BPDFamily.com

I'm feeling a good deal of despair because my 24 year old daughter has decided to cut my husband and me out of her life. She has BPD and has decided recently that I am to blame for it. Actually, she most likely has felt that way for a while but never articulated it so plainly before. I've never understood why, because, though I am far from a perfect parent, I never thought of myself as abusive. I've had my moments of anger, but I never hit my daughter (or my son, with whom I get along fine) and I was usually careful about my words, as well.

Her father and I split up a long time ago. He dislikes me intensely and has made this clear to my daughter for years. He's a recovering alcoholic and an extremely angry person. I've tried to make peace with him over the years, but he refuses to talk to me. I can't help but feel that he shares at least some of the blame for our daughter's problems.

My current husband and I have been together 18 years. He basically raised our daughter. He is a good and loving man, and she has no issues with him. Still, she cut him off as well. Collateral damage, I guess, since he's married to me. It's awful, because he has stage 4 cancer, and she knows how ill he is. Though he's doing surprisingly well, his time on earth is uncertain.

Why do BPD people seem so damn self-centered? I feel as though my daughter chose the worst possible time to make her exit. My husband and I recently moved 1500 miles away to a warmer climate, and the estrangement began a couple of months later. I'm afraid we might never see or speak to her again. She has blocked us on social media. We have both sent regular emails that have gone unanswered. It's like a living hell for us.

*welcome*

I'm so sorry about the estrangement. 

I'm curious about what your daughter had to say about you guys moving.

Is she still in contact with her brother?

Best,

FF

Hello:

I'm just learning how to navigate this site. It's a bit confusing. I saw a response to my post, including a couple of questions, when I checked this site on my phone. Now, on my laptop, I can't see the response. I'm going to answer the questions that person asked, anyway, in the hope that they'll see it.

My son and daughter have been in contact since the estrangement. I told my son about my daughter's decision to cut me off, and he seemed confused by it.

Since then, the two of them have been in touch via instant message. He lives far away, in Europe. Neither of them mentioned the estrangement to each other.

When my husband and I moved away, my daughter seemed very unemotional about our departure. For a BPD person, she's rather adept at appearing calm and unconcerned when it suits her. We saw her right before we left for our new home in the Southwest. It was during the beginning of the pandemic and we had to stand 6 feet apart outdoors. She seemed like she was in a hurry to get away from us.

She told me during our last instant message conversation that I have constant meltdowns, have only spoken to her harshly during her whole life, and that she was deleting me from her life. Of course, she's the one who has meltdowns, but she doesn't seem to know that.

The whole thing just seems hopeless.

 I am so sorry you are going through this. My 31 year old daughter just cut me off. It's heartbreaking. I have read that even though she has cut us off, we don't have to cut her off. Think about it. Isn't the biggest fear of someone with BPD abandonment? That's why I'm going to keep reaching out to my daughter. She lives on the west coast and I am on the east. I'm going to send her funny cards and texts. I actually feel like the cut off is a test to see / prove how much i love  her.

I'm wondering if you are at all relieved? The conversations with my daughter are EXHAUSTING to say the least and I'm thankful for the break in communication.

I think I'm starting to get the hang of using this site.

I've heard mixed thoughts and opinions about the wisdom of continuing to contact an estranged child. I'm afraid of upsetting her further, not giving her the space she claims she needs.

Today I re-read our final instant message conversation, from last month, though it was quite painful for me. She was adamant that I needed to apologize right then and there for my transgressions as a parent, or she would cut me off, delete me on social media, etc. I was angry and flummoxed and did not apologize. When she accused me of having constant meltdowns, I reminded her of her numerous instances of borderline rage. We're talking Carrie-style tantrums here. Her response? "You break people, Mom."

She doesn't have a phone number, as she communicates with the world entirely through instant message and text. Somehow, her cell is set up for internet service but not phone service.

That leaves email and snail mail as contact options. I can keep sending her emails, I suppose, but I feel awful when she doesn't answer. My husband sent her an email two days ago and received no reply. For someone who is so afraid of abandonment, she is doing a stellar job of distancing herself. Also, I suspect her counselor has applauded this move on her part.

I appreciate your feedback a lot, and hope you and your daughter can reconcile. Hopefully sooner rather than later. Estrangement from a child is bad enough. Estrangement from a BPD child is unbearably hard.

I should clarify that my daughter communicates only via instant message, not text.

Also, I forgot to address your question. I'm not yet at the point of relief about her silence. I would love to feel that way, as it would offer me some solace.

I think that's it! Thanks again.

I am so sorry for the estrangement of your relationship.  Also dealing with your husbands medical needs must be difficult.  Do you have anyone supporting you through this life change? Hospice or a support group?  Do you think that your daughter is having a difficult time dealing with your husbands medical condition and inevitable departure? 

Taking good care of ourselves is important.  Please take great care of yourself. 

Thanks for your compassionate words, Breakwater Bill.

My husband and I are new to Arizona, and though we moved to a town where we do know a couple of people, we've done very little in-person socializing, due to the pandemic. The existence of covid-19 adds a level of difficulty that we wouldn't have to deal with during more normal times.

Fortunately, we're not in hospice territory at this point. A year after my husband's stage 4 diagnosis, his tumors have shrunk dramatically and he's still doing tai chi and taking 2 mile walks on a regular basis. I have to constantly tell him to walk a bit slower so I can keep up. Amazing! But of course, cancer can turn on a dime, and we're being quite vigilant. I'm still amazed (and angry) that our daughter chose this particular time to make her exit.

Yeah, she could well be doing the BPD thing--reject us out of fear of losing us, particularly my husband (her stepdad, who raised her since she was five). But she's not really angry with him, he is just collateral damage because she has decided to cut me off. She can't really talk to him but not me, so we both got excommunicated.

I think she's convinced I'm a toxic parent, which is a bitter pill to swallow. Her biological father (a recovering alcoholic and probable BPD person himself) gives her the silent treatment for weeks, but she always welcomes him back. Last year on her birthday, he threw her gifts in front of her door and stormed off because she forgot she was supposed to meet with him that day. Yet, somehow, I'm the awful one. Moms so often are held to a higher standard than dads.

I think my daughter's dad knows exactly how to manipulate her--reject her periodically so she doesn't have the chance to reject him first. Keep her off-balance and afraid he'll abandon her. I've never threatened to abandon my daughter, so I'm easier to manipulate than he is.

I'm far from perfect, and have made many mistakes of my own. But she won't allow me to apologize or make amends.

It really seems like an impossible situation.

Does she talk in general terms about you being a bad parent or does she have specific things the tries to communicate?

I'm trying to get a feel or how those chat sessions go/went.

Best,

FF

Hi formflier:

I have not heard from my daughter since our last IM conversation, a month and a half ago. At that time, she made it clear that she was deleting me from social media and cutting me off. Since then, crickets.

At the time, she was pretty specific about her complaints. She claimed I never think of how my behavior affects her (which is odd, because I often felt like I had to walk on eggshells around her. I guess this is a pretty typical fear amongst friends and relatives of BPD people). She said I had only talked to her like a "s@#*-eating child who needs a time out" (such an awful image), and that I have constant meltdowns. This completely blindsided me because she is the one who has meltdowns (AKA borderline rage). I pointed this out (probably unwisely) and her response was "you break people."

She demanded that I apologize on the spot for my behavior over the years and threatened to cut me off if I didn't. I was so freaked out by her anger that I refused to apologize. So the next thing I knew, I was blocked from her FB and Instagram, and that was the end of it.

That leaves regular email and snail mail as options. I have thought of getting in my car and driving 1500 miles to her doorstep or workplace, but I don't want to upset her even more. I never thought being a parent would end up like this.

Can I be so bold to suggest that during this "quiet time" that you focus on understanding the issues of communicating with a pwBPD?

Most likely these quiet times end for one reason or another and I would hope that you can have tools to help sooth inflamed emotions of a pwBPD.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

Estrangement is hard on a parent's heart.  However the first thing to remember is our kids are adults( speaking for myself too).   If they feel they need space and time, we can't force ourselves on them.   They have to be respected.  Also, give your daughter a chance to miss you.  You can click on my name to see more of my backstory.  
 
Like what was stated before, I agree that the energy you would like to spend on your daughter, turn that energy and attention onto self care.  I am trying to utilize this window of opportunity to work on myself and some days that is impossible, admittedly.

I challenge you to be proud of the parent you are-   she is living independently of you.  This is huge.  
You refused to cowtow to her demands, setting a healthy boundary with her.  By the way, I have been there , with the son yelling for me to apologize for something.  I did , hoping to keep the peace .  It didn't work as  He then found another excuse to rant  and keep on doing what he was doing.  The cycle becomes never ending, so good for you to not play into that.  

I also challenge you to try not to take her blocking you personally.  It's a very BPD typical thing.  They have trouble navigating feelings , communication , relationships, etc. Their blocking us in arbitrary to us , but in their minds, they are right.  After making tentative contact with me  earlier this year, my son blocked me because I wouldn't send him $$ to subsidize his habit/ addiction.  Next thing you know I got a ranting  nonsensical, rambling text and I became blocked and deleted.  
Hang tough.    Look at it this way, she made her choice when you put a boundary in place.    You are doing the right thing by letting it be even though it feels strange and terrifying and grief-making-because it is all of that.  

