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My mother wants my partner and me to go to her house for Christmas. There is currently a lockdown and you're only allowed to be inside with people from your immediate household (I don't live with her). The lockdown is supposed to end on December 21st, but there is a good chance that it could keep going over Christmas. My sister hasn't really been following the rules all along and she's already agreed to go. My mom keeps saying, "but your sister's going to come over." I don't know how to stand up to her without upsetting her more. She just sent me a text saying she thought I was using the pandemic to avoid Christmas because I didn't like it. It also angers me because my dad is at high risk and she doesn't seem to care about following the rules to keep him safe when it comes to things she wants to do.

When my mom and I fight we can go for long times without talking because instead of standing up to her I don't talk to her. I don't know what to say to calm things down without her getting mad at me and still standing up for myself and my principles.

Does anyone have some suggestions?

Hey...can you tell me more about the importance of doing this without making her mad? 

My guess is she will miss you.  Are you ok with her expressing her emotions?

Best,

FF

hi wmm,
well you know you don't make her upset

She chooses to get upset when you stand up for yourself.

I recommend Letting go of the Outcome.  Keep standing up for yourself, it gets easier with time.  Some things I do to soothe myself when I want to stand up for myself, but find it hard to stand up for myself, then doubt if I should have stood up for myself:  total binge on reality TV (yay!), give myself a hug and do a little dance because I stood up for myself KNOWING the other person would not like it (and would choose, they chose not me, to get angry), reward myself with a treat.

((wmm)

this is hard, but so important for you

b

Thanks for the feedback. I stood up to her but it did NOT go well. I ended up having to block her because she was sending so many mean messages. She said she didn't know why I was "such a rule follower" and that I had let everyone down among other things. The problem about blocking someone is I won't see any of the messages later so I won't know if I'll miss an apology from her, which could make it worse. I just don't want to be looking at hurtful messages all the time and wake up to them.

I just feel that it's important to follow the rules because we have a lot of cases and a lot of people are dying and I don't want to put other people at risk, especially my family

I don't know how to proceed and resolve this. I know there will always be some issue down the line and I'm proud of myself for standing up to her. I'm just really nervous about dealing with what's to come. Should I unblock her in case she tries to make amends? Otherwise what should I do?

Try this on for size.

How about giving it 24 or 48 a hours and then send her best wishes kind of communication when  you unblock her.

I don't think it's up to you to fix/resolve this.  Do you?

In you best wishes...don't raise the issue again.  Just wish her well.

Perhaps you can practice writing the message to us. 

What do you think?

Hey...I'm proud of you for being safe!  For standing up for what you believe.

Best,

FF

My BPD mother responds to boundaries by pushing against them. It may help to think of boundaries as being about you, not your mother. You can't control what she says or does, you can only control what you do.

Our own boundaries are a reflection of our value system. Yes, you care about your mother, but you also know it's important to take care of yourself- as you did over Thanksgiving, because you need rest, you need your job.

Ordinarily, we expect others who are close to us to naturally respect our boundaries. If a family member is tired, I would want them to rest because I care about them. But a person with BPD might not perceive the boundary the same way.

You have boundaries that you would be willing to stand up to your mother for, no matter how she reacts. Let's imagine she asked you to commit a crime. Since you are not a criminal, I am willing to bet you won't do it no matter what. She might be upset, take victim mode " I can't believe you won't rob a bank for me" but you know it's wrong to do that and you won't do it.

It's actually you that decides to uphold your boundary- is it more important to you to get rest or to help your mother? Is it more important to you to follow the Covid-19 restrictions or to break them to appease her? How you stand up for your decision depends on your commitment to them, not to her, because she's going to react how she reacts and you have no control over what she does.

IMHO, both the pwBPD and the people connected to them can have difficulty with emotional regulation. You give in when she's upset because it's hard to manage your own feelings when she is. The solution is to be able to manage your discomfort better, rather than try to influence hers.

You might need some support with this- a therapist, a close friend, someone who can help you deal with your own upset at her reaction.

Think about why you decided to not attend a large gathering? You don't want to take this risk, not for you and not for your parents. This is a decision based on self care and also concern for your parents. You need to stay focused on your own motives. They aren't meant to be hurful or malicious. They are done from a position of concern. How your mother perceives this does not change this. Your mother can also decide for herself whether or not she wants to take on the risk of a large gathering. Your part is to decide on what you will do.

Thank you for your advice. I don't know what to say to her other than 'I hope you're well." I don't know if I missed an apology from her. I have a lot of stress going on at work so I don't really want to deal with it. I wish there was a way to receive the messages I missed after unblocking her but there isn't. If I tell her I didn't get any of her messages because I blocked her she's going to get really mad. My brother and his girlfriend (who both live with her) messaged me and said they understood why I wouldn't come and supported. That felt good but I don't like that she is trying to control my relationships with my family members. What should I say once I unblock her?

Less is better. 

Your "I hope you are well" is ok (but it directly asks about her).

I would steer you towards "Happy Thanksgiving"...which doesn't imply as much of a question.

If you miss the apology, you miss it.

Best,

FF

I would but I'm Canadian and our Thanksgiving was in October

I don't know if I can reach out yet. I unblocked her and I got more mean messages from her. Should I try anyways or wait more?

Your mother's behavior towards you is really abusive.  I'm sorry you have to endure this mistreatment.  Maybe you could unblock her once a week when you're not dealing with a lot of work stress?  I don't know the answer, I am blessed in that my uNPD mother doesn't use social media, computers or a smart phone.  What a huge blessing, I cannot imagine the garbage she would spew if she had email or text capability! 

I often use the line "I'm sorry you feel that way."  

End of discussion.  I treat my uNPD family members like strangers at the bus stop when they are acting out.  I no longer engage or play a role in their drama filled lives.

Everyone has to make their own decisions about how they deal with the pandemic and lock down rules.  What level of risk your sister is okay with does not dictate how you should feel and behave, that is solely up to you and what you are comfortable with.  

Good luck!  I personally think you are doing the right thing to avoid the family gatherings and the right thing isn't always the easiest route to take.  I hope you have an abuse-free, quiet, peaceful, restful, joyful and relaxing holiday at home with your partner.  

