been trying to help her is hurting her.

I am sticking to this one message until someone tells me she is enrolled in that program.  :check:

Yes..stick to message. 

Have you said to your H that what he is doing is hurting her?

While it may be true...I think there is a more delicate first way of approaching that.

Best,

FF

That DBT program sounds as if it were designed for her -- perfect!

Yes, broken record technique with the DBT message!

Perhaps the message to H can be focused on "no one person can provide SD22 the level of support that this program -- with professionals -- can give her."

Oh LnL you have deciphered this so well for H, and made it not about him, it is SD22's truth. That's the message you are keeping to.  |iiii


Level 2 is what DD did and the 24/7 access to the therapist at the beginning was especially helpful when she was distressed, they immediately helped her focus on accessing the skills she was learning, positive reinforcement. 20 mins away is perfect, that's how far DD travelled.

Doing a little jig here, breakthrough  :wee:

Keep going LnL you are doing just great  :hug:

WDx

OMG no  C<||| :caution:

I want to stay married  *)


That's a great way to put it.

One message and a tidy solution sitting on the table  |iiii


I feel SD22 could be a success story similar to what your DD is experiencing, WD. She is an inspiration  :hug:

I do too, SD22 is determined, she's hanging on, likely hopeful of a soft landing with family, if it comes to that at some point ahead.  :hug:

10 September  *) Are you and H in SI session, yet?

WDx

 |iiii

We start tonight  :wee:

My T called the facilitator to learn more about the curriculum, knowing that H wasn't entirely sold on what this is. I also went to the building to register in person and  woo. Very intense. The woman doing intake was lovely. She also talked about her father committing suicide, her brother being murdered, her mother constantly threatening to commit suicide, and how she, the woman I was talking to, attempted suicide and that's how she ended up doing the program she was now helping to run. Then onto a second facilitator who shared that her brother was schizoaffective, and she suffered from bulimia, self-harm, major depressive disorder, OCD, ADHD.

She asked me what brought me to them and my voice cracked telling them about SD22. It surprises me the range of emotions I feel for her. One day, I am in near tears talking about her pain, the next I am walking out of the room beyond aggravated that she's triangulating H into a nothingburger with BF.

The people I saw during the day are the kind of people H is working with in the ER. Homeless, group homes, people struggling to make it one second at a time. He will have thicker skin in some ways.

He has said that if it feels the program is targeting people with no resources and that it doesn't apply to us, he doesn't want to do the whole thing. But he has said he will keep an open mind and tonight, we go.

My T told me the curriculum focuses on how we create transparency and honesty about our loved one's suffering, how to respect them while putting safety first. For example, if they do call 911 and feel they need to be hospitalized, who do they want to be contacted, who don't they want contacted. Who can be power of attorney so that affairs can run smoothly, what medications are being taken, which psychiatrist or therapist to call, contact names and numbers at work, what to tell them, what the closest hospital is.

This will be hard for H, I think? It isn't the only focus, but it's the reality. The woman I talked to said she tells people, If you talk about taking your life I will be up in a half second calling 911 because I am not equipped to handle suicidal ideation. You say it, I call. I felt relief to hear someone say that, because it's what I feel. I wish H felt the same way.

The class will be attended by people who have gone through the day programs, working their way out of mental illness and/or substance abuse, who want to be peer counselors. So we will be a mix of them and families with loved ones going through those things.

I am nervous!

I'm rooting for you!  You've got this!   |iiii |iiii

Best,

FF

Makes sense to be nervous -- I think anyone would be, in your shoes.

I wonder if DH hearing the same message from "unrelated" people will help him process and understand. I.e., hearing "you need to call 911" from someone who carries no emotional weight with him might help the message get through.

Interested to hear how it goes for you guys!

I'm still following along too, sounds like a good program.  I would think the folks who are there to be peer counselors and who have had SI but who are able to be open about their stories will hopefully help your hubby see how things could be with his daughter...maybe lift his head out of the sand and see the daylight...openly discuss the elephant in the room.

I'll be interested to hear how it goes too.

Wishing you well,
Panda39

I also think it would be very good to hear that different people have different levels of tolerance (like the intake gal that said at any hint she calls). 

Guessing you guys are in class now.  Really hoping it goes well.

Best,

FF

 :wee: I landed the date spot on  :)

Oh LnL it is intense  :hug:

Thinking of you both as you are 'daring greatly'...

