BPDFamily.com

It took some years.  A lot of research, patience, adaptation.

Yet as I would say was inevitable in the long run, I have started the divorce process.

This site changed my life.  So no doubt will be quite valuable as I navigate difficult times ahead.  So a placeholder for that... Need to find a place to live, financials, visitation and all that jazz

Oof. How are you doing?

How far along in the divorce process are you?

There are lots of us here to walk with you.

You're not alone  :hug:

LnL

It took me many years to get to the point where I was done and needed to separate. Sometimes I wish I had done it earlier, but I have peace of mind knowing that I did everything I could to make the marriage work.

Good luck to you.  I will say this board has a wealth of knowledge and have pretty much experienced everything so I know you will have a lot of support and guidance to help you on this difficult journey. 

A lot of great support and advice here, thank you all.

This is all quite new/raw, so just starting the journey.

I can't remember when I started here.  Maybe 2011?  Very helpful site, and it made a difference to improve both my own, and my kid's lives.  So managed a pretty good run and things were somewhat stable for a while.  Not fulfilling.  But stable.

Then it blew up due to my own doing.  So some rough times going forward.  But at the same time, a sense of relief that it is finally happening.  Maybe false hope that I might get pieces of myself back.  With time. 

Courage to you!
I hope you’ve made progress on things like living arrangements and sustainment ;)
I’m still in a stuck, held together by blackmail sort of marriage, but I understand the difficulties with decisions and finally committing to doing something as big as divorce.
You’re in my thoughts!

I think one of your posts was the first one I responded to on here.

Sorry to hear that you're also in this situation now - but I'm sure you will work it out. You're not alone!

Hi Yeeter... sorry to see you back under these circumstances  :(  There is light at the end of the tunnel.

So what has happened to bring things to a head?

Has a divorce been filed?

Thanks empathic, I appreciate the trivia.  And the moniker...:)

Skip, there isnt much I can say other than I just broke down.  Some fairly serious health issues (a couple surgeries), long term medication, high stress at work, and I ended up in an affair.  I was caught.  Divorce pending.

My health has improved in every way so that is trending the right direction.

I have not been served yet, but it is imminent.  Still in the house at the advice of my lawyer, so pretty tense times.

My kids are now s15, d13, d11 and my d11 has shut me out and will not speak to me.  But it hasnt been a full week yet.

A zillion emotions not the least of which is disappointment in myself.  As I sit here and type, I wonder if I would have done better by staying more active here - I had dropped off regular visits.  This site provided a significant portion of my support network for several years and things had 'improved' and I let it slack.

And so I am back...

btw Skip - it is great to see you are still here, active, and doing good things for people.  Ditto to LnL

It's along walk... we'll walk with you.

Thanks all.

Only started the walk but I can say that so far, I like both lawyers.  They recognize how volatile the emotions are, even more than 'normal' (during times where normal is highly volatile)

The uncertainty.  List of things to do.  Various people involved.  All add up to tremendous emotional swings (with the highs not even getting to the 'average' level)

One day at a time, using every tool and skill from this site. 

Yesterday we started out with her giving ideas on possible living arrangements for me.  She didn't want to see $ go to waste because there will be little

I have an apartment lined up that is on an intersection for the kid commute (they will go through this intersection 6x a day).  I pulled out first month and deposit $ from our account and told her as such.  (Nothing filed yet, that may come Monday, but we were telling each other of any spending and our house mortgage goes out as well).  She came back later stating her lawyer said I couldn't use that money because they were marital asserts.

Then throughout the day the berating and verbal attacks grew with frequency as the day went on.  She corners me in my bedroom/office and stands at the door and goes off.  I ask her to stop, it continues.  I asked her to please leave and she started chanting 'leave, leave leave... Leave, leave, leave... That is what I want you to do'.

Explained that I was trying to, and in fact had apt lined up but she told me i couldnt
Use money for it.  She said just stay with a friend

Then underlying this is a condition she has (originally we thought mastocytosis) where, when stressed she gets a physical reaction like an allergic flare.  Have been a couple times she has had to use epi pen to recover.

So this comes into play... That I am putting her life in danger because I won't leave the house, and me being there causes her to have a serious reaction.