I forgot to mention but in addition, your husband is ill.  All the more reason to let your adult daughter be and you putting the focus into your own life.  Thank you for writing to us, this is a good first step.

Formflier:

I have been reading everything I can about BPD people during the past few weeks, as you might imagine. I cognitively understand their deep need for validation, and I can certainly see how this trait manifests in my daughter.

However, it's really hard to keep my cool when she has a splitting episode, because the all-or-nothing thinking comes to the fore. She is very intelligent and knows how to go right for the jugular. She is also absolutely convinced that she's right (which is funny, because she characterizes me as being so stubborn--guess the apple didn't fall so far from the tree after all).

The last episode was, of course, the worst ever. Lots of "you never" and "you always" statements, delivered in a lofty way that made it seem like she's been thinking this way for a long while and finally came to a difficult but necessary decision.

I'll be doing lots of introspection during this time, as you can imagine. But she has been emotionally distant for years, so introspection, guilt, fear, and regret have been my companions for a while.

Thanks again for your insight.

Swimmy55:

Thank you, as well. I'm going to try my best to be proud of my parenting job, but it feels like trying on an outfit that doesn't fit.

I'm so accustomed to feeling like I screwed up, like I could have done better, could have been more patient, emotionally present, helpful, etc. The idea of seeing myself as a good parent is a novel one, to say the least. I've read that BPD often stems from abuse and/or neglect in childhood, and I keep wracking my brain and beating myself up to ascertain what I did wrong.

Of course, her biological father wasn't much help. He's an extremely unhappy, angry, recovering alcoholic and chain-smoker, with lots of problems of his own. But I still can't pin all the blame on him. He moved out when she was five, and my daughter never really processed his departure. (though she spent a lot of time with him afterwards. I wanted to be fair, both to her and to him).

I feel like I should have been less fair, since the two of them think I was so unfair anyway. That sounds kinda irrational, I suppose, but it's frustrating to get so little credit.

I'd be doing more for myself if it weren't for the pandemic. My husband and I are together now 24-7, and most of the time we get along well. I have my writing (yes, I'm a writer) and I do yoga at home (no classes, I live in AZ). I am an extrovert and this isolation has been hard on me. If life ever gets back to "normal", I'll have a lot more outlets for self-care.

Thanks again for your help. I hope you and your son can get onto a more solid emotional footing. Parenting is exhausting under the best of circumstances, even when the "child" is an adult. An adult BPD child, even more so.

So..one of the things I hope we can help you develop is empathy for your daughters point of view.

Typically it's not hard for a parent, yet when they insist on "alternate reality"...and "the facts" don't matter...it can get really tricky.

Keep reading and think how you can validate without agreeing...

We also need to talk about boundaries and how to gracefully exit conversations or try to redirect them.

This a marathon, not a sprint...and really your number 1 job is taking care of yourself...your hubby and then when opportunity arises...try to connect with your daughter on an emotional level.

Best,

FF

formflier:

Sounds good. But I do wonder how to be empathetic and open while I'm being attacked and told that I am a bad parent, bad person, and literally the reason for all of my daughter's problems. It seems like it would take the patience of a Zen master. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Meanwhile, it looks like I will have lots of time to ponder whatever input I receive. My daughter has been doing DBT therapy for a while, and I strongly suspect, from some of the psychoanalytical verbiage in her last IM conversation with me, that her counselor has at least hinted I'm the main problem. So the counselor is most likely proud of her for dissolving the relationship.

I've read a lot of posts on this forum from parents who are frustrated because many counselors still adhere to the idea that BPD is usually due to parental abuse and/or neglect. New research suggests there may more of a genetic predisposition than what was previously known. My daughter mentioned in her IM that BPD stems from parental abuse of a sensitive child.

Since the core of BPD is "splitting", the belief that someone is all good or all bad, I'd think a good counselor would ask my daughter if she could think of positive aspects of my personality and our relationship. But I'm not a counselor, and I wasn't in the room (or phone or Zoom session) when the sessions were happening, so I have no real way of knowing what went down.

I just know I'm up against a mighty thick wall.

Do you really think that a counselor that has never met you would suggest to their patient that someone else is the main problem?

Does that sound like something a counselor would say?

or

Does that sound like something someone would say that is uncomfortable looking at themselves?

Best,

FF

Well, as a person who has seen a variety of counselors in my life, I've had good ones, and others that were...not as good. They can be as opinionated as anyone else. Or they can be stellar. It's a mixed bag, I think, like any profession.

Looking at myself and trying to figure out what I did wrong and how I could've/should've done it better has (unfortunately) been a major theme in my life. I'm a memoir writer, specifically focused on family of origin experiences, so I'm not lacking in introspection. But this is a situation where I can't just introspect my way out of it. That's part of what makes it so confounding.

It's worth noting that my son's perception of me is entirely different from my daughter's. We get along well. I asked my daughter during that last conversation if she feels I parented the two of them differently, or showed him any favoritism, and she said no, she'd never even thought about it. When I mentioned the new estrangement to my son, he seemed surprised and said, "I don't think of you as a bad mother or a bad person. At all."

I honestly don't believe this is all my fault, though of course there are many things I could have done differently, or better.

The other weird thing is that her recent behavior, and the ultimatum, as well as laying the blame for her BPD at my doorstep, all seem to be fairly recent developments. Today I scrolled backwards through a couple of years of our IMs. This took a while, as you might imagine.

Most of the IMs seemed pretty innocuous--the two of us making arrangements to get together so I could buy her dinner, her asking me for advice about a new boyfriend and a toxic roommate, me arranging to give her money so she could move into a new apartment, me giving her money to help her get back on her feet afterwards, me giving her money when she first lost her job after the pandemic, etc.

Her worst period was after the death of a close relative, a couple of years ago. I won't go into detail, but it was very traumatic for the whole family, especially my daughter. She initiated a couple of cutting incidents and a suicide attempt afterwards. I reached out to her many times, as I was incredibly worried for her. She assured me that I was not to blame for her BPD and that I had never been anything other than supportive. I told her I would always be there for her if she needed someone to listen.

So, I think she feels abandoned since my husband and I moved to AZ only a few months ago. And then there's the coronavirus, which is driving a lot of us bonkers. And...well, I do wonder about this new counselor she has now.

That's all for now, I promise.

I recognize what you are doing because I have done it myself.  You are scouring through everything , leaving no stone unturned, for some clue of what caused this.  On a deeper level you could possibly be looking for something you have done to cause this.  Rest easy, Mother, you did not cause this. Scouring through gives us a sense of control.  I even do it now from time to time.  The thing is, we ( I am speaking for myself as well) have to accept the fact that this is something going on in their brains and we can't really know what is going on in their brains.  They themselves don't even know what is going on in their brains.  

I gently suggest - Please don't get into the twisty pretzel trap of trying to find the right thing you can say/ do to make her better and make this all go away.  Only she has the power to deal with her BPD.
~ The conversations between her therapist are theirs alone  since she is an adult.  Please consider letting this go.  I know it's hard.  You  can't go by what she says to you regarding her sessions either.  
~ You as an adult, have the right to move and live anywhere you want.  You have the same rights as she does.

So to clarify...

Have you experienced a counselor that told you that you were not the problem, named someone else as the problem they had never met and insisted you communicate their judgment to the person the counselor had never met?

Best,

FF

Formflier:

Yes, I have encountered counselors who suggested that other people were to blame for my problems.

Also, there are many counselors who blame their client's parents for their dysfunction. Read the "Is this all my fault? Did I cause this?" thread (warning: it's long) on this forum to get a sense of other peoples' frustration about the prevalent psychoanalytical theory that BPD is caused by parental abuse and/or neglect.

It seems to me that you are being rather combative, and I want to politely request that you be more aware of my feelings about this issue, or we should end our conversation here.

Swimmy55:

Thanks. I feel as though I'm walking the line between trying to understand what went wrong so I don't do it again in the future, and accepting the fact that I can't control the past and letting it go.

It has only been a month and a half since my daughter initiated the estrangement. So I'm in the "what the heck went wrong?" phase of my grief. Still in shock, I guess. It's my goal to get to acceptance, but I have to go through this long, painful process.

I will start therapy (again) next week, with a new counselor here in AZ, so we'll see how that goes.

I know you've been there yourself, so you understand. Many, if not most of the parents have gone through a similar process. It's so tough, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I guess, over time, we learn coping strategies, though I'm sure the pain doesn't diminish completely.

Thanks again for your compassion.

Wow, can I ever relate to my son's therapist stating in front of him, his father , his step mother and me that it was my fault he was the way he was.  ( This is when he was  15)  This was Sheppard Pratt in Towson MD, so a very esteemed institution.     I had to go to her supervisor to complain about this ( didn't do much good).   I will write more later, but know you are not alone.  I am so happy you will see a therapist( I am doing that as well). 