WDx

The program (called W.R.A.P. which stands for Wellness Recovery Action Plan) is based on the work of Mary Ellen Copeland:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOH5fps4Vpo

She wanted to know how people with the kinds of symptoms she was dealing with (bipolar) could live on a daily basis and there were no programs, no books. So she created them after being overcome with her symptoms.

H says he will return! He will be working next week during class so will miss that one but when asked by the person leading the group he said he'll be back. Then said the same to me -- he seems especially interested in the work book we will receive the third week.

So far so good!

I'm glad H is interested and willing to keep trying!

Glad H is up for more  :) I can imagine seeing some tools, the workbook may help H. Thanks for the WRAP share LnL I found a few more videos to watch.

A heads up, I also had a look at the personal crisis plan, it's an advance decision document (legal) that individuals use to outline their requests with respect to their health care and medical treatments in the event that they are unable to communicate this information. This lead me to research a bit further, here (UK) there is also an advance statement of wishes (non legally binding).

Whereas DD's safety plan is basic, when in crisis these are family, friends, crisis team, organisations she'll reach out to. No medic has suggested anything further at this time. It would definitely be a step too far for DD at this point, though it has made me think about the future and what ifs.

WDx

Thank you for the gentle encouragement and support, WD.

I wish I had better news to report. Part 6 of this thread and I am not sure I've made much progress although I've learned a lot.

H and I are no longer in the class.

It was a hard decision and parts of it came down to safety. It's not in a good part of town and the class gets out when it's dark. H does not want me to go alone and he has to work the next two weeks. There are ex felons in the class, former addicts, one woman apparently (was?) a prostitute, another admitted to three decades of boosting, which I didn't realize until yesterday was stealing  :(

Someone left the door open to the place during last class and the facilitators talked about safety, how a few times they've had issues with family members or exes who show up not in their right mind, creating security issues.

I talked to my T about it and she agreed, go with instincts. Mine are dulled. I had to talk through it with her. I didn't feel safe there.

Meanwhile, H feels I am focusing on what isn't working and am missing what is. To be honest, being in that class I realized he has a point. SD22 is doing a lot of things to take care of herself. She is not where I am, and I have to accept that doesn't mean she won't get there or isn't trying.

I wish H and I were on the same page, but we are at least in the same book. Maybe even the same chapter. I wish he felt strongly that she needs a full eval and a plan and could apply his loving influence. She's also an adult and seems to be adjusting to her new career fairly well, although fairly well is relative. She is living with BF and has less time alone than before. Texting has gone down, calling has gone down.

I am taking a break from this, whatever this SD22 SI thing is. I have been so touched by how caring and invested you've all been as I try to work through this. I know it can be hard to watch someone stand down when all signs point to other actions with better results.

I am going with a wing and a prayer for the time-being, continuing to learn and work gently with H.

Wish us well  :hug:

Um...The SI plan isn't working and the reason you/ are focusing on it is because of "risk management".

What is the downside?

SD22 can everything but this one thing going perfectly in her life and end up dead.  I hate to say it that way...but that is precisely the reason you are NOT focusing on what is working and you ARE focusing on what isn't.

Switching gears:  I agree with T...if things are sketchy.  Can you not go back when H can go?  Did he not make a commitment to go? 

Best,

FF

We both made a commitment to go.

It's not the right class for us.

However, the material is excellent so I'm working through what I can piece together. 

H is open to learning what I learn. The pipeline is open, we're making small gains.

So part of what we do here on these boards is look out for each other when the FOG rolls in.

Something to consider.

I find it worth noting and reflecting on that in an effort to increase safety for SD22 (I don' think it's out of bounds to say "Keep SD22 alive") there was a months long process that resulted in commitment to take a class.

After a class or two, a "safety concern" arose and the class was terminated...rather quickly.  No months long debate and back and forth.  I didn't get the vibe there was a concern for anyone's life, but perhaps I didn't get the correct understanding (please clarify)

So...how is it that (over here when it's a class) safety is paramount and well thought out (over many months and tons of posts) class is tossed away over safety (were there any professional evaluations of safety for the class area?) when compared to another part of your life where professionals (that specialize in keeping people alive) are pushing hard for action (the splashing water analogy) and your hubby kinda sorta went along with a class being enough to keep his daughter alive (or perhaps was/is blind to the danger)...yet the instant there is a hint of danger that gets him out of this class to help "save" his daughter.

