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The timing of this couldn’t be worse. Christmas for a 7yo is such a magical time. I’ve managed to keep that spark alive, but his mom can’t help but blame me for this. I am following the rules set forth by the judge in the TRO so that neither one of us violates it. I won’t do anything to set her up to break it, and I won’t break it either. But this happening for Christmas makes it so much harder. Both times that she has talked to my son during the set forth time, she tells S that I’m being mean. She tells him that I’m just listening to my mom. She hasn’t ever apologized to him for screaming at him or throwing the remotes at him. She has told him both times that she will bring up gifts or that he and I can go to where she is so that he can get gifts and give her a hug. Setting me up to be the villain. When I can I record the calls and get video of her or the items she has brought. Her inability to follow the conditions are making this so hard on my son. If she would respect the order and just talk to him about how he’s doing it wouldn’t be so hard.

This is probably her way of trying to emotionally manipulate you into dropping the order- going through your son to get you to feel guilty. My ex did the same thing. He didn't outright try to physically defy the order (at first), instead, he played on my guilt about keeping him apart from our son to get me to go against the order. In his mind that would be easier than playing by the rules because he would be getting what he wanted quicker. He didn't want to go through courts and restrictions to visit with his son. And he also told our son that he wanted to see him but I would not let him, and also said that I was listening to friends and family who were convincing me to do this.

It really sucks, and especially at the holidays.

Good job recording these conversations and let your son's therapist know about the content of her interactions with him. It could be considered emotional abuse.

How specific is the RO about what is allowed during phone calls? If she is to refrain from any discussion of the RO during allowed calls, and she is speaking to your son about it anyway, she is violating the RO, and you can cut off the call.

Talk to your lawyer ASAP about what needs to be done.

That is exactly what it says. And I had to end the call because of it today. Which was very hard on my son. I know that if the tables were turned I would not dare do anything to violate the order. The recordings will back this up. She  also insists on talking to me. I respond only by saying that I won’t violate the order and had to hang up because she didn’t stop.

Definitely report this to your L and ask what else you should do to "report" the violations of the temp order.

Make sure you have extra digital copies of the proof.

Most likely wise to inform your child's therapist that you will be needing/paying for extra time so they can view the video and prep a letter to the court about the damage this kind of talk has on your son.

Best,

FF

I think it is a natural go-to strategy for them because they have maladaptive ways of getting their needs met. I also think they truly believe what they are saying. My ex, to this day three years later after a years-long drug binge and being thrown in jail for felony theft, called his mom a few weeks ago whining about how not fair it is that it was his birthday and his son's birthday (Dec 8 and Dec 7, respectively) and he wasn't getting to see him.

He simply always has refused to admit that his behavior is responsible for our marriage falling apart. He has always downplayed any of his abusive actions. Apparently, he truly believes that I am in the wrong for not letting him around his son unsupervised even after he caused serious physical injuries to me and endangered our son by smoking meth in the house.

Be aware that I made the mistake of letting the guilt get to me and I agreed to take my son to see him because of the pressure he put on me. This resulted in him using the visitation time to further emotionally abuse our son and me and ended up with him dong something to my vehicle so it wouldn't start and then assaulting me again.

You are doing the right thing by refusing to violate the order.

I think she has minimized her actions and truly believes you are doing this for no reason. Victim perspective. I also think it is a natural reaction for an emotionally immature person to cast blame elsewhere and try to be "rescued" by the children. If they can get the kids to see them as blameless victims and the other parent as the persecutor, it strengthens their defense against shame- which can feel like death to a disordered person.

It's unlikely that she is "thinking it through" or "plotting".


You also might substitute "feel" for "believe" as in they "feel it is true".

 


And also doing the right thing by recording and monitoring every moment of her communications.

You never know when your L will need "ammunition" to prove different things.

Best,

FF

Yes, that's more what I was trying to say.  Feelings are facts to them so if they feel like victims, it feels true.