IMHO, if you want to resume contact with her, I would not go back in time and rehash it. Just say "hi, how are you". Personally, I don't think backtracking turns out well. If she brings it up, be lighthearted about it. " I just wanted to say hello today". The less emotion and drama the better.

Resume contact when you are ready. If she sends more mean messages, well she does. The  main thing is to keep your cool and don't react with more drama. The goal here is to act from your own decision - not base it on her reaction and don't react to her comments or moods.

I unblocked my mom today in case she was trying to mend things with me so I could see it. It brought on so much anxiety that I quickly blocked her again.
I don't want to resume contact with my mom. I feel like I should for the sake of my family. My dad reached out to me and told me to contact my mother. I told him I wasn't going to let her bully me. He was ok with my decision but I don't know how long he will be. I told him I'd talk to her once she calmed down. If my parents were separated I would have cut her out of my life a long time ago. I want to be able to see the rest of my family and it's hard without seeing her. I'm afraid my family will be mad at me if I cut my mom out of my life and I'll lose contact with them. My parents also have been helping me pay off my student loan. This has made me financially dependent on them because I'm having a hard time financially right now because of the pandemic. I don't want her to have this control over me though. At this point I feel like I'd rather struggle financially than have to talk to her. I'm afraid my family won't pick up the phone if I call them on Christmas. I'm especially afraid that my younger sister will be mad at me. She is very close with my mom and often takes my mom's side when my mother gets mad at someone in the family. She also isn't following the social distancing rules.
My mother treated my sister differently than the rest of us. My mom was the middle child and was treated badly by her parents. My sister is the middle child and my Mom wanted to make sure my sister didn't have the same experience. I don't have a lot of friends. I don't want to feel isolated. Does anyone know how I can keep I'm contact with my family and have them respect my decision to not have my mother in my life?

Hey..I'm on your side, please don't experience this as criticism.

I would hope that your contact with your Mom does not depend on her "calmness" (that puts her in control).

I would hope and encourage you to reach out to her. 

How about this.  Unblock her, send her a short message and then block her again.  Check back in a few days.  (decide now how long...does 2 days seem right?)

Here is my big message..I want you in control and I want you to take control and be proactive. (details of how exactly that happens can be worked through).

OK...seriously, take a few deep inhales and exhales.  No...not those.  Really get it all out and really fill all the way up.

Maybe walk around some after that and I want you to pay attention to how you feel.  No..not I feel because of my Mom or because of...  stick with how you feel.

When you are ready...I'd love to hear about how you feel.

Best,

FF

If I block her again I won't see any message from her that she might send me. She's a gaslighter. She told me in a taker not a giver, that me but going to Christmas is the most cruel thing I've ever done to her, etc.. I don't want to hear any more of those cruel things.

This from NotWendy: “The solution is to be able to manage your discomfort better, rather than try to influence hers.”

The first time I read something like this on one of my posts a long time ago, it stopped me in my tracks.  It is a pearl of wisdom that was a turning point for me.  

Instead of expending a lot of emotion and energy  on how to avoid her reaction (cs shes going to react regardless), move towards learning to tolerate your own distress of her reactions.  

Distress tolerance helps us be more resilient.  It’s a skill that we can learn, just like we can learn to run, cook, or drive a car.

The hardest part is accepting the shift in thinking, and letting go of being defensive, and maybe even victim mode.  Once the shift in thinking happens,  the distress tolerance can get easier.  Thats how it happened for me anyways. Clarity followed. It was as if the fog lifted.

You are making a rational decision about travel in a pandemic.  Shes reacting emotionally instead of rationally to your decision.  That’s the BPD.  Its to be expected.  

Are you familiar with distress tolerance?

Instead of worrying about missing an apology from your mom (my mom hasn’t apologized for anything in her life to my knowledge), keep a healthy line of communication open with your brother.  

Can they set up a FT, Skype Or Zoom so you can participate that way on Christmas day?  Offering a solution like this seems reasonable, and keeps things moving forward.

She also sounds afraid you are using the pandemic to avoid being with her.  This speaks to the BPD and sounds like a fear of abandonment.  Using a SET response here could help to calm things down and de-escalate.
 :hug:

My mom emailed me and sent me a nice song. I said I would talk to her tomorrow and she said she wanted to come to my place to talk next Monday in person. I don't want her at my place. I'm going to have a hard time standing up to her in person. She intimidates me. There's no lockdown where I live. I'm not sure what to say. I was thinking I could say let's talk on the phone and then take it from there. I don't want to give her the idea that everything is back to the way it was though and is just ok because for me it's not. Any advice?

I emailed her and said I wanted to talk to her on the phone tomorrow before seeing each other in person. She emailed me back saying no and that she wanted to talk in person. She also said "I don't understand why this is so hard for you." I feel like she put the blame back on me. This is my first time standing up to my mom like this and it's very stressful. I don't know how to make this stop and still stand my ground.

This was a good response on your part.  She countered with a demand that puts her in control.  Could it be that as soon as she said this, your body and brain went into panic mode because you don't want her at your house?  Are you by any chance somewhat emotionally fearful of your mother?  I went through a really bad spell with my mom a while ago, and when she behaved like this, I felt like a deer in the headlights.  Frozen.  The trick is to manage our emotional reaction to our mother's words, so that we can continue to think clearly in the moment, and have a good response immediately, rather than after the said interaction is over.  Was saying you would talk to her tomorrow already an olive branch on your part perhaps?  She has some reason for wanting to come to you in person. It's totally OK to respond with "No mom, next Monday won't work for me, but I can phone you again tomorrow."  This offers a solution.  If she insists on meeting next Monday, use the broken record technique:  No mom,  next Monday won't work for me, but I can phone you again tomorrow." If she doesn't withdraw her demand, "I have to go now mom.  Bye."  This example keeps you in control, and holding your boundary. Keep the message short and simple.

So the first part of your email response was good, but next time, I would suggest ending the sentence after "...phone tomorrow".  Adding the part "before seeing each other in person" kind of sets up opportunity for conflict, because it gives her something to argue with, or in this case, gave her something to counter with (a demand to come to your house).  In my experience, the simplest message is best, because it gives her little or no target.  And never explain anything.  That gets into JADEing, which tends to escalate.

