BPDFamily.com

I am emerging from the fog and letting go of denial. I've read a lot and pondered a lot and just sat with my memories and feelings, trying to make sense of things.

At first I thought exbf just had a troubled childhood and marriage. Then I found this site and learned about BPD which seemed to fit a lot of his behaviors.

After more reading, I have come to the conclusion that exbf was very likely ASPD rather than BPD. He was a master manipulator, and I believe it was very calculated. On our very first date, we talked for hours and hours and he asked me question after question about my life, my marriage, my family (something he never did again). At the time I was flattered but now I see that he was collecting so much information he could use to draw me in and manipulate me.

I believe that a lot of his behaviors, including his angry outbursts, were more about feeling powerful, putting me in my place, etc than about fear of abandonment. I don’t think he ever “painted me black” but I do think at the very end, when he realized I was starting to see through some of his bs, he was done with me and on to the next person. I was starting to see beneath the veneer, even if I didn't grasp the full extent of things yet.

This isn't a rant about him, though, it's about getting really honest about how he treated me and figuring out why I would stay with someone like this so that I don't ever get involved with this kind of person again.

A lot of it has to do with being a codependent people-pleaser who has a hard time being assertive. Trauma bonds related to his rages also played a part.

But one of the big things that kept me confused and in denial, I think, was just plain being naïve. I was always someone who tried to see the best in people, to a fault. I couldn’t believe or understand that someone could be so self-serving. There was so much cognitive dissonance. He could seem so kind and great one moment, then act so incredibly selfish the next. It just didn’t compute. So I somehow just ignored the bad stuff. I’ve learned that some people just don't have good intentions, and I need to keep my eyes open and take their bad behavior at face value. If someone isn't treating me well, I can walk away, end of story.

The other trap for me was holding on to my fantasy of what I wanted the r/s to be rather than seeing what it actually was. I wasn’t actually all that happy a lot of the time I was with him. But I kept chasing the random positive reinforcement of those amazing but fleeting moments, and somehow convincing myself that if I worked hard enough, it could be that way all the time.

Even after we broke up, I didn’t want to let go of the fantasy version of the r/s. It was easier to blame myself, to feel like maybe there was something I could have done differently. I still have those moments. “If only I had done x, y, z…” it could have worked, he would have loved me, we would have been happy, etc.

It’s very disturbing to me to begin to grasp how malevolent he may really be. But it's also freeing to realize that this wasn't a tragic love affair, it was a near miss with very selfish person who is never going to change. He’s probably always been this way and probably always will be. I likely know only the tip of the iceberg in terms of who he really is and how many lies he told.

He didn't treat me the way I deserved, but I chose to be in the r/s, and I chose to stay in it for as long as I did. But I will not continue to torture myself with the false belief that his issues were mine to try to fix. He doesn’t want to fix them. He doesn’t see any problem. He got out of the r/s what he wanted. I will choose better for myself next time.

By the way, I don't mean to insinuate in any way that dealing with possible ASPD is worse than BPD. When I say that it was worse than I thought, it's more about just realizing that he probable didn't ever have any real feelings for me. It doesn't matter what his diagnosis is or isn't. It's about trying to accept that the two people in a r/s may not even be on the same planet in terms of their reality or perceptions.

I'm glad to read your statement that you are getting better.  I'm new to this group and also just realizing my 2 year relationship (now over x 3 months) was with a pwBPD.  I too am grappling with "coming out of the fog" and taking inventory of all the red flags I saw but didn't want to see. (working on forgiving myself for not taking better care of me). The thing that I hope will improve for me in time is the feeling I was violated and used through emotional manipulation.  My heart goes out to all of us who have been run over in these relationships. If there is one lesson to learn from our experiences it is that we are capable of love and it is with healthy love we will choose better next time. When I'm feeling a lot of pain I recite this mantra, "I choose to imprint a healthier belief about love and relationships."  Now we know, right? We are not doomed to repeat this pattern. 

Cluster B’s look very similar. Honestly, I don’t even know how trained therapists can differentiate them. Along with that, from my own reading, most are comorbid. Not all narcissists are sociopaths, but all sociopaths are narcissists. BPD and NPD are a common comorbidity. I think that what eventually helps us the most is to simply recognize the behaviors and see how those behaviors affected us. Believe me, I’m still being a detective on this stuff, but I’ve learned that the bottom line is behavior. The diagnosis’ are for the experts to try to find rhyme and reason for the behavior.

S5’s mom is a master manipulator. A pro. They’ve spent their whole life becoming these things. Try to look at objectively. There are reasons that he is the way that he is. That doesn’t condone his behavior towards you. He hurt you because he isn’t aware of himself and most likely never will be. You’re searching for answers and that is justified by what you’ve been through. Ask yourself, does BPD, NPD or ASPD change any of that? The fact of the matter is how he treated you. His behaviors and deception. Emotional predators are just that. Many don’t have personality disorders.

The thing is, you recognize the manipulation. The information gathering. The behavior. Would securing a diagnosis change the way that you feel?

Lililu - I definitely relate to your comment about feeling violated and used. It's an awful feeling, that not only did you not get out what you put into the r/s, but maybe they were purposely using you. I really like your mantra though - I want to choose healthier relationships as well! And I have hope that we can. I'm beginning to believe at a deeper level that I deserve so much better.

