BPDFamily.com

Mod Note:  Part 2 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344768.0;all

I'm just gonna add onto that last message as I had another question that has been sitting on my mind today. I'm at the point where I totally understand that to persist with talking about our relationship with her is invalidating and not understanding. And to stick away from that is a good plan (side note on that, she did say the other day (just before the brick wall comment) that she is "happy to talk in future, but doesn't want to drag this bullPLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm) up", so I feel a little more comfortable not purely discussing flat stuff, but absolutely won't push it). I was thinking about your analogy @once removed about taking the trash out, and mentioning in passing that you might have been called lazy and wanted to find out what was driving that. I completely appreciate the advice of keeping things simple, but am more asking this in terms of a sanity check to see if I'm struggling to learn something here. If I apply the same thinking as the trash analogy whilst being as understanding as I can, is it still possible to remain understanding if in mid conversation, I say something like:

"By the way, I know that in our conversation the other day you felt misunderstood. I can see that it may have come across that way as I was discussing how things have changed when you have said you want to move on. I think it's difficult to have discussions like that over text, but I do fully understand your position and respect where you are at. Was there anything else you felt misunderstood over?"

Or is sending that message still invalidating and misunderstanding?  

It's not going to help  *)

Forget BPD for a minute. Many women work out conflict different than men. In your case, she is trying to process feelings (about herself, about you, about her ex, about her fling, about... ). You are looking for a logic pathway to fix to convince her to try to give it another go. She is in a power position (consciously or subconsciously she knows this). You are trying to wrestle control of the narrative back to your logic train.

Do you see how that could be? Two different people processing very different situation (hers is very different to yours) using different processes? Two people trying to control the narrative?

If you continue to try to control the narrative, she will push harder on hers (and vice versa). It like pushing a big dog back - what does it do - it instinctively pushes forward as hard as it can. This is dog nature. It is human nature, too.

Stop trying to control the narrative - let go of the idea that you can logic her out of this, Let go of the idea that "giving her approval to feel the way she feels" is compelling. Let go of the idea that overt or over played validation is going to help.

What will help is to listen. Be contrite. Accept uncertainty. She is still trying to talk to you. She is telling you there is no hope ever, but she is still talking to you which means she hasn't really concluded that - she's just thinking that today. She is seeing how you handle her in control.

If it was me, I would just take in all the negativity and be quiet about it. Don't try to take control of it. I think we have no future. That makes me sad. End. Let the topic drift to something more neutral... more upbeat.

Just try to keep the conversations very easy for her. This means dealing with a great deal of uncertainty for a bit. Be OK with that.

Hard. Yes. Human nature. Hear her. Take it in. You validate it by not trying to redirect her.  

Thank you Skip, I will take that on board, it makes a lot of sense. And you're totalling right, I am indeed trying to control the narrative with logic still. I will try to let go a bit. Accept the fate she is dealing. I am uncertain that the topic of "us" will come up again for some time (if ever), so may be tricky to behave this way in an obvious manner. However, I suppose the sound advice given by @once removed of playing the middle ground will subconsciously reinforce this idea that I am accepting things, and not pushing back.


The last line of this in particular is one I will try to remember. I think today, I may have forgotten this and hence even asked the question about what I was thinking of writing. We began talking about something regarding our flat as it was prudent. However, I will admit I showed some weakness and asked some regular questions around her mothers birthday which is this weekend. We spoke for a little bit, which was nice, but I think I asked one too many questions and all of a sudden the responses stopped. I think in a way, I was trying to redirect her by continuing a conversation a little too far. I gave it a little bit, and said that I realised it may have come across that I'd not listened to what had been said, and that I understand where she is at, so won't keep her. I formally ended the conversation there, but was annoyed at myself for asking that one question too many. In future, I will try and keep things shorter and not turn it into a long casual chat, as I'm not 100% sure she is ready for that at the moment.

I'll add, i've just posted something new here (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344971.new#new) around her alleged friendship with a guy that came on the scene coincidentally when she started becoming unhappy. I may be able to forgive her if something had happened and she recognised her mistake, but I am uncertain of things right now. I wanted to mention it here though, as I wondered if that changed anything into how I should act? I will say, if my suspicions are true, I would be furious given how I've been treated over my lie, and would probably cease all contact after some stern words. I don't know if that would help or hinder things long term though.

I wanted to add a comment as I've thought about a lot over the past couple of days. I'm angry about the whole "friendship" with this other guy, and her posting a picture of them facetiming while he is naked has pushed me over the edge. I would give everything and do anything for us to fix things, but I'm tired. I'm worried I'm gonna be stuck in this place mentally while she is off with other guys. I think she knows she can get the best of both worlds, that if it doesn't pan out exploring this other life, I'm still here (even though I know she has said she will never ever get back together with me). But I feel betrayed myself. Yes by the actual breakup, but also by her actions with this guy. It is the same as what I did, if not worse, as she did it knowing the pain it causes.

I don't want to burn the bridge, but I don't want to be where I am. I've written a short letter, explaining that her behaviour with this guy wasn't okay and I feel betrayed myself. And that I'm at the point where I don't want to love her anymore. That I'm done. That I've been where I think she is, and that I think one day, like me, she will wake up and realise exactly what it is she lost. And I won't be there.

I'm torn really because I do want to patch things up, but not at the cost of an unknown amount of time lingering in pain while she can be with whoever she wants. She will probably use the fact that I sent such a message as further justification, that I still don't understand her or something. It is a negative interaction, which I'd rather avoid of course, but I wonder if at the very least the fact that I've reached this point might shift her thinking. Who knows. I wonder if in a day or two I'll fall back and think such a message was a mistake, and that I might have burned the bridge unnecessarily. I just don't really know where to go on this one.

I've thought about this some more and can sort of see that a letter might not be the best way to communicate about this. That really I can sum up how I feel in 3 calm sentences, and if she wants to talk about it then we can and if she doesn't I'm not forcing it on her.

My only concern is if even bringing it up is invalidating and will cause damage.

so many folks, myself included, have found themselves in this position, after a breakup, where there is hope of getting back together. its a particular kind of hell where you feel powerless, and yet, you feel you must act...whether its to win her back, or blow it all up, just so at least you know where you stand.

my advice to you would be not to act on that. because that feeling wont last forever. however, a year from now, you might be kicking yourself over things you do right now.

bringing it up would make you sound like a jilted lover. thats all it would do.


reversing a breakup is about playing the long game. its about playing the best cards you have, the best cards youve been dealt. it is never pleasant. it is always an uphill battle. sadly, it offers no guarantees.

it is a choice that you should make only if you are committed to see it through...to have your eyes on the prize.

heres the thing...

relatively speaking, big picture, this is not far into the long game, at least since youve been playing it.

not much has fundamentally changed. the two of you are still rehasing the old breakup problems. you are each, tentatively trying to work out the flat situation, but neither of you have transitioned to that point, to keeping things strictly business.

and as Skip said, that suggests all is not lost...though the longer the conflict continues, the more likely you both are to conclude your differences cant be resolved...the more likely things are to be lost.

having said that, if she has said "we will never get back together" (whether or not we take it at face value), then it stands to reason that she might test the waters of seeing other people, right? sometimes a monkey wrench like that gets thrown into the process...it happens, it hurts, its incredibly discouraging and makes you just want to blow the whole thing up, but at the end of the day, its playing the short game, when you want to play the long game.

