BPDFamily.com

I am new here, and only recently realized that my sister likely has BPD. Growing as the older sibling, my parents always saw her as the fragile one and expected me to take care of her and be the mature big sister. Her rages and verbal abuse towards me began during her  teen years, and for decades I never witnessed them towards anyone but me. I either tried to be conciliatory or would withdraw, but never fought back or stood up for myself. My parents recognize but enable the behavior because they love her and don’t really know what to do, they have encouraged me to just accept it. In social situations she is very charming and charismatic.  I have begun to,witness the rages towards her husband and children, and  with people she encounters in business relationships. For so long it was always directed at me.  My parents are elderly and moved to be closer to me so I could help them with their increasing healthcare needs. A few weeks ago during a rage, I tried to set limits with her ( unsuccessfully) by trying to end the conversation. The following day she requested that we communicate via text and email. I dutifully have continued to send medical updates via email on my parents to her for the last several weeks, all of which went unacknowledged. Then all of a sudden a flurry of texts  today ending in a demand to release all medical records to her. She does not accept my role as healthcare POA. I am trying so hard to be inclusive of her and  :help:do the right thing for my parents, and no matter what  I do she challenges my perspective. She flips from one issue to the next. I have asked her doctors and care team to share information with her, in addition to my updates, and though she expresses appreciation for that, she continues to find new issues and create Un-ending circular conversations. It wears me out, and distracts me from my own family, my job and caring for my parents. I have recently gone back to a therapist to help me with boundaries with her  ( he is the one who suggested she is likely BPD) and even though intellectually I know I am doing right by my parents, I am worn down and just want her out of my life. I know that is not realistic while my parents are alive, but I have given up on ever having a mutually respectful relationship.  I read through all the tactics to try to validate and empathize and have tried to do that. If I don’t chase after every concern or agree with her, she can’t let it go. I am setting boundaries and things are getting worse instead of better. I am so discouraged and want out of this relationship.

*welcome*

I'm so sorry that in the midst of trying to be a caregiver for your parents you have to deal with rage from your sister.  That's tough.

I want to assure you we "get it".  How someone can present to the world so perfectly yet be horrible in private.

Can you take a moment and describe the conversation you tried to end.  If you can use exact words for the attempted ending that will help.

Solid work getting a therapist!

We can help.  I'll check back soon to see your reply.

Best,

FF

Thank you for the encouragement and support.  The way I tried to end the call was “ I am not feeling well and I am not going to stay on this call ( or I am going to end the call, hang up) if you don’t calm down and stop talking over me). She was getting lots of interruptions at home, so I also tried “I am not feeling well, and you are getting lots of interruptions, so this is not the best time, let’s try later”. ( she was aware I was ill). When I try to end a conversation, I must be doing it wrong because it just triggers her more, and becomes  about not getting her concerns addressed  because “I got mad at her”...I never raise my voice but she interrupted my boundary as being mad at her. The next day I received a really long text  saying some nice things but also outlining all the things I have “not addressed”. All of which I have listened, acknowledged but not necessarily taken the action she wants. I have tried hard to be inclusive, provide updates and consider her input, as well as be open to the options she poses. I have learned if I do act on or do what she wants, there is almost immediately something else, so I have stopped trying to please her. it doesn’t work and doesn’t help my parents. She wants to be 50% in decision making , even though I am the POA. Even minor decisions that are no brainers and reccomended by the care team are challenged.  It is tough on the care team and caregivers beyond me, but they seem to be more resilient and can depersonalize it more than I am able.

A very wise thing  to observe and understand.

Why do you think your sister behaves/says/does the things she does?

Best,

FF

Hi Mommydoc!

Just chiming in to say welcome and that I (and many others) understand where you're coming from.

While the issue that brought me here was my undiagnosed husband, I've come to realize that my sister may also have BPD -- or at least symptoms.

Like you, I'm the older sister. And, like you, my sister really started raging at me when we were in our teens. She was also anorexic, which at the time we thought was the diagnosis but now suspect was a symptom. I've heard that she's starting to slip back into some old behavioral traps, though this time it's excessive alcohol instead of the eating disorder.

Now that we no longer live in the same house, her treatment of me is better. But I've found that when we're together for more than a couple of hours, she starts to slip back into the same patterns of lashing out and constant annoyance with my very existence.

I've noticed that she's had her worst episodes when I've stood up to her (something she's not used to as I'm a non-confrontational push-over as a general rule). Do you think your boundary setting may be playing a role in the deterioration? Keep in mind that boundaries are a good thing. It's just that when we set them, it often brings on a strong response -- like a spoiled child suddenly being told "No."

Hi Mommydoc and welcome!

As mentioned, we get it here.  What you describe is frustrating for sure.  The good news is that you are not alone in this and we can help you as you continue to work your way through learning boundaries and validating and perhaps add a few other tools to your kit.