FF and Redeemed, what you both are saying makes sense, as it always does. S is starting to show his frustrations with the situation. Poor guy doesn’t understand why he can’t see her, well I think he understands, but he misses her. Plus he knows that she has tons of Xmas gifts for him. In some ways, it’s probably the thought of the gifts that is making it harder for him, he brings that up more than the desire to see her. Thankfully he’s not misbehaving, just getting frustrated quicker than normal  when toys aren’t working or when we aren’t understanding what he’s trying to say or do. We have had plenty of fun and laughs today.

I would encourage you to maximize your sons sleep over the next week or so.  Perhaps also be deliberate about setting up situations where he can successfully play or do things

When do you think the first official supervised visitation will be set up?

Best,

FF

This is a time to strengthen connection with your son. In those moments, when he is frustrated because the toy isn't working, or he's sad because he can't see his mom, try helping him name those feelings- without offering statements such as "I know your mom really loves you" or "mommy is just not herself/is sick right now/is whatever."

You're doing good by not badmouthing her. Just make sure you don't make excuses for her, either. It's better just to focus on how your son feels and validate- "you feel sad/mad/frustrated/whatever. I'm so sorry you're feeling that way."

Somewhere on this board someone (LnL?) has recommended a book called I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better. It's about effective parenting strategies for raising emotionally resilient children without stepping into the "fixer" role (which we naturally want to do as parents).

Good advice FF. I’ve been maintaining a regular bed time since we’ve been staying with my mom.

The hearing is scheduled for Tuesday morning, so we’ll find out then what we can do. There’s no other indication when visits will be.

Redeemed, I tell my son that feeling emotions are ok, no matter what. No emotion is bad. I also tell him that it’s important to remember that even though it’s ok to feel angry or sad, it’s not ok to let those emotions move is to be mean or hurtful. This approach was ok with his therapist.

Excellent approach...trust your T.

On Tuesday, be very prepared to have your L address the inappropriate conversations.I

Had there been any thought put into whether your E needs a dual-diagnosis treatment plan. i.e. that there are drug/alcohol issues in addition to the PD, plus the trauma of the accident?

This is so complicated, and so sad. My heart hurts for you.

RW - I am just catching up on this thread now and wanted to let you know that I see an awesome, strong Dad standing up for his son's and his own right to be treated well.  Everyday we all earn our right to have good relationships, and RWw will have to choose how she wants to move forward.  Based on the incident with the police, she seems to have the ability to cooperate.  You should expect nothing less from her towards yourself and your son.  If she can't cooperate - as Waddams and FD said - don't stop, keep that pedal to the metal and create a better life for the two of you.

Don't doubt yourself for a second.  You didn't create this, and you're not responsible for her behavior.  She chooses her behavior, you can't make it better.  You're choosing your behavior, and you're trying to make the holidays the best you can for your son.  I think you're doing a fantastic job in the midst of a difficult situation.  Keep going brother, we're on your side.

I am thinking more and more that an extensive (time) and intensive (focused work) dual-diagnosis program  is what your W needs. She needs a detox period, and she needs DBT work with a caring yet firm team that can help her work through her trauma to a place of accountability.

It's understandable to be hurt by her villain set-up, especially given all that you sacrificed for S7's safety (and your own).

This type of interaction will replay in a thousand million ways so it's good to get ahead of the bus.

Your wife is going to engage in this new kind of splitting behavior to co-opt S7's reality so it buttresses her own world view (mom is good/victim and dad is bad/villain) and it will be pretty predictable, likely unconscious, and almost certainly unrelenting.

Bill Eddy has a companion book to Splitting called Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Resilient Children that's excellent (imo the nuts and bolts stuff starts chapter 2).

As the reasonable parent you kind of need to deconstruct the high-conflict family dynamic so that you understand how the "culture of blame" has shaped the way your son handles conflict internally (getting ready to apply these lessons both internally and externally in peer relationships).

The three legs of Eddy's approach to counter the splitting behaviors vying for your son's soul: flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behaviors.

You can model these responses to the nail-biter word bombs your addicted/afflicted ex will toss.

This way you can model emotional resilience with S7 whether it's with mom on the phone or watching a show on TV or handling a beef with a friend.

"Why doesn't mom drop your gifts off here? Seems pretty simple to me."

"How about this. I won't open my presents until you get to open yours from mom. It's going to be soo hard. We'll work through this together."