Poof...class cancelled...safety is paramount.

Does any of this raise red flags?

Best


FF

The class is two things. It is information and it is also peer support.

Imagine being in a class with BPD sufferers when you are the family member.

It's a different dynamic. The peer support is not there because the struggling family member is the point of being there.

Does that make sense?

I have the information for the class, so all is not lost  |iiii

This is the piece that H and I are working on together:

https://mentalhealthrecovery.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/CrisisPlan2012Manual.pdf

It's a personal crisis plan ideally filled out by the person who experiences symptoms. What's different is that H will work with SD22 to address these different sections with me chirping surreptitiously in the wings.

I worked with my T on whether to return to the class -- I'm seeing her for somatic experiencing work related to past trauma. Some of the work being done in that wellness class, including the safety issues, is activating for me. I have had a high tolerance for danger and am learning to listen to those cues. Lots of gongs were going off and I need to listen, for me.

I'm all for protecting SD22 but this wasn't a good environment for me. H came to the same conclusion but hesitated to say so at first because he didn't want to appear to be not giving it a chance.

I'm also going to take to heart the importance of hopeful language, which I don't think I was doing with H, or in how I think about SD22. That's one of the lessons from the curriculum.

The first part of the wellness recovery action plan is hope, and the importance of hopeful language:

www.familyinvolvementcenter.org/phocadownloadpap/BH_Articles/English/DLImportanceofHopefulLanguageEnglish.pdf

I need to process all this.

Hey...I'm not at all suggesting you should have stuck with the class or that you/hubby acted inappropriately by stopping.

What I am suggesting is there is a massive gulf between action/appearances when there isn't a good environment for you, versus SD22 attempting to/suggesting she will kill herself.

It appears to me the "lesser threat" got immediate and quick attention and action while the "more serious threat" is...?

This really isn't so much for you to answer as it is your hubby.  I certainly understand that won't be a fun conversation.

The question for you is how much water is left in the pool?  How much have you splashed out?

Switching gears, I'm sure not all is lost and if hubby/SD22/you actually get an action plan filled out that would be a positive step forward.

While you are processing all this keep asking yourself how much water has been splashed out.  Perhaps even ask T about this.

Best,

FF

I get it LnL it is certainly the right decision for you if you do not feel safe and perhaps not the environment you expected despite the merits of the course, not right for you both. I see your joint decision as a positive step forwards! It'd place me in a position of supporting others, when what I'd really need where you are, is to support my DD. I thought the course was soley focused on suicide prevention, till you shared WRAP.

I'm interested in learning more with you about hopeful language. When DD fell into crisis, hope was everything, I signed my posts Hope and DD's new kitten she called Hope. There was no way I was losing my DD to her disorders and she's turned it around, she's climbing the hill  :wee: Therapists turn round helplessness with hope.

What a wiggly road it is, our challenge is to get us all working in the same direction, lovingly and with kindness  |iiii

Hope.

WDx  :heart:

I was moved by the hope language -- it had a big impact on me. Was I conveying it to H when I talked about SD22? I could do better.

H needs to hear hope, too, just like SD22 needs to hear it.

Me too.  :hug:

I believe you were conveying when you emotionally shared on holiday with H your hope, these are the feelings you expressed, they were overwhelming, you shared with us they took you by surprise, they were powerful and positive, they were full of hope and you connected with H.

As we know there is the balance of emotional and logic mind. I'm logic focused and I had to meet my DD's emotional space, lovingly. Are you and H both naturally logic focused?

WDx

Times a thousand  :(

Interesting...

Then wouldn't it be fairly easily to make a logical and rational argument that both of you need a consistent approach to danger?

And..if you identify an area of your life/lives where that is not happening, wouldn't that be a great place for more logic and thoughtfulness?

Best,

FF

LnL I received a nami newsletter today and I thought of you and H.  :hug: There is an article turning suicide ideation into hope and my parents shaped my recovery and much more. It is suicide prevention awareness month.

https://www.nami.org (https://www.nami.org)

WDx

I didn’t even know you guys were over here in another thread discussing things so relevant in my life. Thanks Wendy for pointing this out. I’ve looked into WRAP and learned about it thru “It Takes a Family” by Debra Jay. Her approach is adopted by most of the big hitters in the substance abuse world, like Betty Ford.  Sorry that the class didn’t work, LNL. You can absolutely create a WRAP with a T. Would SD be willing to do that?
They create something similar with any discharge from a psych ward.