The part I underlined here may be what she is objecting to (I am assuming she was at least a bit upset at the time it was said).  People with BPD (pwBPD) are highly sensitive and see invalidation in things we might not think twice about.  If she is upset and defensive already, a comment like the one I underlined can increase that upset.  Can you edit the statement so that there is no 'you' statement?

I am not saying you are doing anything wrong here, or that is not my intention.  Sometimes we have to change the way we think things through and communicate them so they are received as intended.  Have you seen our article title Don't Be Invalidating (https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating)?  Sometimes it is hard to impossible to validate someone when they are dysregulated.  Actually when they are dysregulated, it is often the time *not* to validate.  Rather it can be better to focus on not invalidating while also acting on our boundary to protect ourself, in this case, ending the phone call. 

It can take a long time before things get better and sometimes, things only get better for us in terms of how we respond to our pwBPDs behaviors and dysregulations.  Setting boundaries, changing the status quo, changes the established dynamics of the system that exists between you and her and has existed for a long time.  There will be push back.  That is called an extinction burst, where things (push back) get worse before they get better.  It is important that you stand firm in your boundaries. 

Sometimes focusing on one boundary at a time (for example, ending the call when the conversation is overwhelming and circular) is best and then as you get more comfortable with changing things up, you can add more.  Consistency is key though otherwise you run into intermittent reinforcement which makes things more difficult.

You can read more about extinction bursts and intermittent reinforcement here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0;all

Sorry to hit you with so many links.  Overall, I think you are doing very well with things.  Being POA is difficult anyway but when there is a pwBPD or pwBPD traits in the mix it can be even more tricky.

Thank you all for your support.

Formflier, Great question. I think she acts and says what she does because she feels a lack of control over the situation and feels disconnected and excluded. She has a lot of anger over my parents choice to move close to me (as well as decisions they made with my advice that she didn’t agree with). They make it worse at times by saying they are taking my advice which invalidates her advice or viewpoint, rather than explaining their decision. She feels my family had more access to their grandparents and that she and her family were denied that. ( not realizing how hard work or the burden of caregiving) My father describes her  as seeing life as a  scoreboard and from her viewpoint, I have scored all the touchdowns. I do have an amazing husband and kids, as and a great career that I find rewarding and fulfilling.  I do my best not to share any of my “happiness” with her as it triggers her.

Ozzie101: Wow, our situations do sound similar. My lack of boundaries and efforts to be conciliatory/give in to avoid conflict in the past has enabled the situation and now that I am setting more boundaries that things are definitely heating up. My commitment to do the right thing for my parents provides clarity. My husband reminds me that in the past things got worse before they got better when I detached and set boundaries in the past.

Harri, your advice is so helpful. I read the link about validation and your explanation is helpful. I agree we are likely in an extinction burst. I am certain I invalidate her ( unintentionally) and learning how to avoid that will help tremendously.  My mom thinks she needs a lot of validation and is convinced that if I just pile it on (like my mom does does) things would be OK. Truthfully, I find it hard to validate her when she is so mean and toxic, as it doesn’t feel authentic.  She goes long periods of time only communicating via text and email, which is a welcome relief for me, as it is much easier for me to detach and respond asynchronously.  When we are in that mode, I do better in sincerely expressing appreciation, gratitude and respect for her and can think through how I respond.  Unfortunately our conversations always feel like I am responding and reacting to her needs and wants, and not focused on what my parents needs are and what is best for them. ( and never on my life or needs) Currently her focus is getting access to/or copies of medical records and there have been a lot of texts and messages in the last 48 hours (after  two weeks of her ignoring all of my messages and updates) Like everything she gets stuck on, it is a circular conversation that is going nowhere and is wearing me out.  Even without my care giving responsibilities, I have a very busy life and is a distraction from the things I want to give my energy and attention to.

Sometimes there is nuance and little details that matter...sometimes there is only the big picture to look at.

What I bolded up there is BIG PICTURE.

Most of us "nons" combine our feelings and our thinking and come up with what we are going to present to the world.

pwBPD just "let loose" with their feelings...especially when stressed/triggered/pressured.

Now that you understand the underlying issue, I wonder if you have any thoughts about  why it's easier for the caregivers to let this BPDish stuff slide off them?

Best,

FF

Yes, the big picture is that she is ruled by her emotions and there is no logic. When I use logic it is not effective, and when I validate her emotions it only works short term to de-escalate the current situation. She has unresolved anger towards my parents and me and overall unhappiness with her life  that she projects on me. But there is no way to surface the old issues from childhood or even a few years ago, as she vehemently denies anytime I try to surface old issues or anger about the past. We sometimes have short term peace, but as soon as I think things are stable, a new issue arises.

The caregivers are able to depersonalize more effectively (most of the time) because they are not vested in the relationship and they focus on their job of caring for my parents. They appreciate me amd adore my parents. Because she only shows up for short periods of time they tolerate her. But they are frustrated frequently  as she is very demanding, has high expectations for their attention, and contradicts/tries to change the care plan. They know she does not authority to do that so it puts them in an awkward position.  Some of them are afraid of her and she recently reduced another to tears. She misrepresents herself as having 50% health care decision making with them which is problematic when new people join the team. I used to apologize and be embarrassed but no more. I realize they distinguish us and appreciate me, and all I can do is be proactive in making them aware of potential land mines ( when I see or anticipate them) and try to de-escalate and support them when we do.

