BPDFamily.com

*Mod note: this thread was split from this discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345962.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345962.0)


So... The saga continues. Our son did leave for college this week, and it was an exciting yet emotional time for us, just as it is for everyone. He did find it within himself to reach out a little bit to her when he was leaving, in his own understated way, but I think it was helpful for them to even have the possibility of a future relationship. I don't think she even saw him in the couple days leading up to his departure.

On the divorce front, she linked the filing to my email account (the family account), which I'm not sure she even knows how to access. I initially saw the email from the court acknowledging the filing. I soon got a follow-up email stating that the filing is not complete and required the correction of several errors. Then 5 days later I got an email stating that the filing has been moved to the "abandoned" status because the corrections were never made. Technically, I think she will now have to re-file.

She is as adamant as ever about wanting a divorce and wanting it as quickly as possible. She continues to say that she is accepting her BPD and "will be" going to counseling, but she still hasn't made that first appointment. She now says she will call for an appointment on Monday. Somehow I have already arranged for and completed two sessions with a therapist, yet she hasn't even scheduled her first.

She texted me last night, and called this morning, saying that she emailed me a waiver that I can sign stating that I am accepting an electronic or personal acceptance of receiving the divorce filing in order to avoid getting served by law enforcement. I don't think she realizes that her filing has now been abandoned and she likely has to start over. She started getting very agitated with me insisting that I sign the form immediately and return it to her and basically threatened to involve attorneys if I did not. I calmly explained that I had not even seen the form yet and would need to look it over. She started getting very frantic and started saying that the marriage has been broken and has been broken for a very long time and she needed me to help her to figure out how to go about divorcing me (yes, you have that right), because she didn't know what to do, and if I didn't help her, she will have to get an attorney and it will be an ugly fight. She was starting to get very agitated at this point. The old me would have really escalated things at this point and said something like "You are completely abandoning me and your family out of nowhere, and now you want me to help you do this? Are you out of your mind?" I probably would have included expletives, raised my voice, and started down the laundry list of her awful behaviors, now and in the past.
Instead, I paused, thought about some of the things I have read on here, and said "If you feel that this marriage is completely broken, then I understand why you are so upset and angry. I don't feel that way, but I understand if you do." That actually did drop the temperature immediately. It didn't change the course of this thing, but it certainly de-escalated things.

I later followed up with a long text message reiterating these things. I was extremely diplomatic, I praised her on planning to seek counseling for BPD. I acknowledged all the stresses that we have recently faced, while not directly saying that these are causing this sudden need for a break-up. I reiterated that I thought while not perfect, our marriage seemed to be heading in the right direction and that I loved her. I explained that marriage when a minor is involved is not super quick, and there will be a process required that will take time. I assured her I did not want her to get hurt in this process.

She replied with a very diplomatic response, though adamant as ever about the marriage being over and how "broken" it had been for a long time, stating how emotionally distant we were from each other. It was certainly something that on its surface seemed to be coming from someone who is very emotionally healthy and is simply following her heart and trying to capture something out of life or love that she has never gotten in our marriage.

While there certainly is some truth to her interpretation of our relationship at times, and I would maintain that it is largely due to her crazy behavior and past infidelities, the truth is that she has almost always had a level of angst and envy and discontent in all aspects of her life. The grass has always been greener. Someone else's husband bought something nicer for his wife, someone else had a nicer house, someone else as more affectionate. She even did this comparison stuff with my son. Some other boy was a better son, or acted better in some way. Even when on some great family vacation somewhere, she often would need to be planning the next one, even during the vacation. This inner discontent has burned forever. I truly believe this will haunt her in all aspects of her life unless and until she seriously starts a long term commitment to healing and self-improvement.

So, for me, for now, I just have to see how this plays out. If she feels the same way as she does today for the next few months, we will undoubtedly be divorced. If she changes her mind, I will need some reassurance about a commitment to ongoing counseling. We shall see.

Hi DS  :hi:

I have to congratulate you on your self-restraint and emotional maturity in your dealings with your wife.  You are certainly not adding fuel to the fire.

I remember getting to this resigned place myself during my divorce and while it cooled things down - it wasn't successful in slowing down my exBPDh's level of agitation and almost frantic, manic drive to complete the divorce.  To this day, I think he was actively psychotic throughout the whole ordeal and really wasn't able to make a rational decision about what to wear/eat let alone make the rash decision to tear a relationship of almost three decades apart in the blink of an eye.  The manic and frantic grasping is obviously a feature of the disorder and I'm curious about why our BPD partners are/were so frantic and desperate?  Don't really understand this.

Nonetheless - while you are managing the day-to-day well, the whole process is absolutely soul-destroying.  Self-care and therapy for me was paramount.

Hang in there,
Warmly,
B

Thank you B. Again, helpful to hear others have gone through the same. "Soul-destroying" is a pretty good description. Right now, I'm just having to devote myself to my 16 year old daughter who has just basically lost her best friend and her mother (emotionally, though not physically). Trying to figure out who in the wake of this to feel most sorry for. And the nagging dread of what comes next.

It seems she wants you to rescue her by helping her get a divorce while at the same time pushing you away.

I think you are correct that the inner discontent will continue, because she can't understand that the issue comes from within her. She is seeking all sorts of external resources to fix her inner turmoil and that does not ever work.

There's a saying, "wherever you go, there you are." She can keep changing jobs, residences, hobbies, material possessions, and relationships, but she will still be left with her inner discontent. This is also a characteristic of someone with an unstable sense of self. She doesn't know what will allow her to be happy because she doesn't know who she is.