If you don't feel emotionally safe seeing her at all, you could still call her tomorrow as you already said you would, and then when she says she wants to come to your house next Monday, just tell her you already had plans.  Then arrange your Monday to do errands or be "out and about" so that if she comes anyway, you are not home. On the other hand, perhaps the worst case scenario won't happen, and the phone call will be cordial?  Maybe start the conversation by repeating that you enjoyed the song.  Compliment her by telling her she picked a nice one!  That may disarm her, and perhaps the rest of the conversation will go better than expected.  Keep it on the short and sweet side, before anything has time to go sideways.    

If and when you decide you are ready to meet with her face to face, it can be helpful to meet in a public place for coffee or lunch.  BPD's generally behave better when there are other people around.  You could even arrange to have a friend there with you.  This would be a better option than her coming to your home, where you are trapped alone with her.  

I am glad to see that the idea of being able to manage your own discomfort has helped others, as it has helped me too.

This is something that can take some personal work and practice. Please don't get discouraged if it takes some time. It's not easy to feel we have disappointed our parents or they are upset with us. But we can learn to manage our own discomfort and stay calm and not reactive with them- which can add fuel to the drama.

Also keep in mind, your mother is accustomed to getting her way- and when you decide to stand up for yourself, her first response is to keep doing what she's used to doing- that is to push the boundary and get what she wants. While you are trying different relationship "tools"- she will still use the ones she has that work for her.

IMHO, I think a pwBPD tends to see things from victim perspective. This is from my own interactions with my BPD mother. When someone sees things from victim perspective, it's not her fault. " I don't understand why this is so hard for you" ---ie " this isn't about me, it's you"

We can not change how someone else is thinking or perceiving things. Just because she doesn't see her part in it doesn't make it true, but trying to change her mind, express your point of view- is not going to get you the results you wish for. For me, with my mother, I just don't go there with her. It's likely to lead to a disregulation. My mother copes with these things by projection and disregulation.

My mother also does the " we are all good now" without looking back at what may have happened. There isn't the kind of resolution from talking things over. I don't know your mother, but I think sending the song to you is a form of " we are all good now".

IMHO, talking about what happened, trying to get your mother to understand your perspective is not likely to lead to the kind of understanding you are seeking by talking to her, either on the phone or in person. This is probably a frequent pattern of " we are all good now".

My own boundaries with my mother are more on the emotional level. I don't discuss my own feelings with her, or backtrack to try to resolve conflicts. We can meet in person, and talk about other things like a book we read, or something the kids did like did their soccer team win- topics that don't have a lot of emotion attached to them. Again, it comes down to me- I don't want to get emotional with her, it's not something I want to get into with her.

Your mother has already pushed one of your boundaries- your wish to not meet in person until you have spoken on the phone. However, I question the usefulness of that phone conversation in terms of achieving what you want to achieve. I like the idea of meeting in a public place. She's less likely to escalate in public. Maybe consider inviting her for coffee or lunch and keeping it light and not emotional. 

I am terrified of my mother. I have PTSD from her emotional and psychocological abuse.

She sent me another email after saying all her friends and family say she's very emotionally intelligent (not true) but that somehow she doesn't get feedback from me. She also said it was like at the beginning of the pandemic when "I had prepared a very lovely lunch for you and you cancelled saying you would only feel comfortable going to a local Starbucks." I cancelled because I was sick and she hadn't prepared anything because it was the day before. I think I have tried the Starbucks thing before though. I DO NOT want her in my home. I feel like that'll be giving in too much and it would be really hard for me to tell her to leave (I think she knows this). She's gaslighting me. I would preferably have nothing to do with her.

I understand. Growing up, we kids were afraid of my mother. I was also afraid of my father's disapproval. If my mother was not happy with me, she'd enlist my father to side with her.

Once, a stranger yelled at me in a parking lot. I was shaken up for several minutes, couldn't find my car keys, acted confused. I recognized the reaction- yes, PTSD- and - and angry people can elicit this.

The good thing about this is - this is your emotional reaction. Yes, she may trigger it but we can learn to control our reactions. It's a lot more effective than trying to walk on eggshells and appease people to try to avoid the anger. It can take some work  but it's worth doing.

Your mom is doing what has worked for her. My mother does this too. "all my friends say this about me- so it's your fault. " bringing in others to triangulate. So her friends may think she's great, or that your mom has a high EQ or whatever - your reality is yours, not theirs, and you can still think what you want to think.

Self care is important. If seeing your mother is too tough on you, then don't do it. For me, it was easier if I visited with someone else ( another family member) and was not alone with her, and also for short visits.

I just talked to her on the phone. She was crying a lot and playing the victim. I tried to do the Grey Rock method https://www.healthline.com/health/grey-rock and be as emotionless as possible.  I'm glad I did it. I want this to just end but she's already texting me upset. This is so tiring.

You get it to stop by holding your boundary.

"Mom, right now I'm offering to talk on the phone.  I'm not willing to discuss meeting in person."  (basically...you need to own your boundary)

Hang in there, you are doing the right thing.

Best,

FF

hi wmm,
You are going through a lot and I can hear it in your posts.  Your mom is fighting hard to keep you in your place, and you are fighting for your life.  I get it.  Your life is You get to make decisions for yourself, free of guilt, free of gaslighting, free of emotional manipulation. 

I'm sorry your sister and dad take your Mom's side, that is very hard too and is a form of secondary abuse.  "Let's all gang up on the one asserting their boundaries!" 

Just know you are right in deciding for yourself your own preferences. Your mom can try but won't succeed at morphing you into her.

This will get better, don't worry.  You are doing great.
 :hug:

b

"All of the above".

Just chiming in my support again.  You are doing the right thing by holding your boundary.  Stay your course. :hug:

Thank you all for your support.
My dad texted me last night just before I went to sleep telling me to call my mom this morning to figure things out. I told him I couldn't because I had to work. He told me to talk to her on Friday (I don't work on Fridays) and I said I would. He then said he didn't want to get involved and I pointed out that I never asked him to. He said my mother felt like she wasn't loved and she was worried it was going to turn out like her relationship with her mother (they had a bad relationship and my grandmother was cold).

I don't want to talk to her. Being able to block her has helped me get through the week. I don't know what to say to her. Our last conversation did not go well last Monday. Does anyone have any suggestions of what I could/should say to her? I'm tired of her bullying me and her saying cruel things to me and the not apologizing. As of our last conversation she still hasn't accepted that I'm not coming to xmas even though I told her it was about covid and that I would like to see everyone if it weren't for covid. I want to tell her that I don't want her to say mean things to me anymore and I won't stand for it. I also want her to respect my decision. I want an apology. Is that too much to expect? Does anyone know how I can word things to lower the chance of upsetting her?

