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Mod note: This thread is a continuation of the following thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340476.0

Here is my update from yesterday.

My daughter called me on my way home from work.  She said my W reached out to her late morning asking how I was.  My daughter didn't realize the date and that it was our anniversary and said I don't know, I haven't talked to her today.  Then she asked W how she was and she replied trying to keep busy at work and distract myself.  (My W often reaches out to other family members to have them check on me).

So before dinner I posted on social media a picture of my tattoo that that I got the day we got married and said "Thinking of you ...9 years <3".

Then I needed to pick up my son from the bus from soccer and as I was driving there, it's right near her house, I decided to stop and pick her up a single rose.  I went and put it in her mailbox.  When I left I sent her an invisible text, one that she didn't have to read unless she wanted to, that said "Check your mailbox".  She replied about an hour later...

W: I got it and I don't know what to say today.
Me: ((Hugs) I'm sure today was just as hard and emotional for you as it was/is for me.
W: Yeah
Me: I'm sorry.  I love you...and always will <3 <3 <3
W: That's helpful

I did not reply...then as I was going to bed I sent her and invisible message...

Me:  And tonight, just like every night since you have left.  I will kiss my hand, touch your pillow and say Goodnight Babe, I love you <3 <3 <3
W: Except on days I'm a liar and a cheat.

I did not reply.  Thoughts?

SH4

it was heavy, SH4. too much.

i dont want to kick you while youre down, whats done is done, and im not suggesting this ruined your chances or anything like that.

but this is very important to learn from.

her replies tell you two things.

1. shes not receptive to grand affectionate gestures like this. they feel like pressure. she doesnt know what to do with it.
2. shes still very resentful

Once Removed,

In the past, when she has left and I've sent her flowers or edible arraignments, she's never said thank you etc.  However, well afterwards she said me doing those things showed her I loved her even if she didn't want to admit I did at the time.  She's also said things like that won her back.  I didn't think a single rose in her mailbox was a grand gesture.  I didn't send a big arraignment to her work.  She would have been embarrassed about that.

SH4

Hey SH4,

You were right to stop when you did, you saw the tone change. Could you have stopped before, yes, we all have different views on this but what’s done is done. I personally don’t think it’s inappropriate to let her know you still have strong feelings, however, it would seem that at a point she turns those positive feelings in on herself and starts to beat herself up... that’s what I see in her last response (OR seems to see resentment). Her beating herself up is a less good outcome as it could well encourage her to retract more and build more barriers.

If you do something that gains small positive outcomes, like “that’s helpful” it might be wise to leave that thing and not to try and build on that...  for now. A deep foundation of small good outcomes.

Enabler

Enabler,

You and Once Removed both mentioned her being "resentful".  I'm not sure I understand.  Can you explain more?  Resentful about what?

Also, the "That Helps" I took as total sarcasm from her.  Remember she's told me multiple times to not tell her I love her that she doesn't want to hear it and doesn't believe it.

Thanks,
SH4

this is resentment.

Congratulations SH4! You survived the dreaded day. Survival is always to be celebrated :wee: Today is a new day, giving you the chance to do better and be better. What's done is done.  When all is said and done you have to deal what is real. The resentment is there. How do you feel about it? What are you going to do about it?

I'm not sure I understand.  She resents that I love her or she resents that she's cheated and has lied?

I REALLY don't understand the "resentment" piece can you guys please help me understand?  I can't decide how I feel about it if I don't understand WHY.  And at this point what can I even do about it?

im not sure that it matters. it reads to me like a dig, like "shove it". it reads to some of you like shes beating herself up. it could be either one or both.

above all, it demonstrates she was uncomfortable with the affection. her response was a way to break that up.


learn from it.

her immediate response "i dont know what to say" is a statement of discomfort. a signal to heed. before that, she said she didnt want (you) to acknowledge it at all. this was going pretty far to acknowledge it.

really listening and really hearing her remains a big part of the battle here.