As I learn more about BPD, I am concerned about her kids and husband have endured , as I have witnessed her rages towards them and not sure if I am only seeing the tip of the iceberg. They are about to become empty nesters and I am not sure the marriage will survive. She likely has a lot of fear of losing those she cares about.

Close...the critical thing to understand is it has VERY LITTLE to NOTHING to do with you.  So...if you didn't cause it, can't change it..etc etc, it's easier not to take things personally.

Here is the thing...you know what to expect from her and if you improve your validation skills and improve skills at boundary enforcement, I bet YOU will be much more at ease. 

Notice I didn't talk about her being at ease, although it's likely she will be.

What do you think?  Want to dig more into boundaries and validation?

Best,

FF

Intellectually that makes sense, but it is hard to get there for me emotionally. I am trying, but it requires erasing a lot of parental influence and letting go of my “people pleasing” tendencies.

I do feel better, and am also realizing that the healthcare team, particularly the assigned social worker can be part of the solution by reinforcing the boundaries I set. Even in the last couple days, there is slight progress.  Instead of frequent frantic texts ( from her to me) and demands to talk through things by phone, by not responding to her immediately and moving it to email, I have been able to space out the communication and it appears to be de-escalating slightly. That feels great!

So yes, definitely interested in validation and boundaries.

This is a big part of why they can depersonalize more easily.  They do not have the long standing emotional ties and history.  They also benefit from professional distance.   We can achieve the same sort of distance but t will be harder, still doable, but harder.  As Formflier mentions, knowing that a lot of what people say and do have little to nothing to do with us will help.  So does understanding the behaviors associated with the disorder and learning some of the tools we offer here.  

A big part of what we need to do on this board, even more so than the others, is to do a lot of emotional work on us.  Often there is a huge battle between our emotional mind and our logical mind.  Heck, I don't know about you or anyone else, but sometimes finding my logical mind was a feat!

Let the professionals deal with their own struggles here.  Continue to inform them as they come on your parents case, but beyond that, it is up to them.  I used to work with patients and had families come in as 'support'.  It often made my job harder but it was part of my job to help the patient first and I often took the heat so the patient did not have to.

It sounds like you are aware of that but I just want to reinforce that I think you are doing very well.

Again, the emotional ties and responses we have will take time and work but it can be done as we learn the other tools.

Oh, I forgot.  You might want to start reading about Mind fulness and Wise mind which is where there is a melding of sorts between the intellectual and emotional mind.

Triggering Mindfulness and Wise Mind (https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind)

I'm an ESTJ.

Something that worked for me to "depersonalize" things was to "identify" the different tactics/things that were being "used against me".

So..

"Oh..there's bait for a fight."

ahh...the ol' "projection" rearing it's head

So I was deliberate about

1.  Crazy thing said
2.  FF pause
3.  FF think about what it is
4.  FF pause/do I have it right
5.  FF tries hard to remember what a good "response" is (what have I learned)
6.  FF pause
7.  FF use the response
8  FF pause and listen
(wash/rinse/repeat)

At all these stages I was also considering should I stay or exit (pull ejection handle on the conversation). 

A few things came out of this.  Things SLOWED way down and my wife started to tell me I was being robotic (which was likely true).  I was hyper focused on hitting the steps and staying away from emotion.

Once I had this part of it, I started letting emotion and EMPATHY back into my tool box.  (this was done with guidance of my P)

So now it's much more likely that

1.  Crazy thing is said.
2.  FF pauses, looks at his wife, perhaps puts hand on her shoulder or something gentle like that.
3.  FF says (with just a touch of alarm)  "Oh my!  This sounds important.  Let me go get us some ice water/hot chocolate (or something) and then I can give you my full attention."

(note...I still build lots of "time" and "space" in here for my wife's fire to burn out, or at least so I can make sure I'm not dumping more fuel on it)

Long winded way of saying that hopefully you can find a method to focus less on your emotions (in the moment) and more on using techniques we can help you understand and learn.  Eventually you'll figure out stuff that works for you.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

Slowing things down and having emotion and empathy is vital.  You do not need to go the robotic method though if it is the best we can muster (and that happens) I think it is best to focus on not being invalidating and self soothing in more productive ways rather than trying to respond in a rote like way.

Being robotic is going to backfire big time.   It is obvious to anyone and invalidating. 


Formflier brings up some interesting points here:  Looking at the behaviors of a pwBPD as a way to bait us and tactics to use against us is not centering for us, is not productive and is going to help depersonalize the behaviors if we see them as a deliberate attack.  This is where wise mind can help.  It may feel deliberate and seem like bait but when we pair that with what we know about BPD does it really stand up?  BPD is a disorder of emotional regulation.  When a person is dysregulated, they are focused on their emotions and making them go away using often very dysfunctional coping behaviors.