I DID have some nice moments with the kids while she was out.  One focused on cookie making.  Another doing a stained glass with me.  So those were highlights.  I know they are stressed and mom is giving them guidance on what to do/think.  I try not to drag them into any of it.  Next step will be her having a session with her lawyer on Monday to prepare the filing.  Going to be a long holiday weekend...

Bill Eddy's book Don't Alienate the Kids is one of the most important books I read during the height of divorce tension with my ex.

It builds on skills we learn here, adapted specifically for the unique triangulations that often happen with kids whose own emotions become dysregulated during divorce.

If you don't feel there's time for reading, we can also share what worked for us. Getting my son grounded and helping him build emotional resiliency helped me get through the worst of it, too.

We're here for you.

Sorry, you can't trust what she claims she told her lawyer (it would have been that person's perspective) and what her lawyer told her in response (essentially hearsay colored through her perceptions).

If neither of you has filed yet then legally, as I understand it, there is nothing to stop you from using your family's funds to get an apartment or any other reasonable purpose — and nothing to stop her from unilaterally draining the family's funds.

As long as you can demonstrate to domestic court at a later time, should it come to that, that you weren't squandering or squirreling away family assets, then the only realistic issue is her perception of your actions.

Ponder with your lawyer whether it's time to start putting your funds, such as your paycheck, into a separate personal account.  Then from there you can move any needed family funds into the family's joint account, or choose to pay your portion of the bills yourself directly from your personal account.  At some point that bridge has to be crossed, sadly.

Another sad fact is that JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) does not work with someone whose emotional perceptions overwhelm your facts and reasons.  There are several methods that can work to some extent — or fail miserably less often — one is BIFF (Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm).

You can pretty much count on her and her lawyer's filing to cast you in a negative light.  Perhaps as a sleazeball, deadbeat husband even if not directly stating so.  Will you get to see it before it is filed?  Do you have a proactive, experienced lawyer lined up?

Also, be on your absolute best behavior in the next few weeks, do nothing that could be twisted to make it appear you are abusive or mistreating her or the kids.  Don't let her actions (rants, rages, accusations, etc) trigger you into overreacting or even raising your voice.  Some lawyers love to start a case by filing protection/restraining claims forcing the other spouse to struggle with defense needs.

About the home... Long term it is possible that you cannot pay for your own residence as well as the house.  Possibly she can't afford the home on her own income.  What I'm saying is that if financially keeping the house is prohibitively costly for either of you, then accept that it ought to be sold.  Claims such as "the kids can't be moved or it will traumatize them" have no basis in fact.  Each year, so many families move from residence to residence and they're okay.

Yeeterr - I got a flashback of sorts - the day starting fine, and eventually being cornered and berated (although for me it was usually a low sound volume word salad blame-fest) But oh yes, I can understand. 
I agree with the above - stay absolutely unimpeachable in how you act, don't believe legal advice from the other side, and I'll add keep an eye on the self-care.  I'm glad to read that you did have enjoyable time with the kids. 
I'm facing almost inevitable parental alienation along the way if I go for divorce, but, I seem to be facing that anyway when I stay.  I'd suggest, keeping your eye on the prize so to speak.   Family time is golden.

Forever that is great insight.  And consistent with what I am preparing for.

Part of the anxiety for me is knowing what she is capable of, but know knowing how extreme she will take it.  I think Monday something will happen.  In the meantime, we are giving each other space and I have to say, since the audio recorder confrontation the attacks have subsided.

Still in the house under the advice of lawyers.  Unable to reach a rational parenting plan (no surprise, it only takes one to create conflict)

Various other dad's in town reached out to offer support.  Plus my direct friends and family.

Which is a key piece of getting through it.  Pull your support network close.  Use them. It is what they are there for.

Your situation is so identical to mine from three years ago including the problems I faced.  Like you I was not as aggressive as I should have been and it turned out her attorney was incredibly hard core.  Like you I ended up at 35 with heart problems and extreme anxiety due to the stresses.  Like you I had an affair so it was held over my head in court and with my kids.  I had to switch attorneys early on after our first child mediation made it clear that her promises of 50/50 were a lie and she was aiming for 75/25 and my attorney was just fine with that.

