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Hey, I'm having a hard time tonight. Had a couple of truly traumatic conversations in the last week, and I feel numb and don't want to think of what tomorrow will bring. I'm not suicidal but called the hotline just to have someone to talk to... but was on hold, so gave up. So, here I am. Even with helping other people here.

Hey Kells-

What’s going on?  How can I help?

Warmly,
gems

thank you for being here.

DH and I had marriage counseling on Monday, and I let a lot out about how angry I was that it seemed like he was ignoring/not paying attention to/not valuing SD12. Nothing overt, but just stuff that seemed pointless and antagonistic. Our MC noted that we deal with processing stuff about the kid conflict differently -- I just want to "fix it and move on" and DH needs to process internally and not talk about it in the moment. MC suggested I ask DH if he is up for talking, and if not, that he suggest a time.

So, right after MC, DH brought some stuff up, and I started to freeze, but then thought I should use the tools, so I asked DH when a good time was for me to share more about the anger I struggle with. He said "right now" but even then I felt like I had a "radar" sense that it wasn't, but I "wanted to do what I was supposed to" and be "good" and use the tools, so I let it all out. He was angry and we escalated to him mocking me and swearing. I've been feeling numb and jumpy and have a tic since then.

The kids were supposed to be with us this weekend, but right when I got home, SD12 said she was "stressed out" and didn't think she was going to sleep well here, and wanted to go back to Mom's. DH started by telling her that she needed to be here so we could spend time together, and again it escalated to SD12 saying she'd walk back to Mom's. I felt like I couldn't leave that conversation (it was in front of SD14 as well) and I tried to be validating and empathetic but I felt so numb again.

DH took SD12 back to Mom's so it's just him and me and SD14 here. She is doing OK-ish but when DH got back, she had this whole conversation with him about how he wasn't listening to SD12 (it's true, he wasn't), and then DH was telling SD14 about his fears that they wouldn't want to spend time here, and while that wasn't as heightened as the other conversations, once again it was tense.

We are supposed to pick up SD12 tomorrow morning and I just don't know what I can handle. I am not suicidal but I am having those feelings of "wanting to not be here".

I feel like I "have to" be on DH's side to support his time with the kids, while at the same time I feel traumatized by how our conversation went on Monday and we haven't talked about it.

I think many of us have experienced being overwhelmed by our feelings by trying to do what is best for our family while taking care of ourselves. You are a wonderful stepmom and certainly are doing everything to help. My therapist suggested I focus on observing my feelings instead of the actions and feelings of others when I feel  overwhelmed, and it has really helped. Hope you are feeling better soon.

I am so so sorry that your H could not hear your frustration without him lashing out and trying to make you feel “less than”.  My take is that when people use those demeaning methods as their “go -to”, it’s because they KNOW their actions and behaviors have been wrong.  And this time your DH does not seem to know how to apologize without making himself look worse than he already has...

I do understand the difficult position of being a stepmom, Kells.  I had three s-kids for the 19 years of my marriage.  At times it is exactly like walking a tightrope.  You are suspended between doing right by the children, and dealing with the challenges of adults who potentially cannot stand one another, but resent YOUR existence.  Yet the kids love you and look to you for comfort and guidance.

I don’t know whether your H has behaved like this in the past.  I’m hoping this is a one off...  and I’m sure you’re still feeling the after affects.  Sadly you cannot change what happened.  What you CAN do (and are ALLOWED to do) in the future, is to listen to your very keen radar; and not engage just because your DH says he is ready at any given time.  You will still be “good”.  There are no rules for what you are “supposed” to do and when.  Allow yourself some time to process... please give yourself the compassion and patience... just like you are “supposed” to grant your H time to process.

As for tomorrow and picking up your SD12... I can’t remember which member addressed something similar to this (maybe Livednlearned?)... but her advice and thoughts were REALLY wise.  She said something like... she’d take a measure of sorts of her well of strength each morning and figure out what she had to give (and what she didn’t) and she’d go with that.

Kells - you’ve had a truly hard, emotional week.  So perhaps in the morning, before picking up SD12, you have a quiet cup of coffee /tea and listen to music you love... or take a peaceful walk.  Breathe... something for you alone.  If you are feeling a bit fragile, know that and give less.  Respect where YOU are.  If your well of strength is more full, then give more during the day.

Either way, please try to keep things light for yourself.  And then when you’re ready (when kids are absent and you feel stronger), address your H’s reaction and unkind behavior.  But try NOT to allow his shortcomings to ruin your weekend.  Hard, I know.

Warmly,
Gems

The night when DH and I argued, he went for a long walk afterwards and be did apologize when he got back. He can get activated when we talk about kid stuff but this was farther than usual.

As much as I tell other people here to do self care, it's hard to take that advice. Mostly I just want to shut down and survive the next two days. I have a volunteer thing today that SD12 and I do together, and I guess if she wants to talk about stuff I'll listen, but really I just want to keep it superficial.

I do feel a lot of compassion for DH because the narrative about him from the kids' mom has always been, even when they were married, that he was the problem. So I don't want to do stuff that says to DH "you're the problem here" but lately it has been hard to watch and be there when he's interacting with sd12 in such a JADE-y way. The options seem like "don't get involved, and watch him shoot himself in the foot and then hear him wonder to me why things are bad" or "call him out on JADEing and he feels like he's the problem and I'm just blaming him and not owning my part".

I'm on my little phone and I guess I'll wrap up now, thumb typing is hard. But yeah, overall what I feel up for is surviving, just being numb and getting through it, and that's about all.

Kells- you are a great support to people here, to your H and also your step daughters. I think you might need some of that support as well.

You surely were a breath of fresh air to your H when he had just come out of a BPD relationship where likely he didn't feel he was supported much by his ex wife and you seem to be just the opposite. And here is my warning about looking for the opposite. The opposite of what you don't want might also come with it's own issues. One thing I am wondering is- are you doing too much? Where at one point he didn't have enough and took on too much himself, are you now carrying too much of the weight of the parenting here and is this resulting in the anger you expressed in the counseling session? I don't think one can do "too much" when it comes to looking out for the kids' best interest, but also if you are doing too much in the parenting relationship with your H, you are also going to feel unsupported and resentful.

I think it's great that the two of you are well aware of marriage and relationship pitfalls and are in counseling together and also I think what you two have achieved is way better than the relationship your H had with his BPD ex. However, better may not be without issues at all. I think this parallels my situation a bit in that I certainly didn't choose someone who acted like my BPD mother. However, that didn't ensure that my relationship was not without it's own issues and I didn't recognize the less obvious patterns that could create an unhappy situation for me. I observed that my BPD mother didn't contribute to the tasks of running a family or raising children much. I didn't want to be like her and not do my part. But I was not as aware of the possibility of doing too much, and the resulting feelings of resentment and emotional burn out from that.

Your H was in a severely dysfunctional marriage and by contrast your marriage is much better but that doesn't mean there won't be any issues and he might not recognize the more subtle ones between you and not be the best at managing them since he had to deal with much worse. In this case, if you are overfunctioning, you may need to take the lead on changing this- and it may turn out for the better for both of you. If you take care of your tendency to overfunction, maybe he will be able to step up a bit if he isn't already.

Unfortunately you have also had to deal with the BPD drama caused by the girls' mother and they are so lucky to have you as a step parents as you do so much for them, but also can you find some more time for self care?

He sounds doubled down.

This may not apply to your situation and it's hard to write about...

But I wonder if he feels guilt about having/wanting his kids. One time, H and I were having what sounds like a similar argument and when we laid down our defenses (much later) we both admitted the worst thing to each other: We don't like our kids. We wonder about our lives without them. We wonder what was the point. I can share that here because I know I love my kid, and like him. I also know that sometimes I want to say the taboo thing and get it out of my system. If something happened to my son, I would be devastated. I honestly can't imagine how I would go on. H feels the same way about his kids.

Even so, it's also true that they are ungrateful and ignorant about the sacrifices we make and how hard we work, and what we went through to protect them. They're the kids, and even at 19, 21, 23, and 26 they are still kids. A lot of times we feel treated like pieces of s#*t. Sometimes I watch these historical shows where the kids are basically independent at 13 and I wonder how did we end up with these needy, dependent young adults.

I don't know if that's where your H is at but I wonder if he resents his kids just a little bit given how much chronic stress they represent.

It might be easier to spray some of that resentment outward to the safest person (without understanding what it is that he's spraying and why), which is you. The triangles in your step dynamics with the other parents are dizzying. Maybe H has no margin he can tolerate when it comes to peoplel taking "sides," and perceiving which one everyone is on. BPD dynamics introduce (or stoke the flames of) intense competition that can be hard to ignore. Inferior, superior; win, lose; one-up, one-down; right, wrong. It's exhausting.


