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Well, it's my own fault. Three weeks ago or so I reached out to him because we're in the middle of a heatwave and I still had his summer clothes. I sent him a two-line email asking him what I should do with them. He replied verbosely and suggested to come pick them up, though he seemed unsure of whether that was a good idea. Apart from that, his message was a slew of the usual self-congratulatory BS I'd grown accustomed to. No hostility, just his pseudo-empathetic condescension. I felt sick afterwards.

After a few days of thinking it over (the temptation to see him was considerable despite it all), I carefully folded his stuff, put it into a box, adding a note telling him that I'd realised that he had actually hurt me with both separations, the constant oscillation between idealisation and devaluation, and his string of broken promises, and that I needed time to heal myself. I also told him to discard the one personal item he still had from me.

Instead of doing so, he, too, sent it back to me; stuffed into a box which included a creased note.

He says he's happy to have heard from me, and that he appreciates my having taken the time to send him his belongings. (I don't think he's been as polite in a year's time.) He goes on (translation):

"Not, that you'd need it, but you have my full understanding. I'm sincerely sorry to have caused you such pain; I'll endeavour to maintain the distance just as consistently, and I wish you a successful healing process, no matter where it may lead you.

Should this be farewell, please always be well.

(Otherwise, too.)"

Getting this parcel briefly dredged up a lot of bad feelings. At least he's finally taken some responsibility verbally, I guess. That's a first. Though knowing him, that's what he'll leave it at.

If someone truly loved you, wouldn't they do more? Wouldn't they try to make up for the whole thing with actions? Perhaps my notions of love are fantastical.

My fraternal best friend is currently overseas but responded with rage when I told him: "As if you need that a$$clown's understanding! He can :cursing: off already!" That was cathartic.

Just wanted to post this here, for my own records and sanity, and in case there's a follow-up. Which, judging from other people's stories, isn't entirely unlikely.

Sappho, I was going to ask you what you meant with "pseudo-empathetic condescension".

The reason I wanted to ask is because I was wondering if you meant something that I often felt, and that felt wrong somehow, although I couldn't put my finger on why: everytime my BPD ex pushed me away or broke off contact, she would use words that seemed kind, respectful and balanced. When I sent a copy to some friends, for example, they would say "well that is actually a sweet, respectful and kind way to break it off".

Those messages would really p*ss me off, because I always felt like they were actually heartless and cruel, given the circumstances, but they were worded in a way that you could not point out that the message was cruel. And if you would, you would be the one that was stirring up things or creating conflict.

Basically, the messages would say something along the lines of "You deserve a love I am uncapable of giving you at the moment, so I should give you up and let you go. You deserve better. You deserve the freedom to go on and live your life, and I need to free you from your pain, frustrations and fear."

And all I could think would be "screw you! This is a load of bullsh*t - you are not uncapable. You just choose not to commit, and you know damn well that exactly this will cause me deep pain, frustration and fear". Put in other words, these messages conveyed how unimportant I was to her, but made her come out like a compassionate saint. And yeah, that really made me angry.

I wonder if that's what you meant with "pseudo-empathetic condescension".

Either way, to be honest, his reaction would p*ss me off in the same way, for the same reasons. Yeah, it's dowsed in saccharine words, but in reality it's a cold and heartless message. I think the crux is the "I am sincerely sorry to have caused you such pain." No way. When you are truly sincerely sorry, you make a big effort to express this. You take actions. You write loong and insightful letters of apology and try to make things right, to the extent possible.

Putting your sincere regret into a simple, distant statement without showing any true shame or regret on his part is exactly what you say. It's condescending. And it's pseudo-empathetic, which makes things even worse. Because they can easily argue it's heartfelt, and if you point out that it's not, YOU're the difficult person. And to be honest, the way he writes that stuff makes it feel as if HE has noo trouble or regret about having lost you. Aaaagh, so manipulative. I would be really angry in your place.

My goodness, my ex was a superstar at this. She would manipulate, tease me and be unreasonable until I broke, and then leave incredibly mature sounding, reasonable message at the end explaining that we can't move forward.

Her normal mode with me is very flirty, teasing, flaky, hard to pin down, loving, sensitive, cute... but fragile, immature,  incapable of deep discussion or reasonable conversations considering both sides that did not allow us to make any progress.

This would always inevitably lead to a terrible situation where I'm naturally frustrated.

Then once the terrible situation has unfolded, suddenly the mature, forward thinking, sane, balanced and reasonable woman comes out to play, explaining how unstable our relationship is, how it wouldn't work, that our communication is poor and that nobody is to blame and it's unhealthy. Even her typing would change.

Every time it caught me off guard. It's like they know exactly what you want, but will only give it to you as a last **** you while breaking up with you. Leaving you thinking about them and showing you what you could've had. As if you've driven this mature person away from you and the whole thing is just a matter of circumstance (and not a situation they created).

