BPDFamily.com

I think that’s where I struggle. How do I answer those questions without being dishonest yet maintaining this lack of ownership stance. If I decided I wanted a divorce I would own it.

Flip this thing around.

What happens when there is silence?  People then look to the other information they have as well as their predispositions and try to make the best sense of things they can.

On relatively unimportant things...it probably doesn't matter that much. 

On important matters..would it be better to be explicit...rather than leave undeveloped minds (children) to do their best to find implicit meaning...especially when one parent is explicitly delivering an untrue/inaccurate message.


Best,

FF

My d15 has been in therapy for a few months, and recently, she and her therapist talked about whether or not the divorce is happening. That brought up questions about the possibility of h returning to our home; one of the things that therapist asked d15 is whether I might still want h to come back. I decided that it was okay to explain some of the details of why there hasn't been forward progress on my part; I still haven't told d15 that it wasn't my idea or my desire to get a divorce.

How about

 “Our marriage is no longer working the way it should be working, so we are going to get a divorce.”  “We both love you very much and this decision has NOTHING to do with you.  You are wonderful and good children and you did NOTHING wrong.  Daddy and mummy will work together to make sure you always feel safe, you’ll have the same friends, same school, same daddy and mummy - ALWAYS.  We know change can feel scary sometimes, but not all changes are bad.  Sometimes changes can be good and people can feel happier.  You children are the MOST important people in the world to both of us and always will be.”

Thoughts?

Gemsforeyes

That's the troublesome part for me and I suspect for parents that want to be explicit about passing on values to their children.

Enabler.  Do you want to pass on the value to your children that when your marriage no longer works the way it should they should get a divorce?

Best,

FF

FF -

What I’m trying to communicate in not that I agree with the ultimate choice about divorcing or not when the going gets tough.., but that Enabler’s W is insisting that divorce is the ONLY choice.  And therefore how to present this to their children.

I discussed Enabler’s honesty regarding his values earlier in this thread and that approach was not good, so I’m trying a completely “neutral” approach.

If a conversation with the children over the “fact” of divorce must take place, how do parents do this without placing blame, even if there IS blame to place?  That’s the sticky wicket.

I don’t know.  I’m unsure that anyone KNOWS.  It’s unclear whether this can actually be done where ANYONE leaves the conversation feeling “good”, or even okay.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

That is not a value I hold nor is a value I wish to pass down to my children.

I believe my children would struggle to cognitise or agree that divorce was the ONLY option.

Gems, your suggestions are great and you've tried super hard to get there... but my sense is that there is no way for a decision to be made, a decision to be communicated truthfully yet no one take ownership for that decision. A value I do hold is that I believe it is important to be accountable for our choices. I'm accountable at work, I'm accountable at home, I'm accountable in the car, I'm accountable on the football pitch... why do we suddenly stop being accountable when telling children we're about to markedly impact their lives, and actually their future?

Enabler

In the co-dependency 12 step groups we worked on using "I" statements. Perhaps this would help. Rather than saying "your mother wants this and I don't" - maybe speaking from your own feelings without implicating her would help.

"I feel sad that we have arrived at this decision".

You may not have wanted this- but if this is where you are- then you can discuss this. Every relationship takes two people. Sometimes it isn't about what we want, or getting what we want, but not being able to agree. It takes two people to be married and if one wants to leave, then the two of you are in this situation together.

There's a wide range between dissolving a marriage at the first bit of trouble and dissolving a marriage when one has spent time working at it. Of course I wouldn't want my children to get the idea that it's OK to split when things get difficult but on the other hand, I would not want them to persist in a situation where repair isn't possible and after trying to the extent they could. If one person absolutely does not want to be married, I don't see how we can make them want to be. If one person is in love with someone else and has made steps to leave- the marriage may not be repairable.

But at this point, your kids are way too young to understand all that goes into marriage. I shared my story about "advising" my mother because from my viewpoint, it looked simple. I framed it from where I was at developmentally.

But if my parents had split - I would have known it wasn't at the first sign of trouble. I saw their arguments, saw the tears, I knew it wasn't an easy situation. I think your kids have seen plenty to realize this has been going on a long time.

I think people who are co-dependent are uncomfortable when others are upset with them. They want to fix other people's feelings, smooth them over. You don't want your kids upset with you or blaming you. But maybe they will anyway. They are kids and kids don't see the whole situation from an adult standpoint.

Saying your wife wants the divorce and you don't- makes you blameless- directs the kids' upset about a divorce to your wife. It makes you the innocent victim of this situation. Well you didn't want it and you didn't do anything to pursue it- your hands are clean. But really? Marriage is more complicated than that. There is no good guy or bad guy in this- it's two people doing the best they could with the relationship tools they have in a marriage - and if it didn't work to keep them together, then this is where you are at.

So what do you say?

Not that the marriage isn't working but how about. " We have both tried our best but that didn't work". "It make me sad to tell you this but your mother and I are going to get a divorce" Then let them have their feelings. Maybe they will get angry at you, maybe even blame you. They are kids- they feel what they feel. But kids grow up too and by the time they are ready to get married, they will see a different picture. All the while they will see your values too.

Really the crux of this.