I do think it would be an unpleasant conversation to have and likely to incite feelings in her head that I'm being jealous or something. I can see how it could reflect poorly.

But at the same time, I spoke to my therapist who noted that the more recent things that have happened regarding this guy (which have been the worst offenders of being inappropriate) are things that I bit my tongue over, and that I was working off the assumption that she knew that these things were bad and felt I didn't have to say anything, when in reality she may not recognise the pain it has caused at all.

The flip side of this is that there is more that can be said regarding myself 2 years ago, and while I tried to open a dialogue when she confronted me and was shot down, perhaps some skeletons are best left in the closet. My concern with that though is that one day she may seek out this girl from 2 years ago again as she currently feels she doesn't trust me, so may seek out as much information as she can from there, which would of course be stuff better suited discussed between her and myself if it were to come up.


Consider me totally committed, willing to do whatever it takes.


I think I see your point, these things are out of my control and I guess for now the best I can do is avoid conflicts so we aren't pushed further apart. I've been angry by the whole thing about this other guy, which has at the very least pushed me into not transitioning conversations into non-flat topics. Just yesterday we had a brief conversation that I was happy to nip in the bud when the flat related stuff had all been said. From my understanding of what you've said, although it may feel a little backwards not engaging in pleasant conversation out of leisure, transitioning to that is better in the long run as it gives her distance to figure things out.

my ex was as insecure as it gets. there was, in three years, almost never a day i wasnt accused of cheating. almost never a day i didnt have to spend hours, literally hours on end, fighting about it, never satisfying her, never resolving it, having her get into my privacy to try to find proof to justify her concerns, and then having to fight over completely innocuous stuff when shed invaded my privacy.

only to learn she was flirting with dudes on twitter, probably cheated multiple times, and was lining up the guy she got with after we ended, before we ended.

and when that happened, there was never a day that i didnt want to let her have it. that i didnt want to just berate her.

i never did. today, im long over all of it...but im still, to this day, proud of how i handled it. if the worst case scenario is true, the only thing that will matter to you, months or years from now, is how you handled it.


it does feel backwards. it sounds cliche, but "getting someone back" often requires a bit of letting go, at least emotionally. playing the long game, doing the healthier things, even when/where it hurts. it gives you the right distance too...it makes it easier to see the big picture rather than the here and now.

I do agree, and there are certainly moments where I'm so deeply angry and hurt that I do want to let her have it, but I'm glad I haven't. What I was hoping to do was have a calm discussion about things. To just say "Regardless of it it is friendship or more, I feel your relationship to this guy is similar to what happened 2 years ago. I feel betrayed by it, and had hoped that after we experienced that pain once, it would not be something either of us felt again". I'm at the point where I'd rather have a communicative discussion rather than an argument, but I suppose that may still make things worse compared to letting it lie?


One step back, two steps forward I suppose. It's tough, and I wish more than anything it wouldn't have to be like that, but I understand the necessity in not pushing or pressuring someone despite how much I care.

my advice? put it all in writing. whether it be on paper, or here. i did both. you have a beef man, and everything isnt fair, and you need, within reason, to vent that, get support for it.

it just at times feels like the person who has pained you is the person who can take your pain away, and thats very, very rarely the case. youre on different pages, and there are no clear loyalties. even if she calls you tomorrow, wanting to get back, she cant make this better for you.

I wrote out a long letter I was thinking of sending her, then I wrote out a shorter letter I thought would be more apt. Then I realised that sending these letters would probably not achieve what it is I'm looking for, so I do agree.

I am angry, and hurt. I feel unlistened to by her, and deprioritised. I feel like we've been through something very similar before from me, which I deeply regret, and I hoped that having been through that pain, she wouldn't do the same to me. Because she knows how it feels to be on the side of things where you're the one whose feelings are being ignored, and you're scared that you're going to lose that person. The behaviours I outlined in the other thread are inappropriate in my eyes. It hurts me that she indulged in it, and I feel really disrespected. I understand it, as I think I've been there myself. Getting all that attention from someone else, it can really mess with your head. But I came back from that. I realised that what I was looking for was what I already had, and that I had really messed up. I remembered what it was I loved her for, and that the good times far outweighed the bad. And I think that's one of the most frustrating parts. Right now she looks at our relationship and remembers feeling misunderstood, feeling unheard, arguing, and situations I should have handled differently. And maybe that's why she allowed this guy to get close. But I feel like she's forgotten the good. Or ignoring it at least, because it's easier. Just as it might have made things easier to seek out this girl from 2 years ago, as it helped cement the decision more. I hope that one day she remembers the good, and that really none of the bad could ever have compared


And I'm sure if I did calmly try to talk about it with her, she would likely get defensive about it. It still sits on my mind because I understand that opening wounds can be bad, but at the same time I think we struggled to communicate (evident by me holding my tongue) and I can't shake the feeling of wondering if the wound could heal if we created an opportunity to understand each other better on the matter, even if we are on different pages

I wasn't going to write another post today as I didn't want to take away from my last  post, although I have calmed a lot from that anger and it has transitioned into a mixture of disappointment and wondering if I'm looking too much into it. But I will admit my anxiety has spiked due to something I read and I feel very uncomfortable.

I happened across an article about breakups and signs for if they are permanent. And I recognise that one article doesn't dictate the truth of the future, but it was painful to read nonetheless. It said that if at least one party views the relationship as toxic then its likely permanent. It continues to say to listen out for a neutrality in how they talk to you, i.e. if they seem to have come to terms with the end of the relationship. Both these points scare me.

She has stated several times that she thinks the relationship was toxic. That I am a good man but we are incompatible, that I don't understand her position now and never did. After our last talk a week and a half ago now (in which she was saying all that), things have been very civil, sometimes with minor pleasant chit chat (I've now pulled back a bit on that, I don't ask her how she is for instance when we talk about the flat, I just say hope she is well). Things have arguably been very neutral.

It's difficult to really understand if she will ever come around. Reading that didn't help, and I guess made me think that as the days pass by, she grieves more and more. I can accept that in a way as I've pushed and fought hard for her to no avail so I get that now is the time to not push. I guess i get some anxiety in that the only way she would see a potential rekindling as non-toxic is if things changed (I suppose I mean I change really), and as things feel neutral and we only currently talk either about the flat, or after being prompted by something flat related, I struggle with the anxiety of not being in a position where she can see those changes. And I understand that we've discussed before that women are able to detect subtle changes without things being explicitly stated, but I guess there's only so much someone can read about a person if you're talking about a flat.

I feel a bit powerless in a way. I don't feel able to demonstrate any change, but I don't think that bringing anything up about it will help as I've said it all before. Sometimes I wonder if asking more questions or sprinkling in casual conversation would help with that, but then I am aware that really there is still probably a fear of abandonment somewhere deep, and by keeping distance maybe that will help in some way, as selfish as that may sound. Difficult to know for sure I suppose

dumped,

id probably feel exactly the same way reading the article.

i know that in every relationship ive ever been in, i was in a position of trying to get back together, and highly anxious.

i dont think what the article suggests contradicts what you have heard here. i think its pretty in line with it.