Oh my...please don't take this as combativeness, my goal was to introduce a different perspective and to make sure  we each understand each others life experiences.  

For instance...I had a "biblical counselor" claim that the Bible empowered him to overrule my VA doctors and that in fact I'm not a disabled veteran.  Obviously our counseling relationship ended and in fact my relationship with that church ended as well.

So...there are bad counselors out there.  That being said I would NOT recommend you take what your daughter said as an accurate recitation of the counselors words or intent.  

Is it possible it happened..yes.  

Is it likely?  Well, I would say not..especially if this counselor is an actual licensed mental health professional, since that would most likely be viewed by licensing boards as unethical behavior.

The most parsimonious explanation is that your daughter misunderstood something the counselor said and also felt more comfortable "pointing the finger" at someone else...rather than looking in the mirror.

If you ever get a chance to have additional conversation with your daughter about this...I would recommend you express concern and ask to speak to the counselor so you can understand and possibly heal the issue about which this counselor has made a judgment.

If it's a real issue...you will likely get access.

If it's not..then it's likely a "unfixable" and "un-understanble" problem that pwBPD often like to have, which appears to help them maintain victim status.

Again..   :hug: :hug: :hug:

Please don't take my words as combative.

Best,

FF

Formflier:

Thanks for the clarification. I really do appreciate it.

It's not my place to interfere in any way with my daughter's counseling process. She'd be unlikely to supply me with the name of the counselor, anyway, if we did start speaking again. And, if she resumed communication, I'd be most likely be too overjoyed to even think of asking.

She's entitled to her process, even if I disagree. Still, I am frustrated by the sudden vilification after all this time. I love my daughter and want her back, but I can't rush the resolution or magically fix a longstanding problem.

Thanks again for the taking the time to clarify your points and for sticking with the discussion.

Swimmy55:

Yes, I am also glad that I'll be resuming counseling, now that I'm in a new locale. I had a wonderful counselor in WA state, so I got kind of spoiled.

I really have nothing against counselors, of course! A good one is a godsend. The others, not so much.

Sorry to hear about your experience. We parents experience so much guilt anyway. The last thing we need to hear is someone insisting our child's mental health condition is all our fault.

Right..and just to be clear, discussing it with her without participating would fall into interfering (IMO).

Very wise of you to let her counsel and they talk about whatever they talk about.

Best,

FF

Hey MsLeah,
I totally get this - we have been dealing with my cancer and our relationship with my adult daughter blew up at about the same time. I am convinced her sudden blaming of me coincided with my diagnosis, out of her deeper fear of abandonment (my death). I have seen this before with my one (out of 5) siblings who is also BPD.

I totally agree with Swimmy55 when they advise that you not try to do a deep dive into seeking reasons to blame yourself. In a way, blaming yourself is a way of being co-dependent, and I have found the best and healthiest approach is to take care of yourself and your husband in loving ways.

Self-care and self-love sends a powerful message and modeling for your daughter. We only send messages to my BPD daughter around holidays and events, that are brief and appropriate. And we never respond to blaming or angry messages from her. That approach seems to have helped her get a least a little reoriented.

Having a break from dealing with a BPD child is a chance to focus on your own needs and I am sending you a wish for hope and ease in what you have been feeling - good luck!

Thanks, Thanks! :)

I've been taking a break from this board for a couple of days, since I was on it so much for the past week. Trying to get my head on straight, and take care of myself and my husband.

I'm certainly working on self-love and self-care. Since my daughter lives 1500 miles away and has remained true to her word not to contact me for any reason, I'm sure she won't notice these efforts. But I'm doing it for myself, because I certainly need it.

I'm so sorry to read about your cancer diagnosis, and hope you're receiving good treatment. My husband has been fortunate in that his treatment has been exemplary, both here in AZ and in our previous home (WA). We are coming up on the one-year anniversary of his stage 4 diagnosis, and he's doing remarkably well.

Please take care, and thanks again for your kind response.

i hope that youll stick around. you dont have to do this alone, and experts suggest having a strong, consistent support group.

how to be empathetic when someone levels attacks at you and cuts you off?

its hard, to say the least.

i imagine that when my ex was telling me i was a jerk, the worst boyfriend in the world, all the things i never did for her, i was probably thinking "well thats not true, im a decent guy, i try my best, and ive definitely done those things". and while i was doing that, i was missing what she was really saying. which is easy to do! our bpd loved ones tend to speak in such over the top terms.

but thats what really listening with empathy is all about. its about being able to step away a bit from our hurt, its about being able to step away from what is over the top, and about really listening to what a person who, inherently, struggles with communication, is trying to communicate.

someone developing BPD traits is not necessarily about growing up in an abusive household. certainly thats true some of the time, and thats what the earliest research pointed to, but you need look no further than this board to see some very, deeply, loving mothers. BPD traits are quite often more about a highly sensitive person in a family that spoke a different language. i dont have BPD myself, but thats kind of my background as an HSP. one example is that my parents always told me theyd always love me, no matter what. usually in the same conversation was the notion that theyd love me no less if i failed at something, so long as i did my best. somewhere along the way, i think i internalized the idea that i was primarily loveable only when i was at my best, far from what they were trying to communicate!

for right now, as heartbreaking as things are, i might give it some time before reaching out. if you try to be nonchalant, it will likely be perceived as invalidating. if you try to be direct, youre probably opening a can of worms.

i would think long and hard. is there anything you want to apologize for? thats a rhetorical question that you dont need to answer now. and even if there is, i might wait.

and if there isnt, it might be best to let the ice thaw for a while.

Once Removed:

Wise advice. I was doing well, focusing on my husband and myself, and keeping fairly steady for the past three or so weeks. But I had an uneasy feeling in my gut, kind of a mother's intuition. My daughter lives in Portland, and she is very political. So, every couple of days I Googled her name to see if she'd gotten into trouble.

As you most likely know, Portland has been the epicenter of Black Lives Matter demonstrations for some time now. I am all for demonstrations, but not violence or rioting. Well, last night I got the news I'd been fearing. My daughter had been arrested with 24 other people for trying to set fire to a police station.

I sense her involvement was minor, because she had only two charges--disorderly conduct and interfering with a peace officer. The Portland DA announced today that the city won't pursue folks who only have those charges, just ones that involve resisting arrest and more serious, violent infractions. I found this out from doing more internet research.

But she was there, and she wound up getting off scot free with no bail, no charges, etc. I'm relieved but also afraid this will embolden her. Also, in a bizarre twist, a well-known right-wing journalist posted the mugshots of all the arrestees on his Twitter page so people could take potshots at them. Someone posted the name of my daughter's workplace on hers. Her mugshot got over 1800 retweets. She was thoroughly doxxed.

Her bio-dad, who despises me (I'm afraid it's mutual) and has been actively encouraging the estrangement, was pleased with the arrest and bragged extensively about it on his Facebook page.

So that's what I'm up against. I broke my cool and my silence and gave him hell. My son sent her an instant message beforehand, asking if she wanted to talk, and she refused to respond, even though they've kept in contact after she and I became estranged last June. Her dad is proud of her and she will go out of her way to keep his approval, even if it means continuing to ignore her mother and her stepdad, who has stage 4 cancer and raised her since she was six.

I couldn't make this s@#* up if I tried. Not sure what to do next. I'm reluctant to send her a letter now, for obvious reasons.

You are doing the right thing by giving her ( and more importantly, yourself) space on this.   It is good to hear she is ok physically .  It is impossible to do, but if you can concentrate on that for today - that she is physically safe.  One mini step at a time.  Detachment!

Hi Swimmy:

I'm afraid I haven't been very detached. The mayhem continues in Portland, with a new shooting last night (this time a right-wing person, next time a left-wing person, and so it goes). I'm sure she's out there again, continuing to protest. The demonstrations started out peaceful, which I completely support, but now they're nothing but chaos. I fear for my daughter's life, but she won't even talk to me.

My sister-in-law wrote her an email, but of course there has been no response. My husband's liver tumors are growing again. I'd need the patience of a Zen monk to detach myself from this situation, even though I know that would be the best course of action (or inaction).

I am very sorry Msleah.  My son just had to be  in the Baltimore  Freddie Gray riots back in 2015.  My father called me and said  he saw my son / his grandson  on the TV briefly , walking with the crowd .  Any type of walk, march, protest, he had to be out in the thick of it with his little home made signs. 

I am not sure what all was going through his mind, but I think he felt it was almost his calling  .  He came back invigorated and filled with purpose ( although it never lasted).  Perhaps for the time she is out there, your daughter feels purpose- even a sense of belonging to a movement/ something bigger than her.  Of course, that charged atmosphere could inflame the BPD impulsivity  again.  Here is where you will have to take it one hour at a time, even 5 ( or less) minutes at a time. . .   These words ring hollow right now, but admitting powerlessness is actual strength . Inaction is indeed action, even if it doesn't feel like it.   As much as you can stand to, try to keep the focus on you and your husband, as he is one adult in your life that does accept your help and support.  You are doing the right thing by doing nothing today. 