Best,

FF

I could live with the second statement but not the first... the first statement could be replaced with "I have tried my best", I will not speak for my W.

The issue with this wording is that "we" didn't arrive at this decision.  The decision is being imposed on Enabler due to his wife abrogating her wedding vows.

Enabler wife votes divorce.

Enabler votes marriage.

Divorce will happen, yet "we" didn't decide on it.

Best,

FF

I think it’s splitting hairs on the “we”. Only enablers wife might want the divorce - making choices hard but still - the choice to accept that she wants to go is Enablers - so they - or we have arrived at this point.

Accepting that the other person does not want to be married and is in love with someone else is a decision.

Imagine if the kids then said “ gee Dad it’s about time you caught on - we know mom has a boyfriend”

That’s stretching this but they know something is going on and that having a boyfriend or girlfriend when married isn’t ok.

You may not feel you own much of the deterioration of the marriage but it takes two. I agree with being honest but own what you can.

Enabler..have you accepted this?  Do you agree with this?  Is there a difference in accept and agree?

Best,

FF

Is there a difference between accept and agree?

Also - accepting a fact, or a situation is not the same as it being acceptable to you.

Your wife's decision isn't acceptable to you, but the situation, the facts- if she wants to leave - then you can choose to accept this fact. Regardless of if you do or don't accept it- if she wants to leave- then she does. How you feel about it doesn't change that.

Every relationship involves two people. You have tried to be the blameless one here. You aren't to blame for her decisions, but you are both responsible in a way for the relationship.

If all you can own is accepting the facts, then own that. "I am sad that we have arrived at this situation, but we are getting a divorce".

Let the kids ask questions. If she lies, you can clear this up later. Surely the kids will be having some strong feelings in the moment- focus on them.

Exactly!  Teaching our kids what we find acceptable is a big part of passing on our values...our version of right and wrong. 

I suppose I would be ok with "I've accepted a divorce is going to happen, even though I don't think it's an acceptable choice."

That's full of "I" statements, so saying this and then pivoting to focus on their feelings and questions.

Best,

FF

Enabler, we all want the best for your family - know that that is the top motivation for every one posting in this thread.. There are some different opinions being expressed and they are the both sides of the argument.


I assume some of your children believe in Santa Clause and some don't or are of the age to be questioning him or know it was a child's story.

How are you/will you handle this elaborate lie and deception?  If Santa doesn't exist, how do explain the baby Jesus part - how is that true and Santa was a lie?  When the oldest first questioned Santa's existence  - did you immediately come clean? Did you and your wife take equal blame or did one evoke the moral high ground and say they didn't want to lie but the other parent did? When the oldest knows, will/did you try to keep the lie and deception going? Did or will you/will you ask the oldest to co-conspire in the lie to the younger children?

Lastly, how would your child deal with it if one parent insisted that Santa is alive and the other insisted he was lie?


So if you go down this path, let's examine the outcomes?

You tell the kids there is a divorce. Most likely there immediate reaction will be terror? They will say please don't, please fix this, don't leave me. And your response will be, I agree, it's your mom who wants this. All the hysteria is turned on her (see already feels immense guilt for doing this to them). The kids are uncontrollably crying and one refuses to let her touch them for a while?

And for the hardest question... deep down, does part of you want to see play out? Infidelity of the ultimate betrayal, a mortal sin? How much of this thinking is driven by revenge and resentment or hope of kicking some sense into her?

I'm not accusing you or implying anything? I have no judgement Enabler - I'm just here to help. I'm just asking you to test yourself.

Now your wife...

Will she be OK with this - ever?  Threatening a mothers relationship with her children can draw a huge response. Will she need to destroy their opinion of you to restore her relationship with them? What will she do? At the time? In the next week? In the year after?

Now your kids... How will they deal with the need to chose one truth over another? Accept that one parent lies and is OK to harm them and one is good?

It's difficult for kids to comprehend a "no fault divorce" - it's much harder to deal with a divorce and learning a parent means them harm.

Do you want a high conflict divorce? Is the price of assigning responsibility worth it? Not a rhetorical question - yes or no are real and acceptable answers.

Remember. Your wife is vulnerable. You can take this shot.  There will be a time when you are vulnerable (like when you move out of the house) and she will likely have little reservation to take that shot - everyone will say she is justifed.

She may take that shot no matter what.

Or she may not, no matter what is said. 

Perhaps an underlying question is how much/how far do we go to reduce chances that a disordered person will do disordered things.

That line likely looks different for all of us and in varying situations.

Perhaps another way to look at it.

Do we make life decisions based on what someone else may do?

Do we make life decisions based on our values (who we are) and let the chips fall where they may?

Obviously there is a spectrum in between those two poles.