"toxic" is a little bit of a buzzword that gets thrown around, and a person using it, does not the ending of a relationship make. if that were true, id have dumped my ex; i used it, literally, over a hundred times.

she hasnt been neutral in how she speaks to you. shes been full of resentment. it isnt the greatest place to be, but when a person is really done, theyre past that. theyre through venting and letting you have it.

but there arent guarantees or silver bullets. as hard as it is, the more you try to fix this, or "win" her back, the more likely you are to push her away. what you can do is play your best cards, play the best odds. does playing your best cards get the girl back every time? no. but playing fast and loose always fails. think about it. your anxiety is really just pushing you to do things youve already done, and they havent panned out well. and its only been what, a week, since the two of you were going at it? i know how hard it is to see when youre in it, believe me, but your expectations here are not in line with the bigger picture.


in the bigger picture, what has really changed?

youve read a couple of articles. you have a softer tone.

thats not going to translate. if she came back tomorrow, its not going to save the relationship.

you need to be able to vent the anxieties, but you also need to find a way to move to your emotional center, and a new normal, one where you have room to focus, and to breathe. in my experience, the more youre able to do that, to get out of the anxious space, the less you feel a need for particular actions, and the more time does its thing. thats when you feel the change, and those close to you see it.

i have three bits of advice.

the first is to reach out and join in the threads of others in similar circumstances. having been through similar, its easy for me to sit here and see the bigger picture. its much harder when youre in it. helping others in a similar place has a way of giving you perspective and insight into your own situation, that will help both in the short term, and the long term. it will also build up your support system.

the second is to live your life as fully as possible. pass the time...but slowly, and surely, learn to enjoy the time. find routine, normalcy, and enjoyment.

thats where the opportunity to practice what youve learned really happens, and people can sense it more than you think. thats where the growth occurs. it isnt in waiting, acting on anxiety, and second guessing yourself.

the third is to continue diving into the lessons and tools here, and learn to apply them globally.

the time is likely to come where your skills will be tested. you dont want to be in the same place when and if that time comes.

How do you mean? Is it that she has deemed the breakup permanent based on how things were, but that there is potential of changing the parameters by learning as much as I can and growing? Or something else?


Agreed, she has been expressed the word "disgust" a lot what happened fairly recently. But since we discussed the relationship last, things have been on fairly neutral ground. We discussed the flat yesterday and I wrapped things up swiftly, no chit chat. But today she messaged me out of the blue with casual conversation. We talked for a little bit, but it was kinda standard catching up. Very neutral in terms of I was trying to keep a mix of some jokes and some real conversation around some minor issues shes been having, but not really a back and forth. The neutral comment on the article scared me so much, I'm not even sure her striking casual conversation is a good thing, or more a sign of having grieved enough. Backing that up, she was responding fairly quickly and then suddenly stopped. I can see she's been online a few times since as well.


I see what you're saying and I do agree. Although one of the reasons she used for separating was that the spark had gone, so I guess there's an internal battle of balancing trying to get that spark back and giving her space.


My hopes are to turn this around over the next month or two really, am I thinking too small in terms of how big the picture might really be?


Cooler heads prevail sort of thing? I get it, but it certainly doesn't help that the tenancy on the flat ends in just over 3 weeks. And at that point I have no further ties to her. No reason for her to ever speak to me again, and she did say she wants nothing to do with me and will probably feel that for a long time if not forever. It feels like a ticking time bomb if I'm honest. But I guess all I can do is try to accept those as they are, they are out of my control after all really. I guess my great fear is that when these changes transform me further, she may no longer be close to see it at all.


Yes, probably a good idea. I often read a lot here but haven't really contributed. I guess some of it is that I don't feel able to offer good advice given the situation I'm in. But I'll keep an eye open for any opportunities.


Agreed. Although, time has felt like it has become my enemy in a way, pushing us further and further apart. But I know that a lot of that feeling comes from anxiety.


By this, do you mean if the time ever comes where she brings up the relationship?

neutrality seems to scare you. i can understand why.

neutrality is your best friend here. it is what has been encouraged most in the advice you have received.

you dont go from butting heads a week or two ago, to her seeing the light and wanting you, and the two of you living happily ever after.

you need some neutral...a lot of neutral. you need to stop the bleeding. the fighting, on some level, has served as a connection. while the loss of that is uncomfortable, its been a connection that needs to go away if there is any hope.

while there is a palpable fear that this means she has grieved and is moving on, i suspect that on some level, you are grieving, and fear moving on, and that causes painful feelings of discomfort. because that isnt what you want to do.

the fact of the matter is, you both must grieve and move on from the old relationship. this must not be about restoring the old relationship. it was broken. it failed. the question now becomes about what a new relationship would look like, if possible. and as scary as it is, you have to let go of the old one to get there. otherwise, the old baggage will pop back up, and if she came back tomorrow, youll be here in even greater pain in a week or a month, with a lot less likelihood of reconciliation.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind

dont run from the fear. dont fight the fear. observe the fear from a distance, and listen to what its telling you.


put this on your mirror. read it every day. heed it.

the rest is just noise.

I do agree. There were failings and I'm happy to take the time to learn in order to consider what a new relationship looks like. I think the pain comes from me being happiest to do that (in my mind) in a relationship with her, continuing to grow but together, and that this isn't the situation. I'm scared if I'm honest. I'm scared she may never come back, or it may be years. I'm not comfortable with either of those really, and probably not even a singular year from now. I guess I want to have my cake and to eat it too probably, there's just so many unknowns that it's terrifying.


Thank you for the reminder. I kinda had the opportunity to heed it strongly today but failed a little. We talked for a little bit again, we even spoke about a behaviour she used to not like of mine and how I realise now how silly it was. It felt nice, it felt like a little neutral nugget of information for her that shows a little change on my end. I felt connected, there was some back and forth. But then she went a bit quieter and I still asked a couple of questions. It got to the point where she left me on read for hours before asking a totally separate question and ignoring mine. I guess it's probably a sign I needed to pull back more, I wasn't matching her. Live and learn I suppose, I will heed from now on.

Think I didn't pull back as I've been missing her a lot today. I remember vivid memories, incredible moments shared between us. It almost feels like she doesn't remember them at all, or chooses not to. I struggle to comprehend how someone could ever think about those moments and think they're not the person for them.

I had a totally separate question, more in line with the content of the other thread I posted recently. Say she did have a new favourite person, and that contributed a lot to the breakup, is that something that could stick? If he played his cards well, could he be a favourite person forever? Just curious.

i get that. i do.

as much as youre able, do not let your fear drive you or your actions. it simply isnt your friend in this situation.

confidence is. a man that says "i can and will live without her, although id prefer not to" is psychologically on more solid ground than one that says "i cant live without her and ill do anything to be with her".


are you asking if the two of them could work out, or work out forever? i get where youre coming from...it was my greatest fear when my ex left me for somebody, but there just isnt an answer to that that would have any solid basis.

its been a few days...any update?

