BPDFamily.com

I've been posting on the Bettering and Conflicting boards, but am hoping to get a bit more insight regarding my kids/parenting here, if anyone cares to jump in with advice.  This stems from my therapy appointment yesterday, where my T switched gears suddenly to talking about *should* I decide to leave I can/should get full custody.  I was a bit taken aback because we had never explicitly talking about my staying vs. leaving before (I've seen her for about 6 months or so), and our recent visits she had been talking about my progress with setting boundaries and helping the kids.  My T did say that she has another patient who is seeking full custody of her baby, with her ex-boyfriend suspected of having BPD.  Apparently the court did a psych eval and "quickly" diagnosed him with BPD even though he's brilliant and a smooth talker, and the court appears to be giving the mom full custody.  I explained that from what I read here, getting full custody is a loong, at times painful, process, with lots of documented proof of the damage to the kids, or unreliability on the parent wBPD's part, etc. and that most psych evals don't come up with 'You're BPD and shouldn't be around the kids!' conclusions.  My T thought perhaps because we're in a more progressive state where mental health care is handled better than in other areas there are better results here. 

Background on my H (for those who don't spend time on the other boards): he's been diagnosed with major depressive disorder and PTSD.  He's been seeing the same therapist for nearly 12 years and has been on just about every antidepressant the industry makes.  We grew up together and have been married for over 16 years.  He's always had larger emotional ups and downs, but the cycles of dysregulation/rage/suicidal ideations (and sometimes homicidal ideations) have really ramped up in the last 2 1/2 years.  We have an 11 year old daughter and 4 year old son.  Before I knew any of the potential BPD stuff, I did give him an ultimatum last summer that he either get serious help for his rage, or I'm done.  He agreed and was part of an inpatient program at a very reputable psychiatric hospital for just shy of 3 weeks.  While he was there, he was put in a program with fellow first responders.  It was the social worker at the hospital who first mentioned BPD to me and suggested I read Stop Walking on Eggshells, which eventually led me here.   Once he got home from the hospital, nothing changed.  Dysregulations are every week or two, 60% or so of which end up in rage incidents and can last for 12 hours or 2 or 3 days.  I'm working on my boundaries and trying my best to protect the kids (I have always tried to protect them, that's not new; just new tools to use).  There has never been any physical violence against us, thankfully, but there has been hitting walls (he kicked out the bottom of a storm door once).  Any time he starts dysregulating, I ask our oldest to play with her little brother in the other room so they don't hear what he says.  I stay calm, listen and try to validate, and then remove myself and spend time with the kids so they don't feel isolated or sequestered.  If there's any violence (like breaking the door) the kids and I leave until he calms down.   With one exception, all SI and HI have been done when the kids are not around or are already in bed.  When he's raging he can be rude to the kids (barking orders at them), and did call our son a jerk to his face once.  There' is tension in the house when he's dysregulating, which I hate, but I work hard to make sure they don't hear he's saying.

I've been debating for a long, long time about staying vs. leaving.  If I leave, despite what my T says, I don't believe that the court would give me full custody, even with a psych eval done (for all these years his therapist hasn't believed me that the rage is in fact rage; the hospital that suggested BPD to me backtracked and, according to my H, said he wasn't BPD; he passed a psych eval with flying colors to return to work).  I do keep a written log at my work about the dysregulations/rage.  When my H isn't raging (or badly dysregulating) he's a great dad, and the kids do truly love him.  I feel like I am doing a okay-ish job of protecting the kids, explaining what's going on in age-appropriate terms, validating their feelings, etc. and I'm there to observe and shield the kids if needed.  I am willing to sacrifice anything (even if it's a protracted, expensive court battle) if it means giving them the best shot at having a decent life; I just feel like no matter what I pick it's going to be the wrong thing. 

Is there a question in this rambling  lol?  I guess it's just a matter of wondering if I'm doing irreparable damage to my kids by staying - at this point.  Though my T did not say that in any way, I just felt like a total failure after talking to her yesterday; that I'm not doing enough (again, she didn't actually say that).   The topic was just so out of the blue it caught me off guard, and left me feeling kind of shattered.  If I am being an ostrich with her head buried in the sand and I should be filing for divorce/full custody to save those kids, I'd rather someone just tell me straight out. If  anyone has suggestions, or was a kid with a parent with BPD and can look back and say what would have been best...  I'll take anything I can get. 