Best,

FF

Wow, what a thoughtful discussion! I find it really helpful to have things broken down in this way.
Enabler, if I may contribute from the perspective of growing up in a BPD FOO: My father was the closest thing I had to a stable and sane adult in my life, I loved him deeply and am convinced I would have been broken beyond repair if he had not stuck around. He was heavily co-dependent though, and had multiple affairs in a bid to get my supremely narcissistic mother's attention. This also absented him from home often and left her free to practice not just rage but also an extreme emotional incest where she would talk at me for hours about what he was doing and with whom. I ended up praying every night that they would get a divorce but sadly for my younger self they never did. Now that he is gone I can see the love that kept him there all those years and honour it. Not a day goes by without I miss him.
But so my experience is from the perspective of the child
1. Better a peaceful divorce than a messy marriage. What has resonance with me are Skip's comments that the absolutely worst scenario is a messy conflictual divorce and that you have to be mindful of this danger
2. That you have to be sane and stable is ultimately what is going to matter most to your kids. One off the rails parent they can handle. Two and they don't stand a chance. So whatever you have to do to preserve that sanity must come first. Obviously not living in accordance with your values is going to not be good for you. I guess here is where you role-model how to overcome adversity under very difficult circumstances.  There must be many other sanity-making things that you can do besides being honest about the end of the marriage. Maybe make them a priority and be as gentle as you can about the truth?
Am rooting for you and pray it goes well.  Your kids are lucky to have you.

Thanks Skip, you gave me a lot to consider on my journey in this morning.

Santa - the best example I have of this is the tooth fairy. D9 cottoned on in the last year or so that I was delivering the £1 and removing the teeth. I did not confirm nor deny other than a grin I couldn't hide from her. She was like the cat that had got the cream and the next tooth that fell out she'd say "I'll just take a £1 from your wallet shall I?" She knows she's right, I know she's right yet nothing has been overtly said until there was no shadow of delusion that we both knew we knew. So, in essence I did not deny her reality, she worked it out for herself. I did ask her to not spoil the fantasy for D6.

So how does this relate to my options around telling the kids? I like to set out my thoughts here in Fantasy (What we believe is the truth), Reality (what we should reasonably believe is the truth given the information and experiences we've had) and the Truth (what is actually the case, comprising everyone's reality and the facts... likely no one knows the Truth). My kids fantasy and reality are pretty close together (I don't believe they are delusional) however, their reality and the truth are markedly far apart. I don't believe it is okay to artificially keep someones reality from the truth (maybe with the exception of human flourishing), in essence this is manipulation via deceit. So in the case of the tooth fairy, yes as a parent I promoted a false reality that the tooth fairy existed (why do we do this?), however, when my D9 established the truth, I made no attempt to prop up the delusion and keep her reality and the truth from naturally merging. In the case of the D, I believe my children know enough such that telling them that 'this' is a joint decision would be artificially pulling their reality and the truth apart, and not necessarily for their flourishing. The outcome for them will be exactly the same, yet their reality will make far more sense to them as it will be closer to the truth.

My W - I agree that my W likely feels a lot of guilt about what she is doing. I am sure that even the most heavily abused victim feels some elements of guilt about leaving an abusive partner, however, those same people are likely to have weighed up the balance of staying and leaving for some time and accepted that the choice to leave is not just marginal, but necessary and will likely result in their and the kids human flourishing. So really, what would my W be guilty of, given we should assume that she has weighed up the pros and cons of staying or leaving and concluded that leaving was necessary for everyone's human flourishing. I suspect however she feels guilty because she knows that she is selfishly motivated and unilaterally destroyed what relationship we did have to further her delusion that she is abused and she is a victim of me... the oppressor, to justify an affair which she has been told by numerous outside counsel is immoral and inappropriate. Maybe I am wrong, but if she had no glimmer of doubt that I was abusive to both her and the children she would have used the £66k that she has sole access to, to move out and get away from me... is that not the rational response to a threat? So, what am I asking her to do by suggesting she owns the decision to divorce? I'm asking her to tell the kids how brave she is and actually how much she cares about them that she is willing to do this for them and her... because net net this is supposed to be additive to their human flourishing... right? I am not seeking to blame her, I am seeking to make her accountable for her choices.

If the children were to ask me after the news to fix it, I will say that we have to respect the decision that Mummy has made, that I am not abandoning them and will be there for them as much as humanly possible, have a home large enough to accommodate all of them where they will be welcome as much as practically possible, and they will believe me, because I haven't lied to them, and I have delivered what I have said I would deliver... THEN I WILL SHOW THEM...


Infidelity is the ultimate betrayal, you're correct. I think it's such a betrayal because the victim loses all grasp in their reality. A one night stand shatters the delusion that your partner is faithful and brings into question whether or not there have been other instances, a long protracted affair not only brings the afore mentioned thoughts but also your partners ability to deceive you for an extended period of time. I have literally questioned every single element of my life which I could not see with my own eyes... hence I now journal. I have considered smashing the guys head in with a brick when I knew from "find my phone" that they were parked up in the car park 100m from our home late on a Sunday evening... I got over that fortunately. I have considered all manner of vengeful acts (mainly against him I'll admit)... but I got over them fortunately. So, I don't want revenge, I'm not even sure what revenge would really do for me in the long term. Revenge isn't going to answer all the questions I have, it's not going to cement together the floating pieces of my reality I have from the last 23 years, I've had to accept that that time was probably fantasy more than truth and I've already grieved for that.