Superficial can be a form of self-care for us. I love me some superficial when I need to preserve stores for myself.  *)

Some days I think it's a miracle H and I are together given our histories with BPD in both family of origin and ex marriages. Not to mention the step dynamics with SD23. We have essentially come to peace that I keep things shallow when it comes to parenting his kids. It goes beyond liking or not liking them and vice versa. It feels more like radical acceptance that I'm an outsider here. Weirdly, after years with so much skin in the game, it feels freeing. Especially after my initial instinct, which was to rescue those kids and be the mom they never had.

I know you guys have different dynamics so maybe superficial isn't sustainable for now. At the very least, maybe it's ok to be superficial or numb when you need to be and might even open some space up for other things to fill the void.


I've been on the other side of this lately, where you describe H is at. For me, it's tables turned  :(

I'm usually the one pointing out what's breaking in H's dynamics with his kids.

H said some hard things to hear and it took a second for me to stand down and take in what he was saying (about S19). And by a second I mean, like, months. Honestly, I think it had to escalate in order for me to hear what H was saying. I'm a full-blown mama bear when it comes to S19 and that dynamic has to change, and H saw that before I could. For years (so it built up).

It's one of those those things in a close relationship where someone sees up-close how you're making a mess. And points it out. When you aren't ready to make the change for whatever emotional reasons.


Bessel van der Kolk talks about how humans are species who talk ourselves out of handling trauma in our bodies. Trauma can be as simple as a hard situation we are powerless to fix.

That's why I think saying taboo things helped H and I during a particularly bad patch, which every now and then we are able to arrive at together, without judging each other. It kind of helped release some of the stuck-ness we feel about being parents to these kids, the unconditional love stuff that sometimes does feel conditional.

Anyway, I hope you get some feeling back when you feel ready for them.

I am always amazed how tomorrow can be so different from today when it comes to how much I feel ready to handle.

As seriously as I take my self care, I seem to have no control over these other variables that determine whether I'm ready to tackle whatever big is going on.

Like, maybe H will sense you shutting down and he'll feel safe to take a tentative, apologetic step forward. Maybe you'll do something that isn't "following the rules" or being "good" and it will release some of this pressure that builds in our families.

I think it's family systems theory that talks about how a family is like a connected nervous system with each node reacting and responding to the others, nothing happening in isolation, a lot of it non-verbal.

Take whatever you need for yourself and see if the rest of the pack picks up on the signals  :hug:

I'm a guy so please allow me to take another angle.  It's a story I've related over the years.  Back in my twenties and single I started to research my ancestry.  Until then all I knew were my parents and grandparents, going back.  Soon I was the defacto family genealogist.  I found out that my g-g-grandfather had printed two booklets shortly before the Great War, over 100 years ago, one on his family history and one on his wife's family history.  There were pages and pages of names, dates and places.  But I still continued researching since that covered only two branches of my family.

This was the 1980s and everything was on microfilm or required a visit to extended relatives, the National Archives (military records and pensions), county courthouses and cemeteries.  Lo and behold, one day I discovered his father, a widower twice over, married in a neighboring state.  And he had a half-sister!  Why wasn't it in his family's booklet?

Years later I made contact with the Jones descendants.  They said there was a land or inheritance feud when he was widowed a third time.  I concluded their side of the family didn't like how the husband got the wife's estate?  But today, over 140 years later, nobody is aware of their visceral hurts.  All I know today is that we missed out on having documentation in the family history of his third marriage, his daughter, her own marriage and children.

You're hurting.  Your hurt is real.  But as time passes you'll assimilate it and it will hurt less.  Your relationship has been dinged, just how much and for how long is up to you.  Gift yourself time to digest it, hopefully without too much indigestion.

 :hug: :hug: :hug:

I may have read your sentence wrong...but I will argue that sometimes shutting down is self care.

I do that often in the evening, because there are times you just need to let that day go...get a good nights sleep and then take on a new day fresh.

Hang in there!

Best,

FF

Thank you, I'm still here and made it through today. I'm sitting alone outside in the truck, I guess that's self care, lol. If I write much more I think I'll cry so I'll save the long stuff for Sunday night or Monday when the kids are gone.

It's been mostly fine today. We'll see how sd12 does tonight. If you hear from me again tonight it will probably be if she loses it again.

Thank you all for being here for me.

I am holding you in my heart tonight, dear Kells.

The teen years can be tough, even with well behaved kids. Yes, we love our kids but we may not enjoy all aspects of the teen age year. I know mine had me in tears at times- and they are good kids thankfully but the hormones and teen emotions were challenging.

This was also a tough time due to my experience as a teen with a BPD mother. I truly resented her at the time. So when my kids got angry at limits ( "you can not go out with your friends until you do your homework") I feared they would feel the same way about me. But I am a different parent and thankfully they don't.

I also feared that they might have BPD. Sometimes they acted like it at times but thankfully they don't have BPD.  But the difference is that teenagers might be overwhelmed with fluctuating hormones and emotions at their age- then they grow up. Emotional lability at times is a normal for a teenager.

One reason your H may be having difficulty with his teen age daughters is that their behavior at times could feel to him like BPD behavior and due to his issues with his ex, he may find this even triggering or not know how to deal with it. Yes, he loves them but if their behavior in the moment is reminding him of his ex, he may be reacting as if they were his ex.

And sometimes he may just have had enough of it. When I was a teen, if I was upset about something, my father would get angry and tell me to stop. If he was already angry at my mother-he'd respond to me in a similar way. I know I felt rejected and hurt at the time. In retrospect, knowing that he struggled with my mother's issues, he likely didn't have much understanding for an emotional teen age girl at that time.

Your H's experience with his BPD ex may make it hard to deal with his teen age girls. I don't know how soon the two of you started dating after he left his ex, but he may not have learned some tools such as not to JADE and when faced with something similar- he's using the tools he has when his daughters are emotionally acting out too. But this doesn't mean they have BPD.

Still here...

Struggling with what my role was in when the conversation with DH went downhill.

Timeline (note, I don't do well with remembering stuff verbatim because I shut down, but this is the gist of how things have gone):

Last few months: typical interaction about "needing to email the kids' mom" or "needing to talk about the kids" has been that it gets brought up, DH may ask for suggestions or I offer suggestions (50/50), if DH asks and I offer, I typically offer a "how about writing BIFF" suggestion, DH may come back with "but she's not going to like that" or "I don't think that's going to work" type thing. I would return with "what about what you want, does that matter" or "we need to get this done" type stuff. DH would either communicate he's done talking about this or might increase volume/tone/intensity. I would get the sense "this isn't going anywhere" and not be sure if he would be planning to actually email/talk/whatever, and I would just not say anything, but be fuming/angry inside. Later (usually ~30 min - 1 hr) DH would write the email/re-bring up topic/etc and it would get done, either all him or he would ask me to review an email.

~2 weeks ago: I was kind of shut down and DH asked if he had done something. I told him how I'd been feeling like we couldn't talk about the kids in a way where he was "there" in the conversation, and that I felt lonely because while I can talk about stuff here and do, I wanted to be able to talk to HIM about stuff. I also said I felt resentful and angry that it felt like we couldn't talk about the kids. He asked how long I had felt like that, and I said I didn't know, but a while. He suggested we set a time to talk about stuff, but I said we'd done that before, and the issue for me isn't when we talk but how we talk. He said something like "with your group [the message boards here] there's this specific vocabulary" and I said I didn't care what specific words we used but I had learned a lot here and it was really hard to feel like I couldn't share tools/ideas with him for how to make things better. He asked me for some tools/resources so I asked him to read "the power of validation". He ordered it.

Last Monday 2/7: had MC appointment and brought up a lot of this stuff. That appt was where the MC reflected that the situation with the kids has been traumatic and continues to be so. And, with kid related stuff, the way I cope with the unrelenting stress/anxiety is to process verbally/externally and "get it fixed ASAP" and move on (to lower my stress). The way DH copes with kid related stress is internal and a different/slower pace. This is sort of the opposite of how both of us deal with every other stress. MC reflected that he and his wife have agreed not to talk about high intensity relationship stuff after a certain time of day, that when they do it typically goes south. He suggested that I ask DH "when is a good time for you to talk about kid stuff" so that it isn't "all me doing the work" (i.e. resentment) and DH has an opportunity to take ownership for having a conversation, but control over when it happens.