Hi Ray, welcome to this board!

In general, courts tend to look at behaviors and not diagnoses when they are looking at custody.  SI and HI should impact custody.    Other behaviors are judged based on how they impact the children.

Are your kids in therapy?  If you're questioning whether the environment is bad for them, it might be a good idea to have them each see a T (your little one can see a registered play therapist).  The T can give you feedback on how the kids are handling the stresses in your home life and what else you can do to help them.

My H's ex is uBPD.  They had 50/50 custody of their daughter from ages 2 to 10.  We operated under the principle of "she's a good mom, except..."   We finally realized that the rages and meltdowns were being directed at SD when she was with her mom, and that there was significant emotional abuse and manipulation (including constant disparagement of H and me).  The exceptions outweighed the "good mom" part.  SD showed many signs of stress - nervous tics, constant runny nose, irritable, jumpy - so H got her a T and filed for primary custody. 

SD is now 12, and our boundaries are tight.  Mom can't text her and is limited to 2 supervised phone calls a week.  Mom only sees SD 4 days a month, from 10 am - 6 pm.   SD's stress behaviors are gone now, and SD is happy with the new schedule. I regret that we didn't protect her sooner.

I grew up with a dad who had PTSD and anger issues (and worked shift work so he was always tired).  There were epic rages. He left when I was 17.  The next day, I packed up all his stuff and put it out on the lawn so he wouldn't try to move back home.  I deliberately provoked his anger and ensured he wouldn't come home in order to protect my mom and my little sister.  I managed to build a decent relationship with my dad as an adult - my boundaries were pretty strong - but my childhood was chaotic.  I spent a lot of time in my room with a book, because that was at least 80% effective at me not getting yelled at.

Hi Ray,

I don't have an answer to your larger question, but I wanted to comment on your T's remarks about the court giving you full custody...  My T will occasionally comment on my ongoing custody struggle and pending divorce. I try to remember that she means well but she is not a legal expert. Sometimes she contradicts things my attorney has said or is flat out wrong. I file my T's legal advice in the same place as legal advice from friends and family, lol.

Just a thought.

dt9000

worriedStepmom - my kids aren't in therapy currently.  Our 11 year old did do a couple sessions with a therapist because she had sleep issues (insomnia, sleepwalking - dating back since she was a baby/toddler.  She slept through the night for the first time at 4).  Her sleep did improve and the therapist moved out of network, so we didn't follow up to find a new therapist.  I could easily convince my H to get her into therapy again because she does have anxiety from school, but I don't know that he would go along with our son seeing a therapist.  I would like direct advice from professionals that work with kids.  I'll keep thinking about this one and what we can do.  I do ask their teachers (without sharing exactly why I'm asking) how they're acting in school - any red flags, etc., and they both come back with flying colors.  But they're not exactly looking for the same things.  Our 11 year old does ask me how dad's mood is when I've been around him and she's been at school or at a friends, so I know it's on her radar.  But neither are showing obvious, outward signs of stress regarding the tension/his behavior - at this point.  I will keep the lookout.  Talking about SI (and the few references to HI - he hasn't vocalized that to me once after I reported it to my T, who reported it to his T, who told him) is something he absolutely knows not to do in front of the kids.  He tried a veiled reference in front of them once and that is a line, that if crossed again, would make me walk right out the door (kids and dogs in tow).  Most of the reason I stay is because I can take/deflect the rage/manipulation/gas lighting that can happen...  I know they feel the tension, but don't hear the words.  If I didn't get full custody, or it took a forever to get it, they would have to live through the "proof" I would need to collect that it was damaging to them.  That's what I'm afraid of - on their behalf. 

dt9000 - thank you for mentioning that, and you are right. She does have limited experience with court cases, and the ruling hasn't been made yet, either.  Maybe she got excited because she sees a potentially successful case of getting full custody.  I was just afraid she was telling me (in a round about way) that I need to do the same, when I don't feel like I'd have the same success, and then the kids would lose a nearly round the clock advocate in me (work and school hours excepted).  But I don't want to NOT do something out of fear and end up making things worse. 

If your H is having HI, is he safe to be around the kids, even if he doesn't make those comments in front of them?
 