Did you tell her about the email that says the divorce filing has been moved to abandoned status?

She seems to have some magical thinking about the divorce process and is likely overwhelmed by it. It seems she is thinking impulsively and just wants it over with, and she wants to enlist your help to make that happen for her (rescuer).

Can I ask why you told her you thought the marriage was headed in the right direction? What signs do you see that prompted that statement?

IAR, you seem to really have an incredible insight into this. I think your comments are once again spot on. I wish I had this much insight, especially years ago.

I did not tell her about the problems with her filing. My last message to her on the subject was that I would review the waiver over the weekend, sign it, and send it back to her on Monday (today). I was planning on adding a statement to the waiver that said something like "when I receive a filing electronically, I will agree to accept it, thus avoiding a serving of the divorce by law enforcement." If she then presses me on why I worded it that way, I guess I will say something about the fact that it does not appear to be fully filed, but I really don't think it is my job, nor in my interest to walk her through what she did wrong and how she needs to fix it.

Though she has texted me several times today, she has not asked about it at all, so I am not volunteering information. She actually started back on the old obsessive fear about my son. He is now up at college and she tried calling him and he didn't answer. I got the usual rapid fire text messages like "do you think he is okay?" "Do you think something happened to him?" "Why isn't he answering?" Though I wasn't with her, I envisioned the usual old panic and paranoia creeping in. Turns out, he was in the shower.

It feels like in her head she is stuck in this escapist fantasy world, with these sudden recurrences of the old fears that she sought to escape from.

As far as why I thought the marriage was heading in the right direction, for one, we had five years of no more infidelity, no hiding of the phone, no secretive inappropriate relationships. It had been about 5 years or close to 5 years since there had been any rage incidents bad enough for me to escape the house, we were doing lots of little and big trips, we were having fun date nights, we had a very romantic 20 year anniversary vacation booked for this year, she even planned a trip for us to go to Vegas this summer (which is a destination she knows I liked), so it wasn't a one way thing.

The part that didn't get better was her obsessive fears and thoughts about our son. So while that saddened and frustrated me greatly, it wasn't necessarily reflective of our relationship.

She still appears hell bent on this direction (I think). She dropped her married name (my last name) from her Facebook account. I just have no idea what will happen from one day to the next. I do feel however that even if she does somehow reverse course on this, I will need some sort of reassurance that she is seeking serious and ongoing counseling. That is seeming less and less likely.

It's hard to see things when you're in the middle of them. Hindsight is usually better. I am nearly three years out of my r/s with my ubpdh, which was incredibly abusive in addition to being a r/s with a mentally ill person. I've learned a lot since then and have been able to identify certain patterns and behaviors when I see them.

Good job letting her fix the filing problems on her own.

I think you are correct that she is stuck in this fantasy world, and maybe there are anxieties over your son leaving now that it has actually happened. She was probably trying to avoid the big feelings surrounding his leaving and was overwhelmed and unable to cope with it. Now that it is happened, the old obsessive fears are still there and are resurfacing.

Some of her behavior seems to be almost manic to me. Has she ever been evaluated for bipolar? I'm assuming she probably hasn't, but sometimes BPD and bipolar occur together. This all just seems like a sudden "episode" that has happened, and I don't know that BPD alone could explain it (though I'm not a professional).

My ex was diagnosed with several things but I don't know that any of them were spot on. He did have a habit of self-sabotaging right when it seemed like things were finally improving or when we were very close to reaching a huge goal. I wonder if that may be what has happened here- your marriage was improving, things had calmed down, a milestone was about to be reached with sending a child off to college- and then the "episode".

So, are your thoughts that even if she decides not to continue with the divorce and suddenly wants to move back in, you would not be comfortable with that without evidence that she is seeking therapy?

Oh, IAR, I just noticed you also asked why I told her that I thought the marriage had been getting better. I did so primarily because it is the truth about how I feel, and it also seems the most obvious contradiction to what she is stating she is feeling. If I thought things had been getting worse, I would have said something like "yes, I know we have been having our problems lately, but I think they can get better." I really wanted her to know that I did not share her opinion that the marriage was irreparably broken. In reflection, I also realize that I have always been the glass is half full guy to her glass is half empty take on things.

Update: As I was writing this, she did call and ask me about sending her that signed waiver. I told her I got busy today, but will sign and send it to her first thing in the morning, and I will. She then asked me what she needs to do next. I told her that I don't really know and that she probably needs to call the courthouse and find out. She is adamant that not only does she want this divorce, but as quickly as humanly possible, even saying how she "doesn't want anything from me." She clearly thinks this divorce will somehow unlock her happiness.

The whole thing is surreal. After a 20 year marriage that generally had been pretty good over the last few years, to suddenly and abruptly move out, demand an immediate divorce, essentially abandon her family, her pets, everything, all without even a consideration of marriage counseling is mind boggling. Her mother, who I think I mentioned is very close to me is completely beside herself, mortified, embarrassed, and terrified for her.

I'm sure there is some sort of push/pull psychology at play here for her to be asking me to help her figure out this divorce, and I'm not sure of the best way to respond. So far, I'm staying completely calm, I'm not begging or pleading her to reconsider, I'm matter of factly stating that I don't feel the same way as her, I would prefer to try marriage counseling, and I don't want a divorce but these are her decisions.

Any thoughts or insights would be much appreciated.

Hi IAR, quick question first, where do I find the list of all the acronyms? I can guess on some of them, but others I can't figure out. Like I'm not sure what r/s is for instance, and I'm guessing that the u before BPD is undiagnosed?