So...we are talking about a phone call tomorrow...right?


What is it that you Dad expects?  A phone call or are there specific things you have agreed to discuss or solve with Mom?

Note:  For now..let's focus on this phone call, later let's talk about your other relationships and people being involved.

If you had a choice between her bullying behavior going down or getting an apology, which would you choose?  For the sake of this argument, you don't get to have both.

1.  Yes you should call tomorrow.  (If I have details right)


For the rest I'll wait on answers.

Best,

FF

hi wmm,
I don't have any good advice on wording to make your mom hear you.  I understand this is extremely difficult for you.

Just wanted to support your decision of "no contact", you get to make that regardless of what Mom or Dad want or regardless of how much they plead, and you get to also choose when to disengage, for your own safety (even if it's only of mind).

I will mention that this was my Mom before I went NC with her for 7 years.  She enlisted my Dad to tell me to call her.  She gave me guilt trips if I didn't want to see her on holidays.  She basically used me as just an extension of herself, I existed to please her, not as a separate person with a mind, heart and feelings of my own.

take some deep breaths, and i invite you to see your options
sorry this is so hard
 :hug:

b

I am a big fan of the use of selective engagement.  You seem to be doing well blocking for  period of time and then picking a time to engage. 

Guess what...if tomorrow's call doesn't go well, you can block again and recuperate.  Even better...if it does go well, you can block and celebrate for a while...without any communication to undo your celebration.



Let's be frank here.  Is it likely she will accept this decision?  What can you look to in your past that indicates this is a likely outcome?  (I'm curious..there may be reasons, I'm still getting to know your story)

For now...let's assume she won't accept it.  Let's also assume your mind is made up.

For tomorrow's phone call.

Don't bring up Christmas.  I want you to be proactive and have a couple topics to bring up.

1.  Movies/shows/books/youtube.  Do you normally talk about them.  Launch into one and tell your Mom how great it is and that you thought she might like to watch/read it as well and that you would like to hear her reaction.  (think about this...it's a deliberate "bid" for her attention and letting her know that you would like to connect with her)

2.  We both know she will bring up your travel plans (or however she describes it)...so go ahead and work through those emotions now.  During the phone call

blah blah blah so are you coming from Christmas..blah blah blah

"Oh that..no new information there Mom." be obvious about taking a breath and then go to next item on your agenda (let's say it something about cooking, maybe a new dish you want to try)

let's assume she is like many other pwBPD and she is not going to let it go

"blah blah you aren't going to be here blah blah"

"Mom, there is nothing more to say about that "(do not say travel or Christmas) quick breath "I do hope we have a lot to say about that prime rib roast I was talking about" (for real..we made one at Thanksgiving, very simple...yet mouth watering)

If she get's abusive, bully, bosses and won't leave closed subjects alone...

"Mom, I'm not discussing this.  We can talk about something else or end the phone call.  What do you prefer?" 

If she talks about something else...enjoy the victory.

If she hangs on.  Hangup and block.  Focus on self care. 

Do you follow the flow of how it can go with YOU being in charge of the agenda and YOU giving her choices of how to interact in a healthy way and YOU deciding to pull away if your Mom chooses a bad path.

You've got this!

Best,

FF

Thanks for all the good advice. On top of Christmas, she wants to talk about our relationship. She wants to be closer (I don't).

Thanks for all the good advice. On top of xmas, she wants to talk about our relationship because she wants to be closer. I don't want to be closer. I want the opposite.

Be proactive...pick something harmless (like a show/book/youtuber) and make a "bid" for closeness "over there".

For the rest, don't discuss it.

So...if she wants to get into relationship issues with you tomorrow (general or specific), go through the same thing as before.

"Mom..I'm not going to talk about that right now.  I am able to talk about (x)"

Then proceed.

Listen..I'm far too well aware of the complicated and mixed emotions with this "how could you" thing sitting on top. 

Own your decisions...own your life and your relationships.  That means building some up and limiting others.  My goal is for you to decide this and do this for a period of months.

My guess is after that period your outlook will begin to shift.  From there we can talk more about long term.

You've got tomorrow.  Focus there.  1 phone call...you can do it.

Best,

FF

Thanks for the helpful suggestions. I think that my mom wants to talk about our relationship. She wants to be closer (and I don't). I don't know what to say to her without really upsetting her or committing to something I don't want.

Yes, I believe she wants the relationship, but doesn't have the emotional ability to sustain the kind of relationship she wants. Neither does my mother. But I do think as mothers, they see the relationship other mothers have with their children and do want it.

It might help to consider what "closeness" means to your mother. It might mean something different than you think it is. For my mother, I think it means we need to validate her and do things for her but from my point of view, that isn't emotional closeness.

One thing you can do if you meet up with her is mainly listen. She might push you to agree to something. Practice neutral statements such as " I will think about this"  rather than a yes or no. You can validate her feelings rather than commit to something or agree with something. If she says " it's all your fault" you can say " I understand that you feel this way". There is information about validating and listening on this board.

Only disclose what you are comfortable with. Don't JADE or try to get her to understand you. Likely she can't.  But listening and validating - not validating the invalid but her feelings about it- might bring about some peace in the moment.

I'll take the easy thing first.

She asks you to commit to something.  Ask a  clarifying question or two.  Perhaps reflect back to her and ask her for confirmation that you have the request right.

Then let her know you will give it some thought.  (if you are religious, perhaps say "prayer and thought")

Now for the hard one.

Many times you have likely been blamed for your Mom being upset.  Most likely your Mom's emotions are on edge and you conveniently provided a quick excuse for blame and rage. 

So...I'm sad to say that she will likely keep getting upset.  I hope you can "depersonalize" that and I also hope that you quickly end phone calls where this happens.

Your Mom can want to talk about the relationship all she wants.  You control what YOU talk about.  Give her the option..then hold you boundary.  It may take several phone calls for her to get the message.

Note:  I'm not aware of any way to do this where she is "happy" about it.   :hug: :hug: :hug:

Best,

FF

Love the dialogue plan FF has laid out.