So I really like where Formflier talks about bringing in empathy.  Changing, or not adopting a mindset that 'they' are being deliberate in baiting us will go a long way in terms of centering us and helping us keep things as conflict free and healthy for *us*.   |iiii

Which brings up the question...

What is THE current emotional issue likely driving your siblings BPDish behavior?  Can you empathize with this?

Best,

FF

This is very helpful Harri and FF. I am ENFJ, and NF is pretty dominant. In  my work as a leader and physician, and in my other personal relationships  NF is an asset, making it easier to connect and empathize with those around me,  my patients and their families.

With my sibling, it is a vulnerability, my husband thinks I am “too empathetic” ( strength overused) to the point that I don’t adequately protect myself and I address her needs over my own.  My husband tells me  I need to go into “ my doctor mode” which is a place where I am a  more detached, logical but still empathetic.

I like the idea of the wise mind, and learning to mindfully navigate to my logical mind in the moment, slowing  down and getting to that place of observation of what is going on... stepping out of the situation and “going to the balcony”  to observe the situation in real time. The Palliative team caring for my mother is going to suggest a family meeting and that will be the perfect opportunity. I like the idea of slowing rather than being robotic... ( don’t think I could be robotic if I tried and agree it would backfire with her).  A technique I use at work with really volatile people, is to try to erase everything I have heard and know about them, give them a completely clean slate ( while logically remembering the facts)... it works well and seems like the idea of wise mind?

Currently, we are communicating via email. Transitioning from text to email naturally slowed things down and has allowed me to get to wise mind. I can craft a response, sit on it, re-read revise and then send. The question is can I do it with my sibling  in the moment...


The issue that is driving my siblings BPD behavior is feeling isolated and excluded, because she is far away, and she is not the medical decision maker. She is afraid my mother is going to die. ( my mother was very ill and hospitalized but was never dying. ) Things were uncertain and chaotic for a while and so I understood where the behavior was coming from. She was strongly triggered when I made medical decisions despite her not being in agreement and logically explained my medical decisions. My focus was  on my mom and her transition and rehab, and I know I was doing what was best for her. It has been a fine balance between keeping her updated on what is going on and making sure the right decisions are being made to support my mothers well being. ( the more she knows, the more she reacts and the more she challenges) Now that my mom is home, making progress and improving, the continuing drama is incongruent with the situation. By limiting my contact with my sibling it is helping me feel joy and gratitude for my mothers improvements.

I am grateful for this board and support and want to thank both of you for your insights. I plan to make a donation to support this site. I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

So...if you've ever heard the phrase associated with BPD "I hate you don't leave me", it highlights that "fear of abandonment" is normally a massive deal with most pwBPD.

There is no "abandonment" worse than someone passing away.

Add that on top of all the other stuff she has been ruminating about for years and years and I hope you can appreciate how "raw" her emotions likely are.

Next, combine this with the power of invalidation.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

So, your sis thinks Mom is dying and you "logically" explain this is not the case.  Instead of "fixing" those raw emotions, you just invalidated them (which makes them much..much worse)

As a doctor you will understand "dosing"

1 invalidation is likely equivalent to 10 "validations". 

This invalidation versus the "truth" thing can be quite confusing.

I'll illustrate with a quick story from my past.

"paranoia" was a big thing for my wife.  She believed I had women stashed everywhere, had a love child with one and was married (secretly) to another.

You and I both have the "J" in our personalities.  So.."the facts" are important to us. 

I could factually prove to my wife that ALL  of her claims were false, which to me (and likely you) makes sense and would make us happy.  After all...knowing your spouse is NOT maintaining a secret harem, kids, wives would "make" most people happy.

For a pwBPD, being told their feelings are WRONG is BAD. 

Each time I proved it wrong, the next paranoid idea came back worse than the prior one.  (basically invalidation kept adding fuel to the fire)

Once I stopped invalidating, paranoia started slipping away...and now is rarely part of our marriage.

So...to circle back to you.  How often have you tried to convince your sister that "Mom is fine" or "going to be OK"?  How did that go?

As you can see...this is like walking through a mine field.

Can I ask what type of medicine you practice?

Best,

FF

Hi Mommydoc.  I am glad the information is helping. 
We have more information on wise mind here:  Triggering, Mindfulness and Wise Mind (https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind) Basically, wise mind is where we bring our logical mind and emotional mind together.  It sounds like you have this down in terms of dealing with your patients and in work situations.  It can be a bit trickier with family members just because of the long history, but it still works at helping *us*. 

See what you think of the article.

I wish I could get to where you are with your wife FF . If I could only detach a little more while maintaining compassion and empathy. Harri, I like this from the linked article you provided “People can offer us their opinions,  it is only that which the mind decides has any relevance that we take on for ourselves.  Only the mind that can complement us, insult us, lift us, or destroy us.” I think I do wise mind well at work.  Many of my direct reports say they try to “channel me” in challenging conversations... my husband says I should channel my “work self” with my my sibling!