But to answer your questions, no she has not been diagnosed previously as bipolar, but yes this does seem very "manic" in nature. It seems like many of these conditions and diagnoses do not fit cleanly into perfect little boxes. They seem to bleed into each other. That's why we seem to be expecting this crash. One reason for me to not fast-walk this divorce is that if this crash does occur, I'm trying to mitigate how much damage she causes before it happens. This manic phase is very different from what I've experienced for 20 years. The impulsiveness and the destructiveness are similar, but there is very little rage or aggression directed at me, at least so far.

And yes, to the final question, if she suddenly dropped the divorce and wanted to move back in, I absolutely would not pursue life as normal, or marriage as normal unless I saw evidence that there was some fundamental change and commitment to treatment. The damage has been so great over these last couple weeks, there is no way I can just go back to how it was, not without serious commitment from her to treatment.

R/S means "relationship". Here is a list for further reference:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=26601.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=26601.0)

I think you are wise to be cautious about moving forward without treatment of some sort. That may or may not happen. Sometimes, seriously mentally ill people require a crisis of some sort to acquire an intervention that proves helpful in terms of treatment (much like an alcoholic or addict who hits rock bottom and ends up hospitalized, jailed, or in rehab).

I really feel for you, DS2020, but I think at this point the best thing you can do is focus on yourself and your kids. Get therapy for yourself and your daughter; your son, of course, will have to make his own choice about that since he is an adult. As will your wife, for that matter.

It is hard to sit on pins and needles waiting for the "crash", so to speak. Try to engage in self care.

I understand what you mean about the marriage. To be honest, she probably does not see it the same way. It's the black/white cognitive distortion again- she may be abandoning the marriage before you can, if that makes sense. She may feel overwhelmed by the work it would take to repair it, and so it's easier to believe she can find happiness in a fresh start.

It's not logical, rational, or mature thinking by any means, but that is because her thoughts are distorted.

Have you seen this article here?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286209 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=286209)

Hi DS2020,

I’m so sorry that you’re going through this. I read the entire thread and I want to say that this has to be really though for you and your family to go through.

I want to echo your T ( list of acronyms here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=26601.0 ) and the others to take really good care of yourself right now. Work out ( it releases hormones that will make you feel better and it helps with stress ) eat well, sleep, continue talking to your T, to the group here, talk to people that you’re really close to, incest some time in hobbies.

Some experts say that BPD is a shame based disorder and as you already know feelings are quick silver to a pwBPD. I agree with I Am Redeemed she’s looking to be rescue in regards to her feelings.

Think of it this way let’s say that you were divorced tomorrow to her it would assuage her feelings of shame and guilt. She would feel like her feelings align with her new reality now because she’s divorced and she’s outside of her current role with her family and married life she can pursue her desires without negatively impacting her feelings / ego.

 It sounds like you’re doing the right things if you press on the issue about the other person that is going trigger shame and then that will trigger maladaptive copiing mechanisms; misdirected anger, disassociation, blame shifting.

She’s really centered on herself at the moment and as you stare she’s being impulsive about her decision and not seeing the far reaching consequences of her actions and the collateral fall out as well. That being said I she said she’d still want to know what’s going on in your life I think that she’s trying to leave the door open with you.  

Quote author=D2020]she is locked up in her bedroom having giggly teenager type discussions with her "boyfriend" for hours on end. It's disturbing, disgusting, and terribly sad. I feel like opening up the door and screaming at her, but we all know how that ends.[/quote]

I live in a 1Ksf home with thin walls and no insulation. I heard exactly that after I (not her) put our kids, then 1 and 3, to bed and said our prayers. It took another 4 months to get her out as she lived a double life, phoning it in like a "teen mom." After she moved out, the kids didn't even want to go with her.  Our daughter didn't even bond with her as much until she was 3 and realized that mommy was a girl like her.

It's maybe tougher with teenagers, but IAR is right.  Don't alienate, but don't defend such as "your mom loves you though!" They need to feel what they feel.  Validate by listening and doing what you are doing such as seeking counseling.

We here are about preserving families. Sometimes that means in desperate households, and the communication tools still hold true and work, and I also congratulate you upon being mindful about your reactions which are helpful as opposed to being impulsive, even if they might feel good in the moment (like for a person with BPD). It's very tough, I know.

Mutt is right about shame. I was, and still am, careful not to shame her.

PwBPD feel at their core that they are worthless and unworthy of love. As a co-parent, together or apart, it's hard to walk that validating line not to shame, yet also protecting you and your children.

IAR, Mutt, Turkish: Thank you all for continuing to support. Mutt, I appreciate you reading the whole thread, it's a lot. Yes, this is incredibly draining, but reading the comments and confirmations helps tremendously. Part of me keeps waiting for the magic pill advice, like if you just said this... or you just did that... she would suddenly recognize all these issues, immediately seek treatment, and come back into the marriage a better and healthier person. I know that is a long shot at best, and she appears to keep taking steps on a daily basis to make it an even longer shot.


These statements, Mutt, seem to be exactly right. I think the shame is something she feels at some level, and thinks that if she can change her reality, the shame will go away. She has acknowledged that she has destroyed this marriage.