I agree! I don’t know if the court would mandate that based on my suspicion with no proof. There’s the added difficulty of buy-in. If RWw doesn’t open herself up to the therapy, it will never take hold. Unfortunately that’s been her pattern. Then again the stakes have never been higher.

LovedandLearned, I  like Bill Eddy. I will definitely look for that book.

Tomorrow is the hearing to find out if the judge will grant a long term protective order. I’ve been feeling very anxious today. Who knows what RWw will try to throw at me. Thankfully I have a good attorney that I have faith will be able to handle things well. We will both have about 15 minutes to present our sides. I’ll give an update tomorrow.

I'm pretty sure that Forever Dad made the point in another one of your threads that you should say the bare minimum.

Practice pausing and looking at your attorney for signals or to give him a chance to object.

Hopefully you guys can do a "talk through" prior to the hearing.

Do you know if she will be represented? 

Do you have proof (police report or other proof) of the incident in which your wife forced her way into your home.

What you want to avoid is "RWw did x"...then she says "no i didn't".  Much better to be able to pull out an independent reference in trial, that putting things on hold to sort out the truth.


Best,

FF

FF I spoke with my L tonight about those very things. As far as I know RWw is representing herself (NPD trait/overconfidence?). It will be done via webcam due to COVID.
I have an audio recording of the entire incident, which has been entered into evidence. We are sorted 30 minutes for the entire hearing, so it will fly by.
I will prep some notes for myself tonight and try to get a good nights sleep. We get started at 8:45 AM.

I think you're in excellent shape if you have the audio of that incident entered into evidence.  Top that off with you having legal representation and she does not, that really handicaps her.  There is a lot of nuance in legal language and the court process, her going into this hearing without a lawyer is not wise.

Hopefully you can get some sleep.  I know what the night before feels like, just breathe and know everything will be alright.

The hearing was this morning. RWw thought it was tomorrow and wasn’t on the zoom until they called her. Because of this she was not prepared at all. She became emotional I suspect due to the prospect of being ruled against. The judge was kind and rescheduled for next Thursday. The judge was getting irritated because RWw kept interrupting. She indicated that she is in the process of obtaining an attorney. The firm she named, according to my attorney, has a reputation of not being very good. My L thinks that will help us.
Due to the extension the judge issued a slightly revised TPO. She was reduced to two calls a week with our son and we are to set up supervised visitations through the state. Due to COVID, these visitations will be via zoom for the time being.

She may be losing time and orientation due to alcohol/drug use. If she can't pull herself together to get a lawyer and appear on time next Thursday, make sure your lawyer includes this behavior in your petition. It indicates her unreliability when planning future visitation.

Is your wife likely to admit to an attorney that she has a drug problem?

As hard as it is, RW, I want to validate your choice to protect your son and yourself.  |iiii

In case you hadn’t seen this response to Spam from stolencrumbs, I thought I’d post it on your thread. All three of you are dealing with very similar issues.

I doubt if she will admit that she has a drug problem. She probably thinks she has it under control. I think she’s in denial about the gravity of what she did when she threw two remotes at my son and I. And now she’s just blaming me and trying to get her son back.
Thankfully by doing things this way I can stand behind the law and the truth. Maintaining that POV keeps my conscience clear and I don’t have to feel bad that she is finally facing consequences for her actions.

Cat, thanks for sharing that post from stolencrumbs.

Even though I’m just a little over a week in, and feeling anxiety over the unknowns, I can’t help but feel fantastic about the fact that it has been a week free of senseless arguments and emotional blackmail. For the most part. She’s tried. But thanks to the PO and my L, all these darts are just bouncing off. In fact I’m picking up her darts and, without throwing them back, I will use them against her.

What did your lawyer think about the trespassing issue and lease/eviction issue for your Mom?


Best,

FF

It’s something that we probably won’t be able to work into the TPO hearing. But it will be part of the divorce.

This may gain traction.

Family law courts like it when addicts admit to the addiction because then they can focus on solutions.

My ex would tell the judge he wasn't an addict because he quit 18 times and only started drinking/using when he wanted to...