The first time sticking to your own boundary is crazy hard.  The second and third was about the same for me.  After that, it started to get - well, not exactly easier, but maybe easier to follow through.  It's kind of like when a kid is 4 or 5 years old, and climbs their first tall tree.  It's really hard and scary, but in their head they know it's something they gotta do. But by the 3rd or 4th time going up that tree, they get faster and it feels easier, even though it's still the same tree.

You've got this wmm.  Print off FF's script as a guide (more of a security blanket to give you confidence maybe), and keep it by the phone.  And remember to breathe during the phone call. Maybe a sticky note reminder in front of you that says "breathe". 

Books, the weather, house chores or whatever neutral subject you can think of.  Be determined not to get drawn into her emotional drama.  When you know your time is up (well before a blow up), "I have to go.  Bye for now."

You will get to the other side of the phone call.  When it's over, take a break, and treat yourself to some self-care.
 :hug:

Yes...and not the wimpy kind.  4-5 really deep...I mean deep and then get all the air out.

Here is the deal, many years ago...in a galaxy far far away, young FF got ready to hold his first boundary and I was scared (it felt so weird).

Many people that had been around for a while gave me scripts, encouraged me and built me up.

Guess what, it went pretty much like they predicted...I did the script and got past it.  The next one was better...and so on.

You've got this!

Best,

FF

hi wmm,

Ahhh, the old "I want to be closer" trick.  Yup, I recognize that one as it's also in my BPD'd Mom's playbook.  What it usually means (and I am guessing it's why you're having this anxiety) is, she wants to dictate to you again, how you should feel.

hate it

Agree with all the suggestions thus far, and it does get easier with time.  take deep breaths, use a distraction technique if you get triggered during the call.  i use my dog as an excuse when my mom says something disturbing that I want to pretend not to have heard...

Example:  Mom - b, you really should BLAH BLAH BLAH
Me - holy crap!  (laughs), the dog just blankety blank blank blank, sorry what did you say?  [don't wait for answer] OH look at the time, Mom I have to go!  talk to you later *click*

Eventually they get the picture that this is the new you, the one they can't snowball.  Hard at first, surprisingly easy later, when you get the hang of it.  I do like to throw the laughing curve ball at her, since she's usually trying to (whether she realizes it or not) make me mad

 :hug: wmm

b

I talked to her. She wasn't angry. She asked me if I had anything I needed to say and I repeated that I didn't feel comfortable going to her place for Christmas and that it wasn't anything personal and I would miss everyone. She said that she understood and wish I had said it that way in the first place (that was how I said it to her twice). Her way to get a jab in. She also said she wanted to know if I appreciated what my father and her had done raising me and she knew it wasn't perfect. I told her I did appreciate her and gave her an example. She wasn't asking for an apology so I said it but I don't know if I shouldn't have. I didn't know what to say. I do appreciate a lot of the things they did for me. My mom isn't always bad. If she was it would be a lot easier to cut her out of my life. I was good at not telling her anything too personal. I'm worried maybe I didn't stand up to her enough although I didn't give in to going to Christmas. No apology from her, which isn't new. She thinks everything is back to normal now. I sometimes slip when it comes to keeping things simple with her when she's being nice. I'm afraid that when I talk to her I'll say too much by mistake. She can be really nice, or at least act like it, when she wants to. Did I mess up?

Congratulations on a successful phone call. |iiii You managed it well, and nothing bad happened. :) You resisted her jabs, and kept your own Covid Christmas boundary of staying home.

Is "it" an apology?  It kind of sounds like she didn't ask for an apology, but you gave her one anyway.  I call that "conditioning", if that's what happened...she's trained you to apologise.  lol. Don't sweat it. IMHO apologies are best used when we have something we genuinely wish to apologize for, and it comes from within our own hearts, not because of someone else's demands, or need to control. 
Maybe just change the topic of conversation?
Could you keep a list of neutral topics handy - weather, kids, cooking, pets etc?  It might be easier to not cross your own boundary of saying too much, if you have other topics of conversation ready that you could switch too. 

You did great.  |iiii You were stressed about this phone call, and you handled it really well. Congrats!  Next time something comes up, remember that this went well, and keep building on these small successes.  Baby steps.

It is progress, not perfection, and you will get better at this with practice. So don't worry if your response wasn't "perfect". You made progress with not getting into drama with her while holding on to a boundary ( not coming for Christmas) and also not biting the bait " if you had said it the first time". Yay!

You are becoming more self aware of your behavior and your feelings. When you do go on automatic- apologize, say something habitual, you feel uncomfortable. Good! Pay attention to these feelings and they will guide you. Make note of what you do/say automatically and you will be able to change your responses in time.

She also said she wanted to know if I appreciated what my father and her had done raising me and she knew it wasn't perfect.

This is what I call the "dry erase" method of apology. It's not really an apology. It's enlisting you into a mutual agreement to erase what happened- it's all good now. I don't see this as something sinister- I see it as the best apology my mother can do.   Keep in mind that pwBPD have difficulty with uncomfortanble emotions. Shame is a tough one. I don't think my mother can handle that. The least bit of a suggestion that she wasn't perfect will cause her distress and to dysregulate. I have heard her alude to how she raised me maybe only twice " well it wasn't quite perfect" and that's about all she can do. This dees not mean what happened didn't happen,  but that it's not helpful to bring it up as that won't lead to a better resolution.

Best to not seek an apology from her or bring up the past, but to move forward with your own boundaries and new skills for how to relate to her in a way that is more authentic to you. This is a work in progress.

She thinks "all is fine now". Well good. You can still keep working on you- your autonomy, and how to stand up for yourself without contributing to the drama patterns.

I'm going to say two thumbs up. 

It appears to me that you went into the phone call with a couple "lines drawn" that you were not going to cross (travelling being number 1) and you held them.

I see a bit of unease and questioning because a couple things "came at you" that you weren't quite prepared for and seem straightforward.

"Do you appreciate..."?

I'm not sure I've ever heard it put that way before.

Certainly with me I tend to get myself in trouble when it's the first time I've seen/heard something.  Sometimes if it's been a while (like what happened a few days ago to me). 

Anyway...these forums are not about teaching us to always be perfect and never mess up.  They are about giving us confidence in tools that when we "see" a booboo, we know how to handle it.