i learned a lot about not over pursuing from my earlier relationships. i was the king of it. there was a girl that broke up with me, i was devastated and wanted to get back together. it was valentines day, and it had been around a month since wed broken up. we were still in contact, and i misread some signals from her. i left a white rose on her doorstep with a note that referenced a song we had in common.

i didnt hear from her for several hours. she didnt mention it, so i did. she told me she didnt know what to say. i dont remember what all i said. i think i mixed getting pissy with affectionate talk. i remember at one point she said "its not every day your ex boyfriend leaves a rose at your door". it was too much. it didnt read the situation. she didnt know what to do with it. and rather than see that and back off, i doubled down.

heres the thing. i think if you had ruined your chances, or anything like that, she would have done one of two things. she either would have gotten very angry at you, and let you have it, or she would have felt that it was important to make clear shes done. she didnt do either.

just learn from it. dial it back. over compensate for a few days by giving some space.

What OR said. Would you find it helpful to focus on making every interaction a conflict free one? If that means going no contact for a few days so much the better.
"There are three parts to radical acceptance.

~~The first part is accepting that reality is what it is.

~~The second part is accepting that the event or situation causing you pain has a cause. 

~~The third part is accepting life can be worth living even with painful events in it."
 :hug:

Got it.  I haven't reached out, nor has she, since that last exchange of messages Tuesday night at bed time.

It feels like she's trying to avoid everything about us, maybe in hopes that it will just go away.  You can't just erase 10 years and the family we have built.  Well I can't anyway, I guess she can.  This is what she does in relationships.  She completely walks away and usually moves far away from her x's.  I know she's in a 10 month lease, but that will end 8 months from today.  She's already mentioned moving to another state about 7 hours from here.  Avoiding it, isn't dealing with it.

SH4

i would not read into this as pathology. virtually anyone would have reacted in the way that she did...or worse. what she is doing is typical for someone who has taken steps to exit a relationship but has not made up their mind.

it is hard for you. you are coping in the way that you are coping. it is hard for her as well. shes coping in the way that shes coping.

each interaction is a clue as to where she is at. which way she is leaning.

you can play a role in that process. not necessarily change the outcome, but certainly affect it.

to do that you have to play your best card in each interaction yes, but to do that, you have to see the big picture.

Yes I understand, and like I said she's left 10 times before and told me if I didn't pursue her she would have never come back because she's never pursued anyone ever.  So if I leave it and don 't pursue her, will she think I don't want to be with her anymore.  If she doesn't want this or doesn't want me why doesn't she have the balls to just say it's over.  Why does she need to blame it on me.  I feel like I'm dealing with a child and not an adult that you can calmly talk to.  Like who just sits there watching tv one Saturday morning then loads the car up and goes moves into her new place.  I'm just at a loss.  None of this "process" she has done makes logical sense.  I have known plenty of people that have split up...they talk, they know one way or another.  Do I want this to work out, yes, but the more time that goes by I'm not sure it can.  Her coldness, it's almost inhuman to watch.  I feel so used and that it was all a lie.

SH4

it makes plenty of sense if you stand back from the pain and confusion and look at it objectively from 30000 feet up.

anyone in her position would have monumental difficulty deciding the direction that they want to take. even if they wanted to, they would feel the enormous pressure of splitting up their family, of many many years. no one tends to want to do that.

there are a whole lot of additional logs on that fire. she hasnt been happy. you havent been happy. the situation hasnt been happy.

shes gone outside the marriage a number of times. there is enormous guilt and shame there. and whether youve intended to or not, i am sure that at times you have reminded her of that, and that you resent it.

there was significant conflict in your marriage. there still is. in the big picture, nothing has really changed, except that space has made it less frequent...not nonexistent. in fact, theres plenty of conflict.

so what is the incentive to return to the relationship? what is going to change?

the only real incentive is to decrease the frequency and emotional level of communication. that, among many, many other things, needs to change, demonstrably, consistently, over time, to have any real effect.

in spite of that, she loves you and feels torn. she never wanted any of this. she may ultimately come to believe its for the best.