The self rationalizations of an addict are pretty interesting when you hear them stated out loud.


In many states, using an object to harm someone is what escalates the offense.

If she gets a good L, she'll be encouraged to take responsibility and admit she has a problem with drugs/rage. She sees the error of her ways and wants to get into treatment and become a better mom.

That probably won't go over well with RWw so she'll either get rid of her attorney, represent herself, shop for other attorneys, or agree to say x in front of the judge and then in an outburst say y.

You may find that obstruction and stonewalling are the norm, although that can work in your favor if you start with something favorable that protects your son (like you have with the PO).

One tactic that can also work well with family law court is to structure your request as a reasonable solution that places responsibility on RWw. "

RWw will agree to drug testing at ______clinic by day/date, performed by Dr. ________. And she will agree to sign up for Parenting Class and Anger Management Class at _____ place by day/date. After completion of both we can reconvene and discuss things going forward."

That way you have in place what you need while she tries to pull herself together and any changes are based on her ability to get well.

Lawyers don't do a great job at closing the loopholes because those loopholes are financially beneficial. There is no pain for them if you have to come back again and again. So better to structure things so that RWw has clear and plain actions she must accomplish before xyz can happen. That closes a loophole and saves you money.

For example, a judge could say, "Let's reconvene in 60 days" which ok, sure. But if this repeats over and over, you're just back in court in a sort of arbitrary hopeful way that costs you money for things RWw has set into motion.

Better to communicate the consequences for actions, both good and bad, in the legal language. Fewer surprises that way and you get more traction in driving this thing than the lawyer who has no problem going back to court.

This is something I will definitely pursue.

I must say that this is starting to feel more and more right. The fact that it’s been two weeks that I haven’t had to hear a laundry list of my faults (many of which are made up) feels really good. I’ve been much more patient with my son, which is important now more than ever.

I spent some time this afternoon visiting with my neighbors. I grew up with their kids, and have always been considered part of their family. It was nice to hear confirmation of what I knew they would say. They weren’t surprised that things had gotten to this point. They had gotten glimpses of RWw’s anger over the years. They were very supportive of my decisions and shared some of the very similar events in their son’s first marriage.

I’ve been transcribing the recordings I made of RWw and our son talking during their court appointed calls. These are going to be evidence for the hearing next week. Anyway, it’s been hard but reaffirmed to hear these things again.

What kind of things does she say in those meetings, that you think will be helpful for you?

Best,

FF

I was curious about the same thing.

Are you talking about her promises to bring gifts or suggestions that you and S can meet her so he can get his gifts?

To me, that reads like her trying to use your son to manipulate you into breaking the RO and the court may see it that way, too, though whether they will act on it is a different story.

However, if she has supervised visits and tries that during them, the supervisor may intervene in that type of communication or report it to the court.

I made a log of 31 separate violations of the TPO in the first week. My L advised me on this process, so I’m not flying blind. The list consists of several calls to my phone, my moms phone, voicemails, text messages, three times she broke the 100yd limit (twice to leave packages), during the three calls with our son, and the morning she forced way past my mom into the house. During the calls with my son she ranged from promising to get gifts to him, either by bringing them up, leaving them outside her house, or even telling him we could go for them so she could give him a hug. She also couldn’t help from telling him that I was being mean, stupid, acting dumb, doing what my mom said, called me lazy and selfish, told him it wasn’t right that he was having to ask me for his gifts.
I didn’t bother to count each individual thing in the phone calls. My list was made up of 31 separate violations, including the three calls. This should compel the judge to grant the PO due to her blatant disregard for the restrictions set forth in the TPO.
Based on what she tried to say during the initial hearing last week, before the judge muted her, I think she’s going to try to contest my accusation in my statement that I fear she’s using again. She also started to accuse me of tampering with her internet.

Thankfully the judge had already indicated that we are to start the process for the supervised visits. It seems that this may be a slow process. 

Sounds like you are in professional hands and I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. 

So transcripts go in and also you send in the recording or is the recording just available if for some reason the transcripts are challenged.

Also, can you/have you had a follow up conversation about the trespassing issue/no trespassing letter from your Mom to your pwBPD? 