This is about not repeating the same recipe as before, where lies are told, lies are believed and other peoples reality is distorted. It's not that I want to hurt my W, it's that I don't want to protect her from the hurt that is likely rightfully hers... similarly, if I'm totally wrong about this all, if I have everything upside down and have gone to such extreme cognitive lengths to disguise my own heinous self, I don't want to protect myself from the truth either. From what I can see there is only one beneficiary to my W not owning this choice... my W. The same person that has benefited from me not knowing the truth for the last 23 years, the same person that spins everything with deceit such that the kids feel guilty for questioning her, the same person that benefits from operating in the shadows. The same person that has a massive sensitivity to guilt and shame. I was watching a film the other day and loved this quote:



Now this debate is not strictly about Privacy or Secrecy in it's purist form... but then again it is.

Enabler

My thought is that if you are taking a perspective that... life and relationships are things that are... “done unto me,” that will set a tone in their lives. 

It is fair to always redirect the kids away from all language that could be considered by the kids or the w as incriminating/blaming/alienating her in some way, even the possibility of her or kids perceiving it.

The fact is that two parties are responsible for maintaining the health, integrity of the relationship.  It did not happen as either of you hoped when you both said “I do.”  Plain and simple.

Imo, the rest of this “need” to speak in singular language about a relationship you both have ownership in if only your ownership is getting married as a couple... is still a level of ownership to own... have the kids really been hounding you on which parent is responsible for the desolution?  I doubt they “need” to have this conversation.  I would focus instead on what they need...
To stay out of adult matters
To know they are loved
To feel that at least one parent is very supportive of their loving the other parent...  because unless she is abusing the kids and you are fighting for sole custody without visitations then the focus should be on fostering their relationship with the other parent. 
To know that you can speak about the divorce some and allow the focus to NOT be on any personal matters between you and w but on the kids life, pragmatics, what they need and how they will get their needs for both parents to be in their loves met.

I am not convinced anyone “needs” to focus on this issue of Enablers of conveying to kids just who set the divorce in motion, or who did not. 

Your values can be passed on by maintaining your focus on how you wish things would be...
When your mom and I got married... marriage is supposed to last forever... that is how we both intended this... however, unfortunately... your mom and I have difficulties that are making this not possible...  but what you kids really need to know is that we both love you...

Who needs desperately to hear who is moving the divorce through? 

I would be cautious about taking a victim stance as it sets a foundation for a dynamic of ongoing drama triangle with the kids.  ...an easy way for them to find a role on a point of that triangle if they perceive a perp and a victim, what role is left for a kid to take? 

I second the concern about victim stance. This isn't being done unto you. It probably has little to do about you. Your wife wants what she wants. Her motive is less about you than that.

You may not have many choices, or good choices here. Perhaps the only choices you have are how you are going to go about this- but these are choices. Victims don't have choices. Taking victim perspective keeps you from seeing your choices.

My father would speak to us in victim perspective when my mother wanted something he disagreed with. He would say things like "mother won't let me give you money for college". But who earned the money? Who brought the paycheck home? This isn't the same as divorce, but it is managing my upset reaction by pointing out who's idea this is. He doesn't look like the bad guy here. My feelings didn't get addressed- the feeling of disappointment in the moment. The focus was on my mother ( triangle) not between the two of us.

Your kids will get upset with the news. The main issue is them. Shifting the blame to your wife takes the focus off their feelings and directs it to her. Another choice is to listen, console, "I know this is scary to you" and let them be upset and help them manage their own feelings.

For years, I saw my father as a victim of my mother's decisions. It was only when I had to work on my own co-dependency that I could see the effects of his co-dependency and enabling behavior on the relationship. I had to look at my part in the issues in my marriage due to co-dependency.  Yes, infidelity is awful. BPD behaviors are awful. But co-dependent behaviors are at heart- self seeking and controlling.

Is your wish for your wife to be the bad guy ( and you the good guy) greater than the larger picture- your kids, their relationship with their mother?  The two of you can divorce and no longer be husband and wife. But the kids don't "divorce" their mother. They can't possibly comprehend the nuances in relationships right now. What they hear will be filtered by their capacity to understand.

I think we've all experienced this in some ways. I loved rock music as a kid and still do- but when I hear an old song and the words sometimes I get that "oh that's what the song means" but didn't have a clue when I heard it as a kid.

Some things we don't need to know. At a family get together we were discussing a deceased relative who had gotten divorced. The kids were realizing it is possible that something was going on before the divorce- there were signs but they didn't comprehend them then-they do now. But we won't ever know and does it matter? There was so much more to this person to remember them by.

I suspect my own mother may have cheated. There were signs that it may have happened. But I don't know for sure- and I don't think I need to know.

And as co-dependent as my father was, he was also the most stable person of the two. I also attribute our well being to him. I can also accept that he was human- and wasn't perfect- but he still was a great parent in ways and an awesome grandparent.

We all make mistakes as parents at time. Consistent and unconditional love goes a long way. As children your kids can only comprehend so much. They will probably figure out some of the situation later one. But they aren't the ones who were cheated on. It may matter less to them than it does you.