Immediately after MC appointment (again, recollection is fuzzy):

DH: So I ordered the book, but you still seem upset, did I do something?

Me: No, everything is fine, you didn't do anything wrong, I just don't know how to deal with my anger.

DH: (something else I can't remember)

Me: When is a good time for me to talk about my anger? (this is where something may have been going on for me -- I didn't really want to talk but felt like I should "try the new tool", and there may have been some "proving I'm doing it right" going on... not sure. Maybe DH heard something in my tone)

DH: Now is fine (this is where I felt like I heard a tone in his voice that seemed to me like it wasn't really)

Me: said I was angry at how it seemed like he was ignoring/dismissing SD12 in small but pointless ways (i.e. the other weekend she was trying to show him something and seemed to be talking directly to him, but he turned and talked to SD14 instead; "fake"/"joke" arguing/bickering about not letting her watch something, etc). That it was painful for me to be there and see it, knowing that it could be so much better and more positive instead, and that it all was just so pointless, given that she has a hard time being at our house anyway.

DH: something about how he didn't understand why I was so angry about stuff between him and SD12, and that they have their own relationship.

Me: I just don't know how to talk about this.

DH: We are talking about this.

Me: But are we really? (I start to cry and am shut down/frozen)

DH: talks a lot for a long time (I have a hard time remembering content), then says "Am I just f***ing monologing now", then says "Oh, I get it, I'm just supposed to affirm everything you say"

Me: Please stop

I think some time passes, and then DH went on a long walk.

DH apologized when he got back, he said he can be hurtful without even knowing it. I said Thank you.

We have not talked about this since 2/7.

Conversations with SD12 about staying night at Mom's and with SD14 telling DH what he did wrong were Friday 2/11. I have had a startle response / tic since 2/7, it's at work and not just around DH, but worse around him. 2/11 was calling the hotline and posting here. DH has noticed the tic last night and asked if there was anything to make it better. I said probably talking about stuff, but I wasn't ready.

...

It is hard for me to know what was my responsibility. Part of me wants to feel victimized because it's safe and comfortable for me to feel hurt. Another part wants to find responsibility for what happened "because it's the right thing to do". Part of me thinks what if it was mostly DH's fault? I feel like I don't want to dump on him. I also don't want to, if/when I see what I was responsible for, do a "fake" responsibility thing (like, when some people break up, they "take responsibility" for the breakup by saying "My problem was I gave too much" or "I just loved too much" -- stuff where it isn't really taking responsibility, but it sounds like it). Like, I don't want to just say "What I contributed to things going south was, I didn't listen to my finely tuned emotional radar that told me DH wasn't in a good place" or BS like that... but, that is also sort of true. I also feel like "if I don't find SOMETHING to be responsible for, then DH won't own up to his stuff, either".

Another really hard feeling is feeling betrayed. Like, I did what I was supposed to, I asked DH "when is a good time to talk", and my feeling is something like "he didn't hold up his end of the deal" or "he lied to me and said it was a good time, but it wasn't". I feel angry that he did that. I don't completely believe "now I can't trust him when he says he's ready to talk", but the resentful part of me wants to hold on to that "justified belief" that "now I get to feel justified and can finger point". It's sick but it's that "comfortable victim" mindset of "it's comfortable for me to believe I can't trust him now". But there's a part of that feeling betrayed that is real.

I suggested to DH last night that maybe we needed another MC appointment. He wondered if we could try to talk about stuff ourselves. I said I didn't know.

It is hard for me to untangle how much of not wanting to try talking about this with him is "real" and how much is me "clinging to something I know is an illusion" (i.e. "DH is not trustworthy") because it justifies my comfort of not being vulnerable.

It's a similar issue with the startle response/tic. How much of it is real/involuntary, and how much is "I am clinging to this outlet for my feelings because it is more comfortable than the alternative (talking)". I notice myself feeling like "I don't really want to work on getting rid of it" along with "I don't really want to work on bettering things" because when I am in pain and alone, that is familiar, manageable, and comfortable, even though it is miserable.

...

Then there is all the stuff with the kids but I will post about that another time.

And to fill out the other side:

DH feels like he is stuck between xW and me -- that we each have something we want him to do. DH has been frustrated with me before about this and it comes out as "stop telling me what to do". So, he feels stuck and then criticized by me.

Just making sure I understand...

There is a low boil when it comes to talking about the kids for you
It has to do with wanting H to use skills that you learned here/find to be helpful

MC said it has to do with how you guys talk about this: suggested you try it like x
You tried that way and there was a flash point, the opposite of what you wanted

When you both tried again, there is a lingering feeling of not syncing up with H
Shutting down was part of the low boil so that's out
Talking about it made it feel worse, you aren't sure why

You both, and particularly you, want to know where to go from here (if shutting down and trying to talk both feel painful)

You are doing some forensics on the conversation to understand how it went quickly from zero to 10

Is that in the ballpark?

Hey Kells76

I like to focus on small words and phrases when trying to turn a difficult conversation.

I'm wondering if in the future you can "turn"  "telling me what to do" into "what we have decided to accomplish"?

Plus..that might help you finish conversations better.

"So..babe have we decided to accomplish a, b and c"? 

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

Just want to add that this suggests H received information as "kells76 has a complaint/criticism about me" versus "kells76 feels lonely"

Locating the source of your loneliness and anger in something he is doing may be making it hard for him to respond to your vulnerability authentically because your vulnerable feelings come out in glimpses and are then quickly shooed off to the side. Nothing to see here. 

He may also be purposefully narrowing the debate to "I ordered the book" because he is equally uncomfortable being vulnerable, not knowing if "this is one more thing I'm doing wrong as a dad"

What caught my attention in your recap is that you felt lonely, and then it slipped away and was hard to locate, even though that felt like a genuine emotion in all of this.

"I feel selfish for how lonely I feel" is maybe happening?

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and care here. Gemsforeyes, zachira, Notwendy, ForeverDad, Gagrl, thank you guys. Don't want to leave you out, and I want to interact more with what you've shared and suggested. Will do so as I continue to destress/relax.

Lnl:


If "low boil" means "long-term/chronic low-grade tension", then yes.


Yes, and I think that's why even at the start, when things were just as if not more stressful and weird, the conflict wasn't between US -- because we were in the same space. Over the years it feels to me like "I've picked up these skills/tools/ideas and see how things could be better... but you are still back there?" So in addition to the stress coming from the kids' mom, now there's the stress of DH and I not being on the same plane, as it were.


And I'm on board that there are two separate issues to deal with; one, actually figuring out whatever logistical thing re: the kids, but the meta issue is how we even talk about that.


Haven't tried again since MC -- drama with SD12/SD14 instead. I've been pretty shut down and not touching "hey, about that conversation last Monday" at all. But, the scenario I create in my head is "if we try again, who knows, it might just explode again, because even agreeing that it's a good time to talk doesn't work"


I know not talking about it isn't a solution, and I genuinely am not trying to punish DH or do "silent treatment". We are chatting, just not about resolving anything. At this point my belief is "talking about it made it worse... because I felt betrayed".


DH seems very open to "let's just try talking again". I feel... not opposed to it, but so... like I just don't care. Sure, we could talk, or we could not talk. Whatever. We could talk and it could be fine... once... or not. Who knows. Resigned, I guess. Exhausted.


Yeah... It feels like the "safest" way that I can do needed work. Not thinking about it at all is not healthy, and is like a 0 on the scale of "working to make things better". Talking directly to DH would be like a 9. Dissecting it here feels like "I'm at least trying to do something to make things better" but at a 3, which I can kind of handle right now, instead of a 9.

The forensics include "am I accurately seeing my responsibility in what happened, whether it was 0%, 100%, or other".

Yes. And I think that is part of why I have such a hard time when he "monologues" because it comes across to me not as him sharing how he feels or problem solving, but building a wall of words between us, and I am left alone on one side.

I know!  *)


I think that ties in with what LnL is picking up on, too. I feel lonely and like we are not together on the kid stuff. I do want us to be together on it, able to talk about it and problemsolve together. Like Notwendy said, my overfunctioning is a variable in there too.

The dynamic is typically:

kells76 believes DH doesn't want to talk about issues re: the kids, because it is too stressful. DH would probably agree "it is stressful for me to talk about kid related issues". kells76 is concerned that time-sensitive task X won't get done because DH isn't engaging with it. kells76 tells DH she will just send the email about X. Or, kells76 tells DH, "we need to figure X out, it's coming up this week", there is conflict between DH and kells76, DH comes back to baseline and writes the email, and has kells76 "do the tools on it" before sending it.

