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Relationship Partner with BPD (Straight and LGBT+) => Romantic Relationship | Bettering a Relationship or Reversing a Breakup => Topic started by: RichardLover55 on July 20, 2020, 07:41:48 AM



Title: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 20, 2020, 07:41:48 AM
My girlfriend left me a month ago and I never wrote to her again, I did not block her on social media but I'm ignoring her, it's practically a no contact. She posts stories where she seems outraged that I have not looked for her again, a contradiction ! If I keep ignoring her, there's a chance she's going to do it ? I read that making you believe that you are really gone, is the best way to get the attention of a bpd, it usually works ? We are in the same class at school and and I'll see her again in September.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Flightfar on July 20, 2020, 10:00:57 AM
I've gone without contact for a few weeks and I haven't heard anything from my exBPD. I don't know what that means.

But don't contact her, sooner or later she will come to you. At least that would sound like it? It's so hard to understand their thoughts and actions...


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 20, 2020, 10:39:10 AM
I've gone without contact for a few weeks and I haven't heard anything from my exBPD. I don't know what that means.

But don't contact her, sooner or later she will come to you. At least that would sound like it? It's so hard to understand their thoughts and actions...
She left me saying that she no longer felt what she had before, that I would be happy with another sooner or later etc. So out of nowhere, the day before she could not stand without me. I also stopped watching her stories on social media, she constantly posts things where she says those who love me follow me, phrases like this.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Football2000 on July 20, 2020, 10:44:58 AM
She left me saying that she no longer felt what she had before, that I would be happy with another sooner or later etc. So out of nowhere, the day before she could not stand without me. I also stopped watching her stories on social media, she constantly posts things where she says those who love me follow me, phrases like this.

If that is directed at you, that's kind of passive. It also seems like she's trying to get at you. Probably the best thing to do is continue with not reading her messages on social media and wait.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 20, 2020, 10:47:59 AM
I can't believe she threw it all away like that. It may be a test, how long can it last ?


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 20, 2020, 10:53:48 AM
If that is directed at you, that's kind of passive. It also seems like she's trying to get at you. Probably the best thing to do is continue with not reading her messages on social media and wait.
She looks at my friends' social stories, probably to see if they are there. She writes things like this : "I make a toast to the face of those who do not love me". I didn't really understand her, she left me, i stop chase her because i don't wanna make things worse. She hasn't written to me in a month.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Flightfar on July 20, 2020, 01:19:58 PM
Must be exhausting, when she clearly plays games with you :/

I don't know how long such episodes/tests/whatever lasts, it would be interesting to get inside their heads.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 20, 2020, 04:39:27 PM
Must be exhausting, when she clearly plays games with you :/

I don't know how long such episodes/tests/whatever lasts, it would be interesting to get inside their heads.
I expect a contact between now and September before the start of school, but I don't know what to expect. Do you think that's possible ? I think so, too, who knows what's going through her mind. The worst thing is that being ignored by a person who until the day before told you that you were the love of his life is upsetting ! The change of personality, she is now completely different from how she posed with me. The last time I spoke to her, she was so cold on me.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Goosey on July 20, 2020, 05:21:06 PM
They come back.
  When they need money.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Goosey on July 20, 2020, 05:23:16 PM
As true as the sun rises in the East.
 Looking forward to using the blank expression I have been trying to master.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 21, 2020, 02:36:45 AM
As true as the sun rises in the East.
 Looking forward to using the blank expression I have been trying to master.
It hurts so much, I still hope she come back.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Flightfar on July 21, 2020, 03:22:46 AM
Even if she came back, she might do the same again and you would get hurt over and over again :/


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Gemsforeyes on July 21, 2020, 04:24:48 AM
Dear Richard-

I’m very sorry you’re feeling so much pain.  These relationships are very confusing, in large part because our partners have very unstable emotions (love you one day, hate you the next) and because they have no idea WHO they are.  So in my experience (I’m old...62!), I’ve come to understand since they have little understanding of who they are, they have NO IDEA who you are, either.  And they will not and cannot take the time to know you.  Really try to think about this.

And something else.  pwBPD traits seem to operate in emotional extremes.  And believe me, this characteristic seems to continue into a person’s 60’s if he’s taken no steps to heal himself.  Mine didn’t. 

When you’re painted white, you’re the BEST, most AMAZING LOVE in the universe.  When he RAGED, he called me the most vile, hateful words I’d ever heard... these words from a grown man.  And yes, he smeared me based on nothing at all.  Just sickening.