I need some practical advice on a few things:
Context: A few weeks ago, after a rage ( the last time we talked by phone), she sent a really long text saying I had not addressed her concerns and listed 14 bullet points that she wanted addressed regarding her concerns about the current assisted living. ( we can agree I did not adequately validate her). In ensuing email conversations, I have attempted to validate her emotions while setting boundaries around medical decision making. She  told the social worker that I had not addressed her “14 points” ( sign I am continuing to invalidate her despite my efforts) and that her plan is to send an email to the facility demanding they address her “14” concerns.  ( that has not happened to my knowledge)

She specifically wants me to acknowledge her as a 50/50 decision maker for everything( she claims she is not challenging the DPOA).  She requested access to my mothers online health portal/medical record and when I did not agree she asked for a copy of her medical records. The social worker explained to her that only the DPOA has access, then she told me “the SW told her” to ask me for access. She distorts and manipulates. In response to the medical record release I responded “ What do you hope to get from medical record access that are not receiving now? Are there things other than Medical Record Access that would improve the situation?” Her response “I am receiving bits and pieces of information from you, her past caretakers and/or her new caretakers. Reviewing her medical records will help me understand where she is medically – past, present, future. Her medical well-being is related to her overall well-being. Both are important to me.”  She typically characterizes me as the one with “medical knowledge” but that she feels mom’s spiritual and emotional well-being are being neglected and that she feels she has a much better handle on that. Currently the social worker is arranging  for a  family meeting so we can talk with the team together and she can ask and get her questions answered, and for her to feel included. I sent her a long response yesterday acknowledging her feelings, and made commitments to updating her and being inclusive, without agreeing to the release of records. She has not committed to participating in the family meeting but I hope she will.

When she talks to me and others, she is focused on “future”.  She wants a “plan”for the future. She watched a movie about dementia and one of the patients became catatonic. The movie overall was excellent in providing a perspective, but she got stuck on “when mom becomes catatonic” the place she is in now, would not be the right place for her. I have agreed and acknowledged that fear and committed to working with her if that happens. She tries to corner every healthcare professional into “predicting” my mom’s course and then tries to translate in a plan that is not appropriate. Her fears about the future are preventing her from seeing all the progress in the present. The healthcare care team is pretty consistent in saying it is impossible to predict and confirming that a move now is not the right thing.


Questions:
- I have addressed each of her concerns many times, but most of the time, the responses are either logic/fact or my opinion, and therefore she feels further invalidated. It seems completely crazy to me to respond with 14 point/ counterpoint, as I am pretty sure that would inflame her more and send us from the smoldering campfire to a blazing bonfire. Instead, I try to acknowledge her feelings. ( “It must have been hard to be so far away when mom’s speech was impaired and she didn’t want to talk on the phone”). My gut tells me not to do the point counterpoint, as it will blow things up again, but it confirms that she continues to not feel validated. The 14 points are not really 14 separate issues, and most as you might expect are mostly emotions...so not sure it will truly translate as something the facility can address. But would be happy to let them attempt to respond rather than me.
- DPOA/Medical Records: I checked in with the trust attorney and she shared that it is not uncommon in the situation of Joint Trustees with a single HC DPOA to run into this situation, while affirming the importance of a single HC DPOA. She agreed with only the HC DPOA having access to the patient portal, and encouraged sharing the legal document POA with my sibling. She also said that if my sibling chose to pursue a legal course, she likely would be able to make a case for getting medical records ultimately released to her. At first,  the idea of releasing a copy of the medical records seemed like inviting more conflict. It is not clear why or what she will do with them, and it is likely she will use this to create new fires. There is the possibility that she is seeking external medical (or legal) opinions to challenge my mother’s current placement.  At the same time, there is nothing in my mothers records that is a secret, and if having it gives a greater sense of inclusion and/or control, I am not sure I should set a boundary there. I am confident in my mom’s care, placement and the decision making. I don’t believe that it will resolve anything with my sister. My husband and best friend are vehemently against as they believe it will create a lot more angst and a new set of issues. Of course they are both very protective of me, so not sure they are objective. At this point, I have pulled the documents together but have not responded to the request or sent her anything.
- I recognize I have no control over her emotions and this is not about me, but how much time should I spending in validating someone who is “stuck”?  Wise mind for me, is accepting that the future is uncertain and taking it a day at a time. Being grateful for the progress and the amazing care, while acknowledging and validating my siblings fears but not acting on them unless they are beneficial to my mom, (and trying to be open minded enough to know the difference). 

Advice on when or whether to address the bulleted list. ( and if yes how)
Would love advice on the value ( if any) of providing the records to her.
How do I acknowledge her feelings while avoiding the rabbit hole of “then you agree...” Which then  forces me to clarify and defend my opinions with “my logic” and then invalidates her further.
I have been trying help her see the blessings and progress in the present. Not my job?  Is it unrealistic to help her get there?