Today she had a discussion with her mother. She talked about how her new boyfriend/love interest has purchased 5 books on BPD and is reading them, and has even said to her that he thinks that her escaping into his arms may be a symptom of BPD. He also told her that in the few weeks he has known her, he has never been so exhausted in his life. He also apparently says that he likes her so much, he thinks he can deal with it. She apparently seems to accept this label and readily shared the information with her mother, but to no one's surprise, as of today she still has not even made the call to set up the first appointment. It is one thing to accept a label (though we had never even really gotten quite that far in the past, at least not in any serious way). It is another thing entirely to sit down with a therapist and come clean and bare your soul. That has been something that she has avoided with a passion forever. She seems to have some perspective in that instead of telling her mother that he is the Prince Charming and she will be with him forever, she states that it is uncertain, and she may just need to be alone. Of course I believe she will never be alone for any extended period. It is just not who she is. And I know this sounds harsh, but although she has had a steady job up until now, she struggles mightily with even basic life skills.

I did text her this morning and told her that I had filled out the waiver, and I am ready to send it wherever she wants. She replied that she is driving but will give me her new email address later, and then added that she is not sure what to do with it though. Again, asking me to help her to file for divorce from me. It's crazy. That was about 4 hours ago. Nothing since then.

Although she has never exhibited self harm, I am quite concerned if or when this crash occurs. I foresee a break-up, which she will probably cause by sabotaging the relationship. And that will be followed by some sort of collapse and dark realization that she has destroyed everything. It is causing an awful sense of dread. She is still acting as if she's never been happier, but it just feels like a ticking time bomb.

She may be telling her mother what she thinks she wants to hear. "I may just need to be alone right now" sounds like the advice she thinks she would get, being freshly separated, not yet in the process of divorce. "I'm going to go to therapy" is another statement that sounds like what she thinks people want to hear and would advise her to do.

Saying these things and actually doing them are two different things. If she really thought that therapy was the key to improving her life, she would be actively pursuing that as hard as she is actively pursuing moving out and creating the freedom to engage in a new relationship.

It reminds me of the behavior of an alcoholic/addict who knows all the "recovery language" and can talk a good game. They can say what sounds good to family members, friends, their AA/NA sponsors, and even therapists. Backing it up with sound action is different. I've often heard truly recovered alcoholics/addicts say that in order to recover, they had to pursue their recovery as hard as they pursued the next drink or drug. I think that principle holds true here, as well.

I suppose you have realized there is no magic bullet to these relationships. Personality disorders are disorders that have rigid patterns of thinking and deeply ingrained patterns of behavior. People with personality disorders often have trouble in relationships across the board and that includes therapists. Additionally, the shame of needing treatment in the first place can cause many to avoid it like the plague. "There's nothing wrong with me" is a mantra repeated by many who believe that needing therapy makes them irrevocably flawed and undesirable, which is intolerable.

Hi DS  :hi:

It's amazing how similar our stories are when it comes to our BPD partners.  Your wife is like the female equivalent of my exBPDh. 

I would caution you to try to foresee the future for your wife though.  While it may seem that she is likely to crash, she actually may not.  I foresaw my ex crashing hard too (he was so psychotic that I thought he would be absolutely pulled off a plane during two flights that he took during his mental break - nope).  My experience is that my exBPD has very wily survival skills despite his astonishing emotional instability.  For the last two and a half years, my therapist and myself have been preparing for him to have another mental break and it hasn't happened (for our teen's sake I'm glad to be honest).  As sick as your partner may be, do not underestimate their ability to fend for themselves when necessary (while leaving everyone around them down, of course, especially their children).   

Warmly,
B

Well, sorry for so many updates, but the roller coaster that life with a BPD is like means lots of updates. She called me early evening and wanted to discuss the divorce. She still had that chipper demeanor, clearly masking reality. I very calmly stated that I had been working through scenarios that I thought were fair and started walking through what I thought were the reasonable ways to distribute assets and responsibilities. I once again told her that I wanted things to be fair for her as I knew she wanted to do the same for me. She has bent over backwards to try to accommodate me and insist that she does not want to hurt me. As previously mentioned, I think this is to try to keep her from feeling more shame than she already does. The call was very amicable, and it was clear that she felt I had moved on from any sort of reconciliation and was strictly trying to make the divorce process as easy as possible.

Then... 2 hours later, she calls me back and says "I just want you to know that I know I am very sick. I know that I am severely mentally ill and have been for many years. I know that you do not deserve me, and I do not deserve anyone's sadness. You are a wonderful person, and you do not deserve the pain I have put you and the rest of the family through." She went on to reiterate that basic message in a number of different ways. She wasn't crying, and didn't sound emotional, but the happy go lucky veneer was gone. I stayed pretty quiet and let her say whatever she wanted. She apparently had been speaking to a cousin of hers and the cousin revealed her BPD and how she had done almost the same thing. Walked away from a loving husband, destroyed her life, etc. I complimented her on her acceptance of her condition. I told her it was a very big step, but that it was just that, a first step. I told her that people with BPD can see significant improvement with a major commitment to years of therapy with a properly skilled therapist, and with a willingness to do the hard work. She said once again how she was going to schedule therapy. I told her in the nicest possible way that planning to go to therapy, and actually going are two very different things. When she mentioned that she had tried therapy before, I told her that going to a therapist and complaining about your marriage is a very different thing than going to a therapist that specializes in BPD and baring your soul, and committing yourself to it. It ended amicably. She stated that she knows she cannot be a good partner for anyone. Her BPD prevents that. She did sound very sincere in her thoughts.

So, is this the beginning of a breakdown? Perhaps. Not sure what to expect next. Not sure if she will change course or not. I know for myself, even if she wants to reconcile, I cannot even consider it unless I truly saw a full commitment to long term serious counseling. Not just the promise of it, but actually doing it. We will see what tomorrow brings.