I wholeheartedly agree. I have deep regret of how I acted out of anxiety and fear that pushed her to move out quicker. I spent some time looking at the mindfulness stuff you linked which was very helpful thanks, it is something I intend to consciously consider as much as I can so I don't act on these negative emotions.


I think you're right. Yesterday I spoke to my therapist who asked me to sum up what it would be if I could say anything to her that was short. The first thing I said was that I missed her, which is the truth. I felt okay after that and at the end of a text exchange when she hoped I was having a good day, I simply said that I miss her but I am getting on with things, and that I'll speak to her later. That felt sort of along the lines of I feel these emotions, but i can live without her. Hopefully it came across that way


I guess I was asking if it was something that wouldn't die out quickly, but you're right, there probably isn't a solid answer as every situation is different.


Been a little mixed, feel like ice has thawed by a fraction. We've spoken every day for the last 5 days, 3 of them I've had to talk about the flat, but 2 of them she has sent me a message out of the blue about random stuff. That felt nice, but I've noticed she will drop out of a conversation like a switch being flipped. Sometimes she will talk for a bit and be a little chatty, other times she will send a message, I'll respond but then she is immediately distant. It's strange, but I'm trying my best to follow her cues and not push her too much when I can sense some distance. She even checked my social media (instagram story) for the first time in maybe 6 weeks, not sure what to make of that, but trying to not let my head run wild with ideas.

I went up to near where she lives at the weekend as well. The night before she told me she accidentally has something large of mine, and I asked if she wanted me to pick it up since I had the car, but stated i was also aware that she may not want to see me so if she'd prefer to drop it to our old flat another time that's ok. She simply said "busy this weekend" and became distant. I took the hint, I didn't ask at all if she wanted to meet or anything, I felt that avoiding the subject would validate both previous requests to never see me again, and also show I'd listened to the fact that she said she is busy. I simply let her know I was about to leave so she would be free to go to the flat to look for an item of hers she thinks might be there.

She's also asked questions which I felt could be intentionally misleading, but I might be reading far too much into it. For example, she text me a little out of the blue 2 days ago asking when I would next be in her city. That gave me a little flare of hope, thoughts jumped to what if she was asking to meet or something. But when I told her she simply said she was expecting mail to the old flat, and asked if I happened to see it there. When she said that, I wondered why she asked it that way, and not just say next time you come up can you check the mail. But I don't know, again, might be reading too much into it.

youre wise not to get too far ahead of any of this.

these sorts of things arent meaningless. its just hard to say what it means  :(

thats the sort of thing i do, that a lot of us do...ill unfollow or stay away from someones social media if its painful for me. when the ice thaws, and i get curious, ill look. for someone on the opposite side of me, that would be a good thing.

shes talking to you a lot. shes not limiting it to the flat.

this isnt the position you want to be in, but, and as much as i loathe the phrase, it could be worse. it is about where one would expect things to be.


its hard to say.

how are you responding? are you putting your cards on the table, so to speak? being a bit too enthusiastic?

How do you mean? Do you think it's negative for her to be talking about non flat stuff at this stage?


My responses have been mixed, although I guess could come sometimes across a little enthusiastic. For example, she brought up out of the blue that she thought a new song was beautiful. I said I agreed and that I had a much deeper appreciation of the artist after listening to an album of theirs about feeling like their partner didn't care, and that it resonated a bit. I then said it would be a once in a lifetime thing to see them in concert. She responded "yeah shes awesome x" (She will use text kisses to signify closing the conversation I'm fairly certain). In that text exchange, yeah I can see that it might have been a little enthusiastic compared to maybe a one liner about it.

But then there are other times, we may have been chatting for a little bit. She'll be asking questions back and answering mine, and then she can switch off. I can see a recent chat where that happened, although i did mention I can have tension with family because im so focused on drastic change in answer to her question - perhaps mere mention of that sort of thing turned her away. But there have definitely been other times too where I haven't mentioned that sort of thing and she might just switch off.

Perhaps it is best either way to pull back a little more, not mention anything in relation to our relationship at all? 

There was another interaction the other day. She told me she had been having a rough few days, and on Monday morning after bringing up something to do with the flat, I asked if she was doing ok. She said "yeah im fine, I don't need you to check on me x". It felt a little cold out of nowhere, so I just said "ok no worries. I care about you so just wanted to make sure thats all". That felt fine to say, I hope that her coldness was just a result of her having a bad few days and not being in a great mood in general

no. i was suggesting anyone in your position would rather have her being super forward and all over you, much clearer, simpler, easier to deal with. right now thats not realistic.


these are bright lit signs to pull back.

its generally a good thing that shes talking to you about some musical artist. thats not about the flat...she expressly wanted to keep communication about the flat...but let her lead. its a bonding effort, even if minimal. connecting it to your relationship and a partner that didnt care is heavy. little more than "awesome" or "it would be a once in a lifetime thing to see them in concert" is all that is called for.

"i dont need you to check on me" means chill on the feelings stuff, its engulfing. its generally a good thing that shes open enough with you that she says shes having a rough time...dont over pursue. some of these things may be more making conversation than anything to follow up on.


in general, no, dont mention the relationship at all.


add to this: if she uses an x, dont follow up  *)

Ah okay, yeah completely agree. But aware of the fact that there was a betrayal and it will have impacted things significantly, so I'm guessing this stuff will take time if its ever going to come back.


Yeah that's very true, I hadn't thought about the weight of connecting it to a partner that didn't care. I'll try and pull back on the relationship stuff. Last night, I was feeling a little confident, I don't think it was relationship stuff per se, but still linked. There has been someone ripping open mail where our old flat is, and she is expecting mail. I made a light joke about going up this weekend to rip open some mail. I followed it up with a very flirty line saying that I missed the days of coming to the flat to rip other things open. We weren't really having a full conversation so I said I hoped she had a good day as well, I guess I said this almost as an excuse for her to not respond as it can come across as me exiting the conversation. It was late, and she didn't respond. Hard to say if stuff like that came across as a negative and inappropriate or something, maybe its too soon for stuff like that. It's a tough juggling act when it comes to being respectful, being confident and attractive, and not bringing up stuff related to us.


Sure. This one's on me to be honest, I had asked previously how she was doing and she hadn't responded to that question, but did respond to others. I recognised that she probably wasn't doing great so felt compelled to ask again in a more serious tone because I care about her, but I can see that I could have just respected that she might not have wanted to talk about it. Although, I will say, it's tough to know in the moment which way to go, because I guess there's a chance that not asking can come across that I don't really care, which was a contributor to our breakup.


Yes, good point. And something I should have been following a bit more.

I'm also going to near where she lives again this weekend, I've let her know but will pull back as best I can still and not ask to meet or anything. Feels like that's the right way to play it if she's giving clear signs to pull back.

Thought I'd do a little update just because. She's been a bit more distant this week which hasn't felt amazing, but I think I've coped with it well and given her space. I was happy to focus on stopping the bleeding and just having some short friendly interactions right now. So it was like that for a couple of days, but I think I messed up a little today.

