BPDFamily.com

 :help:
This is my story: She is one of my best friends. 1 year and a half ago we had intimate encounters. She is a lesbian and I am fluid. I love her very much and I want to be there to support her, but I don't like her that way nor do I want to continue doing that. Every time I tried to stop it and hoping for that not to happen again, it somehow ended up happening because she would either make a huge scene of how she would die without it or convinced me that she was fine and it was just having fun and she knew it was going to be over or would not leave me alone until I conceded. I felt (still feel) terrible every time, like I am not in control and somehow being abused, but conflicted because I also let it happen when I clearly didn't want to, but I am not able to stand up for myself and say no, so I went back to the same cycle.

We used to live together and when she saw me with another person she used to enter into my room and kick them out. I eventually moved out (after a huge fight) and she started seeing a therapist and was diagnosed with BDP. After I moved out things got a lot better and we started to have more boundaries - but somehow we are back in this loop again and I really want to end it. We work together so I have to see her (now online) everyday. And I still love her very much and want to be there for her as a friend, I just really don't want to go back to that again and every time I bring it up it ends up being a huge scene where she cries, she insults me, she understands and then tries to convince me again. Now I have told her and stopped it again, and because of the COVID-19 situation we won't be seeing each other in person for a while, but I don't know how to handle this from now on.

Has anyone been in a similar situation? How did you keep being friends while respecting your boundaries on intimacy?

Hi there! It sounds like what you've been going through with your friend has been really difficult. Although you are unsure how to manage things going forward, I just want to say that I think you managed things really well in the past. It's really great that you took the decision to move out before, and were able to set some boundaries. Well done on taking a stand there - it must have been really difficult so give yourself a pat on the back.

It does sound really difficult though that you have to see her at work and that you have found yourself sort of back in the cycle of pressure that she's putting on you.  Of course it's not okay that she's doing this, it never is, and it is very valid that you have at times felt abused. I would feel the same way if my boyfriend and I broke up and he pressured me in this way - it sounds really unpleasant to have to deal with.

This has never happened to me before with my partner, but I have had to negotiate unwanted advances from friends before, and I know how awkward and tricky and horrible it can feel. I don't know about you, but in the past I've just wanted them to snap out of it so we can go on being good friends and having a lovely friendship without all the tension!

I can't give you advice based on experience, because this exact thing hasn't happened to me, but I would say that maybe having this physical distance between you whilst you're all working online will enable her to come to terms with you being just friends. Perhaps, like before when you moved out and had physical separation, this period of isolation will allow her to take a step back and re-evaluate.

 The only other thing I can suggest is just living with total, complete, unashamed honesty - with both yourself and with your friend. With yourself, you have to set boundaries. What am I going to put up with? What is my limit? What will I do if the limit is reached? For instance you could decide that you will tolerate light flirting, but if she attempts to touch you in more than a friendly way, then you will leave the room. Or you will tolerate her asking you if you'll consider doing more with her, but if she tries to make a move, or tries to pressure you, or use techniques of manipulation to pressure you, or doesn't take the 3rd no for an answer (or whatever - you pick you boundaries in advance!) then you leave the space, or do not speak to her for a while. In short: decide where the line is in advance, go over it in your head, and then in person, if she crosses the line - walk out. Boundaries are about what you will tolerate - be honest with yourself about what you will accept, what you will not accept, and what you will do if the line is crossed. You don't share these boundaries with her - they are yours and you just act them out depending on how she behaves. When boundaries like this are put into practise, the first few times, the other person WILL test them. It's how people work - babies will test and test and test the limits of their parents to see how far they can go. When they get told off, children know that they went past the limit. This is how we navigate the world as we grow up, work out what we can and can't do. But setting boundaries as adults, the same applies. There will be backlash, she will test your new boundaries - your strength might upset her. Just stick with it - after a few times, it will sink in, and you can even decide if you want to negotiate your limits to suit you both, and whatever works best so that you can work and be friends harmoniously. It all starts with honesty - honest with yourself about what you are willing to put up with, and honesty and consistency with her - acting out truthfully the actions you decided you would do when mentally setting your boundaries. You have to stick to them, be honest in the moment - the boundary needs to be enacted a few times for it to work, even if it feels like a bomb goes off the first couple of times you enforce your limits. Again, you don't need to say anything, tell her anything about your own personal limit setting, just act it out, live it out truthfully.