The mother of my children said something similar, "I know I'm sick..." that was when I got mad when I was making us dinner and her beau kept texting. We ate separately after that.  The "sick" referred to something other than Depression and Anxiety, for both of which she is clinically diagnosed. Nothing I did could fix any of that.

The therapist she abandoned me to, no fan of hers, reminded me that "there's nothing wrong with being kind." I'm glad you're already there because it took me a while. In sharing children this is especially important.

Turkish, believe me, it has taken me a long while to get to being kind, and while I think some of that is just learning and age and maturity, I also think that it easier for me in this particular episode because she is not verbally assaulting me. I'm not certain I could be so kind if this sudden abandonment was accompanied with a verbal assault.

It seems the breakdown may be beginning. She called, told me she had resigned her employment (that was an expected thing) and was letting me know. I had already told her that I would pick up her health insurance and I started to explain to her the steps that needed to be followed in order to execute that. She suddenly broke down crying. She generally is not much of a crier. She just started bawling and apologizing over and over, begging me to forgive her some day. Repeating how awful she is and how she has ruined my life and prevented me from having a happy life and a happy marriage. She said she could not understand how I was being so nice to her after all the horrible things she has done to me. I didn't know what to say. I felt terribly sorry for her. I could hear the shame and guilt and self-loathing. It was awful. I tried to stay calm. I didn't try to minimize or say she hadn't done hurtful things, but I didn't pile on either. I acknowledged that yes she had done some awful things, but that I did not look at our marriage with regret. I told her that this disease is the explanation for these things and that if she is serious about getting the help she needs, and actually follows through, she will be in a better place. I wasn't sure if it was the right time and place, but I did say that if she does follow through and get the help she needs, I would welcome her back. That triggered a rush of more crying and sobbing and insistence that no, she needs to be alone, she is not worthy of anyone's love, and that I deserve someone that can make me happy. She is currently at her mother's house at the moment, so I have some confidence that she can be watched, at least at the moment, for any breakdown or self-harm. I did say that she had been doing so much better these last 5 years, and I know why this crisis suddenly happened. She seemed to accept the explanation, but she is currently filled with such guilt and shame I don't think it mattered much. This is just very, very sad and I think it will get worse before it gets better.

You're right that it's different than talk therapy. I've done some CBT to help for anxiety and depression it's changing your thoughts and your lifestyle. DBT was designed by Marsha M. Linehan for borderlines also focuses on that but also helps with regulating your emotions and helps with acceptance of pain. I think from what you're sharing here and this just my opinion - I think that she's probably functioning at a lower level than she normally would be because of this current crisis. It's probably going to be more difficult for her to function at a higher level, I'd keep that in mind it sounds to me when she says that she wants to be alone she's not functioning.

I don't think that she's ready for therapy. You have to be in a space in your life where you are ready to receive it and it sounds like she's not other there yet. I would keep talking to your T like you're doing and keep talking here and do a lot of self care because it's really important during these tumultuous periods in our lives. It's going to help you and the kids if dad is physically, emotionally and mentally in a better space. I know that you're going through a really tough time and this is easier said then done but even if it's just a little bit it's better than nothing when it comes to taking care of yourself.

It has to be really hard to watch this happen and not being able to take charge and have some control over the outcome. I think that you do on your side with how you approach it which you have been doing well but you're seeing the bigger picture and can see the pitfalls while your wife is having tunnel vision right now and not realizing how her choices not only affects her but there's collateral damage as well.

How you can control this is not give into her whims - like someone else stated in the other thread she is an adult and can make her own choices and can figure out how to file if that's what she chooses to do. I wouldn't get caught up in her world right now again that's easier said than done but focus on taking care of you and the kids first and foremost. It sounds like she's got some feelings that she doesn't know how to deal with and even regular counselling could have some help for her and not necessarily marriage counselling if she's not willing to work on that right now but I think that she could possibly be doing the best that she can with not having the same capacity as you can ( she could function better after doing DBT ) and she's probably functioning at a much lower level than her best days.

My point is maybe she's not necessarily wanting to work on things right now when she says that she wants to be by herself. I think that she could be testing you to see if you want the divorce by asking you to help her file with it because she really wanted to get this done she would find the determination to do it. I think that she wants to know if you want to leave her. That said her request of wanting to be alone is probably a reflection on her current condition - I'm having a really hard time dealing with everything right now.

Thank you as always Mutt. I think I did not state it exactly right. She is stating to me that she feels like she will end up alone and that she is not capable of being a loving partner. I think there is probably a lot of truth to that and I think when she expressed that to me, she was being 100% genuine in her feelings, but it was only when she allowed herself to feel and deal with her emotions that she expressed that and the other feelings of worthlessness that she feels. Interestingly, she pulled herself together quickly, went inside her mother's house and began talking about her new "boyfriend", her plans, and even went on to take some steps to set up counseling. I think she quickly rebuilt that wall and recreated this new escape fantasy world to block out the overwhelming guilt, shame, and despair. I continue to be skeptical that she is ready to pursue "real" counseling, as you said. You are also right about how this crisis has greatly diminished her functioning. In the first week, she has lost her keys, then her watch, then her wallet. She still hasn't figured out how to file for divorce. She could not even manage to figure out how to go into her online bank account to delete payees, since I agreed to pick up the kids' car payments.

She pushes me for as quick a divorce as possible, and as soon as I cooperate and start talking about agreements in a calm and rational way, it forces her to think about the reality of it all and she breaks down.