PS, I am a pediatrician by training and practiced clinically for 25 years, before transitioning to a full time healthcare executive role for last 7 years. Love, love, love my work  and feel a strong connection to purpose in my career...  a great source of personal resilience.

At first blush I would say toss the list back to her.

There are several "axioms" that I use and advise others to use when dealing with pwBPD. 

One of them is "get them to expend the energy...not you"
 
See how she is trying to control your time and putting your focus on her and her 14 points.  Where should your focus be?

So...we could help you craft a succinct response.

"These 14 points seem very important to you.  Please give me  a suggested resolution to each point that would move us forward.  That will help me understand better."

I'm dubious about giving her access to records.  She sounds like the kind of person that will take the answer to 1 question and have 3 more questions.  (where will it end)

Can you give an example of a point or two.  (My hats off to you, I don't think I could make it through 14)


Best,

FF

Hi mommydoc & welcome!  :hi:

I am going to offer a complementary take on your situation. Please take it with a grain of salt. I have a diagnosed bpd mom. That’s why I’m on this forum.

Could part of the disagreement you & your younger sister have be due to your roles in the family as you were growing up? I am the younger sister to an older sibling.  My brother was pushed forward as a responsible, very smart child. My father disciplined him and kept close watch on his development. My mom fawned over him as the perfect child (split white - not a good spot.) He’s 6 years older than me, which in hindsight was a blessing. I was treated like a cute puppy by my dad & not watched so carefully. I was split black and the target of my mom’s rage. When she was done raging, she left me alone. My brother left home for good when I was 8 for high school.  I did what I wanted to do with my life. I stopped telling him in my early 20s about my life because my mom created rivalry between us.

I don’t want to go off-track here. I became what my brother was supposed to be. I scored the touchdowns in life.

Do these touchdowns really matter? Strip them away and what do you have?

I could be wrong, but your sister seems just as  concerned for your parents as you do.  And she has uBPD. 

I would not want to be bombarded with word salad and never ending questions either. I have to chuckle at your sister’s tactics. I did the same to my brother when I was in the early grades.

You are emailing and keeping the conversations via email Brief, Informative, Friendly and Firm.  Besides haranguing your parents care givers, what harm will it do to show her the medical records? It may take the edge off (perhaps a tiny bit) her difficult behavior. If she is allowed to visit your parents, she’ll harangue those caregivers regardless. Let her face the consequences if she goes off the rails.

Your parents gave you POA and not her. Let them tell her why. If she asks you, keep handing it back to your parents. This is their duty to handle.

I might be on the wrong track here. Not sure, but I know how it is to be a little sister in a family with a member suffering from bpd. Good luck and thinking good thoughts for all of you.

Thank you formflier and Telhill for your very practical advice. 

Telhill, you are  insightful to pick on the birth order roles. I recently read a book on birth order and my sibling and I are  classic in many ways. Definitely factors into our dynamic ( my husband is the younger sibling and I recognize the patterns with he and his sibling and even in my two young adult children.) On top of that, in her eyes, I am  the favored child. It helps me with the empathy component to understand these patterns and dynamics. At the same time, some of her  behaviors are extreme and not OK. As a people pleasing first child I have enabled many things for a long time, to keep my parents happy, and to avoid conflict.

I am ambivalent about the medical records. I actually compiled them and considered sending them to her over the weekend. I don’t think  that there is anything to hide or keep from her and want her to have a full picture. My husband and best friend were adamantly against it and my therapist felt similarly to FF that it likely had greater risk than benefit. For now, I am holding off, mostly because I anticipate it will trigger a new set of issues. It is also about setting boundaries as her tactics to try to get the records were manipulative and overly aggressive and I don’t want to reward that behavior.   

Things are settling a little. The empathy with detachment/ better boundaries is working. I have been focused on validating her feelings and expressing gratitude and stopped trying to be logical or defend my opinions or decisions with facts. I am providing detailed updates to keep her informed on my mom’s improvements. We haven’t spoken by phone in several weeks and today I got an email,message from her which I am trying to decide how to respond to. This is an excerpt:

“The experiences with you, mom, her illness and recovery over the last months, have been an emotional roller coaster for me, with a mixture of feelings that include love, inspiration, gratefulness, appreciation, sadness, grief, isolation and rejection. Some of your words, actions and decisions, over the last months to me are disappointing and sad. I feel that you are being possessive of mom in a way that isolates her from me, our relationship and our families. I particularly felt this way before, during and after my last visit; when you didn't encourage me and my family to visit you, mom and your family over the holidays; and when I learned that you would not allow me to access and/or view mom's medical records. The last couple of messages from you have been more positive in expressing love, acceptance, appreciation, thankfulness, healing and moving forward. You have demonstrated an interest in relationships with both of our families, which I appreciate and am thankful for. This makes me feel hopeful for our future, as well as mom’s and our families.”

Tomorrow afternoon we have a family meeting with the Palliative Doctor, Nurse and Social worker . My hope is that they will take the lead and it will go better than expected. Before hand to get myself in the right mindset, I am going to work out, volunteer at a mission, then do a loving kindness meditation just prior. Wish us luck!