From where I sit it is certainly more minor that the TPO/PO, yet I think it should be explicitly discussed with your L (or perhaps he may not be able to advise your Mom).  Because if she is the property owner, technically the trespass issue is her thing and not yours.

Hopefully your L is able to understand that these issues...while separate...are "interdependent" and need to be considered together to provide a unified front to the court.

In a related but longer term issue...the status of your wife staying in your Mom's trailer on your Mom's property.

When is the hearing again?   

How is your self care?  What are you doing to stay strong?

Best,

FF

We are submitting the recordings and transcripts as part of the evidence, 31 individual pieces. We’re only going to have 30 minutes for the hearing, unless something changes. Our respective attorneys are trying to work out some visitations with a neutral 3rd party. This may delay the hearing yet again. It also appears RWw is attempting to file a counter PO claiming she was abused by me. This now creates a possibility that the judge will throw out both orders, but that remains to be seen.

Tomorrow morning we are to have an expedited priority consultation. From what I understand (but I am very uncertain about this) this is to determine some level of psychological fitness as parents. But I’m really not sure. I’ll learn more this evening. My attorney pushed for this and feels it will benefit me. She basically told me to prepare for whatever RWw my try to accuse me of. We’re planning on discussing it later.

Regarding the trespassing, as of now she is permitted to be in our home. This will remain unchanged for now. However it will be a topic for the divorce settlement.

As for my mental health and self care, I’m doing my best to stay positive and not dwell on the negative unknowns related to all of this. Work started back up again yesterday and I’ve been taking care of some errands. This helps me to keep distracted during parts of the day. But the time I’ve been free from the constant barrage of negativity and fearing more emotional attacks is so freeing in itself. That is probably the single biggest factor in feeling good over the last few weeks.

Is it your home or your Mom's home?

I'm really less concern about her being in there, than being in your Mom's home where you and your child are and knocking your Mom over (somehow pushing past) to get inside, when the owner of the home explicitly said she was unwelcome.

That is a legal issue between the homeowner and the  trespasser.

That being said courts often look at these things as one issue.

Plus, with the possibility that both POs get thrown out, a no trespassing letter and perhaps a charge filed with the magistrate by your Mom..could potentially matter.

All this being said, my goal is to get you to discuss this with your attorney.

I will say that she seems very proactive on the issues directly relating to you.   I'm a fan of what I have seen so far.

Best,

FF

In my jurisdiction a TPO has to be supported by evidence, hopefully it's the same in yours.  My ex tried to get one (we think) but for some weird reason just sent a fake one to my family instead of filing for one.  My lawyer guessed that she tried to get her lawyer to file one but had nothing to back it up so her lawyer wouldn't.  I read what was in it, it was full of some really crazy stuff that painted me as a stalker and abuser.  Of course none of it was true.

My point being that I think you're still on solid ground with the PO.  If you have evidence the courts will hopefully still take yours seriously, even if another TPO is attempted that is backed up by nothing.

Courts are not surprised when there is conflict and heightened tensions.  That's why people can file for protection orders.  Most such protection orders are temporary.

I had two against my then-spouse in two different courts.  She had one against me.  After a few continuances - hearings - they were dismissed.  No, actually she filed another too.  It was settled that we would stay apart for several months except for child exchanges.  I concluded court figured it was not serious enough to merit longer action.

Your case may be more actionable than mine.  Time will tell what the court decides.  But make your case well.  You are in a strong position now, stronger than most fathers start, to get the best parenting order possible.  If you let it slip though your fingers now, it will be hard to regain it later.

How your son was impacted and how his future looks may have more impact on the court than how she hurt or behaved toward you.  You're an adult, court will be inclined to show more concern for a defenseless child.

Remember that you're not there to be mean.  On the other hand, don't think that if you're overly-fair that it will gain points with the court, there is a truism here...

The person who is behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the person behaving well seldom gets credit.

Instead of a no trespassing notice,  you might consider asking your mother to consider filing her own RO. Forcible entry into an elderly women's home should be grounds for that.

And...make sure you read your state statute about no trespassing. 

I have lived in some states where there was a dramatic difference in level of misdemeanor offense if a formal notice was given and then blown off.