I do speak with T tomorrow as well as D's T, so I hope to gain additional insight and support.

It seems this is an indication that she wants the benefits without the responsibility.

Part of her seeking a divorce may be related to her feelings that she has ruined the "old life" and there is no going back. As I said before, it may be too overwhelming for her to consider repairing damage done, so she moves on to a "clean slate" with far less baggage to the relationship.

I think she has an indication that something is wrong, but she still may use counseling as another emotional support for herself instead of a place to confront and challenge faulty thinking patterns and behaviors.

I think that sometimes when pwbpd start talking about how they have ruined relationships, caused damage, and make statements such as "how can you still be kind to me/love me/etc. it is actually a deflection to being held accountable. It's a posture of "yes, I'm so horrible" so that the other person (who they know is not likely to kick them when they are down) will feel sorry for them and even go into problem solving mode for them (well, if you just did x, y, and z, things could get better, it's not your fault, you have a disorder, poor thing, I'm here for you, and so on...)

I don't think it is consciously manipulative. I think it is another maladaptive way of getting needs met and/or avoiding blame and repurcussions.

IAR, are you sure you don't know my wife? Once again, I think your insight is spot on. To her, in her dysfunctional thinking, it is easier to start with a clean slate, than to have to survey the wreckage. Her mother made a good analogy. It is like a 16 year old that runs away from home. The runaway is escaping things that she doesn't want to deal with. The first few days are fun and liberating. Maybe you've found a friend's house that you can stay at. None of the old rules apply. You are having fun. Meanwhile your family is in deep distress, afraid for your life, not sleeping, praying for help. Eventually the cold reality of what you've done hits you. Your friend can no longer let you stay with her. You can't bare the thought of returning home. You are filled with shame and guilt over what you've done and the stress you've caused. What to do?

I feel this is where she will be soon. Spoke with T today and she reiterated that I seem to be doing everything right. She too expects a breakdown at some point based on my description and MIL's description. Wife has now found a counselor and has presumable scheduled first appointment. He does do DBT, so I'm cautiously optimistic that she will at least attend the session. We will see.

Well, some reason for hope. My wife who is still living apart in her own apartment had her first therapy session today. She called me afterwards. She told me in a very sincere and emotional way that the therapy session was amazing. She fully embraced her BPD. She told the counselor that her drug of choice is seeking attention from men in inappropriate ways, particularly in times of stress. She told me that she is now fighting with the guy who she thought she was in love with and said she was doing the very predictable sabotaging that I have been all too familiar with. She said the T gave her assignments and she is committed to doing them and will be seeing him every Saturday and more often if necessary. She said she realizes she needs to be alone at least for now to heal herself. She acknowledged again all the hurtful things she had done to me. It certainly was not anything I had ever heard in the 22 years I have known her. I was very supportive and tried to encourage her. I said that my insurance would be able to cover her sessions after her free 5 sessions are completed. Of course that assumes she stops pursuing the divorce she has been trying to file. She admitted that while she knows she needs to be alone for now to heal herself and improve her self love, she also knows that being alone creates a risk for a recurrence of her drug of choice. I supported her but I did not ask her to come home, or make any other promises to her. I kept my boundaries, but I felt I also gave her the support she needs. I reminded her of how well she had been doing for the last five years until the stress of our son leaving triggered this episode. I used the analogy of an alcoholic that is drinking forever, finally finds sobriety, struggles with it but stays sober for 5 years, then has a relapse when a major stressor hits. I know this is only one day, and only one therapy session but for the first time in a long time, I do have reason for hope.

Hi DS  :hi:

I just want to express how happy I am for you that there is a measure of hope on the table.  I think you are handling this in a very emotionally healthy and grounded way.  Just to maybe add a little to your cup of hope,  while I recognize a lot of the same behaviors in my exBPDh in your wife, at no point in the 2+ years we have been divorced, has he ever, ever acknowledged that he has a problem or that he has any mental health issues.  He simply has zero insight into his condition.  I am and continue to be the target of blame for all of the manifold issues in his life.  As I have very little to do with him anymore, you can imagine the bizarreness of his attempts to pin his failings on me at this point in time!  I'm happy to report that his complete denial of his issues makes my situation very different from yours. 

Hang in there  :hug:

Warmly,
B

That does sound promising, DS2020. I hope she sincerely continues her efforts in therapy.

I think you are doing well by letting her stay in her own space and you in yours for the time being. You each need time to work with your own therapists and get space to deal with individual things, and then maybe there will be a clear path forward for the relationship.

Has she talked to the kids any more at all?

Thank you B. Yes, it is comforting that their is some acknowledgement and seeking of treatment. It must be terribly frustrating to know that your ex has no insight into it whatsoever. Regardless of whether or not my marriage gets put back together or not, I sincerely hope for her sake that she stays on this path. It won't be easy.

IAR, yes we had to move my son into his college apartment yesterday. So we all had to spend some time together yesterday. It was a long drive and we did separate cars. My D drove with me and my wife drove with her mother. Apparently at the beginning of the drive my wife complained to her mother that D is being distant and bratty to her. Her mother suggested to her that maybe if she spent time with her but acted like a mother/daughter relationship and not bring up any discussions of the new guy, it would go better. That triggered a classic very angry rage, but she eventually calmed down. The rest of the day went fine. She is going out of her way to be nice and complimentary to me, which is odd. It certainly beats the alternative. While I think it is somewhat sincere, I think it also I think helps her to try to beat back the shame. She texted me last night and complimented me, stating how I was being a great parent, amazing dad, etc. I kept it cordial but short, thanking her, and stated I was just doing what any dad would do.