I hope I haven't given people the wrong impression about how I position myself. I don't perceive myself as a victim, I know that I have choices, easy choices like moving out. I have chosen (after consideration) rightly or wrongly to stick around. I know that choice might add in some ways to the weird feeling in the home, but I also know that there are significant positives in being there as well... on balance I believe it to be the right choice. That is my choice and I am accountable for that choice. One day my kids may well turn round to me and say "Dad, why didn't you just move out, we hated those 3 years of you being around, it would have been so much better if you'd have just left." I'll own that now and I'll own that in 20yrs time when they've gone to therapy about their childhoods.

I agree it likely has little to do with Enabler.  I also disagree this isn't being "done to" Enabler.

Most often I remind people life really is more complicated than dichotomous choices...and I really believe that.

In this instance this actually is a dichotomous choice (yes or no to the marriage).  Enabler votes yes, his wife appears to vote no (we'll see if she actually goes through with it).

If she does...it will have been done to Enabler.  I'm not seeing a factual way to get around that.

If the point is to not "act" like a victim, that's likely wise advice. 

Perhaps a good way to think about this discussion is to help Enabler think through all the permutations that could come up, to minimize chances of dear in the headlights, should a very important conversation come to pass with his children/family.


Best,

FF

Let me toss this in the mix. Sometimes its helps to see our thread inventory to see how we have evolved in time. Having a case history is really helpful. The list is oldest first.

The  bpdfamily mirror:

20 Years a lie... or so I'm starting to believe (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=312557)
Wedding Anniversary Card/Gift? Yes or No? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=314531)
Diagnosis interview - how is it not a waste of time? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=314664)
3 Dimensional Reality (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=315186)
Inability to self reflect (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=315663)
Ouroboros (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316697)
Abandonment Fears / Rejection Sensitivity - Projecting those feelings (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316778)
Death by a thousand cuts (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=317412)
Has anyone been the subject of NC/LC? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=317739)
Passing on the love (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=317903)
Abandonment fears - is she aware and learning avoidance to cope (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=318121)
Should I show the BS card? Confusing messages around divorce (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=319073)
The Chat -  She's scared of me (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=319673)
For those who thought they should have known years ago... (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=320059)
The Chat 2  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321352)
She filed for divorce (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=323482)
Wife's Other Man contacts me with 8 Page letter (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=323654)
Should I be pleased or sad that I can understand how this happened? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=325366)
confused, regretful, humiliated a bit anxious. who’s got issues? Me or her? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326109)
Invalidating her by just breathing (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326109)
Enabler off the pitch till next week (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326470)
Matthew 8:23-27 [Christian Discussion] (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326890)
Selfish or Survival (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326944)
In_Over_My_Head (DV)  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327006)
Building anxiety (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327465)
Trying to understand why my wife has filed the application for Decree Nisi (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=328283)
Fixing an overwrite (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=328286)
PART 2 Trying to understand why my wife has filed the application for Decree Nisi (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=328997)
The curse of entitlement (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329594)
The path was longer than I'd hoped (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=330600)
Confusing 'No Contact' with Silent Treatment (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=330840)
Sorry for stepping back - feel a bit empty and lost (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=330999)
Wife claims our daughter is Autistic... the other daughter this time (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=332785)
Leave behind, Retain & Develop (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=332898)
Shield vs Walls (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=333637)
Things took a turn for the better. (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=333818)
Letter I wanted to send but didn't  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334193)
She has been advised by clergy to distance herself from her affair partner (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334261)
I can't change her feelings but I can create a gradient that slopes toward me (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334375)
AskingWhy - Critique of my approach (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=335808)
Naturally unreasonable  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336707)
Not sure I want to post this publicly - Found another receipt for pregnancy test (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337595)
Interesting lie'fest yesterday...  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338097)
I wouldn't minimise the physical impacts stress and anxiety can have on us (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338273)
Parentification of an adult... if that's a thing (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339046)
Part 2 Parentification of an adult... if that's a thing (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339139)
Part 3:Parentification of an adult... if that's a thing (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339161)
She is taking more than her share of family resources (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339268)
Friends playing rescuer (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339287)
Part 2 Friends playing rescuer (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339322)
I wouldn't want my daughter married to an adulterer  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339773)
I so wanted a bit of what everyone else got.? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339885)
Can't quite put my finger on it (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340662)
Can't quite put my finger on it  - Part 2 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340745)
Can't quite put my finger on it  - Part 3 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340788)

I see a pretty continuous thread of objectives and plans to achieve those objectives. I have failed on some of them like increasing my social life, but on others I've stuck to a plan. Could the outcome of me implementing that plan be the outcomes I am now experiencing? Yes, likely. My plan to some extent was reliant on not enabling a divorce and one of the outcomes of this is that the divorce has taken much much longer than anticipated I think would be reasonable. But at the same time, part of the plan was to buy time knowing that not enabling would result in characteristic procrastination... my hope was that she would have a eurika moment in this time. That was wishful thinking (that said, if she had have had a eurika moment I'd be chairing myself round the room for being wise... good old confirmation bias).

What do others see?

I don't think it is wishful thinking.  I think it was the best play you could make to delay the end of your marriage AND give the best (most) chances for disordered people to sabotage their own plans.

Here is the thing.  What if OM ends up with someone else?  What if ?