Then another level of offense is property was also marked.

The an another level if formal notice was given AND property marked.

I'm aware that there are states where those details don't matter.

Please read yours and come to a plain English interpretation.  Then have your lawyer confirm your interpretation.

Oh...and there was yet another level of trespass for entering a building such as an open garage, then another for entering a building with a door.

Then I think if the door was locked, perhaps that is when it became "breaking and entering".

So...lots of nuance that may or may not matter.

Best,

FF

FF I think I see what you’re getting at. Since it was my moms home where RWw pushed her way in, and my S and I were in the house at the time (and still are) I see the importance of the trespassing issue. As long as we’re here, the PO provides that protection. As far as pressing charges, that probably won’t happen considering the police were called when that happened and did nothing.

I'm 99% positive that if you had insisted the police do something they would have refused, insisting instead you file with the magistrate, then the police would act on what the magistrate says.  

In my county the only time I'm aware of police acting is when a police (or deputy) had personally given a no trespassing order and a person was blowing that off in the presence of an officer.  Other than that, people are told to take it to the magistrate.

As to you "getting it".  

You are starting to see it.

Trespass and a PO are different legal matters.

You have no standing on the trespass issue. (since you don't own or control the property)

Your Mom has no standing on the PO issue.

Your thread has been on my mind for a while and especially something that I Am Redeemed said...and also something ForeverDad said.

1.  FD first:  You are in a good position, don't be nice...don't gift away your power.

2.  IAR:  Your wife physically pushed her way over, past, through a smaller elderly person that clearly said she was not welcome in her home.  (yes I have always realized this, yet there was something about the way she said it..or I read it)

It's one thing to enter those details into the court record as "evidence" that may or may not influence another matter.

It's an entirely different thing to enter and get a result (say guilty verdict on trespassing).

So it's two years from now and the court is evaluating the behavior of two parties.

1.  He testifies she was mean to his Mom..Mom testifies to this as well.

compared to

2.  A court of law found her guilty of a class xx misdemeanor.

Note..there is no guarantee of a guilty result, but if the matter is not pursued at all...you are guaranteed to NOT get a guilty result.

Your L may have other opinions on this matter, I'm sure he can advise and explain.

Best,

FF

Thanks FF. I will talk to my L about this for sure.

This morning I was interviewed by a representative of the courts in what ISS called a priority consultation. This rep acts as the eyes and ears of the judge. He spoke to me then my wife, then with me again. The main takeaways were the addiction needs to be addressed, be it through proving that there is none through testing, or through a treatment program. Next was addressing the violence and anger. If the former persists then the latter will as well, regardless of what may be underlying. He is likely to recommend supervised visitations. His role was strictly in regards to the safety and security of our son. He surmised that my motives were in this context as well, and not an effort to spite my wife or deny her the right to continue as a mother to our son.

That sounds like good news!

My own experience with SD's uBPDmom trespassing at our house.  I wrote mom a letter, signed by H and I (the homeowners) that she was not welcome on our property and we would call the police and have her arrested for trespassing if she came back.  She brought a cop with her at the next child exchange.  Cop said they would not arrest her for being on the same property as her kid (with no restraining orders) BUT they would escort her from the property if I called and she refused to leave.

The police assumption was that mom would be there for a well check of her kid, that mom could ask the police to check on the kid, and that if mom did this multiple times with nothing actually wrong with the kid, "well, then, we'll know where the problem really is".

Cop did not write up this conversation - I called the precinct and tried to get notes for court :( 

This is exactly what I would expect.

This also gives me an idea about how RW might go about deciding (and his L deciding) if the trespass charge is worth pushing.

Go get copies of the police report from all the incidents so far.

If it is clear in those reports that RWwife pushed her way over a small elderly lady to get into the house, then I'm much less interested in pursuing the trespass issue.

However, if there are no details there.  Then I would be much MORE interested in RW elderly Mom pushing for the magistrate to file a charge, even if it kinda goes sidways or nowhere.

Many times a magistrate will "put in on hold" and say something like, "If I don't see you back here for a year...I'll put this charge in the round file."

Best,

FF