It makes the breakup so frustrating, because the entire time you're with them, you're looking for the reasonable side to come out and help you move forward with your issues, but it never does. And finally, when you're at breaking point, the condescending scholar side comes out to put the whole thing neatly to bed and you're like "WHAT?". It makes you feel like a crazy person. Especially when you've put up with their behaviours for so long.

I don't buy for a second any of those messages from my ex, they're forms of punishment in my opinion and don't come from a place of sincerity.

This thread is going to places I didn't expect! tvda and IntoTheWind, you've both given me a lot of food for thought.


Yes, this exactly! You put it so well. I felt sick after reading his post-breakup email to me and didn't know why. This is it.

I only have one close friend, but luckily in this regard, he's of a cynical nature sees through BS like my ex's right away. It's terrible to be invalidated by one's own friends. But of course it's difficult for outsiders when they don't have the complete picture. And pwBPD often do know how to turn the "charm" on. There's a high comorbidity with narcissistic traits, after all, and narcissists unfortunately tend to have that manipulative charisma.


Yes again! This exactly! That was a repeating pattern during our relationship. Not just the post-breakup messages, but also every single argument we had. He would treat me poorly, and when I slipped up from my usual rational self, he'd instantly use this to justify further poor treatment. Vicious cycle.


Yes, yes and yes. It's uncanny. The last email my ex sent me before I reached out was a bombastic, verbose tractate about why we couldn't be together -- that I couldn't accompany him without losing myself, and that he couldn't be there for me without "perishing".

And you know what triggered the whole thing? That I wanted to see him two nights a week, and that I had complained to him how he hadn't even sent me a single WhatsApp message when I was going through a really rough time. That's it! Two nights a week and one message, that was "too much" of an effort for him! For the person he allegedly loved, who was the "love of his life"! That would have made him "perish"!

He went on to detail how he'd console himself that, while we'd be picking up the shards of our existence alone, we'd be looking at the same moon, blah blah blah... Idiot.


You're so right! See, I was on the brink of saying "well, at least he's taking responsibility for once". But he's not. He's taking the easy way out, as always, unable to deal with the damage he's caused. A rotten après moi, le deluge attitude.


I definitely am now.

I can certainly empathize with all of the above.

To give you a little background. I knew nothing about BPD until after the breakup of our four and a half year relationship. I certainly knew something was wrong, as most of the symptoms were there. My ex is highly functioning, an over achiever, attractive with a great personality. She has a solid group of women friends going back more than ten years. She is a great mom to her teenage son. As with most of us, I was her intense focus (too much, an obsession) only person she was interested in. She also was frustrated because I didn't love her like she loved me. Most of us know this as well. She thanks me one Sunday after I attended a party with her at her best friend's house and tells me how loved she felt. The next day, she explodes at me over a work issue. She works for me. We, mostly she, transformed my business over the last four and a half years. Three weeks later she breaks up with me. A week later she tells me she has gone out with someone, he checks all the boxes. Her son knows about it, her two closest girlfriends know about it. Needless to say, I am knocked off my feet. She acts as if she has done nothing wrong. My fault for not planning our future together. She continues to want to be friends and is sad that I won't. Says she knows it's hard, but when I am ready to be her friend she will be right there waiting for me. We were friends before the relationship. I have gone NC as much as possible. I only respond to work questions of relevance via text or email. I will not take her phone calls. She was sobbing a couple of weeks ago (in voicemails) when she realized I wouldn't talk calls. She is being super polite in texts. She sent a personal one the other day recounting a story about her son and said she knew of no one that would appreciate it more than me and I was missed. I didn't respond.

My point in all of this... breakups are not easy. We all say we want closure, but what we really want is for our exes to feel great remorse, come back to us on bended knee. It is not realistic, nonBPD or BPD. My breakup was just under three months ago. I still struggle with it and am easily triggered by these communications. I have come to realize, that my ex has no empathy and doesn't think in a normal pattern where this is concerned. Makes sense as it would mean she would have to face it. To expect otherwise is foolish. We have to let it all go. That would be true in any breakup. We have to stop holding onto hopes of that apology, them coming back, all of it. The key is to focus on ourselves. These relationships do a number on our self-esteem. It will take work to get past it. But it is the only choice. I have had several bad breakups and held onto that anger, sorrow and wounded self for years. I was the only one that suffered. It is the same with the anger we have for our exes. I still do, but trying to make it a smaller part of my thoughts every day. You can hold onto it all and it will eat you up or toss it onto the wind and learn from the experience. Heal ourselves, we can't put the energy into trying to figure out someone else. All of those emotions are a normal grief response to the death of our relationship. Use it as a driver to better yourself. It can be a great motivating force unlike any other. Holding onto it can literally kill you. Become the best you that you can. That old saying, the best revenge is a life well lived. I hate to think of it as revenge, as I think to seek revenge is never a good thing. But a life well lived, now that is something to strive for. We have two choices, stay in it all and become a doormat and then a shell of person or grow a spine, look for that love inward. It will attract many good things in life. We don't need someone to complete us. We are that. Let's find someone that compliments us and walks along side us.