You will continue to improve.  Count this phone call as a victory and keep moving.

Best,

FF

Unrecovered borderline personalities cannot do conflict resolution.  It is their way or the highway.  My mother manipulated me using my pity for her and my fear of her hysterical reactions when she was inconvenienced.  She deliberately feigned not understanding me and skewing things negatively I was saying.  The big lie was once she understood I would be dealt with rationally but that wasn't true.  "I don''t understand" meant NO.

Decades ago I told my mother after being out west for five weeks visiting brothers that I would not see her the immediate weekend upon my arrival but the weekend after that. 

She became hysterical, character assassinated me to everyone in our mutual network that I had gone scarily crazy because I refused to ever see her again which I had not said at all.  Which shocked me. 

Her sobbing into the telephones of the significant people in my life and telling them either a blatant lie or an actual paranoid fear was too much for me. 

Plus, the last time I had dared to displease her so much, she treated me with such consistent contempt that I collapsed into clinical depression.  That was in my mid-20s.

I decided to wait out her temper tantrum.  After 10 years of estrangement from family and only rare letters from her whereupon if I responded as the adult woman I was, I was responded to with rage or silence, I got a note from a brother saying they thought she was dying in a CT hospital and would I like to come and say goodbye.

I went immediately.  She didn't die after that stroke.  I rejoined the family on the margins.  She and my dad pretended the decade of estrangement had never happened.  I recognized that affinity was all she was capable of. I kept a boundary.  I could feel the rest of the family wanting me to take on the bonds of being a constant enabler to my  mother again.  I avoided that trap but I embraced a sad weariness that has stayed with me always.  A sad permanent sense of surrender and loss.  Also a distrust in all relationships and insecurity about my own identity, from my mother's rigidity as well as the painful detachment and ignorance of my social network to the hell and actual reality I was going through with my mother, as well as with my father's alcoholism.

Intimacy is required for communication.  With my mother the best she could handle was "affinity" on her terms.

I wish I had known about BPD back then and applied it to her.  It would have meant maybe a less roller coaster existence for me.  Maybe I wouldn't have been so successfully terrorized and confused and crazymade from her dominating behavior.

When I challenged my mother, she didn't just go after our relationship, she immediately and dramatically upended my relationships with an entire network of people.  I made the choice to detach.  I didn't have the will or stomach to challenge her. I still felt tremendous pity for her even then and part of me was still protecting her.  As well as the factor of my newly acknowledged terror that she had inspired in me since I had been a toddler. 

Good luck.

Best,
Bethanny

Bethanny- the dynamics you described are similar to my relationship with my BPD mother. Knowing about BPD earlier would have helped me to navigate the situation better, but we only can do what we know at the time.

It's my mother's way or the highway too. She sees people as either on her side or not her side. The requirement for being in her favor is complete compliance with her wishes. There is no conflict resolution.

I also came to the conclusion that an intimate relationship with her is not possible, but as you describe "affinity" is as long as her needs and wishes are met and I don't have any expectations for anything different than what it is.

I also have the experience of challenging my mother who also then disrupted my relationship with others in her circle, including family members on her side of the family and my father.

My mother had absolute power in the family and we were terrified of her.  She controlled us through our fear of what she was capable of doing- destroying a toy, and later, a relationship. My main emotional attachment to her was because I was attached to my father, who is now deceased.


The only way I know to cope with this is to not want anything from her, or be close to anyone who is close to her. I have a cordial but detached relationship to the people in her circle. While I think affinity is the best she can do, it's also best for me to also maintain an emotional and personal boundary around her.


 

Notwendy,  I think we have communicated in the past.  I recognize your name and your gentle style of communication.

Appreciate what you are saying and nodded through your comment.

I had 5 weeks with an EPA therapist and despite my going through so many stories of extreme irrational and debilitating behaviors from my mother at various stages of my life, the therapist concluded at the end of the sessions that my mother and I were a "bad match" temperamentally.  I was gobsmacked.  The behavior I described from my mother was pathological.  Also, the counselor at times pointed out the stress on my mother in her life, as if I were not appreciative of her stress and motivation.  I wrote about this in a separate thread on here. My intense empathy for her stress as her daughter was what kept me locked in for so long playing the obsequious daughter she indicated was my permanent DUTY no matter how old I became.

It was great to read what you wrote and to feel validated. To have someone echo the profound nature of growing up in the thrall of someone with this serious disorder.  To be so vulnerable to their extreme emotional mood swings, and their need for control. 

I always blamed myself for being afraid of my mother when i let myself momentarily acknowledge that.  I thought there was something off with me. I even felt guilty and very confused by it.  Even though in reality I had had plenty of terrifying moments with her when we were alone. But then she would flip back into the "nice mommy" role unless i had especially peeved her, usually unwittingly, and the contempt and punishment continued on and on, inappropriately extended. 

I had to walk on a high tightrope without a net to keep that "nice mommy" present and to have good will to me. 

Not exactly unconditional love. 

I also tried to think that the attributions she bestowed on me as a child, that were actually manipulating my natural grandiosity to strain to please her, were evidence of her recognition of a specialness in me.  A rationalization I desperately clung to as I became self-hating for not being that perfect image she assumed and demanded I be.

To be the exceptional "good girl" who readily self-sacrificed to please my mommy to make her proud of me.  This was a trap that made me doubt my own true self and my own right to pleasure and satisfaction independent of my mother's being.  I was always second guessing what was expected of me from my mother. There was hell to pay when I didn't get it right, but again I fought to rationalize that my mother saw me as an exceptional human being and that is why she had those expectations. 

My people pleasing with others grew from that mode.  I was not allowed to express inconvenient feelings like anger or sadness or fear, so I naturally, or rather unnaturally, wore that mask around others.  Also fearing that if I made a human misstep with them I would be rejected or abandoned. 

I didn't realize I was useful for her own ego neediness with her network to have me so accommodating to her and to others. Also, I was to be the perfectly available mother to her when she needed attention.  I was also to be the obsequious and will-less child when she wanted to be in the mother role.  Infantilization switching off with parentification ... based upon her needs ... not about my own genuine developmental stage at the moment.

Scott Peck said it is evil to titsuck from and control the same person.  I know exactly what he was talking about.

I think I was scapegoated most by her, but the rest of the family lived in her thrall and when I broke through the prison of my denial, I could not get support from them since they were locked in their own degrees of denial.  A denial I had enabled with them, before I broke through.