Yes, it was pretty miserable for the 18 months that we were gathering evidence against SD's mom and working to get custody.  For a while, she was seeing her T every week or two, and there was So. Much. Dysregulation.  It even seeped down to my biokids (SD's mom split my S10 black and called the cops).

In our case, SD saw that we were working to protect her.  She saw, very clearly, that her mom was the problem.   She came out of it okay.  For the next 6 years, she has just enough contact with her mom to maintain a relationship without being abused, and she has absolute faith in her dad.  It's beautiful to watch their relationship.

That's obviously not the case for everyone.  SD's mom's attempts at alienating her from us failed.

Hi Ray2017, I remember tracking some of your posts over on Conflicted.

 
Just zooming in on some detail stuff for a moment... how is S4's sleep/anxiety behaviors? I wonder if there's any way to frame it as "well, we're getting D11 some assistance with X again; let's get S4 in there "for an assessment" or "to rule out XYZ" just to make sure he'll be on track for kindergarten" or whatnot. Maybe that would buy you a couple of sessions.

Is S4 in preschool/pre-K/daycare type something? Is there a school counselor on site wherever he is?

Brainstorming ways to get professional eyes on him if you suspect H wouldn't support it.

Cheers;

kells76

Thanks, worriedStepmom - the HI has only (I hate saying only) been directed at his co-workers and a former friend, and only said to me.  He's never moved a muscle to act on them, and he knows I WILL call 911 if he tries to leave the house after vocalizing HI.  He loves the kids tremendously, and I don't worry that he would hurt them.  If I left and filed for full custody, well, I'll be honest, I would be afraid for me.  If I decided to leave, it would have to be done very carefully and very well planned out.  But the kids - I really do trust that he wouldn't hurt them.  I hope I'm not being naive.  My T has said many times that she doesn't think we are in danger of physical violence with the status quo - she keeps saying that past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior (with obvious exceptions to every rule), and my H has never physically hurt anyone - reaching back into childhood (I've known him since he was 3 years old).  I hope it doesn't sound like I'm making excuses or downplaying the HI.  Even though it's been a couple months at least since the last vocalized HI, it's a common topic in my T appointments because I don't want to mess around with it or do the wrong thing, or put anyone, especially my kids, in danger.  However, my most day to day worry is that they will observe his volatile moods and either think that's normal and in the future form damaging relationships themselves, or start to emulate the volatility as well (especially our son). 

Hi kells76 - S4 sleeps like a log and always has.  He has gotten a little aggressive IMO (I am an only child, and none of my friends growing up had little brothers, so my frame of reference is limited here) in the last few months, but his preschool teacher said that is very common with his age, and as he's in an integrated preschool (it's in the local elementary school; our son is a "community friend", meaning cognitively typical, and many of his classmates have special needs); all of the boys in his class are there for behavioral issues, and his teacher thinks he may be copying some of their behaviors at home.  The elementary school does have a guidance counselor, though she wouldn't work with the preschoolers, but when he starts kindergarten in the fall, he would fall under her jurisdiction.  I work diligently with S4 on the behaviors, but perhaps after a bit of time, mention to H that I'm not making as much progress as I'd like and see if  T could help S4 with his aggression?  I'm not sure it would work, but I guess it's worth a try. 

Thanks for the suggestions/support.  I really appreciate it!

When you seek legal advice from a few family law attorneys — consultations are free or relatively inexpensive — try to get a solid concept on how your state and county approaches custody and parenting schedules.  Often they are separate items but some states blend them more than others.

https://statelaws.findlaw.com/family-laws/child-custody.html
https://family.findlaw.com/child-custody/child-custody-summaries-of-state-laws.html

Full custody generally means you have legal authority of the children in major decisions such as religion, school, health, etc.  Many courts are reluctant to start off with that unless there are clear reasons to do so.  No reason to fret.  If your court wants to start with joint custody then you can give reasons why you need Decision Making or Tie Breaker status which is effectively almost the same thing.

Sounds like your concern is also about having better-than-typical control over the parenting schedule.  (Just getting full custody won't automatically end visits.)  What if his time is scheduled on a day he flames out?  So your eventual court order would require some conditional language where you could step in to adjust the schedule to handle such incidents.

The others here are correct, since most of us never got an official diagnosis  — great if you do — we do what the courts pay attention to, document the poor behaviors.  This is a case where actions mean more than words on a paper.  So log or journal the poor behaviors and events.  It's not bad to do so, courts will generally ignore as hearsay vague claims of "he always..." or "she always..."