It's the feeling of "if I don't either do it, or remind DH that it's really important, it won't happen, and because it is about spending time with the kids, it CAN'T get dropped, because that communicates to them that they aren't important".

So yes, using more "we... us... together..." language could help, and having it be an open-ended question versus a "did you send the email" question.

Does he acknowledge he monologues?

A chronic issue..that simply may never get better (or be as good as it gets) in my marriage is that when my wife is about 1/2 way dysregulated...she will start monologing.  Except it normally turns in  a speech with questions and demands for answers...no opportunity for me to answer and being pizzed off that I don't answer.

Maybe I can break mine down into the above and about 1/3 of the time when she just seems to want to talk...so I can't talk.

Is there anyway to break down the monologues into categories?  Perhaps if even 1/4 of them get better...it's better.

Best,

FF

the words I was hoping you can target are "tell" versus "accomplish".  (perhaps you can brainstorm other words similar to "accomplish" that you can be deliberate about substituting in.)

Also (kinda switching gears). 

What if you said/asked "would you like to talk about (kid issue) or just agree to do a and b"  (kinda like many things in congress and "accepted by unanimous consent" (or whatever they say).



Best,

FF

I have a feeling this is going to need some special care  *)

If you're an over functioner you will be quick to check this off (e.g. "made my feelings known, check") and move to problem solving, preferably with you directing.

Versus "I feel lonely" with the actual emotion. Feeling it in the body, letting it actually be felt between the two of you.

How did H respond when you said you felt lonely?

My sense is that there is a discrepancy in vulnerability between you two. It sounds like you are trying to be open about your emotions and the impact of these issues with the kids and ex.

While it sounds as if he closes himself off, not only to you, but to his daughters, as a self protection strategy.

So while you’re attempting to have a conversation, you aren’t on the same page. Perhaps your vulnerability scares him a bit and he shuts down more. And you react to him closing off.

Another issue that may be arising is that he might be feeling “less than” by your request for him to learn some of the skills that you’ve incorporated. And instead of sharing a feeling of inadequacy with you, he might be moving toward a mansplaining or talking down strategy?

CF:


It's hit or miss. Sometimes he does a great job at hearing them and connecting. Things are a LOT better with SD14 who opens up to him MUCH more than to me, which is fine. The "good connection" times with SD12 sometimes come after a blowup. Or, if not after a blowup, then only if I make him aware "hey, SD12 needs support".

It is hard for me that it seems unpredictable. Will DH be empathetic, available, and calm? Or will things escalate? I don't always know. Or, I have a guess based on tone, but I either know it's not effective to say "hey, you say X, but you sound like Not X", or I ignore my guess. The not knowing is the hardest for me. If he were always activated etc in these conversations, at least I would know. But maybe 45% of the time it's fine and 55% of the time not.

His mom had BPD traits and his dad was Aspergers-ish. So that is part of where he is coming from.


I think so. I tend to cry before getting totally shut down, and I think that makes it worse for him. When I cry is typically when he will do the monologue wall, and yeah, then I react to that.


Possible, though the monologuing has been his activated thing as long as we've been together, and not just about the kids/skills. I see it more as a "DH thing" with DH as an individual (he tends towards intellectualizing/analytical) vs mansplaining.

FF:


When he said "am I f***ing monologuing again" was the first time I heard him reflect that he does it. We haven't talked about it. Kind of my theme, I guess -- not talking about it.

...

He did make a MC appt for this Monday. I am sort of open to working on stuff with DH before then, but if not, MC might feel safer to me.

...

More in a bit.

FF:


In terms of content? That is tricky. By the time we are at that stage, I have usually lost some short term memory ability, and I am trying to mentally "escape". My "freeze" response is really strong so I am physically there but mentally trying to "not be there".

I believe the content is about how he is feeling, but in a "reporting"/"intellectualizing" the feelings kind of way, versus a "I feel vulnerable and am letting down my guard to share with you" kind of way.

Well, OK, now that I think about it, some other content might be: "I hear what you're saying. But I don't think so/I don't see it that way". Or, "I think you (kells76) are doing/feeling this because of X, Y, and Z".

So, this isn't really fair, because it's not DH reporting on the content, it's me trying to remember, and it's biased.

But, I guess there could be 3 content categories:

-Reporting DH's feelings from a distance;

-Repeating some "tools" phrases followed by "but"; and

-Analyzing why I (kells76) am feeling/doing what I feel/do.

...

Re:


OK, so, moving the tone of the conversation away from "kells76 telling DH what needs to be done" and towards "how can we together accomplish our goal" -- is that close to what you're thinking?

"meeting a goal" or "wrapping things up" or "getting a plan" could be close.

...


That might take some groundwork. Are you thinking the options are "talk about X or kells76 does X", or "talk about X or DH does X"? Could you share whom you envision doing the "agreeing to do a and b"?

I think that has some potential down the road... I think we first need to get "having a non-activated conversation about the kids" down and then it could help to have ground rules like that -- where we figure out OK, do we want to just talk? Or is there a decision that needs to be made? Right now those are really mixed up and both are activating/escalating.

LnL:


I think I have a belief that I will feel better inside if we can solve the problem. Hence my intensity/velocity to "just get it done".

I don't remember how DH responded when I said I was lonely. I brought it up in MC too but I don't remember either time if DH picked it up. I think last Monday after he took a long walk and came back, I think he said "I'm sorry you've been feeling so lonely."

Ugg...so to be clear, you freeze up or have issues when he starts doing surgery on the "why" behind your feelings?

And...I'm picking up the vibe that he likes wildly speculating about those feelings/reasons and is often waaaaaaay off the mark from anything you have ever considered.  Am I close?

Uggg...(come on..everyone give us an uggg...FF gets triggered by this too)


So...I'm guessing it is not "Gosh Kells...I've never thought of it that way, do you have insight into where those feelings come from?"



ahh...the lovely but...or the stinky butt, depending on how you see it.

I have made a deliberate effort for about a year now to get rid of "but" and usually substitute "and also".

You have to play with it and see if it fits.  Usually you will find that "and also" helps get away from dichotomous thinking  "instead of 1 or 2"  it can be "1 and 2"

Yep..I agree with 1 and also believe that 2 is true.

instead of

Yep..1 is the best thing..but...you 2 is great.  (not the best example)


Worth a  :hug: :hug: :hug:  because if my assumption is right, a lot of the freeze comes from this.  It does for me...



Yes...tone and "point of view".  

Kells "telling" is an implicit message (or perhaps explicit) of Kells being in charge and knowing better...having the power (etc etc etc).

Kells and hubby "accomplishing together" is a team thing...it got done, let's high 5 and move along.



Maybe...

You know the "wrap things up" could morph into "wrap things up quickly".

As in "Hey hubby, would you like to wrap this up quickly and we agree to accomplish x (call school counselor and verify paper received...as example) by end of day tomorrow?

hubby: (relieved that a  door is open to avoid a long conversation).. "Oh sure..let's do that"

Kells:  "Ok great...is your schedule open to do that tomorrow?"

Hubby:  (starts to ramp up because he realizes...)  Oh crap...zooms all day and that project is due. (you see the temp rising)

Kells:  "my afternoon is open, does it help us if I call?"

Hubby: "oh yes babe..and that will give me time to massage you for hours..."  

(Ok, you get the vibe.  Listen..I think you still kinda need to overfunction and drive this ship...keep the momentum going on "issues".  But...I think you need to break things into much smaller pieces, smaller convos.  So don't focus on that you have to eat the elephant..just take a bite..then another..then...)


I think I kinda did that above, but clarify if you are missing out on my "vision".



One way is to have smaller...successful conversations.  Declare victory then move on.

I have a sense some of these get too big...to many things swirling around.  (any of that sound right?)

Best,

FF

Again, caveat is that I'm pretty shut down and am trying to reconstruct the content of DH's "monologues". I could be off.


Yes.


No, so, interestingly, it's not that he's inaccurate that's the problem... it's the pivot from "kells76 raising an issue about DH" to "let's make this about kells76's issues" that is the problem for me. For example, I'm working through FOO issues and in many ways I relate to SD12. DH brought that up during our blowup. Not inaccurate, but the feeling is "why can't we talk about what I brought up... why do you switch over to something accurate but not timely".

...


Yes, my sense is that he does not ask me "what do you think".

Oh...that's different.


So you want to talk about a step child situation (and perhaps it's timely or pressing) and he deflects/changes to "kells your r/s with your family is obviously influencing your judgment..."

Is that even close?