Here are a couple of good quotes from another site dealing with breakups:

Don’t ever seek an explanation from the person who broke your heart. Ever. This rule can never be broken. If you’re dealing with a person who has proven to have the capacity to dishonor, deceive, and hurt you, they are never, I repeat never, going to have the capacity to empathize with you in the way that you want and deserve.

Don’t ever give people who dishonored you a reaction. They don’t have anything new to say and neither do you.


Rev posted a great response to my post and question under the first red flag thread. It is worth looking at.

My two cents worth.

Same here. Now I wish there was a thread for those "breakup messages". I wonder if they're a common theme.


During our relationship, my ex and I had several discussions about the value of choosing words carefully, not just in arguments, but as an expression of style and respect for the other person. My ex had a habit of butchering his native language in various ways, largely speaking like a 13-year-old when we were alone, and though I never reprimanded him for it (to each their own), he never ceased to mock my "old-fashioned" ways.

Then his post-breakup email arrived, and I couldn't trust my eyes. It was as if he had affected to impersonate a 19th-century poet (with almost comically poor results, but still). Turgid, sententious, verbose. A part of me was almost impressed; I could tell it had taken him a long time to craft the message, but I frankly hadn't thought he had it in him at all.


This rings so incredibly true.


By Jove, the "condescending scholar" must be some kind of BPD archetype. It was the reason for our first major argument, after which I profoundly felt something was "off". My ex lectured, scorned and patronised me for something that, in hindsight, hadn't even been a questionable remark from my side, and I remember feeling like a stupid, berated child. He left and sent me a long string of messages, telling me that I shouldn't be feeling that way, and trying to backtrack on some of his intensity. When I replied that I hadn't liked how this "argument" (i. e. one-sided scolding) had been conducted, he accused me of creating drama, calling me overly sensitive, and showed the most self-righteous indignance at my "accusations".

He kept treating me coldly (I still shudder when I re-read those messages), and I ended up apologising to him for no reason at all.

That was the first crack that showed.


Right on.

what would you have liked to see happen?

There’s a million options.

Last time I broke my partner’s heart by ending the relationship, I put in hours of effort to write her a big letter. To profoundly thank her for the beautiful moments and growth together. To wish her the best. To let her know that I was there to talk to, even about our breakup, as much as she wanted to. To tell her that she was the best, deepest and most mature relationship I ever had, and that I hoped to find someone else like her.

It wasn’t hard. It came naturally. It was a sincere act of giving and gratitude.

p.s. this breakup was due to irreconcilable differences in opinion regarding starting a family.

In agreement with what's been said above: yes, I truly believe that these "pseudo-empathetic condescending" messages are punishment, under a hypocritical guise.

To me the hidden message was always "Oh, so you think you can criticise me, make demands and try to enforce boundaries? I'll show you what happens when you do that."

And then they lash out, in a very polite but cold form, that above all is meant to convey how little you mean to them. While reserving the image of a saint for them.

For those who haven't done so yet, it might be interesting to look up on a typical BPD trait: impressionistic speech or portrayal of emotions. Meaning they use big, emotional words, but at the same time everything seems to stay blurry and superficial...

My exBPD was the queen of impressionistic speech, saying things like "now that I'm away from you I feel at peace. But my soul is not at peace without you". Fancy words, highly emotionally or spiritually charged, but what does it actually mean? Anyone have a clue?

Another impressionistic jewel: "I hope you're willing to give me the freedom to find my love for you again." Seriously: what the h*ll do things like that mean? No idea! It sounds deep. It talks about finding love. But in the end it's just about dating another guy - but wrapped in such a confusing form that it takes a day before you realise exactly what the BPD is trying to say here.

This is exactly how I read them too. I could never put my finger on why the messages felt so cold and dissatisfying, but this is exactly why. The abusive nature of my relationship was the only thing that was consistent, so why would their exit be any different? As the FOG fades, more things like this will come to light.

It's so interesting that this is such a common theme amongst them. I genuinely just thought it was me that felt this way about the breakup messages. Something instinctively told me "this is not right", a feeling I felt so many times whilst with my exGfWBPD.

I'd love to see that. I actually deleted all of my conversations with my ex or I'd post mine. There was plenty of subject matter there to study but I found myself rereading them looking for answers in an unhealthy way.

This is interesting to me.  My uBPDw has a teaching degree and used to fancy herself a writer, and I read an awful lot of what she wrote prior to my coming along and it was good.  I enjoyed reading it.  The emails we had were fine.  When the "I do" switch was flipped, everything about her written word went to hell.  No more capital letters, no more punctuation, deliberately poor syntax.  This may sound foolish, but I tried to explain to her how this is disrespectful because it's a waste of my time to have to read things over-and-over only to find that it's still unintelligible, and it's particularly dumbfounding because I know she didn't used to write like that.  It was also at this time, after a very distorted argument, that she declared, "words don't have any specific meaning, a word can mean anything you want it to" and, quite frankly, that kind of thinking scared me because there is no limit to where that can be used as a tool.