redefine what it means to pursue.

there are perfectly reasonable ways of showing love, and sending signals that you love her and want to reconcile.

in the past couple of days you went from "ill keep it really light, just wish her well or let her know im thinking of her" (which would have struck a balance) to romantic gestures and heavy lovey dovey words that she explicitly stated she did not want (and arent called for in the situation), and i say this gently SH4, but the result was predictable. it was too much. it happens, and the best thing when it does, is not to throw up your hands, but to learn from it. theres not a lot of margin for error here. everything counts extra.

i know youve read this. i encourage you to do it again, even if its for the 50th time: https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

Ah, acceptance is the hardest part. For me, BPD is like a ladder with the bottom rung missing. Your foot keeps expecting to find it and you don't.
Accept that there are ways in which you are going to have to be the adult. To keep myself in the game with beloved I have done things I never believed myself capable of. And am willing to do it over if I have to. This doesn't mean sacrificing pride and self respect, but only putting in the emotional work. Also deep self reflection because I felt  if I did not have it in me to be a superhero it would not be fair to recycle.

To clarify my stance, I thought your W sounded like she was beating herself up mentioning the negative things about her behaviour, maybe she believes that you don't love her when she does 'bad' things. Not to speak for you but I don't personally think my love for my wife can turn on and off like that. It's certainly not a case of "I love you when you do nice things" and "hate you when you do bad things"... life might be easier in many respects if I did think that way.

That all said and it's a bit academic, OR makes a good observation about your initial intent to be light, then moving towards grand gestures. Not to over analyse, I might have let the rose do the talking and left an air of mysticism without more explanation. The explanation and the post-chats are where the damage seems to stem from. I think the lesson here is to quit way way way earlier when you're ahead... tap the hammer rather than try to hammer the nail home. I believe this would be considerably more powerful.

Enabler

How?

Got it.  I'm still learning.


Here is an update from last night.  She texted my daughter and asked her to bring the kids by for Halloween.  I was with my daughter so when she stopped I stayed in the car.  W asked daughter where I was and she said in the car. I didn't want to go in and figured it would make her uncomfortable and she wanted me to she could have texted me to come in, which she didn't.   When my daughter came out she told me that my W had the rose on the table in a vase.  She pointed to it and said to my daughter...did you know about that.  My daughter said yes.  W said "I'm not sure why she dropped it off while I was here".  (mind you I put it in her mailbox...so she didn't see me and I texted her as soon as I left) Then she said "I was hoping to get thru the day without acknowledging it".

That's all.  I still haven't heard from her since that last text Tuesday night.

SH4

On the one hand it would seem that your actions put her under pressure, and maybe one could argue that your actions made her "think" too much about the relationship on a day she didn't want to even "acknowledge"... which she could have seen as forcing YOUR agenda. I don't believe that prompting her to acknowledge the day, even when she might not have wanted to, was an inconsiderate or unkind thing to do (she wasn't angry enough to bin the rose which would have been a perfectly common response if she didn't in some way appreciate it). I believe what could have been more successful would have been leaving the acknowledgement as a small gesture and leaving it at that. I dunno, I see it a little like a teenager who locks themselves in their room refusing to speak to their parents... only to come out and find a sandwich outside the door. Sometimes the sandwich gets eaten, sometimes it's chucked in the bin... but the sandwich is always there... nothing is said... no knock... it just turns up. 

Over the past few years I have acknowledged our wedding anniversary and valentines day by buying fancy patisserie cakes. I have 3 daughters so the cakes always get eaten. They are given to everyone in a general sense... my W doesn't respond in kind and I'm not sure she overtly appreciates it, but at the same time some little part of her sees the message and doesn't quite hate it either. It's a covert way of me saying "I'm still here, I'm not going away, this day is still important to me". I didn't do anything for our wedding anniversary this year and slightly regret not getting the cakes in. It felt like a missed opportunity to send a small message (appreciated or not).

Enabler 

This was my thought...she didn't toss it..I'll take it as a slight positive.