Also, Wendy, I just read a few days ago about the 988 for suicide hotline-brilliant! NAMI does get some stuff right.

Seems like this part of the blog goes a bit more in-depth. I’ll stick around and learn from you all.

@wendy OMG thank you so much! I just read both the articles and went to the author's site and ordered greeting cards for those that struggle with mental illness.

Amazing resource and very glad to have found it.

This is my conundrum, PeaceMom. I started the thread over here because I'm the step mom, and given our blended family dynamics, I'm trying to figure out how to convey my concerns through H.

Would she do a WRAP with a T? I think so. But I can't call her T, and H has his own views on what's happening that differ from mine. He's her dad.

When I went to the class for those two days, it struck me that he is focused on what she's doing that's positive. I am focusing on the gaps. The gaps seem significant to me. Part of the problem, too, is that H deals with crisis all day long. So it's not like he doesn't understand crisis. How do you tell a very intelligent, super capable alpha male with three decades of crisis management that he has a blind spot when it comes to his kid?

The same kid who would like nothing better than to have me out of the picture? And the same kid who I spent three summers singling out for her odd behaviors? I am going into this with some mistakes hanging over my head. The more H turned down my volume, the louder I tried to speak. That's not a place with a ton of trust.

When I talked to my T, the same one who started ringing this bell, her feedback was to lay low for now because H's walls are up. Look for openings, and let things cool. He went to the class and we made a joint decision it wasn't quite the right fit. We now have resources and I am telling him what I'm reading, and he listens. I can get in about five paragraphs every third night or so and then we take a break and try to unwind.

Meanwhile, there is movement with S18 and getting him diagnosed for ASD. I don't discuss his issues as much here but he's a pretty big priority and I'm experiencing a version of what H is going through, where it's tough to allow someone else into this parent-child space when there has been trauma.

SD22 is an adult, she lives 5 hours from here, has a job, she is doing many pro-active things to take care of herself, she has two Ts and a psychiatrist, has a live-in BF, and her dad does do many positive things in supporting her. I can't lose sight of those positives, while also acknowledging that if this were someone else's child, H and I would be in full agreement that she needs a full work up and a re-diagnosis, not to mention a WRAP.

I'm regrouping with SD22, and trying to get S18 up and launched, sorting out his sensitive issues. My plan for now is to see what happens with us moving. If we do, I know there will be a crisis. H is pushing for the move, so if this gets serious, then I'm going to insist we have a safety plan in place before we announce the move. That's all I've got for now  :(

I think this is crucial, and may be the best way to get the plan done.

If walls are up, likely good to stop assaulting the walls.  Conserve strength and prepare.

All that being said, at some point (especially with move) he will have to let down the walls and engage.

At that point do not shy away from why you are focusing on the "gaps" (the negative)

Death is impossible to overcome

If he puts the walls back up..that's on him. 

It does nobody (him included) any good to ignore reality.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

worriedStepmom, I agree. H is most motivated when there's a lot of activity. I also think he's eager to move right now because he senses SD22 is relatively stable. I can't shake this feeling that he wants to get away before a shoe drops.


Exactly. I can see him arranging walls so that I agree to ignore this elephant. I'm not spending as much effort pointing the elephant out, but I'm also not ignoring it either. We're now at the stage where he agrees there is an elephant in the room, he just wants to pretend it isn't. And he wants me to pretend too. When he is unguarded, he is remarkably aware so I know he's thinking and paying attention. It's not easy to be cup half full and half empty at the same time.

I've printed out the crisis management form and filled in some of the items. He has a brutal week coming up so I'm laying low until things quiet down for him, and scheduling lots of fun things for us to do.

So..your hubby is in "crisis management" as a profession.   I would assume he is familiar and comfortable talking about "risk management" which is more accurate about what you need to do.

I would say crisis is when she is about to act.  Risk management is about handling/evaluating all of the things under the surface that might "move her" to act.

This is a bit of a stretch, but it's a very "unemotional process" and 5 step procedure for looking at "risk".

https://youtu.be/-YHBQAxY_NE

It would seem to me that anything you can do that enables discussion while keeping emotion low or out of it, is helpful for your cause.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

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