So yes, if "old fashioned" means speaking the Queen's English, I have been mocked for that, and she is the one with an education.  I'm just a slob with a high school diploma.  All I can attribute this shift to is it's another attempt at garnering negative attention so there is some new pointless, fabricated conflict to prosecute.  It is engineered to make me have to reply, "I don't understand" or call her for clarification for the express purpose of her then being able to play the role of the victim.  Now that we have kids it has taken on a whole new dynamic.  I have corrected them when I caught them using some poor form of grammar only to find they picked it up from her, so now me trying to teach my kids to do better is met with accusations that I am only doing so to disparage her, yet she will persist with her objectionable ways (defined as "objectionable" because she is not ignorant of what she is doing).  It's just water off a duck's back these days.  I say, "Right is right and wrong is wrong -- you are the architect of your own problems".  The fun never stops!

  

tvda put it well. To at least receive a long letter of apology from my ex, him owning everything he did instead of hiding behind excuses.

Denial can be a sweet feeling. He's never been diagnosed to my knowledge (though I know the relationship pattern intimately, from my diagnosed high school best friend, and it matches uncannily). Some days I like to think "He's just immature, he's going through a lot, the pain of separation is going to be the catalyst he needs to finally get a grip on his life, and we he does, he'll be back as a new and improved him, and live up to all the promises he's made".

Strangely enough, I know with full certainty that he will come back. I've never been so certain about anything in my life. When he does, of course, I hope it will be for the reasons outlined above, and not as a result of a pathological desire recycle.

I've gone through a lot in life but I've always found that everything has happened for a reason, even though it wasn't obvious to me at the time; eventually it all made sense. The whole thing has taught me a lot about myself, especially my weaknesses, which I probably wouldn't ever have tackled otherwise. It also led to a deeper spiritual understanding of the world (and this is coming from a non-religious agnosticist).

What can I say, perhaps I'm just a sucker for happy endings  lol

Fascinating. Something similar happened with my ex. He always made an effort to speak properly while we knew one another professionally, and when we got together, he suddenly started speaking like a teenager. I chalked it up to the professional-private divide. But it went far deeper than that. The messages we exchanged showed a strange pattern: well-written during idealisation phases, sloppy during devaluation phases.


Uncanny, we had a similar discussion once. I found this "reasoning" unsettlingly psychotic.

 
The issue with kids picking up on such mannerisms was always one of my concerns. I'm sorry to hear that you're going through this. Kudos to you for making the best of the situation.

Impressionistic speech is a great keyword, thanks!

It's all too familiar. For example, my ex and I would be waking up on a beautiful Sunday morning, the sun shining, and he'd suddenly say: "I don't know whether you're a part of my future. Don't get me wrong, I want you to be; I just don't know whether you will be." When I reassured him that I wasn't going anywhere, it turned out that it was him being unsure of it after all...

The post break-up email was full of the same nonsense. I'll paraphrase:

"I've taken my time to reply, because I actually don't want to say good-bye. I already miss you tremendously, and this certainly won't change in the near future. I don't want this separation, either. I've never felt for anyone what I feel for you.

Now that raises the question why we are where we're at.

I've had to think about this for a long time. The answer is that our paths to happiness run in parallel at the moment, that I can't cross without ruining myself, while you're unable to accompany me without perishing.

(...)

I am struggling. I've never managed to make this credible to you. The changes I've gone through [since our getting together] result in a fundamental unrest und permanent misery, which has activated my depressive vein in a manner long unseen. Rest assured, this misery is not linked to the time with you; on the contrary, the time with you is magical, to be unable to enjoy it fully is painful, and not having you around is actually making it worse.

However, the circumstances are irreconcilable. You're looking for a shoulder to lean on, but I feel inadequate. A lot about you inspires me to become a greater, better human being, but this generally beautiful impulse enters into conflict with the abovementioned inner turmoil, and thus is no foundation for the temple which is supposed to house your sensitive, tender, admirable soul."

He goes on to ramble on about circumstances, about how he'll console himself that we'll be "looking at the same moon", and that he wishes me the best, whatever it may be.

The actual, real-life "problem" was that he was simply unwilling to see me twice a week and to send a text every now and again. That was as low as I could lower my standards for a relationship. And he couldn't even handle that.

Sappho,

I really appreciate you sharing this e-mail.

My husband has never been able to fully express himself, he gets bottled up and then just rages and then expects me to decipher his feelings that are intertwined with rage and a lot of words said that are not in the realm of reality (his anger/jealousy justifications circling back to a person I dated 10 years ago, before we had even met).  However he has expressed that he feels inadequate.