My son is being pleasant to her, not warm and loving, but that's not his style anyway. Daughter is trying to be nice, but still has a lot of resentment, and it does come out.

So, we will see. I'm going to lay low, see if she brings up the divorce again, and just hope she stays on the treatment path.

Well, I continue to be in this very bizarre situation. My BPD wife is now really pushing hard for this divorce. She has admitted multiple times now that she is mentally ill, that she has BPD, that inappropriate relationships are her drug of choice, and she is committed to regular counseling. But along with that she is telling me she has never been happy in our marriage, always felt alone, feels we have always been distant with each other, etc. She is not raging at me. She is essentially admitting that she has fallen for someone else, and that she feels shame in being with him while she is still married. But she also says this relationship may not work out and she may just need to be alone. I'm not disparaging him but he seems like the last guy you would pick out of a line-up as a partner for her.

While pushing me very hard for the quick divorce today, she also says "you never know, maybe in 6 months, we will miss each other and want to get back together." It is so crazy. She is as adamant about this as I've ever seen her. She also is incredibly convincing in her explanation. You start questioning yourself. It is impossible to have a rational conversation with her. I told her that I love her, and while things had not always been perfect, it certainly seemed that it was at least worth trying to work out with marriage counseling. She started getting a little angry and said "we have tried that." I reminded her that that was about 13 years ago and it was one or 2 visits at most.

Setting my needs and desires aside for a minute (and yes I know I should not be doing that), I am very fearful for her. I feel like she is making such a sudden life altering decision under such a stressful time for her, giving up everything she has lived for for the last 20 years for what? I'm terrified that she will wake up one day, snap out of what seems like this trance to me, and be devastated by what she has done. Her mother is beside herself with stress about this. I finally told her today that I am not going to fight her on this. I do not feel the same way that she does about our marriage or our future, but her feelings are her feelings and there was nothing more I could do. I feel very sad and helpless.

I'm so sorry DS  :hug: :hug:

So struck by the similarities in our story.  My exBPDh had the same steely resolve at the time of the divorce, said the same things but suggested we could try again in a couple of years if we were both single.  It was like watching a slow-motion train wreck and like you I could simply not believe that he could throw our family life built over two decades away so easily.

My therapist explained that my ex was literally rewriting the history of our marriage to suit his purposes (apparently I tortured him every minute of our relationship for 27 years).  Logically, this makes no sense - every minute of our relationship? - simple photos belie this claim.  But here's the thing, my ex absolutely and irrefutably believed and still believes his false narrative to be the truth.  It is so devastating to experience this behavior from a long term partner and most people just do not get it.

My exBPD has yet to wake up from his "trance" almost 3 years later and I don't think he ever will for what it's worth.  Your wife may never arrive at a place where she is devastated by her actions.  She may simply always pin all the blame on you to avoid the shame.  It's really hard to say.

I'm so sorry but I think that you likely should start to turn your attention to yourself and your children for the immediate future.

Warmly,

B

Thank you B again for sharing your similar experience. That irrefutable belief in their own reality is what is so difficult. And at least in my case, my wife is so convincing in her version of reality. You end up questioning your own recollection of things. In my case, I am fortunate, I can talk to my wife's mother and we are able to reaffirm our understanding of reality. We both love my wife very much but share the deep concern for her well being. I have accepted that I cannot change her mind, nor will I try. I do have to focus on my kids and myself. Unless things change in an unexpected way, I will need to move over to the divorce/breaking up board for support. Thanks again for sharing your experiences.

Well I had moved my story over to the divorce board, as we had moved forward on her insistence, got an attorney, and filed the initial paperwork. I have gotten myself in a better place, working out, feeling better, accepting of the reality of what is happening, etc.
She has been attending therapy weekly and reading her BPD books.
Now she is texting and calling and asking to come back, lamenting what a horrible mistake she has made. She is now idolizing me. Going back to my analogy of the 16 year old that has run away from home, her reality is starting to set in.
She is off on a vacation she planned with her "boyfriend" which was centered around her visiting relatives on her father's side that she has had nothing to do with for 40 ears. The main person she was wanting to see was her cousin, who also has BPD, and who also threw away her marriage, and is now living a pretty sad life. She fought with her "boyfriend" the night before she was to fly out, disinvited him, called me to say she was going alone, and then apparently made up with him later that night and "allowed" him to go with her. Not surprisingly, the day of her planned visit to see her BPD cousin, she was disorganized and running an hour and a half late. She contacted her cousin to let her know she was running late, and the cousin told her she no longer wanted to see her and how rude and disrespectful it was that my wife was so late. You could not script this thing any better.
She called me today again and asked if I would pick her up at the airport and get a drink with her. She texted several times asking if I would reconsider this divorce and let her come back. I'm really torn. I did not emphatically say no. I did say I would not pick her up at the airport. I told her I need to have boundaries, and I did not think that me picking her up would be a wise choice for me. I reminded her that it was her decision to leave, her decision to get a divorce, her decision to rush the divorce, and her decision to refuse my 3 or 4 requests for us to attend marriage counseling. She said she knew and did not disagree with anything I was saying. She was just feeling very sorry for herself. She completely accepts her BPD and feels bad about it.

I'm just not sure where to go next with this. Just when I was accepting my future, she is now wanting to come back. The good times with her are very good, but I am enjoying not walking on eggshells, no anger, no fear of how she may react to things.

Extra-marital affairs typically take a while to wind down. They are still together. What do you think about inviting her back, and would you be ok with the added dimension of navigating their break up?