I have had other important relationships.  I finally realized There was nothing in this relationship that was the BEST.  But he had me convinced for awhile.  It just felt that way because the bad parts WERE the WORST I’d ever felt.  And prior to this I had been through a very painful divorce.

Another thing.  You say the day before the split “she could not stand without you”.  I can see how perhaps that made you feel good, strong and worthy.  But your worth goes deeper than that.  And in life, we all deserve a partner to support us, to stand along side us.  If YOU are required to literally keep your partner standing, who is there to hear you and support you in your times of need?   Could she?  Did she? 

In the eight months you shared, was she there FOR you?  Did she respect your boundaries around school studies, projects, exams, family obligations?  Please Think these things through...

So yes... sadness and pain.  And yes, confusion.  Now that I truly grasp the concepts of BPD/NPD, and the impacts of his repeated actions and rages, my remaining struggle is why my self-respect was so low.  I’m “fixing” me.

And you, my friend?  I take it you’re beautifully young.  In school.  A whole wonderful life full of opportunities ahead of you.  If there are things about yourself that you wish to alter, to make better, work on those things now.  For you, not her.  If there were holes in the relationship before, and she comes back, those holes will still be there unless you figure out how to fill them.  If not, this cycle WILL continue, and you could find yourself here in 12 years begging for help to escape this relationship (marriage) and save your future self and your  three young frightened children from the destruction of a disordered wife and mother.  This is where I believe my stepson is... he is 31 and I have lost him.

CHOOSE people who are good and supportive, who are in-tuned and self-reflective enough to honestly see themselves.  And to get help for themselves when they ought to.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

p.s. sorry for getting carried away with the very long response...


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 21, 2020, 07:45:12 AM
Dear Richard-

I’m very sorry you’re feeling so much pain.  These relationships are very confusing, in large part because our partners have very unstable emotions (love you one day, hate you the next) and because they have no idea WHO they are.  So in my experience (I’m old...62!), I’ve come to understand since they have little understanding of who they are, they have NO IDEA who you are, either.  And they will not and cannot take the time to know you.  Really try to think about this.

And something else.  pwBPD traits seem to operate in emotional extremes.  And believe me, this characteristic seems to continue into a person’s 60’s if he’s taken no steps to heal himself.  Mine didn’t.  

When you’re painted white, you’re the BEST, most AMAZING LOVE in the universe.  When he RAGED, he called me the most vile, hateful words I’d ever heard... these words from a grown man.  And yes, he smeared me based on nothing at all.  Just sickening.

I have had other important relationships.  I finally realized There was nothing in this relationship that was the BEST.  But he had me convinced for awhile.  It just felt that way because the bad parts WERE the WORST I’d ever felt.  And prior to this I had been through a very painful divorce.

Another thing.  You say the day before the split “she could not stand without you”.  I can see how perhaps that made you feel good, strong and worthy.  But your worth goes deeper than that.  And in life, we all deserve a partner to support us, to stand along side us.  If YOU are required to literally keep your partner standing, who is there to hear you and support you in your times of need?   Could she?  Did she?  

In the eight months you shared, was she there FOR you?  Did she respect your boundaries around school studies, projects, exams, family obligations?  Please Think these things through...

So yes... sadness and pain.  And yes, confusion.  Now that I truly grasp the concepts of BPD/NPD, and the impacts of his repeated actions and rages, my remaining struggle is why my self-respect was so low.  I’m “fixing” me.

And you, my friend?  I take it you’re beautifully young.  In school.  A whole wonderful life full of opportunities ahead of you.  If there are things about yourself that you wish to alter, to make better, work on those things now.  For you, not her.  If there were holes in the relationship before, and she comes back, those holes will still be there unless you figure out how to fill them.  If not, this cycle WILL continue, and you could find yourself here in 12 years begging for help to escape this relationship (marriage) and save your future self and your  three young frightened children from the destruction of a disordered wife and mother.  This is where I believe my stepson is... he is 31 and I have lost him.