I went to our flat to pack my things, this all started well as I didn't have any intention of asking her to meet or anything, I was happy to go and do what I needed to and give her space at the same time. We had a very short text exchange and she told me she was working so couldn't chat - I highly doubt she was working to the point where she couldn't chat, but simply took this as she wanted space right then. So I pulled back and wished her a nice day. I was packing a little later and I found a valentines day card she had given me this year. It was a very sweet card and said things like our love is the adventure of a lifetime to her, and that she is thankful for everything I do to help create the life she always dreamt of. She gave me this card mere weeks before separating with me, which really baffles me if I'm honest because it feels genuine.

Anyway, I was feeling fine, and sent her a picture of the card and made a joke about it not aging well. She did not take it well. She asked why I would even send that, and that it was insensitive. That she doesn't feel that anyway and is wiser now. And that is isn't some ****ing joke. I apologised and said it was not a joke to me, and she ignored the messages I sent. So I left her with a quick final apology and wished her a good day. She hasn't responded to any of it, so it's safe to say I've upset her I think. I can see how it might be insensitive, but assumed she had healed a lot so would be okay with a light hearted comment. Clearly that was not a good assumption. I hope this doesn't say to her in her mind that yet again I've proved to be incompatible by doing something inappropriate.

Another little update. I spoke to my therapist today, she said it sounded like I have a difficult time really vocalising how I feel, and that the joke I made sounded like a cover up for some anger deep down.

I took what I talked about with her and I decided that I would like to at least clear things up and resolve the issue by being honest. I simply told her I missed her and I've lost my best friend, and that the card was a reminder of what we had shortly before we separated. That it was painful and I lashed out in a way, and I was sorry for that.

She wasn't the warmest in response. Claimed it was once again a 'sorry' after the event when it shouldnt have happened in the first place. And that the card does not reflect what we had at the time, and that she appreciates I miss her but it will get better with time. I clarified that I dont just miss her, I miss us. That yes it will get easier with time but it is a great shame and terribly sad to have lost the good parts.

She reminded me she doesn't feel the same way, and believes the best healing process for me is away from her. She went on to remind me I lied to her for 2 years of her life, and she feels exactly the same now as she did when she found out about it, and her feelings will never change. That there's no going back and she's tried to make it clear that she will never ever give us another chance.

Hard words to take if I'm honest, because I know that when she wrote that card she did genuinely mean it, because things were good. It's almost like she's looking back with the opposite of rose coloured glasses. I told her I understand basically, I had hoped we could start a new chapter together but I get why she doesn't want to, and that others may feel the same as she does in her position. I'll try and have a light conversation not about us later in the week, but I feel that when our shared tenancy ends very soon, she may very likely cut me off.

your achilles heel is relitigating the relationship.

whether it be trying to prove to her youve changed. whether it be telling her that you miss her. whether it be a picture of the good times you shared. there are other examples.

she responds with hostility every time, dil.

this is the thing above all things youve got to drop. its not the way to win her back...more importantly, it isnt really listening. it isnt really getting where shes at.

the sooner you are able to do the latter, without doing it as a means of proving or reaching her, the clearer things will become.

Yes, I see where you're coming from. It was a mistake to have sent her the picture of the card, I'm somewhat content with being honest about things yesterday but the whole situation could have been avoided really. I left things by saying I understand that she does not want to work with me to mend things and because I care about her, I will accept that.

I'm aware of the fact that she may be cutting me off as I said. I'm unsure how to act when that conversation arises, I think some honesty but also acceptance might be a good route. I want her to understand I'm listening to her, and I suppose the best way to do that is by actually listening to her. For now, I'll lay low for a couple of days and give her some space. Perhaps a light conversation in a few days but other than that I'll pull back a little, and will definitely try to avoid relationship discussion

youre gonna make mistakes.

no particular mistake is fatal, necessarily (it always can be, i dont think we are talking about that here).

the question is really the message you are consistently sending over time...not as much the good days or the bad days, but the bigger picture.

How do you mean?

i mean this wont stand or fall on one or two "fatal" mistakes. there isnt a post youve made where ive thought to myself "oh, you blew it, thats it, no going back".

at the same time, the dynamic hasnt really shifted. the two of you are still in a similar place to where you were weeks ago. you make an overture...or different kinds of overtures. mostly she feels invalidated, and you kick your own ass. the dynamic repeats. thats the bigger picture.

giving her a few days space is a good move. vital, i would suggest. but thats a bandaid. without a real shift, the present dynamic is mostly doing damage over time.

So the big shift really needs to be to cut all relationship stuff, thereby stop invalidating her. Letting her get on with what she wants to get on with and not making any moves that might be interpreted as interjecting?

Had a bizarre interaction today that came out of nowhere. A week ago one of her best friends (who I always got on very well with) shared a political post on her instagram story. I replied to it and said something about the comments on the post, to which she replied in agreement with what I said, and then I wished her well. That was the entirety of the interaction.

Today, my ex messaged me out of the blue. She said it was extremely inconsiderate that I would reach out to her best friend like that, so I just said I didn't realise it would make her uncomfortable and apologised, and for her clarity described what was said to ease her mind in case she thought it wasn't purely about a political thing.

I'm not sure if she was baiting, but she then had a huge overreaction in my opinion. She said that me doing it, after she had broken up with me and was healing from being "absolutely torn down and cheated on" was disrespectful, selfish, manipulative and disgusting. And that she doesn't even entertain the idea of getting back together because we don't even have the same outlook on minor issues such as these.

It felt a little like she had twisted things to become the full victim of the whole breakup. I also explained that for me it is communication that leads to the same outlook, which is what had happened as I was happy to oblige. But that wasn't good enough and she said I'm somehow the only person in her life that doesn't have the intuition to not have to talk about things. It feels like I'm expected to be a mind reader to be honest.

We talked relationship stuff for a little bit (only because she brought it all up), and she kept saying she is so so much happier now. She kept saying over her dead body would she ever date me again and also kept repeating that she is "DISGUSTED" and it makes her "SICK" about the lying about what happened.

It seems she is still very hurt by what happened. And I wouldn't have discussed it if she hadn't brought it up, but is even responding back about this stuff just making things worse?

im going to keep bringing it back to Skip's advice on this...it really applies to every conversation youre having with her, its the same dance, and if you really want to shift it, youre going to need to change your moves.


lets walk it through, what this looks like in practice here.


that would have been a good place to stop; not trying to control the narrative, not trying to control the negativity. "im sorry. i didnt realize". be contrite, accept uncertainty. let the next move be hers.

she was pissed (whether reasonably or unreasonably). dont counter those feelings with logic. let them be.


this is a clear cut case of "pushing back harder on her narrative". and shes more or less saying "SEE, YOU ALWAYS DO THIS". at this point, its, to her, pretty much more about your response than what you did initially.


likewise, this is a clear cut case of pushing back with your narrative. in order to communicate with her, youre going to need to read her. the issue, as she sees it, is clear as the line in bold. she wants you to stop explaining. to stop trying to counter her with logic. to be cool and confident with her in control, or with uncertainty. to be contrite.

i dont know how else to put it...to stop trying to argue her to your point of view.

dont JADE. make it your mantra. it will make every interaction, even if she lets you have it, much easier, more constructive, and it will catch her off guard.