Hi there MsLeah

I just wanted to reach out to you because my son29 has only recently text raged. I’m to blame for everything and it hurts. You’re a few weeks ahead of me on this latest shift and I feel for you, I really do. It seems sometimes that we have so much dumped on our shoulders, it’s feels too great a burden. Though somehow we get through, one day at a time. You’re not on your own, bpd is bewildering, it twists and turns and catches us off guard.

I hope you take good care of yourself today, that both you and your husband can find something to smile about.

You’re a good mother.

You did your very best.

Nobody can demand more than our best.

Hugs

LP

Maybe acknowledging that you can't detach and being deliberate about some deep breathing/meditation is your best near term course of action.

Best,

FF

Hi Swimmy:

My daughter has always had a strong interest in social justice, but I was quite surprised to note the vehemence of her sudden passion for the BLM cause. I am quite sympathetic to BLM, but not to violence. My daughter has never acted out in a violent way before, or been part of any sort of mob effort. So, although I had an uncanny feeling that something like this might happen, it still came as a surprise.

I imagine these demonstrations make it possible for her to focus on external chaos as a way to avoid her own internal demons. That makes total sense to me. A sense of mission to transcend some of her pain.

Interesting parallel with your son and Freddie Gray. My daughter made a bunch of signs, too. They were very artfully designed. I wish she'd just stuck to making posters.

I did get an email from her a few days ago, reiterating that she wants nothing to do with me. Earlier that week, I lost my cool and posted a status on Facebook about her dad and her arrest. News of the posting got back to her. I regret my action, but her dad had posted on his own page about how proud he was of her destructive behavior (!). His friends complimented him online for raising a great kid. I think that was the last straw. That man worked his butt off for years trying to turn our daughter against me, though my husband and I tried our best to reconcile with him.

I have so much bitterness now. My husband's tumors have grown in the past month, and the doctor took him off chemo. He'll be starting an experimental therapy in a couple of weeks. It's our last hope. Though he wrote my daughter an email about this development, she has not responded. I thought BPD folks were supposed to be sensitive? 

Hi Lollypop:

I'm just getting around to responding to these posts. It's been an intense week and I am exhausted.

Feel free to read my posting above this one (to Swimmy) to get an idea of recent developments.

I'm trying my hardest to think of myself as a good parent. It's hard to believe when my daughter lambasts me for being an abusive one.

A friend of mine recently sent me a video clip of her own daughter, who appeared on a talk show five years ago. Her daughter has BPD and first tried to kill herself when she was eight. She's 40 now and doing somewhat better with DBT therapy.

The best information I took away from the clip was that BPD is innate. People are born with a predisposition to it. Basically, a BPD kid is so sensitive to emotional pain that parents often don't understand. So the parents become exasperated, wondering why their child is dwelling on issues that other kids just get over. The child perceives this lack of understanding as invalidation. It's a short leap from feeling invalidated to feeling abused.

So, when my daughter now accuses me of psychological abuse, my husband, my son and I become bewildered. This serves as further proof of my insensitivity, as far as she is concerned. So, if I say, "What are you talking about? None of us even know", it just makes her feel even more invalidated.

I have to learn to ask more gently, and listen better. It's hard when I'm being hammered with accusations. Right now, however, the silence is even more deafening. I'm not sure if I'll ever be granted the chance to listen.

formflier:

Well, I do lots of yoga. In fact, I teach yoga! Have for about four years now. It helps a bit, or has helped during other stressful situations. Any of my current challenges would be a handful on it own. Bundled together, they're well nigh impossible.

Quite honestly, the pandemic doesn't help. And the extended, record-breaking heat wave (I live in AZ). I'm looking forward to cooler weather, so I can do some hiking. My husband usually comes with me, but I'm not sure if he'll be up for it.

Zumba has been helpful, too. I'm so glad our health clubs have reopened, at least.

msleah

I'm so sorry to hear about the tumor growth.  How long until the experimental therapy gets started?  Have they given you any indication of how long you should wait until determining if the experimental is working.

Seems like the waiting for results is the worst.

Best,

FF

formflier:

Thanks for your compassion. I appreciate it. My husband's experimental therapy won't begin for two more weeks. It seems like a long time to wait, but the doctor wants him to have some time to rest. Chemo takes a lot out of a person. It kills healthy cells as well as unhealthy ones.
 
My daughter knows about this turn for the worse in my husband's illness, but has not reached out to him. I got one snippy letter, accompanied by a link to an article a woman wrote, which claimed that most estranged parents are to blame for the estrangement.

Geez. I thought BPD folks were supposed to be so sensitive?

So...one  letter in how long of a period of time?

Had you sent something that appears to have resulted in her sending the letter?

Best,

FF

formflier:

Here's a handy cut-and-paste of part of my posting to Swimmy, a few days ago. It explains the reason for my daughter's letter:

"I did get an email from her a few days ago, reiterating that she wants nothing to do with me. Earlier that week, I lost my cool and posted a status on Facebook about her dad and her arrest. News of the posting got back to her. I regret my action, but her dad had posted on his own page about how proud he was of her destructive behavior (!). His friends complimented him online for raising a great kid. I think that was the last straw. That man worked his butt off for years trying to turn our daughter against me, though my husband and I tried our best to reconcile with him."

My daughter's dad actually did post on his FB page about being proud of "his" daughter for setting a police station fire and for raising her right. I'd written him an email the previous day, letting him know that I'd found out about the arrest via the news and wondering if he knew about it or could shed some light on the matter. He did not bother to respond. I had to unblock him on FB to get the additional info.

This is a guy who once tried to kill me, and then called the cops and had me arrested. I stayed silent about the abuse for years, even though we have many mutual friends. But my daughter, the social justice warrior, is angry about me outing her abusive dad on FB.

I blocked him again, so I won't be inflamed by his postings. Of course, my daughter has blocked both my husband and me. So everyone is blocked. It's a crazy and horrible scenario.

 

 
If you could go back in time, would you have "outed" him on FB or would you have rather stayed silent?

Best,

FF

Formflier:

You know, I go back and forth on that one. Part of me wishes I'd kept my mouth shut, but part of me really needed to go public with the abuse. I figured my daughter was going to be angry with me either way. I kept silent about it for so long, which wasn't healthy for me, and it certainly didn't win me any brownie points, either.

Interestingly enough, my husband got an email from my daughter today, saying she was sorry she didn't contact him sooner, but wasn't sure what to say. She emphasized that she was deeply sorry about his illness, but was determined not to talk to me for a long while. She wanted to keep in touch with my husband, however, so she could offer support.

Despite the fact that this smacks of classic triangulation, I made it clear to my husband that he should make his own decisions re: future communication, and that I would not try to interfere in any way. I think he'll feel happier re-establishing contact, since the estrangement has hurt him deeply. Also we'll both feel better knowing at least one of us has an open line of communication with her. I worry about my daughter a lot, for obvious reasons. But I'm going to stay out of the picture and see how it goes from here.

"Well, as a person who has seen a variety of counselors in my life,"

Do you think perhaps that's why she says you have "meltdowns"?

 "even if it means continuing to ignore her mother and her stepdad, who has stage 4 cancer and raised her since she was six."

I wouldn't say that to her or she may accuse you of acting like a victim.  Been there done that.

On one of your posts you said she demanded you apologize and you didn't.  On another post you said you didn't get the chance to apologize and make amends.

How do you think someone with BPD could interpret that?  As you lying perhaps?

I'm NOT saying that you lied,  I'm saying that that's how they see things.  They have an idiosyncratic moral code  (probably why some of them become protesters and advocates) and are ready to write people off for breaking it.  I

"The other weird thing is that her recent behavior, and the ultimatum, as well as laying the blame for her BPD at my doorstep, all seem to be fairly recent developments."

Exactly like my daughter.  So I asked her to describe some of the things I did.  She blames me for things like being 15 min late to pick her up or not taking her somewhere I said I'd take her.  She said they caused her deep embarrassment and stress. 

I did apologize.  She stopped talking to me when I said something she thought was a lie.

Hi Goblin Mom:

Sorry to take so long to respond. I'll try to answer your questions in more-or-less chronological order.

No, I've gone to see counselors all on my own, including after my daughter moved out of the house. I haven't had breakdowns first, or been mandated by the court, or anything similar. I think going to counseling is a great thing to do when you're feeling stressed or overwhelmed, or just need more self-understanding.

In our last instant message conversation, she demanded that I apologize for everything, but I didn't apologize on the spot. I was irritated and defensive. She blocked me on social media immediately thereafter, so even though I wanted to apologize to her a couple days later, and talk things over in a more cool-headed manner, I had no way of doing so.

I'm not sure how she might interpret that. She wanted an instant apology, I didn't give it to her, and she wasn't about to give me  second chance. Since then, I have sent her a couple of apologetic emails, but they appear to have fallen on deaf ears (or eyes, or whatever...)

She has communicated via email with my husband, but like I said in another post above, this maneuver smacks of triangulation. She made it clear to him that she would not be corresponding with me. He has responded to her three emails in a minimal way, because he's not really sure how to react. We want her to be in touch, but we don't want to treat me like the 1000 pound gorilla in the proverbial living room.