Put together a plan with the right attorney.  I am telling you right now that the only thing that stopped her in her tracks was the threat of subpoenas for her mental health records.  Even so, I still acquiesced and have some regrets that I gave up too much financially to someone who makes more than I do. 

As for the kids that was my biggest fear always.  After I got to move out with 50/50 custody, the smear campaign had already begun for D9/S12.  I asked to take them to counseling and ex agreed to it during divorce.  During parent meeting at counselor I told counselor what was happening along with wife using daughter as emotional crutch.  My ex who is very high functioning still made ridiculous statements that convinced the counselor in thirty minutes that she was disordered.  My ex became angry with the counselor and never attended or brought the kids again.  I did.  I asked the counselor to please help my kids deal with alienation pressures and stresses created by mom.  What a blessing it was.  It worked!  I still had to use techniques mentioned here to convince my kids not to use their mothers twisted splitting logic about me...but today my kids are happy and loving with me and prefer spending time with me.  They are also now fully aware of their mothers disorder although only in experience-I have never told them.

Life is so good and healthy on the other side of divorcing a BPD.
My only regret is I waited years.

Finally please be good to yourself.  Through my divorce I found a small handful of people I did not expect came to my aid along with my parents and sister.  The only people who understood were those closest to the epicenter.  Lean on those people.  Spend time with them.  I am still with my girlfriend who has taught me what a healthy relationship is like.  You will find that too if you try. 

One more thing:  I was scared to leave the family home for a crappy rental mid-divorce upon getting 50/50 custody.  I will tell you something though—the six months I spent in that house gave me feelings of empowerment and joy and reconnections in my own life that I will forever remember fondly.  Who would have thought?  Don’t be afraid of what things will look or feel like when you move out.  However it is, it will definitely be better.

If you select the My Settings tab, you'll see that you registered on 11/11/11.  (Sorry, it wasn't the 11th hour.)

With this step taken, you can now tell yourself this is your forward step to a new life.
 |iiii

Late May.  I moved out at the end of January with the standard 'dad schedule'.  One day a week and every other weekend.  Holidays, birthdays, vacations, etc... all still TBD.

Lockdown has made everything incredibly more difficult.

My middle will still not talk to me.  My wife continues to alienate and I can sense the two that do visit are engaging less and less (wife subltly undermines anything positive we get going together),

She has a condition where when she is emotionally triggered, it results in a physical trigger and her body goes into anaphylactic shock.  She swells up and even has to be hit with the Epi sometimes.  So this became a weapon during the time when I would not move out of the house until a parenting plan agreed to.  She worked herself into a state where she claimed I was trying to kill her, because I would not move out (knowing that she would react in this way).

So this is part of the message delivered to the kids.  That I intentionally tried to kill their mother.

And it is also used to prevent me from attending extra curriculars, parent teacher conferences, etc.  I can do those separately 1:1, but not if she is there.  And the kids have to chose which parent since we cant both be there at the same time.  So naturally they choose mom.

We havent been to court yet and my lawyers are trying to propose a 'settlement'.  My wife wants to push for more disclosure by subpoena of emails and all other records.  And she told me for the purpose of my daughters reading them some day, to know the person I really am.

It is the expected destruction on top of destruction.  With no consideration to the impact it has on our children.

And I keep asking for 'help'.  There is very little help.  The alienation coaches want to spend all energy documenting to prepare for court.  And my lawyers want to minimize it all and 'hope' the parents can just 'work it out'.  Naivety. 

Many people are quite supportive in spirit, but really have no practical recommendations.  Most things involve 'convincing my wife' of something.  There is no convincing her of anything, and I have just started cutting off the repeated recommendations that in any way suggest controlling her behavior. 

Even parenting plans are not enforceable after a certain age.  She is using that as the excuse for them to decide and choose to cut me out.

A my T says, 'she genuinely believe it'.  In terms of me being a bad influence on my children.

So its a complete mess.  My children are not doing well.  And the time I get with them is being marginalized. 

Lockdown prevents some of the emotional support of spending time with friends and family.  Plus I have to walk on tip toes to ensure everything is by the book, least she will try to block the time I do get with them.

Pretty lost.  Have cried for help to a number of people.  Nothing meaningful.