I read this the other day but didn't reply instantly as I wanted to take some time to really think about it and how I was approaching things. I think I needed to have all that reinforced so thanks OR, it was very helpful.

It's been a few days and we spoke a couple of times. We did talk about our relationship a bit, things were basically the same really. I can tell there is resentment and she says she would have been very open to talk if I hadn't done what I did, but I did so she isn't interested. I've moved into a new flat now with some people my age, and I think it's really helped with just getting my life back a bit. I've pulled back a little with her, I've not been trying to find excuses to talk or anything, I've had no interest to check social media at all, so that's all been great. Going forward, I'm going to try to remember your advice OR of living life and just naturally finding practice to be more validating and empathetic etc, hopefully doing so with a bunch of new people will help with that.

She even text me out of the blue last night with a random message, so nice to know she was at least thinking of me. Our flat tenancy ends this weekend, I'm not entirely sure what will happen after that. I am also not sure if I will see her at all as part of the ending of the tenancy process, but I at least feel in an okay enough place to not feel too disheartened by that, I'm happy to just get on with things. I hope that pulling back a little will help somewhat. Giving her a little more space feels like it probably isn't a terrible idea while there is still resentment there anyway!

hows it going now? any update?

I'd say a good few things have happened since my last post. I'll try and briefly summarise the key stuff!

I pulled back a bit and I wasn't texting her too much, and then last friday (2 days before the end of the tenancy), she text me about the flat, but then she quickly began asking me where I live and stuff and also started bringing up relationship stuff. It was good I thought that she had brought it up, and was saying how hurt she was that I "cheated" on her and then also lied about it. But she would say it and then pull right back in a way and would follow up these points with that she "will never ever be treated the way I treated her ever ever again", that she genuinely believes she will experience something far better, and that she does care but everything I've said isn't enough. I'm not sure if she was trying to bait me as it sounds like she firmly wants no relationship but will still say stuff like that. In fact, the way she brought it up was out of the blue saying "I haven't seen you since I found out you cheated on me have I?" which I thought was a super weird thing to say personally. Curious as to your thoughts on this interaction!

Then came Sunday, last day of the tenancy. Astoundingly, she agreed to meet, something I did not expect. I hugged her hello and gave her a kiss on the cheek, but she very swiftly became very frosty. She didn't want to talk about anything, so I said thats fine, but I'd like to apologise etc so I did. She said it means nothing to her and that its all forgotten (although it clearly has not been forgotten). But then she did go on to start saying how hurt she was by it all. I did not JADE at all which I was proud of, I simply took everything she said and was contrite. I apologised and said I would not justify it. I told her I did miss her but she told me she didn't. We began to part ways and she just said bye and walked back into the flat. I asked if we could at least hug and she declined. A minute later I realised I needed to give her my keys, so went back in. We briefly spoke again and she said she didn't think it would be as frosty as it was, but that she felt unable to say 2 words to me so thought she might not have been as ready as she thought. She promised we would talk at some point, but not now (I assume she means when she is totally over me?). So yeah, could've gone better but I think I handled it okay and thats all I really can do I think?

We had a brief chat over text yesterday as well. She said that what we had was beautiful but that it isn't that she doesn't feel we can repair things, its that she doesn't want to. She wants the life she has now and is happier than she has been for years. I replied with a messaged basically saying I would have been happy to take things as slow as she wanted, with her living her full life and us sorting things out in the moments in between, but that I'm happy to listen to her too. She simply said she doesnt want that and its as simple as that. I simply said sure and that I understand and am glad she's happy, and left it at that. Think I handled it ok?

Final little update is a bit of a weird one I'm really trying to wrap my head around. She's deleted every photo off every social media. Not just ones with me in it, but a complete purge. Changed her profile pictures too like a total reset. I'm really confused by it, it seems like an odd move. I happened to see she was posting some song lyrics from various songs about being saved by someone, so maybe she's with someone and it felt like a total new start for her, but I have no idea. I'd be tempted to ask her if she's seeing someone but I think she would either just not tell me or take it the wrong way somehow. But yeah, can't make sense of any of it right now

youre still in a similar place, from where im sitting. thats neither a good nor a bad thing, per se, more of a "could be worse".

everything shes telling you is still a bit of protesting too much, an indication of residual feelings.

bottom line is shes talking to you an awful lot, and telling you "shes so done" an awful lot, for a guy shes so done with (thats what i mean by "could be worse"). she also indicated things will be revisited (again).

its not very clear how you responded to all of this (the give and take). the one thing i would say is dont over apologize. theres a difference between being contrite and "youre right, im a terrible person and i did wrong". you dont want to bend over backwards to give credence to the latter, reinforce it. you want to understand why shes upset (i think you do, at this point), you dont want to apologize for stepping on a crack and breaking her mothers back.

i would also be more detached when it comes to relationship talk. dont push for a hug or kiss. dont push for a talk. if she initiates, id let her talk, id give a (only slightly more heartfelt version of) "that sucks", and id redirect or change the subject. its circular and not productive at this point. she tells you how much you suck, you agree you suck, you promise better, she says "thats nice but nah". you just dont want to keep going down that road. move in a different, more upbeat direction.


people frequently present a "fresh, new" version of themselves after a breakup, especially on social media. at this point, i wouldnt read more into it than that. i most definitely wouldnt inquire.

Things have been more detached lately since the tenancy ended, especially with relationship talk which hasn't really happened. But I kind of take that as not a terrible thing because as you say, it becomes circular and goes nowhere if the dynamic remains the same. We still talk every now and again, even just yesterday she text me out of the blue to tell me she thinks we may get our deposit back soon. I don't think there was any need for that message other than to make conversation to be honest. She's told me she has been having a difficult time lately, I believe it is from the amount of hours she is working, so perhaps messages like that from her bring her a moment of solace, but who knows.

She told me a couple of days ago that she doesn't text me when she thinks of me because I told her I wanted to cut ties if she didn't want to be together. I wasn't sure how to respond, as there's an internal conflict of wondering if cutting ties fully will make any chance (if any) of rekindling worse. I told her that whilst she isn't dating anyone, I don't want to cut ties, because I do still love her after all. But that if that changed, it would likely be too painful. I also said I know the last time we saw each other was difficult, but if she would ever like to meet and talk (not necessarily about "us") then I would like that. She said she would let me know when she is ready, and also that she is more than happy for me to reach out to her whenever.

It's difficult to say what state things are in, but in some ways it almost feels like things are slipping away. That's probably anxiety talking, as really the only change is that we are talking a little less, which is natural I suppose. I'm not too sure if that needs to change if there's any chance of starting fresh though or not.


Heeded the advice here and did not inquire, happy to read into it as you say as a fresh start thing.

shes saying "i feel like talking to you is conditional". at the end of the day, it is.

its been a while! any update?

It has been a little while yes! To sum up, still single!

We had a couple of text chats since my last post. The biggest one we discussed change and everything and she asked was asking me if I have changed, why wouldn't she choose someone who hasn't betrayed her and treated her like garbage (her words). Tough to answer, but the fact that she asked it felt okay as it was almost accepting of the fact that things could be different.