Any advice on responding to her message appreciated.

Wishing everyone a very fulfilling Thanksgiving! I am so grateful for the tremendous support I have experienced on this site!

I'm a big fan of one of Dr Phil's axioms.  He makes it a point to NEVER reward bad behavior.

Now..if she wanted to apologize and reconcile for her manipulative tactics/attitude towards you..etc etc, I could see you sending over records as a peace offering.

Has she expressed anything in particular she is looking for in the records? 

Best,

FF

At first read (and even second read) this seems very controlling and manipulative.  She wants you to encourage her to visit?

Please only consider the following response, I wouldn't send it unless you think it wise and you get others to  advise it's a good idea (my "style" is a bit more confrontational/clear than average here on bpdfamily)

Basically I would say the letter and her feelings are important for you to understand, so you want to know exactly what encouraging her to visit looks like and ask her directly if she has ever felt you "discouraged" a visit.

Perhaps follow up with "as family roles change due to circumstances I want to carefully consider my role going forward."

I say this because "validating a pwBPD" can be an endless pit, I'm sure you have many demands on your time these days.

Best,

FF

Hello mommydoc,

I hope the meeting went well with the care team, your sis and you.  

If you haven't answered the email yet, ignoring the disordered bpd fears has worked with my experience with dBPDm.  Perhaps answer the latter part of the email only? My mom is not technically literate, so we communicate in person on over the phone. Perhaps this works better because there is no email or text for her to reread to see that I didn't answer something. Not sure.

I tend to be analytical and fact oriented. I also see inconsistencies in statements pretty quickly. I need to see the facts for myself and investigate before I come to a conclusion. I tested as INTJ in the Myers-Briggs PI many decades in college and redo the test every few years. It never changes.  I hate to disclose this as it's the personality type de jour. However, I suffered many years as a nerd in school and beyond. It's taken many years to accept I can't be myself and meet cultural expectations of how a female should act.

Enough about me. Perhaps your sister is also analytical and fact oriented? Perhaps this is why she wants so desperately to see the medical records? When her suspicions take over, she may become dysregulated. The tipping point for dysregulation may be a lot lower since she suffers from bpd. I can understand why you wouldn't want to show her these if it sets off ocd-ish behavior. It's tough all around. Am hoping the meeting with the professionals helped allay her fears about your mother.

Telhill, she is definitely not analytical, more the opposite. I don’t think she would even read the records. If she did she would twist and distort the facts or draw incorrect conclusions. The family meeting went great (from my perspective). I was intentional in my preparation, working out and volunteering in the morning and then a loving kindness meditation immediately beforehand. I was able to achieve a blend of emotional detachment, while actively participating, empathizing appropriately, and expressing gratitude. Prior, I encouraged the team to take the lead and to focus on my siblings questions. Only when they were not able to answer a question fully, did I engage to assist in answering or clarifying. There were a few times where she was trying to twist what they were saying or trying to get them to say things that were not accurate. They did very well and did not allow her to do so. She is always quite charming around strangers.

Her questions made me realize that she has probably dissociated more than I realized. Despite huge effort on my part to keep her informed of what was going on day to day, and keep her updated, she seemed genuinely confused about where my mom has been and where she is now. Some of her questions  surprised me and reflect either not listening or not understanding many things we have talked about a lot. This site has helped me realize that it is not intentional on her part. She has not been processing a lot of what has been happening and was stuck in a very bad place ( when my mother was very ill). At the end she seemed (almost) insightful and shared that perhaps she may have  been projecting her fears onto my mom. She didn’t use the word “project” but that was the gist of it.  I know from experience that whatever insight she expressed or calm we have achieved will be short lived however. I used to get sucked in at this point and perhaps over empathize/ forgive her behavior, but not going to let that happen. She didn’t bring up the medical records, so I am going to leave it alone. It might come back as an issue, but for now she may have backed off.  She will find  a new issue, just waiting to,see what it is.

In terms of not “encouraging her” to come for the holidays, it is accurate. Our two families, mostly due to distance, busy kid schedules and my parents not being able to travel  have not spent the holidays together very often, particularly for the last decade. She briefly expressed a desire to do so, and I didn’t jump on it.  It is stressful to my family and me when she visits, and the idea of having her here the only time my kids are home from school is the last thing I want.

She frequently tells me how important it is for her to spend time with my parents. She also makes a big deal about how much time, money and effort it is for her. I  repeatedly encourage her to visit my parents, to, share how much it means to them  and how important it is for them to have time with her. I express my appreciation for the time, money and effort it requires. The place where I can’t sincerely validate her is to say, that my family and I want, need and enjoy spending time with she and her family.  That “critical omission” invalidates her. She has no insight, so it would be completely no win to share the impact her behavior has on my family and me. She has idealized visions of a  family Christmas that are not likely to be realized, but in her mind I am preventing that for she and her family because I didn’t invite them  for the holidays. I am having elective surgery later this week and will be recovering so another reason not to go down this path.