I am so sorry you are going through all of this however this:

And it is also used to prevent me from attending extra curriculars, parent teacher conferences, etc.  I can do those separately 1:1, but not if she is there.  And the kids have to chose which parent since we cant both be there at the same time.

You are allowed to go to any and all parental activities. Do not let her dictate your life. Show up, be involved. Do what you would normally have done. Extra curriculars sit on the opposite side but attend school events, conferences etc. 

We're here, yeeter.

Talk to us, friend.

We get what you're going through. It's people like you, going through this stuff you're going through, that I stay here for.

It's not going to seem like it right now, but it does get better.

It helps to keep posting and sharing.

Thanks LnL

Pacific. Not quite so simple.  At some point I will attend events again but in the short term, after discussing with teachers, they felt it best to allow the children to have the ‘safe haven’ of the school environment.  Vs carting mom off in an ambulance in the middle of school play because their father showed up. That type of thing.  Lockdown has actually simplified this since everything virtual and can be watched remotely for all

And now I am becoming nervous about my posts here being discovered.  My understanding is I can not change my moniker... if wife finds this site she will figure it out. It was chosen a long time ago and since has become a moniker used for other stuff

But posting helps.  Some.  And allows a place to vent without wearing out my other support group (some of which are tired of hearing about it I can tell)

Her own family is quite upset over the behavior. Using the kids as weapons and alieanating behavior and she doesn’t even know she is doing these things (yes, why it is called a disorder!)


 

I am so sorry that you are in that situation.  I can understand the badmouthing and brainwashing. It seems like no matter what some of us do, there's always the STBX spin on things. 
My kids for a while, genuinely thought I was hellbound when I got a tattoo. Plus, told that dad (myself) gives them no money for food, won't let them go to a friends house, etc.  All subtle.  If you try to fight it, you come off looking like the psychopath.  I know, I get it.  I am so sorry.
I suggest keeping up the self-care as much as you can.  It's a long haul.  We are survivors and not victims - if we grow though what we go through. My prayer is that kids learn to see crazy and understand it for themselves.

Well I am going to try posting some more in hopes it helps me.  There really are very few answers, and very little practical help in all this.  Lockdown due to corona makes everything much much more difficult, including self care but also in terms of what is possible with my kids.

It is mid June.  I moved out of the house at the end of January.  My wife has explained to my children that by me staying the house, knowing she would trigger a physical reaction, that I literally and intentionally tried to kill her.  That their father literally tried to kill their mother. 

This also blocks any participation with their extra curricular as the school year wound down.  If she sees me (line of sight), she will become so upset that her body triggers into an anaphylaxis state and she may need to go to the ER (she did call the squad car once due to this).  It is a real thing, in that her body really does swell up.  It is triggered by emotional deregulation.

Middle child, D13 has cut me out of her life.  She will not participate in the parenting plan to spend time with me.  She has stated she doesnt like me, doesnt like spending time with me or doing things with me.  Additionally she has stated that all the things we did together previous over the years, that she never really wanted to do it was just what I wanted.  The entire history of our relationship has been rewritten.

Youngest, D11/12, is participating in the parenting plan but is becoming more distant each week.  There is a pattern, every time we do something together and have fun (roller blading, hiking, etc..), the next week after being at moms she no longer wants to do those things with me.  So when she does come she has started just hanging out in her room doing crafts or watching youtube alone, and doesnt want to do anything with me.  We at one time were really close/tight.

Son (16) was a breakthrough, on a positive note.  He is just overwhelmed by everything and with the school going virtual, he had completely stopped doing any homework.  Finally, at the very last week, he  opened up to me enough to let me help organize and plan what work would be needed to pass 10th grade.  He is considered one of the smartest kids in his grade, but had accepted that he would flunk the school year and he 'might' try to make it up in the summer.  Wife was coming down on him hard, until one of the counselors advised her that 'there are worse things than flunking 10th grade'.  She backed off a little.  But at the 11th hour he kicked it in and once he saw some hope to finishing he managed to do just enough to pass.  Major disaster averted.  And a breakthrough between us.

Wifes latest narrative is that I spent thousands of dollars on online porn (no basis for this) and is calling around letting friends and family know this.  She is against mediation and family counseling.  Her latest narrative is that I am a pathological liar and a narcissist.  That nothing I say or have ever said can be trusted.  That I have gaslighted (her term) my children for years.  That if I ever really loved them I would not have done the things I have done.