However, there is still a lot of resentment there for sure. She still says it makes her feel sick with disgust thinking about the kiss. She says she is a woman of her word and that there will never be anything romantic between us again because of it.

It was her birthday recently as well, a tough day for me if I'm honest. I said happy birthday, then after a short conversation I sent her a message while reminiscing and I suppose in pain. It read something like "from taking you hot air ballooning, to taking you to Rome, to even the bed 'bouncing like no tomorrow', I never thought I would spend this day not with you. Regardless I hope you have an amazing day". (note: the bouncing line was something she said to me exactly post breakup at some point in reference to that day).  No comment was made about this for nearly 2 weeks, when randomly she brought it up. Said nobody who cared about her would send emotionally manipulative stuff like that. That she felt physically sick because why would I even bring up sex. That this stuff makes her sure of her decision even more. And that I dont even realise how manipulative I am. I explained that I was uncertain what she felt I was trying to manipulate her how to feel. But it has made me deeply question if saying that was manipulative or not. I still don't know really, but either way I tried to not JADE, just recognised that was how she felt and tried to assure her I had no intentions of manipulation.

I've made a few other mistakes I think in recent times. Firstly, she messaged late one evening out of the blue with a very random question, which lead to light hearted conversation. Eventually she said she was at her parents house but they had gone away so she was on her own, and also that she has struggled to cook for herself. I offered to drive down and cook her her favourite meal. She said its okay, perhaps a bit full on given we havent seen much of each other in 5 months. I said okay, and offered to drive down and maybe just go for a walk. Again she said its okay. At this point I should have stopped, but I offered to drive down and just leave her favourite meal in tupperware at her door for her. At this point she said she felt overwhelmed and doesn't feel ready to talk. I apologised and backed off, but recognised I had pushed too hard and regretted it.

The most recent mistake happened 2 days ago. I'd felt there was a lot I wanted to say. She has said she will let me know when she's ready to talk, but I think what she means is that she will be ready when she is over me or something. So I wrote a letter, it was fairly long, and didn't feel right to send in a text so I hand wrote it. The night before I sent it, I said I had written it and was going to pop it in the mail to her parents house, and that if she isn't there then they can forward, and if she doesn't want it they can just bin it. She didn't reply until late the next day, at which point I had just posted it. She was not happy I had sent it at all. Very annoyed and said I was out of line. Went from initially saying she isn't ready to read it right now as she has taken time off work for mental health, to saying she isn't going to read it and I should leave her alone. She has asked for no communication (except for stuff in regards to old flat) for the next few weeks so she can focus on herself. Perhaps I shouldn't have sent the letter, maybe it was a bit of a hail mary thing to do. But to be honest she is as stubborn as a mule and the letter wasn't pushing for anything more than to not refuse any chance to show her something different because she wants to stick to her word.

So that's kind of where we are at. Currently not talking as of today, for at the very least a few weeks I assume. Feels like I have messed up which isn't nice, and not really sure where to go from here. But I will be heeding her message of no messages as that is what she has asked for.

"i miss all the good times i had with you, and i miss screwing you. it sucks that im not there, but happy birthday."

is what she probably heard  :(


I'd felt there was a lot I wanted to say. She has said she will let me know when she's ready to talk, but I think what she means is that she will be ready when she is over me or something. So I wrote a letter
...
She was not happy I had sent it at all. Very annoyed and said I was out of line. Went from initially saying she isn't ready to read it right now as she has taken time off work for mental health, to saying she isn't going to read it and I should leave her alone.
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dil, i dont mean to kick you while youre down; i say all of this to help, and i say it as a guy that has been the king of over pursuing in most of my relationships, or potential relationships.

the potential has existed to get back together, for an abnormal (long) period of time, and its an abnormal situation where a gal says shes done, it would be breaking her word to get back with you, and yet, she has frequent conversations with you that a "gal thats done" simply wouldnt have.

but every step of the way, you are sabotaging yourself. she states her case, you counter with your perspective. she says "this is too much", you double down. she doesnt feel ready to talk, but theres a lot you want to say.

youve simply got to read her, man. shes not only rejecting this approach each time, shes telling you that its further confirmation not to get back together.

cutting off all contact isnt a great sign, but its what youve been dealt, and heeding it (full stop) can thaw some of the ice. without radical and drastic change, though, its just pushing pause.

let this be a wake up call. read her. change your approach - not to what you think will regain control or convince her, but to one that accepts uncertainty.

I understand exactly what you mean. I think I go through phases, I'll accept uncertainty and act that way, but then in some shape or form will eventually come back to feeling like I need to do something to get her back. I understand that that isn't what is needed here. I think I get to that place because the reason we broke up was that I wasn't putting her as a priority in my life I guess, and so the balance of rectifying that and showing it but at the same time to I suppose be more casual towards it feels difficult to balance out correctly.

I will heed the no contact for a few weeks as she asked. Hopefully doing that is a step towards accepting uncertainty. Going past that point, assuming there is some form of contact, does accepting uncertainty look like just not bringing up the relationship, keeping it very casual when we speak, or is it something different that I am missing?

Just a minor update, I am almost certain she had me muted on Instagram, but today I saw she watched my stories (just 2 scenic shots of me exploring) which means she would have gone on my page and seen some nice photos of me recently too. An hour or so after I noticed, she unfollowed me and removed me as a follower of her (I had her muted too). A little bit depressing to be honest. Hard to know if she did that because she misses me or something and it was difficult seeing that for her, or if it was the total opposite and she feels nothing and thought there was no point in it. Weirdly it was just Instagram she did it on, so difficult to know what to think but overall not the best thing to experience :/

im the kind of guy that tends to eschew overreading social media moves.

im also the kind of guy that has made them.

as a rule, i dont unfriend anyone. i unfollow if someone is posting something that is bothering me. and im the first guy to unfollow an ex if im hurting, and do my damndest to stay away.

but ive also looked at my exs social media, many, many times, years after our breakup.

i would tend to think that your ex looked, and decided that looking isnt for her, right now. more than likely, it hurt.

its neither to say stop posting, stop posting what youre posting, or that the interpretation, good or bad, is the right one.

shes actively trying to detach. shes not detached.

In many ways, I hope this is right.

It's been a little while, wanted to share where things are at. Quick minor update on social media, she deleted her instagram account and made a fresh (private) one, but we are still friends on facebook, although I'm sure we both have the settings set to not show much of each other.

Anyway, previously she asked for some space. I did indeed heed that as best I could, although a few weeks into it I asked how she was (as I knew things hadn't been amazing for her mentally). She didn't respond, so I went NC again. A couple of weeks ago, she rang me out of the blue, something we haven't done in months. She called to basically say she knows we are on different pages, and that she space is so I can get over her. That she wants to be friends at some point, but not until I'm over her. And that she felt that what drove that was that I would "spiral" whenever we would talk, and things would end up talking about us. Also, she pushed that she wants nothing to do with me romantically and is very happy now. Overall, it was a long phone call and we discussed a lot, and I felt okay afterwards. I just wasn't sure why she made the call.