Best,

FF

Perhaps, the discussion is focusing too much on a single event and needs to expand out and to look at  the bigger scheme of things...

This is one of those very difficult, can't go forward and can't go back families - something that is in common with many "conflicted" members.

Perhaps we look at the bigger issue. Is this about a women in two love triangles (OM and Enabler, OM and Kid's unit) that she can't resolve? Or where unresolved is better than resolved?

She would chose OM over Enabler. She would chose Kid's unit over OM. Not choosing has benefits over choosing. She can live in both worlds with two men supporting her needs. One for love and companionship. One for child rearing.

(https://chairish-prod.freetls.fastly.net/image/product/sized/9386641f-2f9b-4aed-9b1e-cf808739b779/french-rustic-modern-three-legged-stool-in-pine-wood-5479?aspect=fit&width=640&height=640)

This is often the cases in affairs. Each relationship provides something the other doesn't and can't stand on it's own and the affair center (Enabler's wife) is going to ride the two rather than go to either of the "lessor worlds". Each man holds on with hope for unity. This ends when one of the men forces the issue or one of the legs of the stool breaks (e.g., the kids get older, the OM or Enabler threatens the status quo).

Enabler, as I look through your history, it seems to me that you are in fact, the enabler of the status quo / environment that allows you to be treated so poorly.

Is the status quo in the best interest of the children might be a topic to explore?

Is this family unit unhealthy for children (preadolescent)? Will this family unit be even more unhealthy for adolescent children who will start imprinting the parental model of love and relationships?

Is it better to exit the triangle with grace and confidence and force her to chose and accept that as "the it is meant to be"? Is this in the best interest of the children?

I know this post is a bucket of ice water.  :(  I don't want to hurt you. There is already too much hurt in your world.

Yes Skip, nice summary. I don’t disagree with the vast majority of what you have written.

From a package perspective I know I’m not the full tool box. Emotionally I was very invalidating, If I didnt agree  with her irrational thought i would tell her, I’m not exciting, i’m a steady Eddie, I don’t change my course, I’m not a dreamer, I don’t extrapolate out my faith into things I haven’t been taught, I just don’t see the world the way she does... the OM although I wouldn’t suggest he is much different from me, enables that part of my W. He feeds her unrealistic dreams, he feeds her unrealistic fears, he’s helped her achieve her dreams ignorant of the impact those dreams have had on the people around her. I totally appreciate her attraction to him. I even appreciate her anger towards me. I believe she not only hates me because of her perception of abuse, but also because I have stopped her from being with OM by my very presence. Maybe she even believes I’ve poisoned her future chances of being with him!

With regards to the stool, if I’m one of the legs then there’s a rat nibbling at my feet, she’s nibbling at me, each stage of the divorce makes the stool more and more lopsided. Each time I stand strong and confront her behaviour or force her to follow a process of the divorce I remove another bit of myself as the stool leg. When I push the telling the kids issue or push to arrange a meeting with a family therapist to discuss telling the kids with a professional, when I do the financial work required for the divorce it removes more and more of me. I believe her friends (advisors) aren’t aware of the affair, they advise her to push forward with the divorce process “for her sanity”, she complies, this requires removing more of the leg (me)... my involvement in the triangle is becoming less and less and less by her own choices.

BUT... her choices have eroded the very stool leg that her very stability is reliant on. NOT ME. I am not a victim, but I have also made myself accountable for my involvement in the relationship troubles. The divorce IS NOT my fault nor is it my choice... and why is it important for me to be blameless for the divorce? Because I put the probability of her blaming me for the divorce at some point in the future as VERY high, and she will find NO evidence for that.

If I have the emotional and psychological strength to endure her attempts to  “treat me  poorly” yet with tools and understanding not be eroded, should I not do that? I know I deserve happiness and actually amongst the chaos I’m able to achieve an enormous amount of inner peace and happiness in almost every facet of my life bar my relationship with her. She doesn’t deserve me standing strong for her, she really doesn’t.

Regarding the children, is it better that they experience an adult teaching them about functional behaviour albeit not in a functional relationship 365 days of the year, or for me to show them what a functioning relationship looks like every other weekend... assuming I even seek another relationship?

Keep chucking the cold water Skip, I can take whatever you want to chuck.

Enabler

I might say, "maybe a little". She is no where near close the life of a regular single mom. In the single mom world, she has the equivalent of a houseboy/nanny who pays to work for her.
Maybe:
 :check: Confirmation Bias
 :check: In-Group Bias
...maybe


Maybe:
 :check: The Sunk Cost Fallacy
...maybe


Is this a rhetorical question in your mind, Enabler, or one you are actively pondering. If it's "a given", I'd encourage you to give yourself a clean slate to radically let go of the past thinking, cast of the heavy layers of past rationalizations and justifications, so you can truly rethink it and see where that takes you.

So often times it happens that we live our lives in chains And we never even know we have the key ~ Don Henley

Our our four-point mission here are two

1. Preserve the Family We are about preserving families. The more marriages repaired, the more mother/child relationships reconnected, the more children we help grow up in a loving home, the better. 2. Healthier Healing of Failed Relationships Relationship failure is also a reality. People with personality disorders have inherently instable relationship skills that both attract and overwhelm those who love them. When failure happens, we help one another recover in an emotionally mature way. This includes grieving, detaching, and developing the skills necessary to have a more rewarding life, a less traumatic custody battle, a less resentful co-parenting relationship, or a less costly divorce. https://bpdfamily.com/about

How do we know when we are in #1 or #2?  What are the metrics? The indices? I ask this of everyone participating here...