I watch D12 slip away more with each passing week.  The counseling that my wife arranged for both of my daughters is deemed finished and they no longer need it.

There is  little help.  I have engaged parent coaching help - much of it is woefully ill equipped for such dynamics.  I do have another one scheduled but all the counselors are very busy these days so it is later this month before a first session even.  (couple other sessions I had were disasters).

My lawyers are 'ok'.  They are expensive and try to save $ by only spending time when needed.  But they say outright that the courts are poorly equipped to help much.

The biggest help has come from her own family.  They deeply care about the children, have experienced some of my wifes behavior first hand in the past, and genuinely want to help.  But again... how?  There is limited influence they have (she has stated when it comes down to saving the relationship with her brother or protecting her children, her children come first).

As my therapist said, 'she genuinely believes it'.  In terms of the need to protect her children against a threat, and in her mind I am a threat.

Also she very much wants to have me out of her and the kids lives in every way so she can go on with her life with them, as a family, as if I never existed. 

So its not a particularly healthy approach, nor healthy for children. 

We have yet to get to a pretrial.  With some pressure by her lawyers she agreed to attempted mediation, which is required substantial 'disclosure' documents.  One element of disclosure is that she is pushing for all emails, phone records, location data, etc etc having to do with the affair, which she stated to me that she wanted to 'show my daughters, so they would know the type of person I really am'.   That hasnt yet happened however, since I believe it will be damaging to my children (and also my wife), I will not willingly participate in that disclosure without a court order (she is likely to get this as a means to discover if substantial assets were spent misappropriately).

I have stayed away from any attacks in the interest of keeping emotions as calm as possible to help with mediation have a chance.  If we do go to trial (seems she is determined to press for), then we have a GAL already appointed.  The family are suggesting this is the only path to help the kids.  I am starting to think that more and more as well.  I did make a settlement offer that was in her favor (would rather give her money than lawyers money), which included family counseling.  But I expect this will be rejected and even counseling is usually not helpful for her.  As you all know finding someone that recognizes what is going on is difficult, and she is a master at hiding her behaviors.

I struggle to sit and watch a second child slip away.  I ask anyone and everyone I can think of for help, but nobody has any ideas on how.  Some do recognize some of the issues, but are at a loss to know how to help.  She is the mother.  She has the majority of time with the kids, and can program them in whatever way she feels like.  Her position is 'of course they would want to minimize contact with you after the way you treated them'. 

The ironic part is, none of this is unexpected.  I even told my lawyers everything that has happened is no surprise.  I had filed for divorce in 2011 just before finding this site and decided not to go through with it then because I knew this is what would happen.  She told me then if I went through with divorce I would never see my kids again.  I believed her.  Yes I have always been afraid of her because I knew what she was capable of.  So I have seen this coming for many years now, and there is still nothing I could do to prevent it.  And there is no help.

Even my own therapist, knowing how upset I am over it, has suggested I have to work on accepting the reality of losing my children and moving on with my life.  Not to give up, but certainly it is possible (happening) and dont let yourself be destroyed in the process.  They may come back in a few years.

Anway, just needed to write some of this out hoping it helps me cope/deal with it better.

 :heart:

Unless your state is one of the few that do allow infidelity to be a factor in a divorce - not a no-fault divorce state - then that attempt to paint you bad may fall on deaf ears.

In my case we had first completed the court's social worker's parenting investigation but it was explained to me that although social workers could report about parenting (and mine recommended I get increased time) they weren't certified to recommend anything about custody.  It required an expert Custody Evaluation to provide a good overview to the court.  My lawyer told me the CE we chose was the most qualified in the county.

Most cases here certainly aren't as frightful as yours, especially where the disinformation and alienation are so extreme.  It is situations like this - so much drama - where I wonder whether Histrionic PD can be added to the stbEx's suspected list of disorders.  Have you looked into that possibility?  Not that this will make much difference to the court, they typically ignore seeking medical or mental health diagnosis, but this may help you to adapt your legal and parenting strategies.