CHOOSE people who are good and supportive, who are in-tuned and self-reflective enough to honestly see themselves.  And to get help for themselves when they ought to.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

p.s. sorry for getting carried away with the very long response...
Thank you, despite the problems that she had she told me so many beautiful things and I was convinced that she really felt love for me. I didn't think it would end like this, at school we were inseparable, as well as in life. I really thought I found the right person, sure, she was jealous of so many things, she had all the problems that a bpd has. But I was convinced that with psychotherapy she would improve, she told me that I had a positive influence on her, but I've never been able to get her to a therapist. During the quarantine we were constantly making video calls. I still can't believe you left me out of nowhere. How do you think I should behave in class? I'm panicking. On social media she ignores me and my friends, but she keeps looking at the stories, at the same time she likes the posts of my hairdresser where I took her to give him a gift. The fact that I pretend it doesn't exist hurts me.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Flightfar on July 21, 2020, 08:12:13 AM
I feel your pain. My exBPD also told me so many beautiful things and we have so many wonderful memories and I cry when I think about all those beautiful things we experienced together. He made me feel so loved. This situation hurts so damn much and everything reminds me of that person. My heart is so broken. It all just ended suddenly, for no good reason.

But no matter how loving and good partner you are, that desire for healing must start from the other person. If she doesn’t get proper help, this cycle will continue until you are just an empty shell. It's painful, I know. But it’s also painful to think about how you are going to get hurt so many times in the future that you might even lose your will to live.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 21, 2020, 08:38:16 AM
I feel your pain. My exBPD also told me so many beautiful things and we have so many wonderful memories and I cry when I think about all those beautiful things we experienced together. He made me feel so loved. This situation hurts so damn much and everything reminds me of that person. My heart is so broken. It all just ended suddenly, for no good reason.

But no matter how loving and good partner you are, that desire for healing must start from the other person. If she doesn’t get proper help, this cycle will continue until you are just an empty shell. It's painful, I know. But it’s also painful to think about how you are going to get hurt so many times in the future that you might even lose your will to live.
Now i'm think that she's gone forever, maybe i'm wrong. Usually they try to come back ? She's probably mad at my dad because he insulted her by text, I apologized. She told me that I was a great guy and that I had done nothing wrong, it was just she who had changed and felt guilty about it.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Flightfar on July 21, 2020, 08:45:54 AM
Usually they will come back if they have not found new supply and they feel lonely or bored. It depends. There's surely nothing wrong with you, it's about her and her problems, like she said.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 21, 2020, 08:52:15 AM
Usually they will come back if they have not found new supply and they feel lonely or bored. It depends. There's surely nothing wrong with you, it's about her and her problems, like she said.
She told me she always left her exes, but when she was jealous of me she always told me that exes always come back. I don't know what to do in class if we don't get back together between now and September. I'm gone from his life, it seems to me the best thing. I didn't beg, I think it would have been humiliating for me and that I would have done worse. Maybe that way she's going to miss me.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 21, 2020, 09:08:01 AM
She promised me she wouldn't leave me for another guy, but of course she might have lied to me. I know she goes out a lot with a friend of hers and I'm convinced that her friend pushed her to leave me, that's what I felt.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Flightfar on July 21, 2020, 09:17:22 AM
I am so sorry that your heart is broken too. BPD is a severe disorder and breakups aren't easy. But I promise you'll survive, no matter what happens.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 21, 2020, 10:15:15 AM
I am so sorry that your heart is broken too. BPD is a severe disorder and breakups aren't easy. But I promise you'll survive, no matter what happens.
I try to be strong, I lost my mother last year and this girl had helped me overcome the pain, now she herself has become another pain.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Flightfar on July 21, 2020, 10:42:21 AM
Don’t forget how valuable and strong person you are. She just needs to get her own problems treated so that she can be in a stable relationship. Even if she receives treatment, there is no guarantee that she won't do all this again. Your mental health is also important.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 21, 2020, 01:15:43 PM
Don’t forget how valuable and strong person you are. She just needs to get her own problems treated so that she can be in a stable relationship. Even if she receives treatment, there is no guarantee that she won't do all this again. Your mental health is also important.
I hope to be better soon and to be strong enough to see her again in class, she will probably ignore me.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Goosey on July 21, 2020, 06:50:56 PM
It’s a heartbreaking gift when they move on. I won’t speculate on what they feel.
  Human nature kicks in because we care deeply about them.
Be kind to yourself and others that’s all we can do.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: once removed on July 22, 2020, 02:40:23 AM
hi RichardLover55,

in order to get an ex back, its most important to understand why the breakup occurred in the first place; what went wrong, and how its going to work if the two of you were to get back together.

why did she break up with you? what did she say? how long had the two of you been together, and what led up to the breakup?