I do believe the feelings your partner shared are similar to that of my husbands, inner torment, and they’re just not able to be released.  The night we had our separation discussion he could only say that he was not happy.  Not why, or if there’s something that can be worked on.  And then he just kept saying he was ‘so torn’.  That he was ‘losing his rock’. 

Having a few weeks of space and time I realize more and more the compromises of myself I have made and the loss of myself I have experienced.  The limitations they experience are so great, and giving of myself more and more just exhausted me, and tempered his rage a bit, but ‘fixed’ nothing.

It's eerie, I was told exactly the same things, that he was unhappy but didn't know why, that he wasn't sure whether anything could be improved, that we wanted all the same things but somehow it wouldn't work (he sometimes blamed it on "timing"). And also, that he was "losing his rock"!


The loss of self is the most devasting aspect of these relationships, I find. Even if you didn't want to at first, they lure you into merging with them, only for them to sabotage the relationship when you oblige; you try to appease, to see it their way, as a consequence you become more and more like them, and when they eventually leave, it feels as if a huge part of yourself has been cut off. They leave you so, so drained.

Wow Sappho... Your examples of impressionist speech are so similar to what I've had to hear or read... Even literally including the "we'll always be looking at the same moon"...

Soo much fuzzy blurry words that in the end only leave you thinking "so WHY exactly are you breaking up with me, if it's going to make you so unhappy?" They truly defy all logic...

tvda, you and I probably dodged major bullets. I think it was Couper, one of the married members, who spoke of a "commuted sentence".

My ex appears to have blocked me on WhatsApp the day he sent off the parcel, three days ago.

We'll see how long it'll last.

Sappho, I agree on dodging a major bullet. It's funny, I had started thinking that there was no way my relationship could go into the long term future. Interesting how the trauma bond works on your mind. You know you are better off, but still miss it.

That e-mail is unbelievably narcissistic.

Crikey, you're right. I've never read it this way. But it's true -- everything is all about him. Just like our relationship was. (And his relationship before that -- with a woman who had no interests of her own and copied everything he did. I refused to act like her, and it was a source of constant conflict.)

Your remark is encouraging. Here's the rest of the email (again, paraphrased, because his rambling never stops):

"I didn't foresee these problems -- perhaps blinded by fresh infatuation -- when I promised you an emotional home last September. I never intended to lead you onto an emotional rollercoaster ride; neither then nor in January [when he first dumped me; note], where I might already have been able to foresee it. Despite this, I'm incredibly glad about the time we got to spend together, both before and after.

Certainly, I would sometimes have needed support myself [Note: my best friend lost it when he read this: "You supported that  :cursing: 24/7!"] -- it was difficult to be confronted with some accusations, or to be overheard. It's already forgiven. [Note: I never asked for his forgiveness.] Please don't blame yourself of having done something wrong. I know your circumstances and know what you're struggling with. [Note: Mostly his incompetence.] It's not your fault. If I can give you anything it's the advice, the plea, to show more lenience with your fellow human beings -- I know what it's like, and I think we share this trait, of judging others prematurely or too harshly. Perhaps we're both the makers of our misery in this regard (or perhaps it's only me, excuse me if I'm simply wrong).

I'm sorry that I didn't voice more often what I feel for you. Even though said rarely, I meant every single word and more. It's sad that our second attempt ends in this manner, considering that we're so similar in essence; however, we're probably currently in no position to support us [sic]. I find consolation in looking at the same moon as you and wish you the best, whichever form it may take.

What I finally want to tell you more than anything else -- thank you.

You've shown me perspectives, have taught me to appreciate so many beautiful things in this world and have enlarged my world. Thank you for all the ways in which you've enriched my life. Thank you for all the moments, the most beautiful time and the unforgettable memories, which will always be dear to my heart.

I am glad that you exist."

Is it just me or does this whole thing read like a "thank you for having been my supply, now that you're depleted, I'm going to move on"?

Narcissism x 2.

He also deliberately attacked you under the guise of "help" when he spoke about how you treat other people.

Honestly, read it again. How many times does he mention himself. Unreal level of narcissism. The only time he speaks about you is to criticise you for not being perfect.

Thank you, grumpydonut! It's heartening to read your assessment. He accused me of so many things during our relationship that I started to wonder whether it was in fact I who was the narcissist. I'm still unsure about this.

Conditions were confusing from the start... I work in an artistic profession, and in the early stages many of the works I created were dedicated to him. I later wondered whether it was I who had love-bombed him. Our professional relationship had got more and more personal, largely because I had actively encouraged it. He'd always been very passive, almost reluctant, unless it came to fights and to criticising me... from his side, there were no grand gestures, no flowers or poems or suchlike, as other people recount. If anything, works, letters and poems came from me (though I kept writing them during the entirety of the relationship, even when things weren't going well). He "only" lovebombed in showering me with affection, lovely words and attention. And only for the first four weeks or so.

I did pick up his slack all the time, cooking and cleaning for him, even doing his laundry... and I grew dissatisfied that his affections dwindled. When I asked him to do some little things for me, he called me "high maintenance". I was also troubled by this because a hallmark of a narcissist is them expecting gratitude for the things they do for you, and I always wondered: Is this what I'm doing?

Of course there was a big gap between his and efforts and mine, and he wanted gratitude for doing nothing or for things that are self-evident (such as showing up on time, or showing up at all), which I didn't.

But there was also a nagging feeling from the beginning that I loved him more than he loved me. A few members here have mentioned that this was an early red flag from their BPD (!) partner. It did feel as if his love was never enough; back then I wrote in my diary that I felt this was because he was too busy with himself, that he was unable to create a real connection with another person. But in hindsight I do sometimes wonder, Do I perhaps have this unfillable hole in my heart, too? Even during the idealisation phase I was almost constantly worried. Maybe nothing would have been enough?

I have very little experience with romantic relationships. And even with regards to friendships -- I have only one very close friend, then two people who know me reasonably well, and a few acquaintances. My ex always made me feel like an anti-social loner. (Except during idealisation phases, when he'd say he admired my nonchalance with people.) When I recounted social anecdotes, he would ask, for example "So, was this from a time you had more friends?" -- He had no real friends to speak of, except a few high school acquaintances whom he only very rarely met up with.

After the second breakup, it was I who got in touch, largely to see whether he had already come to his senses, hoping he would apologise and come back. Then I read about h00vering and again wondered, Is this what I'm doing?

It's all so confusing. There's a lot of talk of projection on this board, and a big part of healing from the whole experience is probably untangling his defects from mine.

Soppho, I think it is a healthy thing that you are questioning all of this. I believe it is normal. It gives us the opportunity to grow from our failed relationships. It takes two to tango and we all bring our own problems into relationships. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying you have these issues you are questioning. I think if you did, you wouldn't be examining and questioning it. We all have our issues and things we can improve on. Looking at it all is a good step in growth.

Creatives are sensitive and passionate people. It is part of the drive of our creativity. We are also somewhat loners as it is a solitary pursuit and that can be somewhat selfish. It is just part of us and we can't do much about that. It does take an understanding partner and recognition on our part to not get too swept up into our own world. (Something I work on) We need that space and time to create. Early on, insecurity is also a factor. It is hard to put our soul on such display. That does fade with success. I have work all over the world now, but I am still very humbled by it all. I am glad to have kept that.

Don't be too hard on yourself. You seem to be working through it and it is a process. Question, learn, grow. You will be better on the other side of this.

I think all of the things you are thinking about are part of a normal breakup, combine that with a relationship with someone with a personality disorder and it really does a number on us. There was also projection going on. I know it was in my relationship. I see it more with hindsight.

Even though I have gone no contact, I am still in limited contact with my ex due to business. It is difficult and I have been often triggered. It is getting better. I had it today. There was an install on an island only accessible via ferry. In the past, my ex and I would have done it together, enjoyed the day and the ferry ride. She did it solo. Texts from her came in several times over the weekend with questions of the plan. We have done quite a few installs there over the last four years of our relationship and she has a good feel for it. I only answered the relevant ones and keep my responses short, direct and neutral. I decided to do the delivery to the ferry to make sure everything was fine and to not have to interact with her coming to the studio. Bad weather was approaching today and that brought about more texts. I stuck to my plan I had laid out as to delivery time and my being gone from embarkation. She sends me a text about twenty minutes prior to that time informing me she was on the way. Fortunately I had gone early and I was already leaving. I let her know the work was loaded. No response. Mid afternoon, she texts asking me to call, she had a question. I am only communicating via texts and emails, no phone calls. I texted back for the question. About twenty minutes later she asked. No a very relevant question and not related to the day's install, but about another sale. I responded even though she knew the answer. She called. I didn't take it. About a half an hour later she sends a nice account of the install. I didn't respond. Then later a text informing me she had made the sale and the client had paid via check. Would I like her to drop it at the studio after I left or leave it at the gallery for me to pick up on my way home. I'll pick it up, was my response. A few minutes later she responded, I am so sorry you hate me so much. I just let it go. As much as I would like to have responded, I knew better. Still it makes me question it. I don't want to be a jerk, but I also will not be a doormat. If I open that door, that is what I will be. Again, it is my fault, for hating her. Not, I am sorry I have hurt you by lying to you, cheating on you, betraying your trust and leaving you for another man. That was my fault as well for not loving her like she loved me. I know she is not capable of empathy. There is no need to expect it.

My apologies for the long vent.

What an impactful bunch of statements. I heard those exact words from her mouth "you just didn't love me as I loved you".

As a few others have said lately, they live in their own little world of delusion
 

Grumpydonut, it has been interesting to me how many similarities we all have in this. I knew nothing about BPD before my breakup. I certainly knew something was wrong.

It is sad. My ex is an amazing person for the majority of the time and certainly with everyone else. I am constantly being told that by people that interact with her. We were also good acquaintances for five or so years before we became involved. Once she focused on me, it was obsessive from the start until almost the end. She constantly communicated, would show up where ever I might be. The sexual attention was always there and our chemistry was intense. She was also insanely jealous, could become mad at the slightest thing, sometime raged at the most unusual things, mostly business related, but last December she came to the studio and I had just received a package with a leather wine case I ordered. I collect wine and like to take it to dinner. I had opened the package and taken a quick look at it. She walked in, saw the box and flew into a rage starting with, What is this! It was intense. She had bought me one for Christmas. She was furious. I had ruined her perfect gift for me. This went on for ten minutes or more as she raged on leaving and the room and then returning. My studio is big, 4000 square feet. I didn't know what to think. Other times she would be crying and clingy trying to make me love her. These moods could come and go quickly. Once over it was like it hadn't happened. I have never received an apology from her. The closest I had was the last rage event. She sent a text saying I know you feel like I was attacking you and you need space. I am here when you are ready to talk. Not meaning I am here when you are ready to talk about what happened, but when you are over it and ready for things to be normal again and go on. We did talk somewhat about it, but not much resolution. She often admitted she bullied me and "tried to spin the world" (her term for manipulation that I had coined) to make things work. She did that time. I think in truth she already had her other relationship lined up and was making the shift.

It was all exhausting.

Hi everyone,

I really want to re-activate this whole thread. There are just so many things that I can relate to here it is uncanny, and I cannot list them all because then I would need to write an essay. My situation is so similar to everything you all describe. The "condesending" scholar really got to me, as did the silent treatment as a form of punishment (I would do anything to make it end, and after two months finally got the reply I quote below), gaslighting (doubting my reality and apologizing when she was in the wrong). I actually think my self-worth took a huge nose dive through this break-up, and this email thread really re-activated my sense of worth as well as validating the sense of wrongness of all her communications - on so many levels. I wouldn't usually do something like this but I would like to post the explanation that I "finally" got from her. I found it heartless and cruel, like tvda says, but somehow also detached, eerie, and unreal (similar to IntotheWind's description at one point of how they switch and re-write a whole situation they created):

"I don't want to participate in this toxic dynamic between us any longer.
Every time we talked or kept in contact, I felt like having no control over what was happening. Every time we tried, we both ended up hurt.
I guess hurt people hurt people, and I am sure that neither of us wanted to do so. But I find this dynamic very distressing, and it causes me a lot of anxiety. The only way I see to stop it is to leave each other alone.
Neither of us can contain the other one's pain or heal the other one's wounds, and I am afraid that trying to will hurt both of us even more.
I am not angry, and I don't think what happened is anyone's fault.
It makes me unbelievably sad that we weren't good for each other and couldn't find a way to be in each other's lives, but I don't want to continue this.
I wish you all the Best!"

Without the context it's of course very hard to understand why this was so hurtful and strange to me. Like all of you say, it seems so reasonable until you know the background. Is there anything in this message that strikes any of you? Because I know it seems so reasonable and adult and this is what threw me. One thing I noticed by putting it on this site is that she never once mentions a specific incident (I'm not sharing my own emails, which try to address issues, because it would make this post essayistic).. and that is suspicious.

For context I would like to say: I tried 3-4 times to talk to her about something and she found increasingly sudden ways of avoiding it, like suggesting we just don't speak to each other for months and then become friends. After two months in utter frustration I criticized her and she hung up on me. I wrote her an email and was blocked on all platforms. After 3 weeks I wrote her another email trying to understand her need for distance and also explaining the ways she had hurt me and the only reply I received was: "thanks for your email. I wish you all the best!". Like, what? I just couldn't comprehend this lack of communicative empathy. I then two weeks later again wrote her trying to find any sort of answer for her behaviour. I was driven crazy by the silent treatment and also (of course) her escalation away from a simple, conflict-resolution conversation we needed to have to a sudden-break up and a discard. I'm sorry everyone but here are my angry rants about this email:

What was toxic in the relationship? From my side, I had been helping and giving to her for 2-3 months, and once I needed something from her she simply cut me out of her life without a word. I found the "devaluing" she did of our time together on the phone before this so sudden and hurtful, like apparently she had a feeling it was wrong from the beginning (but never told me, and was ekstatic and constantly telling me how special i was in that very same beginning) and was derisive about sharing childhood stories together (actually, she openly shared lots of her childhood with me, with and without my encouragement). This condescending scholar made me feel I wanted to respect her reasons but her reasons make no sense at all, inside the context of our time together, and that is itself a kind of power-play.