Oh I think they seem to be fully broken up. That's not really the issue. The issue is how much harm she has done to me and the rest of our family with her actions. In addition to the challenge i  would have in trusting her or being intimate with her, I would wonder whether this would be repeated.

More than ever, I believe my original theory was correct. In an effort to avoid the emotional stress and psychological trauma she was facing with our son moving out for college, she reverted to her old psychological escape - an inappropriate relationship with another man. He happened to be in the right place (or the wrong place) at the time. In order to justify what she was doing in her head, she had to create a narrative in which I was a husband who did not meet up to her expectations. Now that reality is setting in, she is desperate to get back to what she had.

I am in a situation in which I would have a myriad of pre-conditions to even consider taking her back, but we know how pwBPD deal with ultimatums. I have told her mother, who I have a close relationship with, that at a minimum I would need to see her fully committed to ongoing regular counseling, she would need to stay away and work on herself for at least another month, she would need to stop any and all relationships, even just flirting, with all other men, and she would need to agree to an ironclad post nuptial agreement that mirrored what we have agreed to in this pending divorce. We would also need some pretty intense family and marriage counseling to try to heal the wounds. How that will be received is yet to be seen.

How do you think that all would be perceived by her?

I'm guessing that at the moment (and we all know what that means), she would be good with it. Problem is I don't want it to come off as an ultimatum. Trying to utilize her mom as a conduit and for her mom to offer these things up as suggestions to her.

Be careful communicating though her mom. That triangulation could get messy. Things will get lost in translation, and your wife will likely feel different emotions hearing it from Mommy rather than you.

Legitimate concern Turkish, despite the fact that MIL and I have a very close relationship. Any advice on how to have those discussions without it sounding like an ultimatum? To this day she resents deeply my resisting initially the engagement because I was concerned about her mental health and her rage. I said things like "I need us to be able to go a month or two without any big blow-ups before I get engaged, because I had obvious concerns about her then undiagnosed BPD traits. In her mind, I was committing mortal sins by dangling the engagement in front of her, and rather than view it as me having justified concerns about her rage issues, she viewed it practically as abuse on my part.

The lessons at the top of the board are helpful material.

The communication tools in Lesson 3 detail how to communicate better with a pwBPD. 

1.15 | Communicate - Listen and Be Heard (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0)

I know that's a lot. There are top level summaries in the green pull downs at the top of the site "Tools" in this case.  SET, for example:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

I'm not sure how I would react in your situation if my wife showed some remorse or contrition, but a good start would be opening a dialog. Start there.

My ex-MIL liked me a lot and even told her daughter to stop, but in the end, she made her choices and I made mine. At the time, she showed zero remorse, quite the opposite, so you have something to work with.

Thanks Turkish. She called me bawling last night from her new apartment, lamenting what a mess she has made of her life, how badly she was doing mentally, how she did not know what was wrong with her. Her "boyfriend" broke up with her because he couldn't take the chaos. She asked me to come to see her because she wasn't doing well. I calmly but sternly told her I would not go to her apartment. I told her the problem is obvious to me and those who know her best. She has Borderline Personality Disorder and her behaviors are textbook. I told her that she needs to work on herself and get to a point where she can love herself, and that if she continues to jump into new relationships thinking she will fill some void in her life, she will continue to follow the same pattern of splitting, push/pull, sabotage, break ups, chaos, and the resulting depression and continued degradation in her self esteem.
I also told her that any reconciliation on our part would require a whole lot of commitments at a minimum before I would even consider it. That would include a commitment to ongoing intensive therapy (weekly at minimum), continued self-help, eliminating all extra-marital relationships, dating, flirting, etc. (obviously), some pretty significant marriage and family counseling, and an agreement to sign a post nuptial agreement that spells out settlement terms for any future divorce. It would mirror the terms in our current divorce agreement that is underway right now.

I once again complimented her on all her attractive traits that made me fall in love with her, while also acknowledging how awful and destructive her behaviors can be. I tried to be compassionate, yet stern, sticking to facts. We did end the call amicably and she had stabilized by the end of the call. Apparently she reported to her mother how much better she felt after talking to me.

Ultimately, I am comfortable and feeling good about my situation. I can accept divorce and moving on, and I can accept a reconciliation, but only on the conditions I laid out above.

I hadn't posted in a while. My separated BPD wife has continued her descent and is now having the breakdown that I assumed was coming. She has sunk into a deep depression, barely eating or drinking, feeling very sorry for herself, but also totally remorseful (at the moment) for all the damage she has caused. Her extramarital relationship (which was just a symptom of her BPD and a reaction to her inability to cope with her son leaving for college) has failed. She is in a very dark place. She has begged repeatedly to be able to come back, and I have stood firm and said no. She has finally agreed to enter an intensive inpatient treatment center. She goes in tomorrow. In addition to BPD, she has very significant obsessive thoughts and fears. She also is ADHD and while I don't think she meets all criteria of bipolar, certainly has manic episodes.

She is obviously terrified, and I am crossing my fingers that she will not back out. Her mother and I are taking her tomorrow morning. I have repeatedly told her that she needs to get better not just for any future relationships with me, our kids, or anyone else, but most importantly for herself. I agreed to slow down on the divorce which was what she was really pushing for initially. I have explained that this intensive therapy will need to be accompanied with the correct medication, and lots of ongoing therapy and hard work on her part.

Anyone here have any luck with inpatient intensive therapy? I know it is not a panacea, but hoping it will get her pointed in the right direction