My dad was an alcoholic.  He could be traumatizing.  I felt sorry for my mother and she played on that.  Since he disappointed her and wasn't there for her enough, it was my job to be accessible.  The only girl, the oldest.  I was also responsible for fixing him, getting him to stop drinking and making their marriage happier she made it clear.  That was a carrot of promise for me.  Once I accomplished that, only then I could have my own life. 

But of course I couldn't get him to stop drinking, especially when I was trying to do that for her sake, not even his. 

When I ultimately seriously crossed my mother, I saw how quickly she took on the role of my victim, the same way she played the victim before to my eyes with my father.  That was stunning to me.  How quick my role of rescuer got changed to me as her persecutor. And instead of conflict resolution with me, she reached out to others I was close to get them to control me for her, just as she had done with me with my father.

With all the secrecy I had grown up with and the horrors of fights I had witnessed, my mother felt no discretion in dragging as many people into a conflict with me without any intention of ever directly having to sort it out with me. I was dismayed since the alcoholic family demanded such thick secrecy.

I am so grateful to know about BPD.  After a long estrangement I came back to live on the edges of my primary family.  I realized my mother was not capable of communication. That she was histrionic and that the "tough love" that I learned about in the 12 step rooms did not work on someone with BPD.  At least not from someone like me to her.  I had been conditioned from such a young age to obey her out of fear. 

I accepted the "affinity" status of our relationship and did the best I could relating to her and the family.

It was frustrating the counselor last month couldn't begin to get it. Especially since I have a superior at work who had been triggering fear in me by being irrationally critical and disrespectful.  Very much like my mother would get despite the reality.

It is frustrating that siblings and others still can't begin to grasp the full nature of my mother's BPD. But I have finally sorted out the reality for myself.

It was like growing up and being tasered whenever I was enjoying my freedom as a human being but having taken the focus off of her and her needs, trying to discover my own uniqueness and strengths. To reach for joy.  To make mistakes.  To change and grow.  I was expected to stay on a leash, and focus on her life above my own.  My life was to be sacrificed to serve hers. I was to be the perfect her, it felt like.

And the horror that when I displeased her there was no reservoir of good will over the past investment of time and energy and love from me.  It was as if she saw me suddenly as an evil trickster who was betraying  her.  A seeming paranoia.

I rationalized that I pitied her for so many decades. I denied the degree of terror she inspired.  I blamed the stress of my dad's drinking for her irrational and cruel moments with me. Because of her pain from his drinking binges, she made it clear to me I was to always be available to help compensate for that.  I became more and more enmeshed in their conflicts the older I got.

I wish I had considered more her as a stressor for my dad's drinking.  But I can't balance out a judgment for either parent comparatively.  They were both traumatizing. I think she was jealous of my relationship with my father.  But I was so brainwashed to see him as the victimizer to her I lost the opportunity of developing a deeper relationship with him and he with me.  And when he was in his drunken altered state, he was clearly frightening and dangerous. But even sober, he often showed little empathy and sudden cruelty at times.  But he was always framed as the "problem" by my mother.  That was not fair.  She was so hyper-controlling.  She always had to be right.  Get her way.

Enthrallment to a BPD parent and to the quicksand of a parents' miserable marriage is like being a POW.  Generates complex-PTSD.  The complex part is that you are overwhelmed with the futility of ever exiting the entrapment from the continuing trauma. There is no escape.  There is chronic fear you will be seen as a betrayer and lose the "love" of the parent if you reach for your own needs and wants. Your natural will is stymied by the terrifying consequences of being rejected and abandoned by the parent who has inspired so much codepence in you.

Thanks for sharing and listening.  It helped!

Best,
Bethanny
 :heart:

bethanny and Notwendy,
Just wanted to say I completely relate to the this:
"When I challenged my mother, she didn't just go after our relationship, she immediately and dramatically upended my relationships with an entire network of people."

I found ways to mother myself.  I am now the person I wished she had been, caring, kind, empathatic, nurturing to me.  That was the way out, and in time I started to trust people, and now have a pretty cool relationship with my husband.  If my Mom tries to put her claws in him (we talk about this occasionally), or even just calls him behind my back, I told him, he needs to tell me immediately.  We are not playing those games with her.

She has taken most of the rest of my family support system away from me (my brothers and sisters are in so much competition with each other because of her, it's ridiculous), I won't let her get to my husband.
 :hug:

b

Although everyone's story is so different, I've started to see very sad patterns in them all. One pattern is the pwBPD will slander whoever the "black child" is to family members, friends, community, etc. Of all the things my mom has done over the past year, that is the action that hurts me the most. And I can't say that I fully understand why she's doing it. The logic just isn't there. She's telling everyone she knows (even gone so far as to call/write/Facebook message my good friends) how dangerous my life is and how much she's worried about me. Simultaneously, she has completely cut me out of her life. On no level does that make sense, and it ruins her credibility with the "caring mom" role. People are slowly catching on to the truth, and realizing that she's not acting logically or lovingly. If I've learned anything though, it's that people aren't blind. Eventually they'll catch on. And if they don't, those just aren't safe or healthy people to have in my life in a significant way. It's sad. I hate that my mom has fractured my life so much, but I am working on control the aspects that I can--namely, the people I welcome into my heart and home.

beatricex and Choosinghope.  I just lost a long response to both of you. Not sure what happened.  Darn.

I relate to what you both are saying so much.  b-"Complete compliance" is the perfect phrase. 

Triangulation was used by my mother.  For years she had scapegoated my alcoholic father and I was boxed in as her "rescuer".  She was determined that I never have my own independent adulthood.  I was naive in thinking once I fixed my father so he didn't drink, they would be happy, I could go on to my own life. Wow. What a trap.

It is unbelievable the lengths an unrecovered BPD parent will go to keep you in line.  There is no honor.  No respect.  It is wise of you to stay vigilant with your husband, b.  Such a willingness to poison one's image when the BPD is fighting even the most modest bid for freedom of an adult child to modestly assert her own will. To put her needs over her mother's even for a New York minute. 

After years of keeping family secrets re my Dad's alcoholism my mother had no discretion in character assassinating me to available others.  You are idealized or demonized.  Despite how irrational and unjust it is. 