I am getting to the place where I see and understand her better, but am also advocating for myself and my family and no longer feeling responsible for all the anger she expresses towards me. The boundaries are hard but I feel good about setting and staying with them.

Thanks for the information about the family meeting.  Sounds positive.

I would encourage you to read your post a few times and identify areas where you have been putting out energy/time/effort with little to show for it from your sis.

I'm also wondering if there are areas of your life where that energy/effort/time might be better used.

What if there was a way for you to expend less energy on your sister and get a better result.  Would you be interested?

Best,

FF

Am sorry, mommydoc.  It sounds very hard for you to deal with that and your parents' needs. She sounds like a mixture of my dBPD mom (raging, though mom is reserved/hard working when the rage subsides) and painted white/golden child brother (charming, has to be in charge of it all and seen as better than most).  It's ok to forgive. It helps to let go of the anger. It helps me to think logically instead of emotionally.  Glad you are letting go of the need to over empathize and fix. I am too. It's tiring. There are always other issues, but the skill set to deal with her remains the same.

I can't help but see the parallels between your sister and my brother. He doesn't have bpd but is treated with kid gloves by my parents. He does not pay attention to what I say. I have had my place for over 15 years. It's on a well known street in my city. His daughter's new boyfriend works on the same street (though around 20 blocks away). I mentioned that's my street too. He looked puzzled. I asked him if he remembered that I lived there. He didn't answer. I think he was embarrassed to admit he forgot.  It's pretty common for him not to know much about me. If I asked him now what I did for my career, he would know where I worked but not what I did. Being a tech worker is considered more prestigious than being a high school teacher. I think both jobs are equally fine, but my job is the popular career these days.
I hope your surgery goes well and you recover quickly!

Those are good steps. I'm trying too.  She is truly not your responsibility to fix or look after. It's like learning another language - BPD-ese. SET, not JADE, not Karpman drama triangle, RA. I'm learning but still at the flash card state. Good luck and, again, very happy the meeting went well!

Thank you Telhill and formflier. I love the idea of “flashcard stage”. LOL, still have a lot of learning to do myself. Thank you for sharing your story.

It is tiring, but I am making progress. For so many years, I attributed the dysfunction to normal sibling rivalry/ birth order dynamics. I rationalized her  behavior and felt guilty. We have had our ups and downs, but the downs have been more intense recently because of my mothers recent illness/decline and uncertainty about progression of her illness. This site along with returning to my therapist is helping me recognize my contributions to the dysfunction. Going LC has helped tremendously. I have a much greater sense of clarity and now recognize the FOG behaviors . As I have joined this site, it is interesting how many “not so good” memories of our interactions have surfaced and the patterns seem so obvious in retrospect. My desire to keep peace to make my parents happy didn’t really serve anyone, including them, well. They feel guilty too. They love her, see her behavior but also rationalize it and try to justify it.  I have to let go of how they want me to interact with her and trust my own perceptions and feelings. I have the right to my own approach, even if it is different from what my parents and sister want. I just  wish I had figured it out sooner! I feel very fortunate to have such great support from my husband and close friends who are part of my inner circle (chosen family) to redirect my energy, love and attention to.

Yes, yes yes FF! Appreciate your advice and insights. I am very ready to spend less energy and get better results. I refuse to be held prisoner by her FOG  and am ready to set (and stand firm) on personal boundaries, treasure myself, and all that is good in the world and my life, particularly my family and friends.  The last 4 days ( with no contact with her) have been awesome spending time with many other extended family members as well as some great alone time with my husband at a beautiful resort the last two days. It has been great to reclaim my emotional space for the good in my life. 

It is kind of crazy, but having elective surgery later this week is like a forced “pause” button for me, which I am excited about. It forces me to slow down at home, not worry about the holidays or work and focus on myself and my recovery. Planning to do a lot of meditation, journaling and just enjoy being away from work. And plan to have little to no contact with my sister.  I am super excited to have 10 days with my son and daughter home for the holidays in just a few weeks.

This is really the crux of it.  Once you get through your recovery, then be deliberate about "I force myself to slow down and (fill in the blank)"

When sis wants something, clarify you have the request right, let her know you will take time soon to focus on her and will be back to her (be deliberate about picking a timeframe that works for YOU)

She will do what she will do.  When you do elect to spend time with her, be fully present for her, focus on the now and then when your time is up (that you have thought through ahead of time) move on with your life (no jade or explanations...just do it)

You've got this.

Best wishes on your surgery!

Best,

FF

Thank you so much! I saw my therapist this evening and he felt I have achieved a higher level of clarity and am in a good place to deal with whatever happens.  I am not as confident but do recognize the progress and know that whatever happens Imwill do my best and that my greater level,of self awareness and new tools will make it easier. I am so grateful for this site and the support.

More than anything over the last few weeks, I have developed a much greater sense of empathy for where my sibling is, while simultaneously achieving a much greater sense of detachment and commitment to my own needs and self care.

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