Thanks, Forever Dad.  I have been quietly reading the advice here should I seek a divorce.  I'm not at that point yet - I'm just really worried that I'm doing irreparable, terrible damage to the kids by trying to make this family work, at least for the time being.  It's always been a fear, but after my T visit yesterday, it got that much worse.  To clarify, what I believe the gist of what my T was saying - get sole custody and only have supervised visitation for him with the kids.  I know I didn't specify that - my wording wasn't clear.  I just don't feel like that's realistic, and I'm afraid it could end up backfiring.  I'm afraid to try at this point.  But if that's truly what's best for the kids, I'll do it.  I guess I'm just trying to ascertain if that is the right thing to do.  And probably no one can really answer that question but me.  Thus asking for advice here - thank you to all! 

This is hard, but I think everyone knows that. :) 

In my case.  Yes.  Damage with 2 oldest kids.  I stayed too long.  They witnessed way too much of the dynamics of a toxic relationship, experienced way too much verbal abuse, some physical abuse.  I left when they were 15 and 13.  Now both in college, have cut all contact with me.  Oldest says he does not know what is happiness or how to be happy.  I allowed my ex to berate the kids in such awful ways in the name of 'discipline'.  Oldest kids treat me  now the way they saw my ex treat me. 

Kids least affected are the youngest,  They are the ones who have did not witness the toxic household. 

I lost kids in divorce despite a custody Eval stating I was the stable parent and wife had a PD and alienated the kids.  .  Court T testified that also at court.  Judge ruled in wife's favor as she was a stay at home mom of 7 and we had 2 special need kids. 

I appealed and lost judge ruling and lost.  I was devastated.
 Then 3 months after appeal, xbpdwife emailed me saying she did not want kids at all.  Only wanted to see them 30 days in summer.  She only lives 10 min from my home.  My lawyer wrote everything up and she signed. 

Now going on 8 months, kids are doing very well.  Middle kids who were moderately impacted now much better.  2 oldest still do not talk with me. 

My situation:  I stayed way too long.  Oldest kids severely damaged still. 
 Sluggo

Hi - Your instincts are good. I think you know more about custody than your T. It is very hard to get full custody. Every situation, judge, and state is different, of course,   but people tend to be naive about this type of thing, even therapists. My ex husband has BPD and it's not an easy road coparenting with him. I wish you luck. I hate that you have to ask your daughter to keep your son busy while your H is raging. But people like you are put in a tough position. At least while you're there, you can kinda protect the kids. I know most people would say "Run fast! Stop exposing them to this!" but only you know for sure whether it's better to stay or go. I think you have to kind of see if it's getting worse. Don't feel you have to decide everything right away, but maybe have a plan if you need one.
Oh, I should add that I can see how the T appointment made you doubt yourself. But again, your T is not a lawyer, as someone said above. In a perfect world, you'd get the kids, leave, and your ex would have supervised visitation. I think what you are doing now is smart: Moving slowly, doing research, not leaving just yet. Trying to make the family "work" (such as it is) gives you time to plan. Once you start a divorce, it's hard to go back. So if you're not in physical danger, and the kids are not, it won't hurt to stay until you think you have no choice but to leave.

Thanks, Sluggo and Momtara, for your stories and thoughts.  Didn't mean to disappear - my dad has some complications with his cancer treatments and was in the hospital a couple hours away over the weekend.  It's always something!

My next therapy appointment is in less than a week.  I'm truly interested to see if she starts again on the full custody thing, or if it was just an idea based on her other client, and we talk about something else.  But having the validation that therapists are in fact not lawyers (and I should know, I work for lawyers) has been really helpful.  It makes me feel less panicky or that I've been shirking the obvious course of action.

Thanks to everyone for their replies/support!

There was research shared here a while back about the mental health diagnoses of kids who have a BPD parent. I'll keep looking. I remember it showed that our kids are likely to have a higher rate of mental health disorders like ADHD, anxiety, depression, OCD, PTSD. There's also research about the presence of autism and BPD in family legacies.

People with BPD have a biological component that makes it hard to regulate emotions, and that leads to all kinds of problems with attachment and interpersonal effectiveness, with many aspects that cannot be hidden from kids -- even when you scoot the kids into another room they are absorbing the lesson that anger is scary. They might even be learning that mom thinks they cannot handle distress.