My mother drove me to clinical depression in my twenties when I had inadvertently "betrayed" her according to  her.  Did not follow the rules that I didn't even know since I couldn't "mind read" her rules. It was crazymaking.  My emotional illness was like gasoline on a fire, a mother who was solicitous to her children's physical health, was irrationally sadistic and cruel over my symptoms of emotional disease -- "dis-ease".  I was still in too much denial to realize how much her behavior to me had caused my breakdown in the first place.

c - I appreciate what you are saying about the betraying manipulation of others.  When my mother became so unjustly and irrationally enraged before my estrangement and ended up calling everyone in our mutual social network (even people I knew she didn't like herself) sobbing that I had seemingly gone crazy and was being cruel to her, one of my frantic brothers pushed me to contact her.  Emphasized how worried she was about me and how dangerously upset she was.  I called her and there was no sobbing and caring directly to me, there were flames coming out of my end of the phone.  Annihilating anger. 

I think that was such a turning point for me.  Her willingness to destroy my relationships, to character assassinate me to get me back in line. Her unwillingness to do any conflict resolution.  It was impossible for her.  I thought with time she would settle down and get it.  But she didn't. 

Since I was conditioned to be terrified of her since a small child, the "tough love" I could exercise on her was limited as was my trust that I could push through all that contempt streaming out at me.  But I don't think "tough love" works on someone who's egotism or paranoia is so intense.  I honestly wonder which or maybe both.

After a 10-year estrangement with not only her but my family network, I participated in the margins of my family, a sadder but wiser girl as the song goes.  I realized that she was never going to be capable of relating to me as a fellow adult.  The cost of my escape was high in terms of years of mourning and confusion, but the cost of being psychologically enslaved by her would have been much worse.

"Affinity" not love and intimacy was the connection and had always been the deal.

Once as an adult approaching middle age I recognized I responded to her more out of terror than empathy, which I also genuinely had, and that I had to detach from her for sanity's sake. 

Scott Peck says it is evil to titsuck from and control the same person at the same time.  He got that right.

Thanks again.

Best,
Bethanny
 :heart:

Choosinghope- it's very sad and to me it's unthinkable to do something like that, but I see this pattern in families in different ways. Sometimes there are sad posts from parents whose child's BPD spouse has interfered with that relationship. Sometimes it's a situation like ours.

I did not expect that aspect of this. I was so attached to my father and assumed he cared about me too. I know he did, but yet, BPD mother controlled his relationship with me. She has also told her family members lies about me.  It puzzled me that when they heard these things about me, they didn't even reach out to me to ask if they were true- they just believed her. My mother lies constantly- the things she tells other people about me, she has completely made up.

When she does that, she swears them to secrecy and gives them some convincing reason to not tell me what she said or did and tells them to not discuss it with me. It's shocking to me how they just comply.

But I have heard about some of them, because occasionally someone does tell me.

One problem is that there is no way to correct this. If I clarify what she said, then they need to believe it's a lie. But they already believe her- and so there's really no effective way to change that- except to hope that in time,  they will see what is true for themselves.

Some of her family have now reached out to me to try to reconnect. I think they have seen through some of what she has told them. They are aware that there are issues between us but I have made it clear that I will not discuss her with them. I won't get into a triangle like that. I am cordial and pleasant around people in her circle but am also wary of them.

Notwendy

Can you give us a flavor of how these conversations went?

It seems important to you that triangles are avoided.  How did you figure that out?

Best,

FF

FF- trial and error, and a lot of personal work spanning several years.

At one point I started to have boundaries with my mother. She went into victim mode and rallied her "people" against me. I didn't know about the Karpman triangle at the time but learned about it and it helped explain the dynamics.

My first hint of what was said was when I learned some family members were discussing things my mother must have told them about me and none of them were true.

I was horrified, shocked, hurt and at a loss of what to do. If they believed that- there wasn't much I could say that they would believe. I got wind of some other things later through other people.

I did the only thing I knew to do and walked away from all of them and didn't speak to them for years. They didn't reach out to me either, she had told them not to. But these people were my family and I was very sad but didn't know what to do otherwise.

Ironically, I think my mother is behind them trying to reconcile. The resulting rift in the relationship is embarrasing to her because it doesn't go along with the "we are one big happy family" picture she wants to maintain so she's now trying to patch this, paint me white to them. The other part is that, I think they must have realized something by now because she's had a few behavioral slips in front of them. So one of them did reach out to me.

Now, I am on guard because- if these people think I am nuts, I don't want to reinforce that idea by being emotional with them. I also don't trust the reason they reached out to me- is it because she put them up to it? But I am cordial and polite, and said straight up to them. "I understand that you are aware there are issues between me and my mother, and I think it is best if we don't discuss her and just have the relationship between us". So I was quite direct about it and they seemed ok with that.

Firstly, I want to thank all of you for your support and advice. It felt very liberating standing up to my mother in a way I never had before. I don't think I could have done it without the support of all of you.

I relate to everything that you guys say about your relationships with your mothers and your families.

My sister started talking to me more after I worked things out with my mother.

I realized that my father had encouraged me to reach out to my mother because he couldn't deal with her drama. He said her drinking and mood had gotten much better since I had talked to her. He was having trouble dealing with it before.

I find myself slipping into old habits. I talk to her too much about personal things. I'm conscious of it now though and aware that I need to reign it in.

It's encouraging to hear that you guys have been able to stand up to your mothers and have been able to continue living your lives, even though it hasn't been easy. I hope to have the strength that all of you have had.

Thank you again.

Funnily enough, it was my father who told me about this psychologist. Hear is the link to the first video I watched: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&feature=share&v=R_jbRqNrAS8

It was only this summer, with the help of a therapist, that I realized that my bpdM was also a narcissist and the relationship between BPD and narcicisim. He has many videos about how to deal with a narcissist that I am currently watching and I find them very helpful. Hope the videos provide some help and reassurance to all of you.

Do you suspect your Father is much more aware of your Mom's dysfunction than you first believed.  Perhaps he has found his own pathway through it, with the help of psychologists?

Best,

FF

He doesn't like therapists. I told him about BPD and once he researched it he agreed. My bpdM is also an alcoholic and apparently she was drinking a lot before I talked to her. My dad didn't like having to deal with my mom's drama. That's why he wanted me to repair things with her.