Hmmmm

Best,

FF

Kells, I tend to overfunction in the relationship area, and also think our FOO influences our relationship choices in many ways ( good and not so good).

Even as a teen I was thinking about how to not be like my BPD mother and to not have the issues I observed between my parents be an issue in my own marriage when I was married one day. So I was pretty shocked when some similar dynamics happened- not as severe as with my parents but difficult nonetheless. Now that I understand the influence of our FOO's on our relationship skills, I see how these situations could have happened.

I was the one working more to "fix things". My H on the other hand had no interest in that kind of thing. Compared to my family, his looked ideal and mine was obviously dysfunctional so it was assumed that the issues were my concern.
.
Then I came accross the idea that we match our partners in our level of emotional skills, boundaries- a term the book called differentiation. ( I have mentioned it before) and then the statement that really got my attention was "each partner thinks they are the more differentiated one". Wow, my H also thought he was "more together" than I am ( and I bought into that having been raised with a BPD mother) and from my point of view, there were issues that my H could not see in himself but I could see them.

So what did we match with in our FOO's?  It was really hard to see this. His mother seemed to be a saint. But while his family was more functional than my family, if I took a closer look- the issue in DH's family was co-dependency. MIL overfunctioned, and this overfunctioning was controlling. Communication skills were poor. In my FOO, my father overfunctioned.

I guess the point here is that, one doesn't need to have a raging, dysregulated BPD parent to have some family dysfunction and one doesn't have to have a BPD spouse to have marital issues to work on. Probably all families have some. But if your H is making a point of your FOO issues- well he probably has some too - maybe not the same ones but something predisposed him to choosing his first wife and something attracted you and he together. This isn't a bad thing- you two have a lot of good together. But you are struggling with something in the marriage. I don't look at FOO's in order to blame but to find some clues to the dysfunction - as a way to help work with it- as working on those might also benefit the marriage.

The good news is that if only one person is interested doing this kind of work- one person can have an impact. You can work on your part, work on your own FOO issues and while one can not change another person directly, it can change the dynamics between you two. I think it still comes down to some self care. If FOO issues are arising for you ( and they can during some stages of parenthood) then some individual counseling might help. It's not about the marriage, or the girls but doing something for YOU and that can also indirectly help the other issues.

It might also be that you are the best person to be involved with the girls at their age, since you too are female. Your H may feel out of his league being that he didn't go through the adolescence they are going through. Discussing things like dating, crushes, periods, clothes shopping- he might not feel he can relate to that much. It might be that you will be carrying that part of the parenting at this stage because you can relate to it better. But take some time to take care of you too Kells.

Kells, how often do you experience this "zoning out"? It sounds scary, and you are aware enough that it happens that you can't reconstruct what your DH has said. It sounds like a mini-dissociation. Is there anything specific that triggers this, or do you think it is a more general shutdown?

Is it worth making this a topic for individual therapy?

So...I've used the term "overfunctioning" in this post and the likely wisest course at this point is to acknowledge that there is "a strong possibility" that you are in fact "overfunctioning" or "stepping outside approrpriate boundaries".  (very different than saying you actually are doing it)

So...from there I think that "if you are going to make a mistake" in the "functioning" "underfunctioning" "overfunctioning" area...I would lean into "over function" (until we know "for sure" that you have way over done it)

Here is my reason (and I would invite others to comment)...we know there are odd dynamics for these kids and if you look at the comment I quoted, I think it sums up my thinking.

Plus...knowing your story as I do, it appears you are dragging them (all involved) towards something healthier.

Bottom line:  Something to keep an eye on, but when not sure "lean in" to what you have been doing so far.

Best,

FF

You and H also do something in your dialog example that reminds me of this thing called switchtracking. One person gives feedback to another person. The receiver then switches to another topic.

A lot of people do this.

It's hard to receive feedback, and even harder when it's a level 10 red zone topic.

You give feedback with strong emotion: "I'm not sure you're "here" when we talk about the kids""

And he matches that intensity with his own topic, "I bought the book like you asked" (or whatever new thing he introduces)

He just switchtracked.

If you're like me, you can switchtrack on yourself  :(

Catching it is a skill.

I had this happen with H the other night when, 5 min before dinner was going to be ready, he got a text from SD23 and said, "I'm going to talk to SD23 for 5 min."

After 15 min, still talking to her, I pointed to the food and did a cartwheel and some backflips with my face.

30 min later, he's still talking to her, so I served myself and ate alone.

H wrapped up his call. I was low boil annoyed. He was low boil defensive. We were civil and a bit short with each other, surface level fine but there was tension.

H: "Look, I can tell you're annoyed at me." (bid)
Me: "I was annoyed because you said it was going to be 5 min, and we were about to eat." (track 1)

H: "I feel like if it was SD26 you wouldn't be annoyed." (trackswitch)
Me: "I'm annoyed because you said it was going to be 5 min and it was 30. Food was ready" (track 1)
H: "I don't have a long commute anymore and that's when I talked to SD23, because I know you don't like me talking to her." (trackswitch)
Me: "It doesn't matter who calls 5 min before dinner. If it goes on for 30 min and food is ready, I'm going to be annoyed." (track 1)
H: "You're telling me that you would be annoyed if it was S26." (trackswitch)
Me: "What I said. My annoyance is about waiting. I was at a 3, and went down to a 1, now I'm at a 2 because I know why I'm annoyed and it's not because who called, it's because I had to wait. (track 1)

Then we walked the dog and when we got back to the house he said, "I didn't realize it was 30 min. I lost track of time and I'm sorry."

You know my stuff with H and SD23. We could've had a much bigger fight if I engaged his trackswitch (with drama triangle dragged in).

Trackswitching feels like invalidation so it can start an emotional snowball.

In your example, I wonder if you have these raw feelings (lonely --> angry) and they are uncomfortable so get shunted to the side (while still simmering). You move quickly to issues --> solutions. Except these issues are tangled together and both of you are trackswitching to a degree that it's hard to stay on track with one thing. This compounds the lonely --> angry feelings because you're trying to communicate and somehow that's making you feel less close.

Thoughts?

LNL

I love the way you organize things!  I had always described "trackswitching" as "a swirl of conversations"

Guess what.. I like to pick a topic/issue...deal with it and move on.

My pwBPD likes to  deal with the 1 that is on the table, if it is about to be solved...add a distraction...about to solve that...add a distraction (wash rinse repeat), and then complain nothing ever gets solved...

I'm going to replace "the swirl" with "trackswitching".


Anyway...LNL, why can he not say "Hey babe...I'm about to eat, let me call you after dinner." ?

Best,

FF

I think that is close. It's not that quick of a "switch". Usually there are a couple rounds of discussing the tangible issue at hand (sending the email, trading a day, etc) before it escalates to "switching", if it goes there. So it's not an instantaneous deflection. We would have to reach the level of "kells76 saying it is painful to watch the interaction with SD12 / saying we should do a better job of validating SD12 / etc" (i.e., related but more meta level stuff) before DH would deflect.

My sense of the deflection is that DH sees it as valid. He is not wrong that I bring experiences from my FOO to the table, and how things went with them influence how I see things going with the kids. We have talked through, a couple times in counseling, situations where I have or could have "overrelated" to the kids -- i.e., I'm helping both the kids with math this year, and I find myself feeling resentful at their mom. My feeling is "she has all this time with them, why can't she bother taking better care of them". I've talked through that in counseling with DH there -- trying to figure out "am I volunteering to help with math because the kids need it, or am I solving an internal need I have". The internal need being -- I remember being a kid and my mom, while physically around, wasn't very emotionally present. So, by going above and beyond by helping SD14 and SD12, is it for them, or is it for me?


That's the tightrope -- how can I balance "yes, it is true that the kids need help with math" with "maybe I am trying to fix something for me by helping them". "Underfunctioning" might look like "not my kids, not my job, the kids need to fail so they can see their mom for who she is". Waaaaay overfunctioning might be... IDK, volunteering to help with all their homework, not just one subject.

Anyway, to shorten things, DH has seen me work through "am I just projecting myself into situations involving the kids / overidentifying with the kids". So, he may believe that it is fair and pertinent to remind me / bring up that if it's painful for me to watch how he interacts with SD12, then I'm overidentifying with the kids, and I need to unenmesh and let him and SD12 have an independent relationship (for example).

That would be the short story of why he may deflect -- that he doesn't see it as a deflection/derailment. That he sees it as "if only kells76 knew or could be shown that she is overidentifying with the kids, she would back off and not be in pain, and things would be fine/go better". A possibility.