I tried to hide n/BPDx's rages and alcohol abuse from my son (who is now 18) and it turns out not much got by that kid  :( 

When you think about it, it's pretty hard to hide parental behavior from kids when they're living under the same roof. They might not know precisely, but they know.

The best advice I got was to validate my son's emotions. Actually, just learning the language of emotions, how they work in me, what he felt, how he expressed it, what I taught to my son, what he needed, all of that was profoundly helpful. My ex was dangerous so standing up to him wasn't something I felt strong enough to do in the marriage, but when I left my backbone seemed to grow back in and my son saw that.

Your kids are definitely going to be impacted by having a parent with a serious mental health illness. If you feel scared, their nervous systems will feel even more so. Humans can handle a lot so the key is to learn the language and practice of managing intense and negative emotions. I wish my therapist had encouraged me to do family counseling with my son, not just individual therapy for him and for me. With his current T, we often spend the session together and it's been very healing for both of us, if I can presume to know how he feels. He keeps opening the door for it so I walk through, and together we spend the hour trying to puzzle together what we went through. It's not always easy.

He did say to me months ago, "I wish you had protected me sooner." It is both a statement of love and trust "you did protect me" and disappointment "not soon enough." I'm thankful for the first part because that underscores whether he feels safe with at least someone.

This is an odd book to recommend but for some reason your story makes me think of it: When Your Daughter Has BPD by Lobel. Unlike a lot of other books about BPD, he focuses on the family system more than other books I've read, and how BPD behaviors can create the urge to avoid the family unit instead of participating in it.

There are also some helpful resources here: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When One Parent Has BPD.  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.msg1331459#msg1331459)

This  board is a good place to share and learn.  :hug:

Thanks Livenlearned - I appreciate your backstory and the link.  I've read it before, but I find re-reading helps hammer the points home and I always pick up on something that I missed before.

I know my kids definitely know that there's rage/dysregulation going on - absolutely no hiding that, and I don't try to.  I have them go in another room to play so they don't hear what's being said by him (so much of it is inflammatory and untrue). I don't want them influenced by what he said, like thinking of a loved one in a bad light because they think he's telling the truth; when they get older, I know they'll be able to differentiate what's correct and what the rage is spewing; in fact, I'd bet our older child could already do that; I'm worried for the little guy.  During/after the dysregulations/rages I try and discuss how we feel at the time, and try to explain in an age appropriate way what's going on (often two different, but harmonious, explanations because the age difference is larger).  That being said, I'm sure I could do more...  Any suggestions for in the trenches?  Is having them hang out in a different spot not a good idea? 

My SD was 5-6 when she figured out that mom's statements about people didn't necessarily match reality.  (This was mostly mom's rants about me.)  I did a LOT of validation of her emotions about what she experienced.  "How do you feel when mom says things like that?  What do YOU think?" and praising her for thinking through things and sharing her opinions and perceptions.  Our goal was to help SD trust her own perceptions and see through some of the gaslighting. 

Now, at 12, she knows her mom's statements about H and me are untrue, but they hurt her.  I think she sees those statements as direct personal attacks against SD as well as against H.  She will do almost anything to prevent her parents from being in the same room to protect H.  He's detached and doesn't care, but SD doesn't understand that.  For your oldest, I'd make sure to reassure her as much as possible that she doesn't have to protect you or S4.  That's your job.

 

You probably have fine-tuned instincts for whether it's safe to assert yourself when he's raging so that will rest with your own strength and resilience in the moment.

As for working with the kids on lies and whatnot, best results with my son seemed to come from asking validating questions. "Daddy said I cheated on him. Do you know what he means when he says cheating?"

"How did that make you feel when you hear daddy say that?"

"Do you have any questions for me?"

"Are you worried about anything that daddy said?"

I did get better at asserting myself directly with the verbal abuse during the end of our marriage, but I also knew it was coming to an end and had reached my absolute limit. Our house was small and being in separate rooms made my son scared in a different way. Maybe it would've been different if he had a sibling with him, I don't know.

We have to be patient and gentle with ourselves -- I could not have done anything faster than I did it, for practical and emotional reasons. I was ready when I was ready to handle things more assertively and openly, and you will be too.  :hug: