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It has been a very long time since I have posted. Going through a divorce after separation and reconciliation attempt. STBX I believe is borderline and wants to take S5 to play therapy on his time. Does anyone know if there is a way legally make it where the play therapy cannot be used for court? It seems STBX has been manipulating S5 to ask about the custody schedule every time he returns home to me. I don't think this is normal behavior for a 5 year old, but not sure if play therapist will realize what is going on and STBX will use therapy to get more custody time with S5. Thank you for any advice!

Hey, welcome back.

Did you end up filing for divorce first? If I'm reading your older posts correctly, your son's dad had threatened to file if you didn't "get with his program"?

You mention STBX wants to take S5 to play therapy on his time. Has he acted on this yet? Sometimes pwBPD can say all kinds of things that they are definitely going to do... and they don't follow through.


I think so; it's not uncommon for T's to not testify, so that the T is just for the client's benefit. I do not know the exact mechanism of how that happens, though.

Has your STBX gotten in touch with a specific T yet?

Is the divorce final? If not, you both have equal rights regarding your son. So, there'd be nothing stopping you from getting in touch with any T your STBX takes your son to. You would also have rights to take your son to that same T on your own time.


Correct; not normal for a 5YO. Make sure to document in a secure location (google drive doc, etc) dates, schedule, and what S5 says when.


Some T's are snowed by pwBPD, but not all are. Again, a lot hinges on whether your STBX has acted on this or whether it's a lot of talk from him right now.

Remind me what the time split is for your son with you and your son with his dad?

Good to hear from you again;

kells76

Thank you Kells76 :hi:

I filed first and moved with S5 to my parents. COVID hit at we tried to live in the same house again 6 months and he started making threats and being very controlling again and now we are separated again and the divorce was still on file.

He scheduled with the therapist and told me I had an hour to answer him. I was supposed to set up the appoinment, per the DC, but it was taking a long time to find someone with covid issues and no one wanting to take a child whose parents have an open court case.

What does snowed mean?

Time split is he has him Sun 8:00-Tues 8:00, but he pressed to have him in in-person school and now I gave him 3 hours of make up time for the 3 hours he is in school on top of that. He happened to schedule with the therapist during his make up time for school, which I should not have given him, but am trying to avoid court and hang on to as much time as I can for as long as I can and trying to appease him.

OK, just to make sure I'm tracking:

What does "per the DC" mean? Is it per the divorce decree? Or other?

Is there an interim parenting plan while you guys are separated? And is it a "legal separation"?

Working to understand how much you are legally obligated to do... especially if the divorce is on file but not finalized. There isn't a "right or wrong" answer, just me understanding the moving pieces is all.

So, STBX scheduled an appt with a T... then told you you had an hour to... agree with him? Confirm the appt? Disagree? Other? Gee, sounds controlling  :(. I rarely if ever hear of any official parenting plan requiring any kind of response in 1 hour. 24 hrs is typical.

Back for more later...

DC= Domestic Conciliator - or what used to be called Limited Case Manager

Interim Agreement - There was a recommendation made by the DC that he attend play therapy (I actually requested it). She recommended I research a therapist and S5 enter counseling with an agreed provider. I kept running into trouble finding someone, as STBX did not want son in teletherapy, therapists who were seeing patients in person were booking up by the time I got back with them, and several did not want to take S5 because our divorce was still open and they don't take kids with parents who have open divorce cases. STBX called, made an appointment with someone who can only see S5 during his parenting block and told me I needed to confirm within an hour. I didn't realize the therapist could only see S5 on Tuesdays, which is now his block and I agreed, then after calling the therapist office I found out about the Tuesday thing and told him I was not comfortable with it. He is still sending me messages through the app trying to get me to agree to this therapist he set up. I do not trust his motives, as S5 talks about the visitation schedule every time he comes back from seeing his dad, but doesn't talk more about it for the next few days, which leads me to believe he is being coached to tell a therapist he wants more time with his dad because this does not seem like a coincidence.

I was coached when my kids were little to tell them that the visitation schedule was set by the judge, and I had to abide by what the judge said so I didn't get in trouble.

If your agreement said that you were supposed to pick the therapist, then you get to pick the therapist.  Your instincts are right not to trust kiddo to only go with your ex.

Therapists usually don't want to get swept up into contentious custody battles ... my son's T had us sign a waiver that we would not subpoena her to testify in court.

Good therapists typically insist on meeting with both parents. There may even be items in the state's ethics that specify this.

I think it's ok to express to a DC that you have concerns if the play therapist does not ask to meet with you (if that happens), or express your concerns if your ex refuses to sign the waiver.

DCs and people like that want to see which parents have a solutions mindset, so if you were to document your concerns about S5 seeing a play therapist that both parents won't have a chance to meet, sharing appointment times, you'd like to propose another therapist, even though it's taking longer than you had hoped.

Play therapy can also be revealing in ways that talk therapy isn't.

My son and his therapist used to throw a stuffed football back and forth and (then) S9 threw it too hard and it hit something and knocked it over. He got scared and ran and hid, then cried. The T was looking for that kind of extreme reaction and she worked with him to get him through it. 

He told her he was going to get in trouble, and she asked him who was going to be mad if she wasn't, and what happens when people get mad at him, how does he feel.

It's more like they look for emotions and where they're coming from, and how to manage them.

As opposed to, say, believing a 5 year old when he says, "I need to talk to someone about changing the custody schedule."
 
Even so, I would make sure that the play therapist is able to meet with both parents, and that you're comfortable with whomever is picked.

"I'd like to meet with the play therapist, so Tuesday sounds good. You can meet him/her then and I'll follow up to make an appointment for myself after. We can go from there. Let's make sure we both feel good about who we go with."

OK, back for a bit.

re: "snowing" someone:

IDK if it's just an idiomatic expression where I'm from. I've understood it to mean "trying to blind someone to something by using a blizzard of words". It can also mean to use sophisticated-sounding vocabulary and language to try to conceal the truth. If you can imagine a blizzard of word snowflakes coming from a pwBPD, and imagine trying to "see through it", that's sort of what I'm thinking. It's a fear that many of us here have -- that the pwBPD in our lives will use words in such a way and in such a volume that professionals/others won't see past the words to the truth.


LnL's phrasing suggestion is a nice example of using the energy of what your STBX asserts he wants, in a way that benefits your son (and you). He is saying all these words about wanting play therapy for S5. I suspect he anticipates resistance from you, and he wants that, in a weird way. He is trying to cast you in a role in the "play" he is trying to manage -- the play of how STBX is the good guy. He needs a villain and will never accept that it's actually HIMSELF. Someone must be cast as "the villain" in "the play about the heroic STBX" and whether consciously or not, he thinks that if he suggests something, you'll oppose it.

He wants you to oppose T for your S5 so that he can step into the role of "heroic father fighting for what's best for victimized S5".

He won't expect you to agree with him... in fact, probably deep down, he kind of doesn't want you to -- to meet a psychological need of his.

When you agree and "roll with" his suggestion... it would not surprise me at all if he found ways to undermine himself, to argue against his own position, to not follow through with some or all of the T's recommendations, etc.

If you can document in email (not in person or by voice phone call!) that he sort of suggested play T and you agree it would benefit S5, and you are amenable to moving forward taking responsibility for your own end (i.e. you schedule your own appts, he schedules his own appts)... my gut feeling is that's not what he really wants.

So I wouldn't worry a ton about moving forward with play T for S5 as long as you generally feel good about the T. It won't take long for your STBX to show his true colors -- which are that he isn't really about problem solving or doing what's best for the kids. He's all about casting people into rigid roles in the play about himself, and he "needs" you to fight him in order for him to have the satisfaction that "yes, he is the hero, and you are the villain".

Anyway, my 2 cents after LnL's very helpful post.

"I was coached when my kids were little to tell them that the visitation schedule was set by the judge, and I had to abide by what the judge said so I didn't get in trouble."

I have been wondering what to say to him all along. S5, upon returning home from his dad's, always asks about the visitation schedule within 15 minutes of entering the house. My instincts tell me STBX is constantly talking about it with him, as he has also said that his dad is going to get the schedule changed to this or that... It is so frustrating. One time he came in and literally screamed, almost immediately after a visit with his dad, for nearly an hour, saying he wanted the schedule changed and asked who makes the schedule. I thought I was not supposed to mention court to him, so I just told him there is a reason for why the schedule is what it is and if it changes I will let him know.

"If your agreement said that you were supposed to pick the therapist, then you get to pick the therapist.  Your instincts are right not to trust kiddo to only go with your ex."

Thank you for the validation. Was hoping it wasn't me being paranoid.

"If you can document in email (not in person or by voice phone call!) that he sort of suggested play T and you agree it would benefit S5, and you are amenable to moving forward taking responsibility for your own end (i.e. you schedule your own appts, he schedules his own appts)... my gut feeling is that's not what he really wants."

I like that idea. He can take him for some visits and I can take him for others. I hadn't thought of that. I was thinking we would both be there at all appointments and that could be awkward for S5 too, so that was a concern of mine and seems like a great solution. Thank you  *)

There is a real possibility that if your ex is allowed to choose a T for the child, he's likely to pick one he feels could be gullible or easily "snowed".

Over time we've found a way to get a reputable T and for the court also to be happy about it.  You see, courts like when both parents participate in a decision like this.  This is how to do it.

You investigate the local therapists (for kids I'd use the phrase counselors) and determine which have the best reputation with courts or other professionals.  Also verify they're on an accepted health plan.  Then you make a short list of these vetted professionals and let your ex choose from among that vetted list.  (Of course, you don't tell ex you've pre-screened them, that would be TMI - too much information that could sabotage your strategy.  Just say you've confirmed they're in-network with the insurance and leave it at that.)

Hi kells76,

I wouldn't worry too much about him coaching your S. Any good child T knows what to do to get the real truth. Your S might repeat stories. If it's not a story he participated in, he won't be able to keep the facts straight.

This is just a thought.
The next time your son comes in and is focused on the schedule, you can have a nice schedule written out and say, "Ok, let's look at the schedule." just be matter of fact. These are the days I get to enjoy being with you and these are the days that you stay with dad. You could ask him what part of the schedule bothers him and try to explain in language that is appropriate for his age. "We both love you and want to be with you, so we have to share." Maybe even put the schedule on the refrigerator. Always talk about his dad in a positive way, even if he doesn't do the same .Include talking about his dad sometimes in play. Like" hey, this car looks like dads." Children pick up on body language and expressions. I know it is hard to do when your SBEX is being so awful, but this is the most loving thing you can do for him. Maybe his dad will pick up your niceness and then will try to be a nice too, so he doesn't look like the bad guy. Children should not listen or be part of adult issues,  don't discuss important things in front of him, he is listening. Children are so smart and they pick up on much more then you would think. If you are already doin this, then good for you!

I am not a  T so you might want to go over it with one of them. I have taught preschool for 29 years.

 Good Luck
B53

I recently began engaging with a play therapist dealing with our 5-10 year old child; their professionalism has not been astounding, but they've not done anything wrong - just...not really done much beyond "There's a pile of toys, talk about stuff if you want I'll sit over here"...but ours is a strange situation. On the whole, I'd say I'm a small voice in favour of trusting the play therapist to not get involved in conspiratorial drama.

One minor hurdle you'll face is that while society is generally accustomed to more quickly assuming men are selfish jerks than women...they're also generally accustomed to more quickly assuming that women are mentally ill, especially with a diagnosis as heavily gendered as BPD. So while they may think he's weird/bad, it's less likely that their mind will jump to "This guy acts like a BPD" even if they have experience with BPD, simply because most of their experience will have been a certain type of female.  I'm not sure how to get past that blind spot.