It makes sense that she is drawn to Antifa, because those folks tend to have a pretty rigid moral code, and so does my daughter (typical of BPD people, it would seem).

I'm sorry to hear about your daughter. It's so hard to be the parent of a person with this disorder, but the BPD person often doesn't realize the profound challenge posed to the parent.

Thanks again for your comments.

if youve been reading up on triangulation, then you know that your husband being in communication can be a wise move, a very wise move, or a destructive move.

the person in the rescuer position tends to be in the position to be in the strongest position to stabilize the conflict.

Once Removed:

We're stumped as to how to proceed, so we've been staying mostly quiet. I did send my daughter a brief email on her birthday about a week and a half ago. My husband sent her an even briefer email. After a few days, she sent me a two sentence email in response--terse, but not angry. Slightly friendly overtones, but nothing to grab on to.

My husband just switched his chemo regimen and is in no real position to take on the role of rescuer here. I don't want him to be physically or emotionally overtaxed. In your opinion, how can he (or we) proceed with wisdom, compassion, and caution?

i think that you are.

i dont mean to minimize the state of things or what youre going through when i say that a birthday exchange, and a two sentence email is preferable to a total cutoff. dont push; for the time being, let this exchange allow some ice to thaw, and to a large extent, let her lead, if she chooses to.


in the winner triangle, the "rescuer" position becomes the "caring" position. what does that mean for you?

it means he is the primary connection, right now, and any exchange can be constructive, neutral, or destructive. it means on some level, if shes communicating with dad, shes communicating with mom, even if, unfortunately, indirectly. its a connection.

it doesnt necessarily mean he should do anything immediate or overt. it could certainly inform a united and thoughtful approach if something comes up, and it may well.

I will double down on Once Removed's comments.  I think you are too.

From time to time I will read the dear abby type of advice column.  A few days ago there was some sort of issue where one party was telling the other they were anxious and couldn't go very fast (I think it  was a job search issue).  The other party was anxious that the job search wasn't going faster and would keep bringing it up and was writing to ask..."how do I get this person to understand they have to go faster"

Anyway...the point of the response was that "the fastest way to shut down an anxious person is to keep pestering them to go faster/do more"

So..to connect this to your story.  Take it as a given that your pwBPD is giving you the "big signal" of go slow/stay away AND ALSO saying they still want a (small) connection.

Do you see that?  Many times pwBPD appear to play both sides of the same issue.  Remember their feelings are all over the place and can change at a rapid pace.

What do you think it will look like to keep up this kind of brief interaction for a while?  How often?  What subjects?  How many sentences?

You obviously want more (and that's ok).  What do you think it would look like if after a period of time where you have kept up with this type of communication, for you to do "a little bit more".

I'm so pleased that contact has been reestablished.

Best,

FF

Once Removed and Form Flier:

Thanks, both of you, for your comments. They are extremely helpful.

My husband is going to write our daughter a brief update tomorrow, detailing the changes in his cancer treatment. Nothing too maudlin, but I know she wants to hear from him. She did initiate contact with him, so I know she cares about his illness.

I haven't communicated with her since her brief email responding to my birthday greeting. I plan to do so later, after she and my husband have chatted a bit.

My husband and I both feel a bit wary and untrusting at this point. We had no idea that she was talking to her bio-dad for months about cutting off contact with me. She was pleasant towards me almost the whole time. I took her out to eat on numerous occasions, gave her money when she was laid off from her job, let her stay in our vacation condo (at her request) and gave her my bike (also at her request) when my husband and I sold the condo and moved to AZ.

I know a lot of this inconsistency stems from her BPD, and that it's awful not to trust my own daughter, but her behavior just seems so duplicitous to me. So I am going to take it very slow. Of course I'd like more contact, but I'm not going to push it. Keeping conversation brief--every few weeks on my part--and somewhat superficial seems like the best way to go.

Did she ask about the cancer?

There is absolutely no way to say what is right or wrong, we are all test pilots here.

My idea/thought would be to reach out with another bland/short email...(were there any attachments last time) and if no attachments last time, maybe send a pic of something neutral.

Neutral:  Like a new plant or a project or squirrels in the back yard.

"Been enjoying watching this plant grow since I pruned it and fertilizing."

"The squirrel family is really packing away the nuts for winter."

See the allure.  It's at your house but not about you...but now there is a picture.

This also gets you to ask  "any new interesting stuff/projects in your life?"

I think I would wait on a cancer update.  Cancer equals fear of abandonment...

Is there anyway to have "good cancer news" or "hopeful"?    If so...I might say

"I'm pleased that I got some hopeful test results back this week...", then see if that "hooks" her into asking.

Stand back and take a look at how I'm approaching this.  Very gently adding more and waiting to see if she "pulls more in".  The idea is to leave her in charge, vice have her think she needs to "fend off" unwanted communication.



Best,

FF

Formflier:

Yes, in all three communications with my husband, my daughter specifically wanted to know how he was doing, health-wise.  When he didn't write back immediately after her first email, she wrote another, expressing concern and asking if he was all right.

One thing about my daughter -- she will rush to your defense if she thinks you're sick, weak, or oppressed in any way. But strong people scare her. In her world, you're either victim or oppressor. I figured that out awhile back. It's one of the reasons why she became so fascinated with Antifa.

Both of my husband's return emails gave a few details about his cancer treatment, etc. So it seems like a relatively "safe" subject (if you can use the word "safe" to describe any cancer-related discussion).

I like your suggestions about how I should actually communicate with her, and plan to utilize some of them. I've only had one, 2-sentence email from her, thanking me for wishing her a happy birthday and joking about being only 75 years from a century old.

I guess that's something...

try to remember that you are playing a "long game" here.

youre each going through very different struggles.

when a son or daughter undergoes therapy of any kind, its a long process. read the PSI board (you dont have to be a person with bpd to grasp the process). it brings up old, deep, resentments and wounds. it forces you to see one or both parents in a different light, when children are kind of predisposed to idealize our parents, and thats...quite a trip. it can be even more volatile for someone with bpd, prone to a certain worldview, and inclined toward black and white thinking...the highs will be higher, the lows lower.

youre playing the "short game" well, but some of the aspects of the "long game" are out of your hands.

Thanks, Once Removed.

I think I'd be more patient with the long game if I were younger (I'm almost 62) and if my husband weren't ill with Stage 4 cancer.

We have no way of knowing how long he'll be here. His tumors have started growing again, and he's back on chemo. He and I would both like to feel that our daughter supports both of us emotionally.

Of course, she doesn't, and there's not much we can do about it. I'm glad she at least communicates with him, but I'm also angry, because I feel like the 1,000 pound gorilla in the room that can't be discussed.

It's so hard being a caregiver and dealing with an estranged daughter who has BPD, but I am in this scenario alone. Also, due to the damn, ongoing pandemic, and other factors like a recent move across the country, I am completely isolated and receive almost zero emotional support from others.

I wish she could understand how painful this is for me, but there is no way of making anyone understand anything. She will have to either come to the realization on her own, or not. Meanwhile, this whole situation is like being in hell.

Hi everyone:

I would love some more advice from you helpful folks, if you have time. Today I received the following email from my estranged daughter, who was diagnosed with BPD a couple of years ago. For those of you who don't remember (because this has been a VERY long thread), she lives by herself in Portland. She has been on her own for four years. Very high-functioning, with some notable exceptions.

My husband and I recently moved to Arizona. He has stage 4 cancer and I am his caretaker. About four months ago, my daughter became infuriated with me and cut off contact. She started communicating with my husband a month or so ago, but not me. I've been mostly waiting it out and hoping she'll come around. Anyway, here is the email (with my husband's name removed).

"I’d like to start up communication again. I’ve thought long and hard about it, and I don’t want to cut ties when R is in as much pain and has as little time as he does now. The drastic change from 3 years to months is horrifying, and I don’t want to put him through more than he has to already go through.

I’m not okay with a lot of things you’ve done, and its effects on me. I feel like you have also not considered ways to respect my boundaries, or how certain actions have deeply hurt me. I could discuss some things with you, but otherwise, I feel like it might cause more harm than good right now. I am still angry."

How can I gently probe her to share specifics about what I have done to upset her so much over the years? Or should I even do so? I feel as though I need to acknowledge her second paragraph and not just gloss over it. I realize that BPD folks tend to react much more strongly to perceived hurts than do most people, but I am honestly stumped as to what she feels I have done to hurt her. So are my husband and son.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I don't want to say the wrong thing and drive her away again. Thanks.

in trying to read the email from your situation, the email definitely prioritizes grievances - it closes with them, and leaves things open ended, rather than a sort of "anyway, thats how i feel, lets move on", its more of a "i could name them, im not sure if i should".


it really depends on the goal(s).

if the goal is to better gain an understanding of your daughters perspective, and whether you agree or disagree, act accordingly going forward, it may be worthwhile to probe more deeply; to signal a willingness to listen, without making it a huge thing or asking her to name them.

if the goal is more defensive, i wouldnt.

either way, really, id see that my daughter is tentatively opening the lines of communication, and id run with it.

even that isnt a very clear cut answer. its not clear whether shes prepared to dive deeper into this (or just wants to be outright about how she feels), or frankly even if its a good idea to give her the opportunity to do so. venting anger can sometimes stoke even more anger, even more complicated feelings.

it seems to me that the "best" response is to welcome her back with open arms, no hint of rejection; prioritize this over resolving the conflict, for now.

whether that involves, and to what extent, saying "if you want to elaborate, im listening", is up for debate.

at the end of the day, you know your daughter best. what do you think?

Yes...double yes!

You could put together a couple drafts and post them here...we could coach you.

My recommendation is welcome back with open arms, make sure she knows the door is open to listening and understanding.

This is a good thing that she has reached out.

Best,

FF

Form Flier and Once Removed:

Thanks so much for responding so speedily. Here is what I have thus far:

"Dear H:
I was quite happy to hear from you yesterday. I would have responded sooner, but the last 24 hours have been hectic.

R has had to revert to chemotherapy, but he’s doing his best to stay on top of it. I have been so impressed by the fortitude he has shown throughout this ordeal. We are still walking almost every day, and last week we went to the Grand Canyon. I’m attaching a photo of him standing at the South Rim.

The weather is finally starting to cool off, after the hottest, driest summer in Arizona state history. Figures we would move here right before that milestone. I guess we just got lucky.

I understand that I have not always listened to you, and I am deeply sorry for that. If there is something –anything—that you want to discuss, I am willing to listen.

Love, Mom"

Let me know what you think, please. I appreciate everyone's feedback more than I can say.

Read it a couple of times as you wrote it.

Then a couple times with these deletions. 

Do they "feel different" to you?

Best,

FF

Hi


I was so happy to hear from you yesterday.

It felt so good to hear from you yesterday.

I’m in the U.K. and “quite” can be taken as a negative...meaning “a little bit” or “acceptable”.  Not sure in the US?  but thought I’d throw this in here as I understand just how important this is.

LP

Form Flier and Lollypop:

Thanks so much! I revised the letter a bit, utilizing some of your suggestions. I also belong to an online reconnection group, one which specializes in giving parents tools to re-establish contact with estranged children. They are all about apologies, and the moderator felt that part of the letter was essential. In fact, she thought I should make the apology a bit stronger and put it at the beginning of the letter instead of at the end. I know that's different from formflier's suggestion, but, after thinking long and hard about it, I decided to go with the reconnection club's suggestion. So I came up with this, and figured I'd better send it before too much time elapses. I emailed it this morning.

Dear H:

I was so happy to hear from you yesterday.

I understand that I have not always listened to you, and I am deeply sorry for that. If there is something –anything—that you want to discuss, I am more than willing to listen.

R has had to revert to chemotherapy, but he’s doing his best to stay on top of it. I have been  impressed by the fortitude he has shown throughout this ordeal. We are still walking almost every day, and last week we went to the Grand Canyon.
I’m attaching a photo of him standing at the South Rim.

The weather is finally starting to cool off, after the hottest, driest summer in Arizona state history. Figures we would move here right before that milestone. I guess we just got lucky.

I hope to hear from you again soon.

Love, Mom

Please don't take any of this as "criticism" of your letter.

At the end of the day we are all test pilots figuring out these BPDish relationships.

BPD is a rather unique thing to deal with an apologies by "nons" are often over done...WAAAY over done.

Especially apologizing for someone else's perception of your own actions.

Usually it's much better to focus on listening or understanding than apologizing (but...each relationship is unique).

So...we'll see how this goes.

Best,

FF

Hello msleah and swimmy55, kells76 here from the family law board. Thanks for letting me read and learn from these threads.


I read both your comments on your kids being drawn to mass movements. Not sure how much free time either of you have, but have you read the book "The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements" by Eric Hofer? It's not a long read, and he's a very clear writer. He gets right to the core of the personality type who is drawn to things like Portland and Baltimore. Basically, he asserts that when one feels that one's life is ruined, spoiled, a wreck, then one wants to lose oneself and be rid of the "bad" life and be immersed into something bigger, where one doesn't have to take personal responsibility for how things go. A great read and very timely. It might also give you some new insights into your children, what motivates them, and how they're thinking.

Msleah, I hope your husband is doing well.

Cheers;

kells76

Formflier:

Yeah, I do see your point. However...my daughter has said several times that I never apologize, and that I never consider how much I have hurt her.

I'm inclined to disagree, at least somewhat. Of course, I do think (all the time) about the harm I might have caused her when she was growing up, however inadvertently. She has no way of knowing this, unless I tell her.

My apologies, at least in recent years, have been infrequent. At best, they've been lukewarm, and at worst, defensive and conditional. So I do feel as though I owe her a heartfelt apology.

It's hard for me to accept that I might have said and/or done things that deeply upset her, but she's not going to tell me what they are unless I show remorse.

It's a bitter pill to swallow, of course...

kells76:

Thanks so much for your input. I am familiar with the Eric Hoffer book, and read it when I was still in high school. That was...well, a while ago. I only remember the principle of the book--which, as you mentioned, is that people are drawn to radical groups to compensate for what they are missing internally. I will seek it out and read it again.

I've been politically active on one level or another for much of my life, so I'm not upset by my daughter's concern for society's welfare. My issue was the way she chose to express it. I know her well enough to understand that she is a follower, not a leader. She, as well as most of the people in that group, was standing on the sidelines, offering solidarity while a few others lit a series of fires at a police station. This is why she was released without further repercussions, and her charges were dropped. The people who set the fires and/or actively resisted arrest had charges pressed against them.

Ironically, the group turned their attention to helping firefighters a couple of weeks later as fires raged through Oregon and the west coast--bringing the crew food, fundraising on their behalf, etc. Now she's involved in creating murals throughout Portland--legal ones, sanctioned by local authorities. It's rather difficult to figure out where she's coming from, but at least she's not getting herself arrested.

My daughter is always a champion for the underdog, which is why she can't relate to me as much. I'm drawn to underdogs, too, but I have a strong personality and don't come across as a victim. In her world, there are only victims and bullies. It's all part of that black and white BPD thinking.

I hope we can find some common ground now that we're communicating again.

Hi msleah


I totally understand this. Our son opened up (he’s a quiet bpd and internalises) and told us that he needed to show his rage (in words) against me and for me (us) to apologise. It was a bitter pill.

We gave what we felt was a heartfelt apology but he kept stuck in the past. We kept focussed on the need to move forwards but I knew when he agreed that he felt pressured to agree. I’ve since reached out to him to say I’m ready for a deeper and more meaningful relationship and he still doesn’t appear to be able to, despite him initially saying that’s what he wanted.

I’m not sorry that we apologised. However, it doesn’t appear to have changed things much for him. We are ready,  but we accept that he’s not. He’s just getting on with his life and I guess, we have to learn that standing alongside him might actually mean very little communication between us. I’m sharing this because I thought you’d be interested. Events might not turn out how we expect or how we want them - there’s no reasoning with bpd.

I thought your letter was extremely good. I’d love to know when/if you get a reply.

Good luck

LP

One of the issues with BPD is "rapidly changing feelings" and or "feelings that are not stable".

Most pwBPD are not able to accept that their own actions have anything to do with this, so they use "feelings equals facts" to figure out that someone else (in this case you) are responsible for the horrible feelings that they feel (that feel 100% real to them and accurate).

Now...if they have and are having at the moment you apologize, a bad feeling for what you are apologizing for, then perhaps the apology can do some good...perhaps.

But what if..what if your pwBPD is sitting around brooding that "Mom does A to me...it's all Mom's fault." and then you reach out and apologize to her for doing B to her?  Does that help or hurt.

Even more confusing...perhaps yesterday she was saying that Mom did B, you thought about it and realize you do it and want to make it right, yet today it's not about B..it's about A.

I'm sure you are aware this tortuous cycle can go on and on.


For now let's wait and see if the responds to this apology. 

From where I sit the most important thing you said in the letter is that you are open to listening.

Best,

FF

Hi there..I'm a newbie, too and learning to navigate so bear with me!

I can hear your pain and torment and can certainly understand your bewilderment. I suffer from BPD as does my 20 year old son...so I have perspective from both sides.

I have done what your daughter has.  It's not that I don't love my family, it's more that I don't like myself when I'm around them.  I know that BPD has genetic, as well as, environmental components. So, while I don't completely pin my diagnosis on family, I see, now, how they are part of the equation. They are unwilling to see their role and that's fine. I'm not "blaming them" -  but instead, setting the record straight.

And I guess, setting the record straight includes letting them know that I didn't wake up one day and just decide to be an unhappy, chaotic, narcissistic manipulator. My symptoms started around age 4. I was labeled, given the scapegoat role within the family, invalidated, minimized and accused of manipulative dramatics...all of which exacerbated my condition even more.

I wasn't diagnosed until I was 49.  Hallelujah! Not only did I learn there were others like me, but, the blame was lifted from my shoulders and I was given a rational explanation as to why my brain works in such a dysfunctional manner. The therapist didn't "blame" my family or suggest I cut them off. But, after a while, I realized I much more comfortable and happy without them.  Also, being with them was such a reminder of previous emotional explosions I had forced them to endure. It was hard for me to come to terms with all the pain and agony I had caused. I am ashamed and embarrassed. I'm in recovery, now, but I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to face them again.

My son blames me for his BPD - and I agree with him.  I did lots of things wrong and I certainly provided the genetic predisposition. Even so, sometimes I want to bow up and remind him of his father's shortcomings and contributions - but I don't.  I know the amount of pain he is in - having suffered from BPD, myself - so I, consciously, lose the defensive attitude because I know it is harmful to him in his current mind set...even if I feel he is wrong.

His perception is my reality. Fair? Not so much. But, for now, I'm willing to take the blame in hopes one day he will be in remission, too.

Good luck and hang in there!

Lollypop:

It's only been a couple of days since I sent the email (well, almost 3) but I have not yet received a reply.

I think I might have floored my daughter by not responding defensively to her email. Deep down, I think she expected -- maybe even wanted -- an argumentative reply. Which is funny, since she is the one who reached out and said she wanted to resume communication in the first place.

Her email is filled with ambivalence -- she wanted to reconnect because she feels so bad about my husband's illness, she's still angry with me, she wants to air specific grievances, but then again, she doesn't want to air them. I don't know whether she is particularly sure about her reasons for those grievances.

Such is the maelstrom that is BPD. No wonder the rest of us have to walk on eggshells around these folks. I can certainly empathize about your son. It seems that many people with BPD are committed to hanging on to their pain, even when given the opportunity to release a bit of it.

Meanwhile, I am working on cultivating an attitude of calm acceptance about whatever she does end up telling me. We shall see how it goes.

Formflier:

Point taken. Communication with a BPD person is certainly a moving target, huh?

I haven't heard back from her yet. As I mentioned in my above post, I suspect she expected and perhaps (subconsciously) wanted me to argue with her. It's like she keeps wanting me to prove her point that I'm an unreasonable person who doesn't listen or care.

Then again, perhaps she's just busy processing. I will wait and see and not reach out again until I hear from her.

Hi Peppery:

Thanks so much for your input. I suspect BPD runs in my family as well. I'd be willing to bet that my mother had it -- we used to think she was just a drama queen -- and I wonder about myself, as well. At (almost) 62, I've calmed down a lot, but my coping skills were directly impacted by the way I was nurtured (or not nurtured, to be more accurate). As a young adult, I had a lot of the classic symptoms and behaviors, and I wasn't an easy person to love.

Supposedly, BPD does mellow out for a lot of people as they age. I hope you've been able to experience that. I sensed some recrimination in your self-assessment, which seems to be very common in the parents of BPD children (I use the word "children" here to denote offspring, not actual kids). I'm not in the greatest position to give advice, but I would encourage you not to beat yourself up about your son's mental illness. It is so easy to focus on what we did wrong as parents, especially when those flaws are so often what our BPD children choose to focus on. You certainly can't help your genetic predisposition.

I am finding this board to be most helpful. I hope you do, as well. Thanks again.

Consider this...perhaps this is a moving target as well.  Perhaps your goal is to be between where your daughter seems to be a "neutral" or zero.

So...she gives you a "bad" or "push" signal of 4 (on a 1-10 scale) and you reflect back and 1 or 2 push or bad signal.

When she loves the world as is giving your "good" or "pull" of 4 (or more), cut it in half and give it back.

Look another way...when her feelings are good..they are really good and that's the "reality" she wants others to show her.  When they are bad...she wants others to feel and reflect that as well.

Moving target it a good description!


Best,

FF

I just want to reach out to you and say please dont blame yourself. What I find very strange is how a disorder like this presents in very similiar behaviours in people with bpd. It shows I think a very strong genetic component. My daughter is in her late 20s and her behaviour sounds very like your daughters. I am not perfect but my daughter grew up in a normal family, there was no abuse. Looking back she was always very sensitive to everything and quick to anger and get irritated. Now that she has read a bit and seen counsellors she has the language to accuse me. She says its all my fault, I am cold and invalidating. She hates her dad and they dont speak so its left to me to try help her. If I mention she needs to get the right kind of help she flies into a rage and says I am the one that needs helo. She is exhausting to talk to because every word I say is analaysed. She threatebs to cut me out of her life. She never apologies but the next day acts as if nothing has happened.

So please take care of yourself and your husband and enjoy your time together. I dont think we caused this bpd nor can we cure it.

Saidbh:

Thanks for sharing your story. There is so much commonality in the behaviors of BPD folks, and the experiences of those who love them.

I can't say that I offered much in the way of normalcy for my daughter, at least during her early years. Her bio-dad and I split up when she was five, and I don't think she ever got over it. He almost died from drinking shortly thereafter. I think she blames me for this, at least subconsciously. I know that her dad (who is sober now, but a classic dry drunk) very consciously blames me for it, so there's that.

My husband (her stepfather) raised her since she was six, and that was a blessing for all of us. He is a kind and responsible man, who freely offered balance to my daughter's life.

She doesn't seem to be angry with her dad (though he's a real piece of work, and has thrown numerous tantrums in response to perceived slights she has supposedly perpetrated against him) or with my husband, only with me. Moms are often held to such a high standard. Of course, this selective anger only increases my feelings of guilt.

I'm working on my emotions with therapy. Also, this group has helped a lot, along with an estranged child forum I belong to online. I have grown so much as a result of these networks.

Thanks again for reaching out. I wish you luck, love, and healing with your own daughter.

Formflier:

Thanks, sounds like a reasonable method. I'm still waiting ever so patiently to hear from her.

It's so weird, because she is the one who reached out to me in the first place.  I think she was expecting me to be defensive and is now completely floored as to how to react. I'm giving her lots of time, which is good because it gives me the chance to pause, reflect, and be more aware of how to react once she does contact me.

this could be.

it could also be that its just not clear what comes next.

it could be that primarily, she just wanted to open the doors, and now thats done, and she feels that its best to tread lightly.

it could be that you took some wind out of her sails. maybe she wanted to let it all hang out, and its hard to do that in response to a disarming note.

it could be that shes writing the mother of all essays to let you have it.

there may be a lot coming, or a sort of anti-climatic slow ice thawing. its hard to say.

regardless, i think you are, and will be in a good position. i think your note was pitch perfect.

hi msleah,
I did not read the entire thread but sort of jumped from page 1 to 3, so I apologize in advance if I am missing some of your key points.  I have a BPD step-daughter, at least that is what my husband and I have been told is likely by a counselor.  A lot of what you speak of resonates with me.  Our daughter also recently "disowned" us and yes, it is my fault (not her biological Mom's or her Dad's fault), it is all my fault.  I agree that "moms" (even step moms) get disproptionately blamed.

Like others have said, please don't take it personally.  I truly think that they go for the strong ones, because they have to take us down to get to their supply (her Dad). 

Like your situation, my step-daughter has a sibling.  We have no idea if they are speaking (the sister stopped talking to us about the same time, but sans drama - we have reached out to her and she is pretending like nothing happened).  We have oscillated between calling her sister the "flying monkey" and feeling guilty because her sister likely has the same anxiety we do.  It is exasperating feeling like you are going to break an egg every step or two!  Oh crap, there I go, I stepped on an egg and now, it's a million broken shells.

How do I fix this?  Well, I can tell you I'm about 7 months in to the estrangement and I don't feel I have to fix this anymore.  Yes, I made contact initially (she threatened to file a complaint for harassment), by sending her articles about therapy.  yes, I cried, yes I went through bargaining, yes depression and guilt were in there (and I didn't even raise this kid her dad and I met when she was 19, she's 25 now and has two kids of her own).  Yes, my husband and I have fought over it, gone to therapy and now we're at the point of moving on with life.

It helps my Mom is also BPD.  I feel this is just a repeat of my childhood.  Like it's come full circle. 

I'm finding the hardest thing to do is find friends I can talk to about it, when I feel like talking about it of course.  Why I'm here.

Please keep sharing and I thank all for their insights and wisdom on this thread.  I will go back and read all the responses now, but wanted to reach out and let you know that you're not alone.

B

OK, I think I'm all caught up.

GoblinMom said:  They have an idiosyncratic moral code ...and are ready to write people off for breaking it.

Boy is this one true!  We call our step-daughter the Moral Police, since she goes to church twice every Sunday to prove what a great Christian she is (rolling my eyes). She also screams at her Dad (and doesn't even speak to her biological Mom) because he was a "horrible parent and it's a wonder she survived childhood!" 

Others have pointed out that your desire to talk to your BPD daughter is temporarily overridden by the desire you have to "not say the wrong thing"  Also, triangulation was brought up.


Here are my thoughts:

Triangulation is a bad thing and I have spent most of my adult life trying to avoid it.  I simply say "I'm not playing this game."   

Our counselor said that chasing a BPD (or their flying monkey sibling/spouse/friend) is like falling into quicksand.  In other words, don't do it.  The harder you try, the more they reject you.