that would be a good place to start.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 22, 2020, 02:47:54 AM
hi RichardLover55,

in order to get an ex back, its most important to understand why the breakup occurred in the first place; what went wrong, and how its going to work if the two of you were to get back together.

why did she break up with you? what did she say? how long had the two of you been together, and what led up to the breakup?

that would be a good place to start.
She told me out of nowhere that she didn't feel love anymore and that I was too much for her, that I deserved better and that if she didn't leave me she definitely would do it myself. She was afraid of the relationship, she said only excuses for me.  We've been together 8 months, she's completely ignoring me now, I haven't heard from her in a month. The last time I spoke to her was very cold, she looked like another person. I'm not chasing her, I see her social media secretly and it looks like she's being the victim. For example, she writes things like : "Whoever loves me to follow otherwise goodbye", things like this. In September I will see her again in class, what can be done?


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: once removed on July 22, 2020, 02:52:03 AM
it was an 8 month relationship.

was there any sign that things were not going smoothly? did she hint at why she thought you were too much for her?


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 22, 2020, 02:57:04 AM
it was an 8 month relationship.

was there any sign that things were not going smoothly? did she hint at why she thought you were too much for her?
She said it was wrong, that she had become a problem for me. She say things like this : "How can you stay with someone like me?" She was so uncomfortable in the last period, then unfortunately she had a problem with alcohol. I went out of my way to make her realize I wasn't going to run away, but things ended as you know.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: once removed on July 22, 2020, 03:13:40 AM
did the two of you fight or argue about things in the 8 months you were together? if so, what about?


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 22, 2020, 03:19:01 AM
did the two of you fight or argue about things in the 8 months you were together? if so, what about?
Not too much, more recently because she was looking for any excuse to fight. She was jealous of my grades at school, in February she had argued over a crap and said that something had broken between us. But then everything was taken up as if nothing was, during the quarantine she was very much in love, she also made me the portrait and also of my dog. She's a designer in her spare time.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: once removed on July 22, 2020, 03:21:50 AM
Excerpt
in February she had argued over a crap and said that something had broken between us.

tell us more.

what did she argue about? what did she say had broken between you?


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 22, 2020, 03:28:15 AM
tell us more.

what did she argue about? what did she say had broken between you?
She said that only because during that week I pointed out to her that we couldn't always get out of school earlier, because we went with her car that pleased her. I didn't know yet that he had this disorder, she saw it as an attack.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: once removed on July 22, 2020, 03:30:45 AM
understanding how she saw it is important.

if you want to know why the two of you broke up, its important to gain, as much as possible, her perspective, not dismiss it.

can you elaborate about what happened? what you said isnt clear.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 22, 2020, 03:34:32 AM
understanding how she saw it is important.

if you want to know why the two of you broke up, its important to gain, as much as possible, her perspective, not dismiss it.

can you elaborate about what happened? what you said isnt clear.
She was very confused, when she broke up with me she used a lot of excuses. She told me that she was in love and now she was no longer, that the fault was not mine and that I had done nothing wrong. She had kept me at a distance the week before, but I could not imagine that she would leave me. She said he helped his sister with an exam, I believed it. Nothing strange happened, she did everything. I don't know the actual reason, from what she said, it seems like she was afraid that I'd leave her and that she left me as self-defense first.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: once removed on July 22, 2020, 03:38:55 AM
RichardLover55, she may have been using the "let you down easy" approach.

when that happens, the reasons given can be vague. quite often, the approach is "its not you, its me".

whats important now is to sort through all of what she told you - throughout the relationship - and understand what she was saying. what was broken between the two of you? how, now, would it be fixed?


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 22, 2020, 03:52:05 AM
RichardLover55, she may have been using the "let you down easy" approach.

when that happens, the reasons given can be vague. quite often, the approach is "its not you, its me".

whats important now is to sort through all of what she told you - throughout the relationship - and understand what she was saying. what was broken between the two of you? how, now, would it be fixed?
She changed progressively towards me, but after the quarantine the descent was very fast. I think things were going well between us, it's all in his head. In a couple it is normal to argue every now and then. I was reminded of a particular interesting, the day before she left me she wanted me to buy her cigarettes... I didn't want to, so she started kissing me and I said to her, ""How come you act so often you want to get something out of me?" She had recently become unmanageable, she was doing virtually nothing on her own, and i was angry. I have my difficulties at home and another thing that bored her were my problems, that is, she wanted to talk to her constantly about hers and never listened to me. I've never overloaded her anyway.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: once removed on July 22, 2020, 04:53:37 AM
she broke up with you.

you think her reasons are in her head and not real.

this is often the case between couples that break up. it was the case for me, too.

its been a while since the two of you broke up. isnt it time, if you want to reconcile, to reconsider? to consider that the two of you may not have been on the same page, and that, even with best intentions, you may not have seen where she was coming from, and may not now?