A couple times a year, and usually only with DH (i.e. in the closest relationship). I am aware enough in it to know that I am losing my verbal capacity and that I can't really track with what he's saying. It's typically when he escalates to monologuing -- where it's not a back and forth dialogue any more, but him talking for a long time.

It can also happen if I feel that I am in an "impossible situation" with him. For example, sometimes if I'm feeling afraid but we need to talk about something, I say "I'm not sure how you're going to take this" or "I don't know how you're going to react to what I have to say" or something like that. Depending on what space he's in, he sometimes says "Then you'll have to find out" or "you know you don't have control over my reactions" etc. I think he is coming from a place where he doesn't want to feel controlled or like he is "required" to respond in a certain way.

For me, I experience it as "DH knows how he will probably react, but he's not telling me." That is an impossible situation for me -- if I talk, it's completely unpredictable what will happen -- he might blow up, or he might be very validating. I don't know. But he knows -- and he's not telling me.

I typically break down when that happens due to struggling with feeling both like I would like him to help me and like I need to escape from him. There is no coherent way (is my experience) to deal with that unpredictability/not knowing. He could be very helpful and calm, or he might be the source of more invalidation. He isn't hurting me emotionally, but he might.

Those are the types of situations where it happens. It is almost 100% with DH and nobody else, and the situations usually involve something that is "impossible to resolve".

I told him last time he said "you will just have to find out" that that was cruel and to not say that again.

Editing to add -- not sure if I have brought this up here, but my mom has C-PTSD from early childhood abuse. So I think there is something generational happening.

I can see that that's part of what's going on -- I remember back when SD14 (wow, now SD15!) was ~12 or so, I did WAY more of the "tucking in at night" type stuff than DH. Now, she is much more connected with him, and opens up to him much more than to me, which I completely support.

I struggle with dissecting out how much of SD12's pulling away from DH is adolescence versus a DH skills deficit. SD12 and I are fairly close -- I try to be super validating so that she can just open up and talk, and that is pretty successful. It is painful to remember that she and DH used to be closer, and part of me would truly be ok if she hated me if that meant she could have that closeness back with DH, if that makes sense. It's hard to accept that this is part of SD12's "story" right now -- that she just isn't that close to DH. I almost feel guilty that she is so close to me, and I try to find ways for DH to share more with her. It is true that a lot of what she opens up about is typical 12 year old girl stuff -- friend drama, online videos, new makeup, etc.

I guess I have to be patient to see how much of these fluctuating adult/child "pairings" are "how it is forever" versus "a chapter in the story".

Yes, it does feel incredibly invalidating to me. It comes across to me as "I hear you discussing how you feel, but that's not important. What's REALLY important is how I feel, and I can't wait until you're done to insert myself."

I'll be back for more later; have to wrap up for now. Just wanted to get that out there.

That confirms what I suspected...so I'm going to stick with my advice of trying to "break it into bite size pieces" and quickly try to give a pathway to "no more discussion..we are done..we will accomplish X"

Even though you know there might be some more convo about "how" to accomplish X (who sends who calls)...

Basically...if you can add in more "victories" where you "come together"...do you think the switching thing would get better?

Best,

FF

Possibly... I can envision a scenario where we get more experiences of efficiently (and with low intensity) handling kid-related issues: sticking to solving the logistics, wrapping it up, "accomplishing" the short, defined goals (i.e., "we need to email about the schedule change, OK I'll do it by 5pm tomorrow, sounds good, want me to review it before you send it, sure I will review it by 4pm"). Like, if we can keep the footprint pretty small on these things and have multiple successful executions, then yeah, I think that would short circuit out the "derailing".

I'm thinking the derailing/sidetracking happens to get our attention, and it may not be conscious, but a manifestation of old buried stuff surfacing. Something needs work, and the weak spot where it is able to raise its head is... related to the kids.

I wonder if there's a mixed message in how this is being conveyed? You want to discuss how you feel ... and yet, if I'm following the dialog accurately ... it's attached to a complaint about DH. And when DH tries to focus on how you feel, you say it's not him, it's you. But then that's followed by telling him what he does wrong ... ?

First though, when I re-read your dialog, what stands out is how much you two care about each another. You're both clearly paddling in the same boat.

So looking at the dialog closely (where the feelings are made explicit, in particular)


DH made a genuine, kind effort. He noticed when you were shut down and reached out. He clarified and asked questions. He asked how could he make something better.

All this in the context of a pretty complicated high-maintenance blended family situation.

I admire you and DH.


I admire this about you, too. Looking back at the dialog again, it's almost like emotional switchtracking, if that makes sense. Something triggers a more intense emotion and then there's a super fast verbal maneuver that, if it's anything like what I do, is a way to control things from getting too vulnerable.


DH goes for a walk.


Maybe DH got confused by this:


He might be wondering: Is it your feelings or is it what he's doing? And if it's what he's doing in relationship to SD12, how come this is emotional for you?

You may be right about the issue (DH can communicate in a more skilled way with SD12) and you are resisting a difficult, maybe as-yet-unnamed vulnerable emotion that is in your wheelhouse.

Naming and genuinely owning that feeling, the one that is specific to why you feel aggravated when DH dismisses SD12, might make it for DH to respond to what's going on.

I wonder if there is a specific feeling/memory when you are witness to those moments, like the things you alluded to in your FOO, that is barreling at you so fast it makes it hard to talk about this with DH?

My H has asked me a similar question: Why are your emotions a 10 about this thing with (then) SD19?

Which, never mind that it's not a super skilled way to ask, is still a valid question.

If there is a legacy feeling happening that pre-dates this stuff with DH and SD12 (that you alluded to with FOO stuff), sometimes the best way to separate the issues is to give a heads up that you're working on something. It seems to be triggered when X and Y is happening. Then come up with a plan for how you're going to handle it.

"I feel (big feeling) when you're talking to SD12 and I need to figure out what's happening with me. I may need to (walk away/put on headphones/bite my hand) so heads up that's going to happen. My goal is to be able to bring this feeling down to something I can manage."

AND

"I want us to be on the same page about validating SD12. It's important to me because I can't unsee it or pretend it isn't happening. Maybe this book will help explain what I'm going for."

thoughts?

You've got my idea.  Good luck!

Best,

FF

As our MC would say, it's important to "have a different experience" -- i.e. to go from "whenever we try to talk about the kids' schedule, it disintegrates" to "we had a brief successful conversation about the schedule", and to build on that to change associations ("this will always go badly" to "sometimes this is fine" to "this usually goes ok").

...

Tied in to that are the shutdowns/panic attacks I have. I had another one Tuesday night. I still have kind of a startle response/tic going on. I was sitting in a corner in the kitchen reading and DH came over and sat next to me and started giving me a backrub. I was surprised (I thought he was still busy with something else in another room) and sat for a bit, but then started feeling overwhelmed. The feelings were that I needed to get away/not be cornered/stuck, but I didn't want to communicate that DH was the problem -- I know it wasn't him. But it escalated for me pretty fast to total panic/sobbing, not being able to verbalize what was going on, and the "impossible situations" of "I can't talk/I need to tell you to stop", "I feel panic when you're here/I need you to know you're not the problem", "I need you to not touch me/I know you can help me feel better".

He helped me go sit down on the bed and was super calm and validating. That felt worse to me because every other time, that would be exactly what would help. But something about this time was too far for me. I just kept inching away from him but I didn't want to hurt him. He was still able to sit near me and not get mad/activated.

It just seems like there is damage being done to our relationship when things get to this point of me feeling fear around him, but knowing he's not the source of it. So now I'm wondering if part of my responsibility is to get myself out of conversations way earlier, if I have a sense that things will be too tense?


Right when DH brought up that he bought the book but I still seemed upset, I feel like I heard something there that I identified as a red flag. And then definitely by the time I asked "when is a good time for me to talk about my anger", I feel like I knew "something is off". If it's just damaging us when I cry/check out/panic, then maybe I need to leave before it gets there, instead of participating in going down the road of conversation with low skills and only because "it's the right thing to do".

...

LnL:


That makes sense now that you call it out. Even as I remember it, there was something fake about me saying "everything is fine, you didn't do anything wrong", that was more about managing the situation than saying something true. I.e., it could be true, but I was using it to try to turn the knob down, because I thought I felt DH turning the knob up.


Yeah, one is of young SD12 back when she was SD5; it was Mom's time but Mom wasn't there and she was with Stepdad. DH and I were there too at a church thing. SD5 wanted to go with us and we were fine with it; Stepdad said he was too but then texted Mom. Mom said No so Stepdad told SD5 she couldn't go with us. She started crying. I can't remember if we hugged her goodbye or not, but I remember having to walk away from her and leave her there crying alone.