That's really nice that you do that and still honor the day in a small way.  What was the reason you didn't do it this year?  How many years have you been apart?

SH4

It all kicked off in Sep 2016. I still live in the family home with W and kids... she'd rather I wasn't.

There wasn't a specific reason why I didn't this year. I think part of me was letting go and part of me was engrossed in working out what was going on around the time and the day just drifted past unmarked by either of us. It's a shame but I wont deny I am fatigued by keeping up the fight for this long.

I won't pretend this route is easy and hope I've never given you that impression.

Enabler

Wow... 3 solid years.  That must be very difficult every day?  You must be a very strong person to be able to endure that.  ((HUGS)

Is it strength or is it my coping mechanism for my weakness?

If it's strength I'm sure we all have that strength in us somewhere.

Have you noticed yourself being hurt less and less by things that once would have destroyed you? Why do you think that is? I gain strength from understanding and try and steer away from contempt (contempt can be very empowering and make you feel less hurt, BUT, it comes at a cost as contempt builds walls). Understanding however allows you to be vulnerable whilst avoiding excessive pain.

 Enabler

Yes I do find myself being hurt less by things that would have destroyed me.  It's almost like I've been hurt so much that she can't even hurt me any more...is it understanding, I'm not sure that it is, because I don't understand how she can walk away from her entire family and sleep with people etc (maybe because I would never be capable of such a thing).  It's more like acceptance that this is who she is and will never change and I'm sad for her that she can let her emotions take her to such a horrible place that she feels the needs to escape and shut down on her wife and kids and that she WANTS to start a new life without us.

SH4

youve made it clear, consistently, that your desire is not to break up/divorce and to get back together. it isnt lost on her. she knows this was her decision, not yours.

think about the things that shes doing. showing up at the soccer game. asking others about how youre doing. things that while, they arent necessarily moves to reconcile, they show that she still cares.

well, beloved dysregulated yesterday. I validated what I could, and for the rest focused on being supportive and murmuring soothing noises. Sneaked in two "I love you"s too :) It worked, we ended on a calm note. Much had been communicated and now I know better what she needs. And I did not compromise on the boundary which triggered in the first place.

It wasn't easy, one thing we nons don't talk about much is the PTSD we go through being subjected to full blown rages.  I wonder sometimes if the little 'mistakes' we make, our failures in tolerance, is not our subconscious trying to get us out of situation that on some level is harmful to us. Have done my best to lift it out of the subconscious and process it consciously, but can one ever really be sure?

I guess what I'm saying is that it is not so much about strength but about exercising the compassion muscle. Silly analogy but it may be like any other muscle, the harder we work it the more it is capable of.

I'm having doubts that she still cares.  Honestly, I think she does it because she feels pressure from other people not to look like an A hole.  She's said it in the past.  I've watched her do it for other things saying "I really don't want to go to this but if I don't everyone will think I'm an A hole."  So yes, I think her completely walking away from her family and having no contact she's looking like an A hole.

khibomsis,

That sounds like a win for you!   |iiii


Weekend update:  I really have nothing.  She made zero contact with me.  Based on her social media she was busy out with friends a lot all weekend.  I've not spoke to her since that nice conversation last Sunday for 30 minutes after I dropped the dog off.  And then those few texts Tuesday night on our Anniversary.  No pics of the dog, no updates, no nothing.  She has not texted my older son at all since before she left.  She only texted my younger one the day after he broke his elbow.  She does text my daughter and stopped by her house with donuts she had made for her kids yesterday, but didn't stay and visit literally just dropped them off because she had to get home to do school work apparently.  I know what will happen if I say, you haven't reached out..it will be a fight and she will say you haven't reached out to me either.  Yes you are right because you told me not to and since the day you moved out in August I haven't pressured you and have only reached out in response to you reaching out.

Her birthday is next week.  Not sure what to do, if anything at all.  Thoughts?

SH4

*mod*

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 3 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340694.msg13085177#msg13085177

Thank you