When is it over? When is in no-longer healthy for the children? When is it closing in on terminally destroying our future?

agree she is nowhere near being a single mum and she’s hardly scratched the surface of starting to own that responsibility, in fact I’ll admit that in an attempt to control things like finances I likely do more domestic tasks as she keeps abandoning domestic tasks in favour of adopting  spiritually fulfilling  ’hobbies’. Even with this shift of home work to me, she struggles to balance the limited chores and child management she does have with all the other distractions she’s onboarded. So yes I’m still a very strong stool leg there. That said, we inch closer to divorce and I’m still forcing fantasy and reality together as is she. Maybe a better analogy is that she’s standing on the stool whilst sawing off one of the legs. When I’m cut out she’s likely to have a hell of a shock when she hits the earth... but is it my job to warn her of this fall? No?

I don’t get your point about sunk cost fallacy. I value continuation of narrative for starters (I’m sure as hell sure the  kids do as well). Simple things like the travelling we have done together, what value are those memories with another partner... “remember when we watched the Moreno Glacier carving?... oh no, that way W#1” To say that because I have invested almost 3 years persevering means that I should or shouldn’t cut now I don’t think is really in my consideration. I actually see the whole thing as a managed fail (with option to eject). I have managed things on my control over that period, I’ve changed my relationship with the kids, I’m emotionally more robust, I’m intellectually more prepared, I’m more competent at reading the enigma machine, so I’m that respects my investment of time has already paid off, and if that’s the return for being some paying nanny I would say that’s a pretty good investment. I have a relationship with the kids that most of my peers would give their left nut for. Also, would I be in a great place to be finding myself a new lady friend? Likely not, I’d likely be making the same mistake many do who just jump into bed with the next disordered person having learnt little from their previous relationship. So I suppose I don’t see the last 3 years as a write down, more a highly productive investment which has already paid dividends and has made me far more prepared for the future.

The children... better in, or better out... I just don’t know at all. I’m so off her emotional rollercoaster now, just tonight she was flapping around because she’d over stretched herself, she starts getting irate with the kids etc etc, I was cool as a cucumber thinking to myself “this is soo nothing to do with me at all”. She starts snapping at me, I just go about my thing and sort the kids out in an orderly manner.  I leave her to clear up all her mess and just stay super chilled. I have time to chat with the kids, whilst she’s running around like a whirlwind trying to suck people in and spit people out. Would there be more stress if I wasn’t there calmly doing stuff... hell yeah. Do the kids see her stressing,, hell yeah. So to conclude that the kids would be better if I wasn’t there, if they didn’t have to witness my W ignoring me when I walk in the door vs not witnessing an adult being chilled and getting on with stuff in a methodical way... I’m not sure I see that.

1 or 2... I probably still don’t know enough about what is determining my W choices (since she refuses to discuss anything with me) to tell you which one of those options is where I should be heading. All I do know is that I’m going to pursue #1 until I’m no longer allowed to.   

Thanks for all your help you lovely lovely people xxx

Enabler

OK. I know this is hard and if I'm pushing too hard I can  back off. Just send me a PM or throw a rock at me.

So for her (posted above):

This about a women in two love triangles (OM and Enabler, OM and Kid's unit) that she can't resolve. Or where unresolved is better than resolved? She would chose OM over Enabler. She would chose Kid's unit over OM. Not choosing has benefits over choosing. She can live in both worlds with two men supporting her needs. One for love and companionship. One for child rearing.

So for you (paraphrasing your post):

This is about a man who is fully dedicated to his children and is willing to endure in order to maintain day to day parenting (which would not happen in divorce), and is willing to accept a wife who is seeing another man, is pursuing her life interests without much regard for her husbands needs, and has declared her feelings for him as over (divorce decree). /td]

OK. It's not unusual for parents to stay together because of the kids... put on a good face, make nice, fight fairly for the kids sake... but this is more complicated than most.

There is already another man. There is a divorce on the table (at the very least, a clear statement of her being done with the romantic part of the relationship). You two are neither staying or going... which is a particularly difficult space to be in.  

When I mentioned metrics, I was thinking of discussing (as a group) things like (example)

Home environment: It would seem to me that the biggest issue is how damaging the home environment is (or is growing to be). My understanding is that the negative tension in the home is far greater evil than a cooperative co-parenting divorce - more damaging than a divorce per se' .

Age of the children The age of the children is a factor. I've heard that divorces when children are 11 and under is more damaging to the child than for teens - teens aren't solely and fully dependent on parents for all their needs - the are starting to branch out.

I've also seen where the reaction from teens is often harder on the parents than the reaction of a pre-teen.

Likelihood of recovery I think the length of the disconnect of the parents is a significant indicator of the likelihood the parents can recover the marriage. I think this also factors is how long it will take the non-affair parent to recover, and recondition themselves to be an eligible/attractive single person and start the second household.