And then that I am pretty sure is then tied back to FOO stuff. I remember being alone a lot as a kid, and my mom not being emotionally available. I definitely cried a lot and remember crying alone a lot.


Yeah, I want to keep thinking about this. I have to wrap up for a bit now, but will be back later.

Kells,

This stood out to me from your description of the MC session:

The MC says the situation is traumatic, and you are feeling "checked out", numb, panicked, on edge, etc. That sounds like a trauma reaction. It makes sense that it is hard to talk about it because trauma is not really in that place in a person's brain. It's a more primitive reaction.

The first place to start is managing the reaction. How are you with "grounding techniques"?

I've been following this thread and don't have a lot to add to the excellent comments here.

I think recognizing your own trauma response is helpful. It may take removing yourself from the conversation for a moment. I can relate to that. It helped me to learn to say " I am too overwhelmed to say something right now, please give me a moment" - this helped reduce those emotional circular discussions where you just feel awful afterwards, like an "emotional hangover" .

It's interesting that you brought up your mother's issues and that somehow, things are being brought up in parenting. For me, the additional awareness and autonomy brought more friction between me and my BPD mother. I think this is normal, as teens are more likely to assert themselves and notice that something isn't quite OK in the family. In some ways, parenting my teens was reparative for me. I wanted them to have the caring mother I wished for and so could strive for that.  Perhaps in a way you are doing this too- and then when you see your H not quite getting it, it feels wrong to you.

Going back to LnL's post, finally.


It's an ongoing issue for me. When I'm back at baseline, this makes sense -- there needs to be a back-and-forth, and it's not necessarily fair to expect DH to just absorb all my complaint/issue instantly. Maybe he has never seen himself doing X before -- it's not on his radar -- so if I bring it up ("I see you being dismissive of and ignoring SD12"), but he doesn't experience himself doing that, then yes, there could be some back and forth about "but I don't think I'm doing that".

And then if I both have the complaint and also say the issue is "just my anger", yeah, I can see that I'm running 2 things at once but one is just to try to control the other. I.e., maybe I am truly upset that I see DH acting a certain way towards SD12. But, in order to try to control his emotions and the dialogue, I say that "really, the problem is me and my anger about it". I want to be angry with him, and get him to see what I think he's doing and make a change, but I believe I will shut down/panic if he escalates, so I will do this other thing in an attempt to keep the intensity down. Except, this other thing undermines my point.

What I say: "I have a problem with how I see you treat SD12"

Way I try to manage conversation: "The problem is me"

Yeah, that is a mixed message.

The coping mechanism of "I am the problem" goes back a long time. I remember being grade-school age or younger and telling my mom I hated myself. I had acting-in behaviors as a teen as well. Those may have been ways I believed I could receive the loving attention and care I didn't otherwise reliably get from my mom. They must have worked and I see I may be using "I am the problem" to manage with DH.

...


Thank you. In ways we are getting better. I don't have the shut down panic as often any more. I have a few skills to deescalate myself, and DH offers to help me with them. He is slowly getting more patient when I struggle.

...


The "is it him or me" question has to do with me using "I'm the problem" as an intensity management mechanism -- like you noticed above. If "I am the problem", then instead of "DH leaving and I am alone" by him monologuing (isolating himself behind words, away from me emotionally), maybe DH will turn towards me and I will not be alone. I think when I was younger (and still now, differently), I couldn't be angry at my mom that she was not emotionally there. Anger would definitely mean, somehow, that she would not "be there". But, if I was very sad, or acted in in a noticeable enough way (eating disorder), I could get her to "be there" and I would not feel forgotten or alone.

The "if it's DH and SD12, why does it matter to kells76" question has to do with something besides the "kells76 says she's the problem" coping mechanism.

I agree it has to do with what you've spelled out:


Yeah, two things at once, and again, I see now that it could be confusing to DH to have them all twisted together. As frustrating as it was when he brought up "you're identifying too much with SD12, we have our own relationship", part of that was true (though perhaps part for him was his own resistance to his own "difficult, maybe as-yet-unnamed vulnerable emotion").


I had not thought about it that way. Because yes, I do want DH to respond to what's genuinely going on.

I feel a lot of powerlessness when I see him be dismissive/ignoring (in my perspective) of SD12. I feel like I see "things headed south" and "things being destructive", and I feel trapped into watching it with no way to stop it. And I feel fear that the invalidation/ignoring/putting down of SD12 is damaging her personality.

So, the feelings include:

powerlessness/no control (but more the powerlessness)

trapped

fearful

...


I think I did mention a memory about then-SD5, but again, that's just a string tied to earlier FOO stuff, and probably generational stuff coming from my mom. I don't really have any specific memories of "Mom doing something awful to me"; I do have some memories of "something sort of normal happening, and Mom yelling or getting really, really quiet". Also memories of wanting to show Mom something, and she was asleep in the day time, and wanting Mom at night, but getting Dad instead. Nothing super specific or content-wise traumatic, but there was always a sense that it was really bad for Mom to be sad or angry. We didn't really share feelings, and I remember a sense of being feelings-disabled (i.e. unable to really identify/name feelings) in my early to mid 20s.

Nothing specifically traumatic, just generally always me feeling down/sad/like I was the problem, feeling scared that something would happen to my mom, feeling like I needed to take care of myself, feeling like I shouldn't do stuff that would upset/sadden her, etc. Pervasive/chronic versus acute.

...


Maybe one of our challenges will be for DH and I to talk about FOO stuff impacting parenting/kids without the act of raising that topic being triggering. I.e., without it being a track switch from either of us. Like you suggested, it can be real that DH is doing something unhealthy, and also real that my reaction about it is higher due to FOO stuff than is normal. DH's behavior with SD12 could be a 5/10, so an issue, and my response to it is an 8/10, so 5 units of normal response and 3 extra units that are coming from elsewhere.


Yeah. I'm realizing now that another fear I have is that if I'm not there, things won't go well between SD12 and DH. Not all the time, but it's this sense that I struggle with trusting that DH will use the appropriate tools (validating, SET, etc). And that contributes to my "trapped" feeling -- that when "things are going south" with the two of them, and I happen to be there... that I can't leave. That I HAVE to stay. It's the fear that DH will be hurtful to SD12 so I have to "fix it", but the trauma, I guess, of being trapped witnessing it.

you ok?

It was a hard week+ ... doing better today. We have a counseling appt Monday. Not suicidal now (or then), but last week it was more the thoughts coming up of "what if I wasn't here... I'd feel better". I knew it wasn't healthy. Mostly just needed to talk and get support. FYI for using the hotline, it's a lot of automated "your call is important to us, press 1 for English" at the start. And then I was on hold... with muzak. If I were in a way worse place IDK how I'd deal with that.

Hi empath;


Yeah, it feels like I'm just gone... I can't engage with verbal stuff.

I have a few tools for managing the reaction.

One is "visualizing being in a peaceful place". I have a specific place I think of, and I try to picture as many details as possible.

Another is standing in an X shape and rocking laterally back and forth from foot to foot.

Another, that I learned here, is the mammalian dive reflex, where you submerge your whole face in ice cold water.

1 and 3 I do on my own. Sometimes DH will suggest 2, and sometimes I take him up on it.

I am doing better with attempting to use the tools when I sense myself escalating. Sometimes, though, I'm so far gone that while I still have awareness that I'm panicking/checking out, I lose the desire to use the tools. Something about just escaping into the response is more appealing or comfortable.

I would probably need to talk to DH ahead of time so he'd know. I sense even now a fear that cutting things off like that would not stop an eventual escalation -- like, things would still get traumatic, just later on. A fear that taking a time out would be prolonging the inevitable.

That being said, it still may be better to try and leave -- just to stop things then, regardless of what may or may not happen later. Because it's not like it'd go better to power through when we're both activated.


I want DH to not think it's inevitable that the kids' mom will "win", that he will "lose", that it's not worth trying something different, that the kids will reject him, that there's nothing he can do to make things go differently for him and SD12. I want him to not lose hope even when SD12 says all kinds of stuff that would make him feel rejected.

I think if I see DH doing stuff that comes across to me as "checking out when the kids are there", that is painful to me because that is what my mom would do.

I wonder what your DH's experience with his own parents was?