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 22, 2020, 06:02:29 AM
she broke up with you.

you think her reasons are in her head and not real.

this is often the case between couples that break up. it was the case for me, too.

its been a while since the two of you broke up. isnt it time, if you want to reconcile, to reconsider? to consider that the two of you may not have been on the same page, and that, even with best intentions, you may not have seen where she was coming from, and may not now?
She was in love with me, I'm sure. At first I was the hesitant one, probably his problem took over. What could I do to try to get her back together ? Basically threw 8 months of love out of nowhere, we were just inseparable, It completely shocked me. Isn't chasing her the best thing?


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Flightfar on July 22, 2020, 06:19:39 AM
Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do other than give her time and space and hope for the best. We understand that you are in shock but at the moment, the best solution is to respect her decision. She has certainly begun to fear her own feelings and has seen the best option to break up with you.
Same goes for me, I can do absolutely nothing about my ex but respect his decision.
 


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 22, 2020, 06:37:26 AM
Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do other than give her time and space and hope for the best. We understand that you are in shock but at the moment, the best solution is to respect her decision. She has certainly begun to fear her own feelings and has seen the best option to break up with you.
Same goes for me, I can do absolutely nothing about my ex but respect his decision.
 
In fact I'm not doing anything, I'd just do worse.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 22, 2020, 07:28:09 AM
The thing that hurts me the most is that I couldn't really talk to her, it's monstrous.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 22, 2020, 07:46:55 AM
Lately she was crying and telling me she needed help and I was there ! I never abandoned her, she has the trauma of her father, she has separated parents. Then she started saying she wanted to protect me from her and we got to the point of breaking, these other details came to mind.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Flightfar on July 22, 2020, 10:13:44 AM
She has thought what's best for you.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 22, 2020, 04:49:19 PM
She has thought what's best for you.
Actually yes, but in my opinion it was an excuse not to pass as the antagonist. When she broke up with me, she used a lot of common phrases. I wish I didn't see her again, it would be easier ! Instead, I'm going to see her at school and it's going to hurt me awful beacause i still love her. Do they usually come back after a certain amount of time ?


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Flightfar on July 23, 2020, 02:10:37 AM
Funny how similar situation you have to mine. My ex also used a lot of common phrases like ''you will be happy with someone else''. I also thought that things were going well between us...
However, the difference is that your girlfriend was not aggressive and hostile to you? My ex was very aggressive when he broke up with me.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 23, 2020, 02:30:22 AM
Funny how similar situation you have to mine. My ex also used a lot of common phrases like ''you will be happy with someone else''. I also thought that things were going well between us...
However, the difference is that your girlfriend was not aggressive and hostile to you? My ex was very aggressive when he broke up with me.
No she wasn't aggressive because I think it's a quiet bpd, she keeps everything inside then every now and then explodes with rage, it happened like that. It's crazy how someone who has this disorder behaves exactly the same way, In any case, being such unpredictable people, they may even come back. We were engaged in the house, she knew my father, I still had to know her mother though.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Flightfar on July 23, 2020, 03:12:06 AM
My ex has said a few times that he never wants to see me again and never wants to hear from me again and has still come back. So I think anything is possible.

I understand very well that it hurts you. It hurts me too. It hurts so much when the person you love suddenly does this.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 23, 2020, 03:47:54 AM
My ex has said a few times that he never wants to see me again and never wants to hear from me again and has still come back. So I think anything is possible.

I understand very well that it hurts you. It hurts me too. It hurts so much when the person you love suddenly does this.
Mine said breaks are of no use. I asked her, think about it ! At most let's take a break !


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: Flightfar on July 23, 2020, 08:11:43 AM
So is this the first time when she broke up with you?


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: RichardLover55 on July 23, 2020, 08:27:31 AM
So is this the first time when she broke up with you?
Yeah, first time in eight months, I'm afraid she's going away from me forever. We saw each other again after two months of quarantine, so it's six months plus two remotely.


Title: Re: What's the best way to get my ex back ?
Post by: once removed on July 24, 2020, 03:42:54 AM
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