My husband has less desire to talk to his kid than I do.  I think he truly needs a break, and a lot of his anger is actually Guilt.  He feels like he is at fault (at least partially) for her disorder.  A lot of time is spent between him and I reassuring him that he did not create this problem.  He is a good Dad.

What popped into my mind about your situation msleah is this:  are you trying to contact her because you're the Mom and society says you must talk to your daughter...or, do you really wish to speak to her?

Just wondering.  cause I have little desire to speak to my step-daughter who I'm literally afraid of, but I'm not her mom.

Like I said, my husband is not at any point of resuming contact, and I'm ok with it.  She is abusive and manipulative and controlling.  What's the point?

I may change my mind later, but this is where I'm at. 

Something terrifying to me is they mentioned their BPD'd person getting therapy, and it just gave them more ammo because the BPD then knew the "terms" and lingo.  This one actually never occured to me before...oh boy
B

Once Removed:

First of all, thanks for all you do, as administrator of this board. It is one of the most helpful forums I have ever encountered, and has helped me retain at least some of my sanity.

I did hear from my daughter yesterday. As I expected, her email was brief and did not address our issues at all. Her avoidance is somewhat maddening, but I have to meet her where she is right now, rather than the place I want her to be. She sent a photo of herself at a women's march with about four sentences attached, and that was it. She also responded to my husband's recent email with a considerably more friendly tone. In his earlier email, he discussed the progression of his cancer treatment, gently emphasizing how much I help him every day. Needless to say, she didn't address that, either.

Obviously, there's still some triangulation here, but some communication is better than none. Baby steps.

Beatricex:

Thanks for reading and weighing in on this extremely long thread.

My daughter's and my estrangement lasted only four months (though it seemed much longer). She started communicating with my husband (her stepdad) again about a month and a half ago, and finally sent me a brief email two weeks ago, stating that she was still angry but wanted to resume communication for his sake.

Her tone seemed a bit...well, hostile, and still full of triangulation, but I did reach out with an apology, an invitation to talk about her feelings, and a promise that I would listen. She waited about a week and finally sent me a 4-sentence email and photo. She didn't address her emotions at all.

Just because someone suffers from a mental illness doesn't mean they can't be maddeningly manipulative. Sometimes extremely so. I gather from your own comments about your stepdaughter that you most likely know exactly what I mean.

And yes, the idiosyncratic moral code. My daughter is not a Christian, but she has very rigid (though somewhat arbitrary, at least from my perspective) ideas of how people ought to behave. It's all part of that BPD black and white thinking.

Also...yep, the ammo of psychoanalytic terms. I heard a lot of those before my daughter cut off contact. I guess it's a good thing, after all, that she's avoiding arguments with me right now. I am still healing from my own anger and will do whatever is necessary to avoid further disagreements.

Thanks again for your insights.

msleah,
What kinds of things are you doing for yourself?

My husband and I are going fishing tomorrow, it is Halloween and a "kid" day (we have 4 grandchildren amongst our 2 girls), but we've decided to focus on us.  Something we did a lot when we were first dating was go fishing.  I'm very concerned the toll this is taking on our relationship, and am choosing to focus on us instead of the worrying about things I cannot control (and out of control daughter).

I am even past giving people all the sordid details about how the "fight" and "disowning" went down (at least I hope so).  I find that with either my mom or my step-daughter, focusing on the BPD just gives more fuel to the fire.  I need to focus on ME.

:)  I am thinking of you and sending some positive energy your way.  btw, I also live in Arizona.  It is a great time to plant some seeds and watch how they grow over the winter, which is our springtime.  I have salvia, russian sage, hummingbird mint, butterfly bush and black eyed susans growing right now.  Most were started indoors in July and once the seedlings got big enough, I transplanted them in my garden outside.  I find gardening very theraputic to get over all the drama in my life.

thinking of you this weekend ((msleah)  (that was a big virtual hug)

B

beatricex:

Thanks again, and I'm sending hugs back to you. :)

My husband and I do what we can to find enjoyment in our daily lives. Sometimes it's hard, because his energy level varies so much from one day to the next. There are days when he feels (almost) normal, and others when he has a hard time just moving around. Stage 4 cancer is a monster, and it's often difficult to tell how his body will react. Unfortunately, this situation is apt to get harder, not easier.

Add the continuous challenge of covid-19 closures to the mix, and it's not exactly a prescription for excitement. We go out of town every month and try to stay overnight in a different locale each time. This is very important to us, because we used to be such enthusiastic travelers. Early this month, we stayed a couple of nights up near the Great Canyon, and got to do a bit of exploring around the South Rim.

Since my husband and I have to go to Tucson every two weeks for his treatment, we try to have some fun while we're there. We drove around the Saguaro National Park this week and wandered down an easy trail. My husband loves saguaros -- they're very much a spiritual thing with him. We do what we can to stay safe, wear our masks, etc, but my husband doesn't know how much time he has, and he refuses to just huddle indoors. I am with him 100 percent on this.

I hope you had a great time fishing! I'm vegetarian now, but I used to love seafood. A big part of the fun is just being outside. I have fond memories of fishing in Lake Michigan with my dad.

Take care, good luck with your stepdaughter.

thank you msleah!  I need patience, luck, a bit of humility...some other things.  Today, my husband is going to be talking to his other daughter, not the BPD'd one.  He would like to know where she stands in the current situation.  He is also going to reiterate she cannot talk to her sister about us.  This is too much triangulation and is not healthy for our relationship with her.

B

triangulation, maybe.

but maybe also, two different relationships, in two different statuses.


this could be read in about three different ways.

1. trying to push your buttons
2. trying to get your support
3. maybe both...

howd you respond?

I'm trying to reply to a thread about a daughter who has cut off all contact. I think I know what you are going through. My adult daughter has done that as well off and on for several years.  I'm currently banished from her life and she has cut off all communications. I'm going to respect her wishes, as I have done in the past. But, it's so hard to do that.
Sometimes her no contact periods last for months. They are heartbreaking. I have apologized to her dozens of times for specific and general issues when she asked me to do so. I've written her email apologies. I've offered to go into counseling with her and assured her she could choose the counselor and a good one would absolutely support her.
Nothing has helped.  It took me a long time to understand that nothing I said or did would help her.  It would never be good enough.
Now I'm struggling with concern for her and wondering if I should reach out to her, just so she knows I care.

Once Removed:

Sorry to take so long to respond! The election and general craziness of these times have caused delays in much of what I've been trying to do.

Good point about the fact that my husband isn't simply an extension of me, so my daughter has separate relationships with the two of us. This is easy for me to forget. I still feel a bit manipulated, but I'm practicing the art of letting go, with some success.

I sent her a couple of very brief, breezy notes, including a photo of some Halloween decorations. It seems to be best to keep things light for the time being. She responded with another short, noncommittal note. Part of me wants to tentatively reach out to her further, but I'm not really sure how. It's a bit like offering food to a feral cat who doesn't really trust me but still wants to eat.

Quite an image, I know...

Hurt Brooklyn:

Thanks so much for reaching out to me. Again, sorry to take a while to respond. Everything has been so hectic lately.

I was saddened to hear about your experience with your own daughter. It's so hurtful when someone you love decides to cut off all contact. My understanding of BPD is that it is innate and not caused by the parents. Parents can exacerbate the condition, but BPD does have a biological component.

In the mind of a BPD person, everyone is either all good or all bad. This phenomenon is known as "splitting", and it is beyond frustrating for people who love the BPD sufferer. Often, one or more of the parents ends up being demonized as a result. Also, the person with BPD tends to react extremely strongly to perceived hurts that other people would tend to blow off more easily.

A BPD person can be hell on wheels in romantic relationships, as well. My daughter has always been fairly private, but I gather that her relationships have been quite stormy. She is usually not friends with her exes and tends to cut off all contact with them.

Those months-long no-contact periods can be brutal. My daughter and I were out of contact for four months until she finally sent me an email to re-establish communication. She told me she was still angry, but she won't elaborate further. I feel as though her decision to reach out was prompted by pity for my husband, who has stage 4 cancer and has been very hurt by her rejection of me. Prior to her email, she had been communicating with him, but not with me.

My advice would be to reach out periodically with pleasant little notes -- nothing too heavy. If she wants to write back and say more, she will. As Tom Petty wrote, waiting is the hardest part.

I certainly understand and can relate to the feeling of never being good enough for my daughter. It's a terrible emotion, but when it comes up, I try to sit with it until it subsides (somewhat). I reassure myself that I did the best I could. I'm sure you did, as well.

Thanks, Msleah:  I much appreciate your response. I hope your husband is comfortable and can't imagine the difficulty you are going through now.  It is so kind of you to respond to me. I'm torn between reaching out to my daughter and respecting her no contact wishes. The longest she has gone is 4 months. We're on month 3 now. I appreciate your info about BPD and telling me her thoughts and actions are not all of my fault. The false memories and the total negation of the many many wonderful times we had as she grew up are the worst for me to bear. I will take you advice and if I don't hear from her in the next few weeks, I'll probably text her or instant message her. Thank you.