Yes teens will say things. One of their tasks is to try to discover who they are as autonomous people and they don't know who they are yet, so they adopt a "not my parent" attitude. To the parent, this can feel like rejection but it's a normal process. I think from the parent perspective, we need to take this from a loving perspective and not react with our own personal hurts. This is different from having boundaries. A teen needs to know it's not OK to cuss out a parent if they are doing that, but I also wonder if every parent of a teen hasn't heard "I hate you" at least once after holding a boundary with them.

This kind of thing was really difficult for me because of my experiences with my BPD mother. She would explain it to others as this "mother daughter teen age thing" and that it was my issue but truthfully I was being emotionally abused and hated it. So when my own teens were angry at me, I feared they would also resent me that way too. But the relationship is different and teens grow out of it. I also think it's hard for a teen to assert autonomy with a BPD parent because the response from that parent is so risky. A parent might get upset with a teen but not go into a rage.

You see your H struggle with his teens and it feels like what you experienced but your H is a different person so their relationship is different. He may get exasperated with them, well welcome to the parent of teen agers club. Teens can be challenging at times and he may feel less capable of parenting teen girls than you. Genetics being what they are- they may remind him of his ex- even if they don't have BPD in some ways. Also- there is learned behavior from their mother- which can remind him of her too. However, you may be able to step in here better than DH can if he's not able to handle feeling rejected by his teen age girls even if that's a common behavior at this stage. He may not have the emotional strenght you wish he had.

I can't remember where I heard this thing about how when a parent is checked out, the child, not being able to locate the cause, assumes that the problem must be internal. It must be us if we can't find the fault with the parent. I wonder if that's happening a bit here?


I have these feelings in our blended family, too. And vice versa, when I see SD19 manipulating H and he doesn't recognize it, or dismisses it, that can be a level 8, 9, 10 feeling for me, too. Though that is becoming more rare, thankfully.


Have you had a therapist suggest how to manage these feelings in the moment?


Feelings disabled is a good way to describe this.

I can see why experiencing anger would feel scary.



I wonder what a T would recommend is best. Because there's what's best for kells76 ... is that what is also best for the blended dynamic? And for your marriage?

I found in our dynamic, if I took a giant step back, it created a space for H to experience uncertainty (and anxiety) and that led him to seek me out for knowledge/support.

It made me feel anxious at first, and took self-control to do that (initially) and then honestly? It was freeing, though not easy to get there.

Some of the stuff you describe with trauma seems very visceral. Have you looked into body-based therapies? I found the talk therapy path to have limitations. It was great for crisis and counseling through complex family scenarios. But to get to the deeply buried trauma stuff somatic experiencing (SE) therapy is what ultimately worked.

Since this is a recurring stress, trauma or anxiety, there's a med propranolol (beta-blocker) that moderates the impact of flashbacks.  In some way it keeps the memory of incidents from being replayed in your head at the same high intensity as before.

Whether this is a wise option for you, your medical doctor, specialist or psychologist might consider this as an option?

Hi FD, thanks for the suggestion. Interestingly, if these are flashbacks, they're contentless -- there isn't a specific memory or person in my mind. And also, interestingly, I have a content-full but totally processed traumatic incident to compare it to. Our housemate died at our house a couple of years ago, and I was the one who found him. It was traumatic at first but now I can think about it as "something sad that happened a long time ago". Whatever is coming up now, the contentless stuff, feels like an 11/10 for paralyzing fear, but remembering the actual memory of our housemate is down to a 2/10.
My mom's mom died when I was just a baby, so I wonder if my mom was unavailable to infant me because of her grief. Maybe that would be why the trauma is contentless, because I was too little to make any memories.

Hi kells,

Emotional flashbacks don't have to be tied to a specific conscious memory. For instance, in therapy I processed emotions surrounding my mother's suicide attempt and subsequent disability which happened when I was two. I have no memory of the actual event but my therapist explained that I had "emotional memory".

I think it's entirely possible you have emotional memory from infancy or childhood that isn't tied to a specific conscious memory.

Most of my childhood trauma is not tied to a single or several traumatic events but rather, the collective experience of feeling fearful and emotionally unsafe- complex trauma.

My baby sister died when I was three, leading to my mom spending a year in bed depressed. Not her fault and understandable, but it did cause me lifelong damage.

Do you have any information about how you dealt with this as a toddler? I had to have a couple of difficult talks with my older brother and sister, mom and dad about this and it was enlightening. Hearing them describe how I acted in dealing with this is a blueprint for how I still act in my adult relationships.

I would suggest buying a copy of "The Body Keeps The Score". Not light reading, but very insightful about childhood and other trauma.

I can't say enough about this book if you have emotional memory or body-based trauma.

It helps explain the 11/10 type reactions and some of the potential therapies that can help heal.

I made the suggestion to ask a professional whether that med might help your situational events not feel so overwhelming or devastating.  I mean, take the edge off the fear or whatever you're feeling.

Looking back over my years of commenting, I've often wondered whether it would help treating many with PDs too, I know mine seemed to relive traumas over and over.  She never seemed to really forgive and let go, she would demand apologies for the same things, over and over too.

You got this! *hugs*

I called my older sister the other night, asking her if she remembers anything from when I was a baby (around when my mom's mom died). I shared that I've been dealing with panic attack type stuff and am trying to figure myself out. She is usually pretty closed off at family functions but she was pretty open with me on the phone. She has had some memories that have led her to believe that she was also molested by my mom's dad, who molested my mom. I didn't know that about my sister.
My sister feels a lot of anger towards my parents because she had a conversation with them in the last year or two about our family dynamics, and she felt really shut down by them. I suspect my mom would feel overwhelming guilt and shame if she faced what happened to my sister. My dad tends to enable and protect my mom.
I'm not sure what I expected from the phone call... I did feel heard and supported and cared about by my sister. It's just a lot to learn. I feel for her, and feel sad for us when we were young. I definitely haven't processed what she shared with me.
I guess when it rains it pours.

I had this conversation with D23 (who is a mini-me when it comes to thinking and feelings) just a couple nights ago.

And before I forget, let's just say that there are times with FFw's frustrations with me are "valid" (how is that for being polite and easy with me...   :(  )   Sometimes when I need to break some tension I'll say something like "It can be easy to have to raise me and be married to me at the same time" (lots of her "discussions" with D23 sometimes sound like FFw and me)

Anyway...so lots of my discussions with D23 are like the 50 year old me talking to my 20 year old self and me trying to think what I should say and what I would have actually listened to when I was in my 20s.   So...D23 and I like to "figure things out"...to a very small degree of detail. (and usually we can)

One of the things I'm still not too good at and I was encouraging D23..is that there are times when you try to figure relationship stuff out and it just can't be done, and we get frustrated (again to be polite).

Well...from time to time I'm good at just saying "that sucks...that shouldn't have happened..I don't know why that happened (and probably never will)...but I need to care for myself right now, rather than continue to try to figure it out"

Kells76  I'm not suggesting you are at that point yet, but I am encouraging you to keep that in mind and "take it slow".  Remember this stuff is all in your past...so there is no rush.  You can take time off from "figuring it out"..."it" will still be there.

Note:  I'm glad you have some in your family that seem open with their point of view.  Being shut down or having loved ones being "closed off" just sucks.

Also remember...your point of view doesn't have to match any of those people.

We think the world of you here at BPDfamily!  You always seems to be there for others..

Remember...

We are here for you!   :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

Best,

FF

Gosh Kells- when it rains it floods.

Molestation is a huge family "secret" and the shame involved is tremendous. But it's a huge step on your sister's part to bring that into the light. I personally think protecting a family secret - whatever that is- is a source of dysfunction and shame and change begins with shedding light on it.

My mother's FOO is very protective of her and acting as if my mother is just fine is a family pattern. We were not allowed to discuss her behavior at all. Her FOO is very protective of her. I don't know if they even know why as it's a pattern in their family.

Take care of yourself. This is huge. It didn't have to happen to you to create issues. Shame and secrecy on their own are difficult in families.

FOO does have a significant impact.  I recall a few things my ex told me about her M & SF's patterns.  After I came here I suspect theirs lasted so long because it was a NPD/BPD relationship that fed off each other.

• SF said if she told anyone then she would be the one in trouble.
• SF said if she didn't let him do it then he would do it to her sister.
• She and her sis never revealed this to each other until grown.
• Mother didn't want to lose SF financial support so she told her minor girls (boys lived with F, how convenient) if they did anything with her H then they'd be kicked out.

This was extreme, my FOO didn't come close to that but, then again, my Sis says she was the Rememberer and I was the Forgetter, so who knows, maybe that's why I'm still here 15+ years later.  Your family dysfunction was probably less for all we know but still could have had an impact.