Over the past few weeks since, she has messaged me about 3 or 4 times bringing up random stuff (e.g. asking if she can give a pillow of mine that she has away, or if we paid all our bills from the old flat). Similarly, I've text her twice. The first was a few weeks ago, where I wanted to clarify that I didn't think I had "spiralled" in a very long time, and that ultimately I wish her utter happiness. The second was yesterday, I asked about some money we were expecting and kept it very very short and to the point. I probably could have avoided texting her that, but I have felt a lot lower these past couple of days and have very much missed her.

I feel almost at a loss of what to do. A possible good thing is that the resentment of the big kiss seemed to have faded. However, when we speak, she always pushes the idea that I never understood her. I'm very much inclined to disagree as I felt I always understood her well (hence a longish relationship), but have reached the point where I am happy to listen and be wrong. That's where I'm at a loss. She asked for space previously, and I guess wants to keep that until "I'm over her", and it sort of feels like the radical change needed from the breakup is that I needed to listen to her and understand her more. So I'm giving her the space, or at least trying my best to. I try to maintain NC as best I can, despite the difficulties of it. But at the same time, I can't help but think that not speaking isn't productive. There's a conflict of I can listen to her and understand her, but by doing so I remove myself from the equation, which doesn't feel comfortable internally. For now, I suppose I will continue NC as best as I can as listening to her at the end of the day is what she wants. But I can never shake the feeling that even though I want to take the path to do all I can to repair things, it feels like I am walking the path of giving up.

Little update, nothing good though.

I read an old argument in our chat, and realised that in June 2019 she was having some doubt about me as we were having petty arguments. She threatened to leave and we talked it through. I reached out to her on Saturday, it was probably just an excuse to talk to her, but I wanted to apologise for not reading the signs and radically changing when it mattered. I asked if I could talk to her, and she was happy to talk, so I sent a voice note with the apology and also a little bit of stuff around how I do understand her (that I can, but wasn't doing so out of stubbornness and selfishness), but ultimately I really want her to be happy. She listened to it, but said she still doesn't agree that I could understand her. I told her I understood, because from her perspective me not being able to understand her, and me choosing not to realistically looked like the same thing. I said I wasn't the same person I was, and she said she wasn't either. She asked why would she "give a second chance over ever other guy out there who hasn't really PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm)ing hurt her, driven her insane and treated her life like PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm) while travelling for a girl who he ended up kissing the second she took a break from him". She followed that up with saying she isn't interested in ever giving us a second chance. And that she would love to be friends, but doesn't think we are there yet.

We had some back and forth after this, me trying to actually answer her question about a second chance. But ultimately she was completely closed off. Saying we have completely different outlooks on life. That it all takes two people and she isn't there. That nothing I can say to her can change her mind over what she considers right. That she really is never going to be open to it ever. And finally that she thinks I'm a great guy and wants the best for me. During the discussion, I wasn't forceful of my rhetoric, I was very understanding of hers, and I left things without pushing them too far.

But I feel at a loss. I know the advice given to me. Accept uncertainty. But this doesn't feel like uncertainty. When she is that closed off, it feels like certainty. She doesn't seem angry anymore, she almost seems kind. It feels a bit like everything is still slipping away and I'm just a spectator.

I wrote a letter out to her that I was going to send as a voice note. But I remembered your advice once_removed saying:

I don't want to get to the same point of her saying this is too much. There's still a lot I want to say, but given that once piece of advice, I haven't said it. And that's painful and difficult to do if I'm honest. I've tried to read her as best as I can, and from what I can read, she is completely closed, and that's because she believes I am unable to understand her. In my letter, I wrote about ways I do understand her. And I feel they're all valid, but again, I don't want to overwhelm her. I feel completely stuck, unable to show her that I understand her because by even bringing up how I understand everything that happened in the past, it's as if I don't understand she wants nothing romantic. But at the same time, without bringing it up, she holds onto that view forever. I'm going to sit on the message for a couple of days at least, that feels like the right thing to do. I just don't know how to repair things with someone unwilling to listen or consider the possibility that I have put in the work to be a better suited partner.

theres some general advice given on this board that suggests considering the old relationship dead, and any potential new iteration, to be like a new relationship.

i think that its time to see things that way, but radically so.

to really let the relationship go emotionally, and grieve it. let go of hope. to, as much as you can, get the idea of a relationship with her out of your heart and out of your mind.

thats what shes really telling you. she doesnt want the old relationship. she doesnt want second chances. youre offering a return to the old relationship, "but better this time". 2.0. she doesnt want that.

the only response to that is to take her at her word, and hat in hand, emotionally move on. its also the ultimate validating thing to do.

conversely, doing so is your best, and probably only shot.

dont get me wrong: this cant be a last trick up your sleeve where you show her youve changed. its been many months; that hasnt happened.

you would genuinely need to abandon hope, grieve the relationship, commit emotionally to moving on, and becoming your best self. thats not something that can be faked, or proven. when its genuine, though, it can be very attractive.

i dont see another choice. the path has dead ended, and left you stuck in hurt.

Thank you for your advice, it is something I have always appreciated. I read your comment and had a good think today, and came to the conclusion that I agreed. The relationship talk with her wasn't working, it is time for serious change and whatever future that brings.

I thought about it and decided that for my sake (not for the sake of the relationship), I would send her one more message and one message only. I recorded a voice note. I said to her that I had no intention of changing her mind, I accept that she does not want a fresh start. For my own closure, I said that I loved her, and that I always supported her, and that I made mistakes and have recognised and grown from that. But that I know she never wants to have a fresh start, regardless of what I say or do. And that that's okay, and that I will accept that and let go. That I understand what she feels, and why she is feeling it, and that I wish her the best and that I will not bring up anything more in terms of "us". That this is it now.

She initially responded fine, saying "all the best" with a love heart. But a short while later, she opened up communication again asking me if this could be the last one. I could tell I had overwhelmed her again as I am apt to do, but it was different this time. This time it was for me, not to win her back. She told me the constant bombardment of emotionally manipulative notes has not done me any favours. That she likes me, but doesn't like my behaviour and that the more I do, the more sure she is she wants to stay away from me. She also said she always wanted to be my friend but my manipulative messages make it impossible. That it is childish, and that everything has been about me since breaking up. That I've got what I wanted. Some more talk happened and we ended both saying we hope we can speak soon.

Again, I understand this overwhelmed her a bit. I did not double down though, I accepted. I don't know if I'll ever understand how sending a message for closure and saying I accept how you feel and will leave things at that is manipulative. Perhaps it's me that's the issue here, I feel like I'm crazy but maybe it really is me. Regardless, I sent the message to cement the fact that there is one hand left to play, which is to grieve. Maybe in doing so I burnt some bridges. Maybe sending that last message was a mistake, but it felt relieving to send and it felt right. At the end of the day, what's done is done, and going forward I will not be bringing it up with her. The time for that has passed I feel. I don't know where the path goes from here, but it feels like something that I can let go of trying to control. I still love her and want to be with her, so I hope one day things by some miracle work out. But I guess the best thing to do now is almost pretend she doesn't exist and go NC.