If after this you still feel like you're getting sucked into the cycle, it might be time to organise with her a limit-set conversation. This would be the sort of conversation where you have to discuss things in order to move on with the friendship. You might say to her, 'we need to have an honest and adult conversation about how we both feel in order for us to stay friends. Please could we talk about this? If you want to continue the friendship then let's talk through this, but it has to be without any shouting, fighting, etc (or whatever usually gets in the way)'. Then proceed, if she agrees (if not then it might mean the friendship itself isn't of value to her enough than her playing with your consent) to talk about what you are unhappy with in her behaviour, why, and what you need to change in order to stay friends, and what you want. And encourage her to do the same, and validate one another throughout, understand where each other come from. Hopefully you can come to an understanding without a fight breaking out. But if it does, or if she becomes shouty, abusive, on the attack - then reaffirm that you will only have this conversation quietly, understandingly, politely, and it cannot go on in fight-form. End the conversation and ask to try again when you are both ready to do it calmly. This way, you are able to actually honestly communicate, get out on the table what you do want and do not want, and see if you can move forwards as friend. If not, then you can try again later. If it's not ever possible without her abusing your or not respecting the limits of the conversation, then there is only so much you can do! Then it might be time to consider whether the friendship is worth engaging in. But give these things a try, if you like! I hope it helps!

I do hope that the social distancing as of late will encourage your friend to take a step back and get more used to the idea of you being just friends again. I think, as often is the case, that this might just take some time. Time for her to take your boundaries seriously - and you have to play your part in being honest with yourself in setting your limits, and acting them out vigorously. It will only confuse her if you sometimes stick to them, and sometimes don't. Set boundaries with yourself that are clear and simple, that you know you can do, and do them. I know, I know, it really isn't a simple as it sounds. Boundary setting is extremely difficult. It takes a lot of time, patience, and yes - pain. You may well have to endure conflict and backlash before your boundaries are respected. But I truly hope if you manage to pull through with them that it will bring a lot more peace and understanding in your friendship!

Big love to you. Well done for how you've managed it all so far. It's an extremely difficult situation, and you've done so well already. You should be really proud of yourself. Love to you. xxx

-h&c

Thank you so much for your lengthy reply! It definitely makes me feel a bit better to know that I have been doing at least some things that are good. I feel like I cannot talk about this with anyone because nobody understands how it actually is so reading your answer was extremely good for me, thank you  :heart:.

This period has really helped me be more comfortable and knowing that I am safe with the distance. But it has been very hard for her. She texts me at least once a day telling me that she cannot do this anymore, that she cannot handle the sadness, and that she just wants to leave this world. Or she gets angry and tells me that I am ruining everything for her, that why do I have to do this now when she is struggling so much. When I open up about how I feel with the things that she tells me (I have been trying to use all the techniques available in this community), she then starts asking me why I want to be her friend. I feel like I always need to explain myself why I want or do not want to do something and it is never a good answer, there is always another "why" followed by "I don't understand." At this point I get very frustrated because I feel like I am going in circles and I want to stop the conversation but when I mention anything related to that she starts saying that I don't care about her, so when I stop answering she calls me in every channel possible and she gets extremely anxious  and starts asking for forgiveness.

I wonder how other people do it? How do you stop the conversation when you know it is not going anywhere? How do you stop the "whys"? Is this something that is common? I try to always reassure her that I am listening and that I cannot imagine what she must feel, that I am here as a friend and I won't leave, but honestly at some point I get desperate and just want to yell at her to stop offloading so much on me every single day, and I am not even sure I can keep the promise because it is getting harder and harder to have good moments with her that don't include me comforting her over her sadness or her getting angry at me because I don't react the way she wants me to.

hello Green123,

welcome to the website.     you've taken a brave step forward to post.   good for you.

Yes, its very common to end up in circular conversations (or arguments) that go nowhere and never seem to end.    people with BPD (pwBPD) feel  their emotions are  being caused by others or by events outside themselves, with no belief that they have any sort of control over their emotions.    also they feel that the only way to change how they feel is to get other people or events to change.

I'd suggest it would be a good idea to look more deeply at boundaries.   how you understand them and how to enforce them.     boundaries are about you,.. about protecting you and what you value.       they aren't about the other person.

in the situation you are describing one way to leave the conversation is to say...

this conversation is getting too intense for me, I am going to take a break... I will talk to you tomorrow at X o'clock.    

or

we've have discussed this a lot and there is nothing new I can add.    I'm going to go do XYZ and will talk to you later.

make an effort to avoid blame.      it's 'this conversation' is getting too intense not you are getting too intense.      it's nothing new is being discussed not... we are going around in circles.

then it will be up to you to hold that boundary... leave the conversation and return when you said you will.

at the top of this message board is a thread called "Lessons"  it's permanently pinned there.   inside the Lessons Thread is this:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0)

in that lesson it talks about how JADE:   Justifying, Arguing, Defending and Explaining continues the circular argument.     it's strongly recommended that we not JADE.     

what do you think?

'ducks