Though these are dark days, you establishing a separate and stable home is good for you and can be a beacon to the kids as a calm destination, eventually.

We've all had similar distresses in our separations and divorces but over time we did discern a light at the end of the tunnel. :hug:

That has to be exquisitely painful to hear, not to mention experience.

What would you consider "giving up" might look like?

What kinds of things did the parent coach recommend, what didn't work?

My husband has three adult children (21, 23, 26) and has been divorced from his BPDxw for 6 years. The kids are all in various stages of recovery from alienation. What I notice is that they all seemed to begrudgingly turn to H as adulthood became more and more challenging. They couldn't rely on mom. Similar to what you describe with your son.

One surprising thing I noticed with them is that H got healthier after the divorce and started to have self-respect and some boundaries. The oldest had a tantrum that shocked me (for her age, and the force of it), and he got angry in response, a controlled kind of anger, because she was treating him like a piece of sh!t and then getting mad at him.

Same with the middle child. She would treat him the way her mom taught her to, and he said nope. Not doing this. She seem to have BPD traits and has an exceptional sense of what she can get away with.

I think all 3 kids have become curious about this new, improved different H, he wasn't behaving the way their mom described him and that was puzzling.

Sometimes I'll get a whiff of contempt from them toward their dad but it's odd... It's more likely to happen when they're getting everything they want. When he draws a line or stands up for something he feels they seem to respond with a mixture of respect and ... fear? vulnerability?

What kind of relationships do the kids have with their mom?

Yes. It's beyond painful. There are ways in which we are, and (more so) have been in your position. I both want to suggest some ideas, and want to challenge myself to reach out and share your pain.

Have you contacted Dr. Craig Childress? Mostly I suggest to people here to just read his stuff. Your situation sounds more like a "get in touch in person" scenario. Also Ryan Thomas (I think).

You're in pain as you watch your children slip away from you and more under Mom's spell. And of course their mom justifies it as "only natural"... even though it's not. In fact, it's unnatural and unhealthy, but she is milking it for her own benefit. It's all about Mom, not about her caring about the kids.

I wish I could do more for you. All I can say is that we have one kiddo who went from saying to DH "You're not my family" to spending extra time with him. It took a long time but it happened. We have another who is pulling away some, though not totally. They ebb and flow. The feelings of rejection are real and cutting and destabilizing. I wish I could fix it, for us and you.

It's been said that children do better when they do have reasonable limits, they like to know where they stand.  Must be a variation on the tough love concept?  Eventually, maybe.

To be clear, neither myself nor my T is suggesting to give up on my children.

Thanks for all the insights.  I do like the Childress material.  And if you read some of the coaching on parent/child dynamic it comes out as maintaining the parent as the power figure.  I think this plays into the dynamic where the children do better with structure.  After all, it is much easier to live when you have clear/defined boundaries being given and you dont need to think so much for your self to figure it out.

Plus it maintains an element of respect.

Else you just get trampled over and not respected.

Still a long ways to go.  Put my own lifevest on first.  Remain stable, and set a steady and consistent course.  (repeating to myself all the advice I try to give others!)   :heart:

Something occurred to me about your oldest who is estranged.

It's possible that she is getting enough information about you from others that she doesn't feel the estrangement, if that makes sense.

I experienced this when I was estranged from my dad for 7 years. My mom conveyed  information between both parties so that it was almost like she stabilized the estrangement.

Your other kids might be doing that for the oldest.

In my family, I made micro-adjustments in what and how I communicated, and to whom, that kind of starved the estrangement.

Those adjustments seemed to make sense given my family dynamic.

Impeding the flow of information seemed to be what led to (extremely small but meaningful) changes in how my dad received the reestablishment of our relationship.

My sense is that the pain of knowing pretty much nothing about my life became unbearable. Not because he loves me to pieces or missed me, because it's hard to tell with him what he feels, if anything, but for what I consider to be narcissistic reasons (his friends ask what I'm up to and he doesn't know, which reflects poorly on him).

I think a trial and a GAL for the kids may be your best bet.

It is abuse for your ex to show the children details about parental discord.  I hope you have documentation of her saying that she would show proof of your affair to your children.  The courts, at least where I live, *hate* when parents drag kids into conflict and generally do what they can to stop it.