It's not an easy situation. At some point, the downside of staying in is worse than breaking up. Where that tipping point is may be worth exploring and considering in your actions going forward.

Skip

This is great Skip. I disagree with the statement about me being "willing to accept" my wife's behaviour, I just have no effective weaponry to show my lack of acceptance without shooting myself in the face. I'll detail out the situation on the 3 headings:


- W has developed a mask in front of the kids. I believe that she identifies them as now being potential witnesses to her dark side so on the whole her behaviour towards me (such as silent treatment and other passive aggressive behaviours) are kept till they are in bed. This really changed when there was a big bout of weirdness one Sunday evening, W randomly decided she couldn't even sit at the dinner table facing me so sat on a different table... I disgusted her! This was random, weird and none of the kids had a clue what was going on. They questioned, I questioned, she blew up at me, the kids got upset and ran off to their rooms, I stayed calm, she stormed off... D11 comes downstairs and blows up at W, W tries to claim victim spot, D11 says "No Mummy, you're just horrible to Daddy, and I don't know why you need to be like this with him." If she attempts to ignore me in front of the kids, the kids will repeat my question or say "Mummy, Daddy just asked you a question" which forces an answer or a need to be reasonable. I see this as W identifying that kids are maybe seeing her dirty inner secret, and she wants to keep that under wraps and not appear to be a bad mother.
- Children get quite a lot of attention. I am keen to spend time with them since I don't know how long my ability to do that might last, my W is keen not to feel like the children are gravitating too far in my direction so organises things to do with her as well. There is minimal conflict here because I'm relatively flexible and due to W's social and church commitments there's more than enough gaps where I'm required to look after them. Like many things in the relationship, my W chooses what she wants and then everyone else fits in around that... I don't much operate in planning weeks or months ahead (she does) so typically this is no big deal for me being more spontaneous (what do we fancy doing today, what's the weather like, what chores do I NEED to complete)... that said I have got better at planning special things I know I want to do well in advance so block those events out in the online calendar now.
- Children are far too accepting of a weird dynamic of W and I doing things completely separately and don't even question us not attending each others family events. I don't know if they believe this to be normal adult behaviour or not, my guess is they have just realised asking the question isn't going to yield a reasonably satisfying answer so just go along with things. So, are we imprinting weird family dynamics as their normal... yes. This for me is NOT SURE


I read 7-13 being the danger zone but details details. My D11 is probably emotionally less mature than some 11yr olds anyway and gets significant abandonment fears. D11 and D6 probably cause the most conflict in the house. D11 because of her abandonment fears and sense of entitlement and D6 because she has learnt been taught through intermittent reinforcement that escalating conflict generally resulting getting her own way... she tested the boundaries and they fell.

Using D11 as an example. My reading about BPD has also been useful in providing me a tool kit with regards to dealing with a dysregulated kid. I've deployed those techniques when dealing with my daughter to great effect. My W doesn't have these tools so continues to escalate conflict in the same way we both used to. This typically results in cataclysmic arguments which unnecessarily spiral out of control which I then iron out... only for them to be reignited when W comes in again to put the record straight (typically by attempting to jettison any blame she might have felt she incurred in round 1, conflict becomes less about resolution and more about fault). I see this escalating DRAMATICALLY as hormones kick in and more complicated drama comes in to play. Not being there for this I believe is likely to result in a very dysfunctional relationship between my W and D11 where the periods between drama for healing become less and less and less and negative feelings become more entrenched (this happened to my W with her mother in her teenage years and resulted in my W self harming and other dangerous coping mechanisms). THAT SAID... in my W's experience her F rather was completely passive and did not interject at all to be the voice of reason (probably through fear MIL would turn on him instead), I'm not like my FIL, likely why we are where we're at in the relationship. Being 'in' the home would at least allow me to act differently with a view to breaking the inter-generational cycle. So this for me is STAY.

It's been a long and consistent decline in the relationship, there's no denying that. In the past I have bounced back into the relationship when she's turned the proverbial lights on again and just rocked back with little or no explanation. I would hope I wouldn't allow this again and guard the marriage from just brushing the last 3yrs+ under the carpet. I'd like to say that was pure magical thinking but frankly given my experiences in the past I am not so sure it's completely impossible. If my W was completely aligned to her own personal values, acting with complete accountability in an open manner... then I'd say this D was nailed on. But to me her fantasy and reality still seem miles apart, and her reality and the truth even further... and at some point they all need to merge, to actually get a divorce you HAVE TO accept the realities of getting a divorce, and we still appear to be miles off that point with every effort made to keep fantasy and reality apart... if I consider her actions so far, they have been emotional yes, but they have also been in the shadows, they are bits of paper, meetings, printing things out. Nothing that has actually changed her existence in the slightest. I suggest a monthly direct debt for a budget, she refuses, I suggest telling the kids, she's not keen, she has money to move out the home, she doesn't seem to do that. She wants me to leave... but again, that's not about changing her situation, that's changing mine. So for me, this is a STAY.



Is that what you were looking for Skip? I'll write what I think equates to a LEAVE, LEAVE, LEAVE

Enabler

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