JNChell, you're very right, the diagnosis itself (or lack of one) doesn't really matter. That's not what I'm focused on, it's more the realization that he was, as you say, an emotional predator - good term. That not only did he hurt me, but maybe he meant to hurt me.

I'll never know what really goes on inside his head and probably don't want to.

It's a learning experience for sure. I need to stop seeing people for what I want them to be and instead try to see them for who they are.

I understand what you’re you’re saying here. Don’t forget to have a solid grasp on your values and virtues while exploring others.  *)

i dont want to make too fine a point on this, but this may be a narrative that unnecessarily hurts your detachment and recovery.

both people with BPD and ASPD can be manipulative.

generally speaking, someone with ASPD has a criminal history, and manipulates others to criminal ends, not out of desperation to be loved.

in other words, i guess im asking, to what end do you feel your loved one manipulated you? in order to love them? in order to get you to date them? or to get your social security number, steal your identity, your credit, and your finances?


ive had a lot of intense, immediate connections in my life, where me and the other person just hit it off, told our life stories.

in those situations, in retrospect, both parties were definitely putting their best foot forward.

is it possible the two of you were just trying really hard to love and be loved?

Hi once removed, I'm curious why you feel that this thinking may hurt my ability to move on? I'm not trying to make him into a villain but I feel it's natural for me to consider that his intentions may not have been good based on his behavior. For me, that's part of acknowledging that I didn't have the power to change this situation no matter how much I wanted to.

As far as talking a lot on our first date - yes, that can be normal. However, HE didn't talk a lot. He just asked lots of questions of me. When I tried to ask him questions he turned it back to me. That was the first and last time he showed that much interest in my life.

What was his motivation? If I had to guess, I'd say that it was a mix of: wanting to be taken care of financially, wanting someone to essentially be his parent (for example, doing a lot of his household work for him), wanting to be adored and admired, wanting to feel powerful by being able to use his charm to get me to do all of the above. Maybe wanting to be loved was part of it as well? I think to him, being loved does mean having the entire focus on him and getting all the care, I guess like a child would feel. But there were also many things he said/did that in retrospect seem like they were done just for the enjoyment of getting me to react a certain way. Toying with my emotions basically.

The financial part was definitely a big motivation for him. I won't go into all of it here, but I suspect he has taken advantage of others financially and may be committing fraud. I really don't know if that part is true, it's something I wonder though. I know I spent thousands on him and he was glad to take it, didn't bat an eye, and seemed to orchestrate situations so that I would be the one paying. I take responsibility for going along with it...

Whether BPD, ASPD, or just plain selfish/immature, it was not a healthy or remotely equal situation.

i think what i meant is that it would really have hurt me to know that my ex was primarily seeking to manipulate me, or to use me, or to determine that the whole thing was a facade. a lot of us do arrive at that conclusion. how does one recover from that?


for what its worth, this is common advice in pickup artist circles, in "bro-to-bro" chats, even in one of my favorite movies. the supposed wisdom behind it is that it attracts women, and also makes us appear mysterious. most men, no matter how much or how little they invest in the idea, will tell you theyve heard and practiced some version of it.


i think what im not trying to say is that the guy you were dating wasnt pretty selfish or self serving. he was...more than most.

when i first learned about BPD (and other cluster B disorders), i cant tell you the extent to which i looked at every aspect of my ex, my relationship, my own responses, and pathologized them, within that context. its all in my old posts here.

what was really lacking from that context was the human nature element, and the fact that my ex just had a really immature ideal of love, how to be loved, how to connect, how to attract, how to be vulnerable, how to be emotionally available. and so did i.

here are a few analogies, including one i make often.

ive probably told every girl ive dated, at some point, that she was the most beautiful girl in the world.

dissecting that is complicated. did i mean it literally? no, its not an opinion i still hold today. did it feel sincere to me at the time, to the point that i felt compelled to say it? definitely. was there an element of charm, or even manipulation, at a certain level? sure. i was trying to make each girl feel good, and to feel good about me. some of them had low self esteem, and i knew, on some level, at the time that turning on that charm would attract them.

my first serious girlfriend in high school and i took quite a while to actually get together (she has bpd traits, and we are close friends today). the first time that we hung out, she told me her life story. i dont remember it now, but there was a great deal about abuse this and abuse that, i think she might have claimed to have been raped, she probably mentioned shed been stalked. it definitely pulled on my heart strings, and i have no doubt that she could sense that, and ran with it.

lastly, you have heard, no doubt, of all the men who have ever said loving words to women with no real meaning behind them, and only the intention of sleeping with them, ditching them quickly after, and leaving them broken hearted. manipulative? for sure.  :cursing: ty? definitely. sociopathic? if so, youre looking at a pretty high population of sociopaths.

i guess what im really trying to say here, is that an immature, selfish, self centered idea of love can look pretty manipulative in practice, and it is!

i sense that you are struggling right now, with the idea of what was real and what wasnt, what was manipulation, what wasnt, and in general, how you can know. and just trying to learn the right lessons from this relationship, from this breakup.

make no mistake, and i dont use the word often, but this is a normal stage to struggle with.

how do we heal from it? how do we learn those lessons and go onto greater things? by expanding and growing in our own ideals of love, how to be loved, how to connect, how to attract, how to be vulnerable, how to be emotionally available. thats what brings the perspective we didnt start these relationships with.