Why does she always use "we"? Do any of you recognize these communicative techniques, or am I just in crazy-land? I know it's pointless to ruminate, but actually for me it's helpful to dissect this period as I internalized the shame/hurt from being discarded really deeply I think, and like the others here would have expected a letter, an explanation, an apology, and basic human decency and respect. So many unresolved issues is why I find this "break-up" damaging, rather than simply a break-up... and I am convinced that if I hadn't opposed this silent treatment, she would have come back around for more supply at some point, but then I would have just been a doormat. By never giving me any closure until i forced the matter, she was keeping her "supply options" open, and by never responding to any points of my emails she could take the high ground in some silly, but very damaging, power struggle.

For context around this "we", which strikes me as strange, she had taken control of nearly everything, and I was afraid and confused and had let her (my mistake). Even though she says this, she never *once* "tried" to address the issue I was trying to bring up 3-4 times through letters etc., but rather I kept trying to prop up a relationship becoming increasingly unstable.

Basically, I fell into the trap that hammer so well describes (thank you so much for those words, i've saved them!) about never expecting respect or empathy from somebody who has dishonoured you. But I didn't understand this at the time and was exactly in the trap the silent treatment is supposed to produce - I would do anything to make it end as i didn't realize it was all a power game, and I was still attached to them.

Okay, end of rant. On an abandonment website I read that the abandoner empowers themself through their actions and usually invents "excuses" to justify their callous behaviour, and ofc that is all that is going on here. But these forms of deliberate disempowerment of others really get my goat and I had to share here.

I'll join in, even though the moment has long passed for Sappho, because there are some good points here as Poppy2 points out.


Yes, we'd like to think so wouldn't we?  As we all know we're not dealing with a regular type of person with our BPDex.  What's helped me is looking at it from a perspective of my well being and so it has to deal with forgiveness.  Not for their sake, no, I can't even picture a scenario with my BPDex in a repentant posture, at least not a sincere one.  These terrible things were done to me (over 2 years ago, now, they started) and I gotta let some of it go.  Another way of looking at is to 'clear their debts' to you, more of a mental accounting and dumping these bad debts off your books.

Let's face it, there's nothing that our BPDex's can do to make up for what has been taken from us.  Our time, our love, our trust, our emotional well-being--all toyed with and violated.  I can't shop online and replace what's been taken from me by my BPDex. And she can't return it to me, even if she wanted to. It's gone.

Best I can do is write down in the ledger what's been stolen, categorize it as a "bad debt", and write it off for good.  And for Pete's sake, don't ever take on any more debt from this person!

It's maybe not as satisfying as you'd like it to be, but it's been one exercise that's been helpful for me to start the healing practice.

Hey,

yeah thinking of it as a bad debt or putting it inside a 'file' in your mind and then putting that file away is a good way of dealing with it. You gotta write it off, yes. I had a good reaction to writing my long rant afterwards, to try and think 'what if none of this has to do with me?' that's hard to think in a relationship where it's give and take but I think part of positively re-writing the past in terms of mental illness is to try and accept that none of it actually has to do with the non. Honestly that still rankles but it's at least a new perspective for me on these communications.

Thanks for your reply.

This was a very short note on a piece of paper.

I "felt" a certain way by reading it, more so than trying to make meaning of the words which were not too complex, he was on the face of it, wishing you well. From there, it is up to the reader to decide upon any uluterior motive or dishonesty in it.

What helped me towards detachment was to stop playing so much detective. There is a place for logical and critical thinking, but these are not crimes are such to be proven to a set level of evidence. Its a relationship, and feelings are important. Put simply, most of the things ive talked about my ex, specifically the cheating, the mind games, it would be very difficult to "prove" any of them. I dont need to persuade anyone. Its my call, to end the relationship when I find it makes me feel upset, too confusing, distrusting and so forth.

you want a happy ending Sappho, you admit this here. It sounds idealistic, im an idealist so I can share. Happy endings are possible, If you want one, make one yourself like I did. I left it to her side of the bargain to do her bit to co-create a happy relationship, it failed spectactular. I then relied on her to fix it, failed catastrophically. The least I could do is to have a happy ending and I feel in todays terms I acheived one successfully, on my own back with the support of others along the way. There is nothing to stop you, just dont place a high expection on this persons track record who has let you down so much to be the one who is then expected to redeem himself and fix it all, it may be expecting too much and setting up the stage for the next disappointment.

Yes, I agree. I personally would make it about personal business and drop the rest. You never really know what the other person is thinking, and at this point, it really doesn't matter. Yes, you had a connection (mine was several decades), but your happy ending involves your choices, not his. Getting closure in these relationships from the former partner is unlikely. Maybe they can be nice in a note or email, but you really don't know the whole story from that. Besides, manipulation is one of their potential tools. As a therapist friend of mine likes to say, "Be from Missouri. Show me! Actions speak louder than words."

Mine was a long-distance separation, then a no-contact divorce (it was high conflict), and then I agreed to email to get certain closeout items done. I was so broke when it was final, and it seemed silly to have my attorney handle car title issues and such. There were certain things that had to be exchanged and sent. Yes, there were other observations and comments in his emails, but I kept it all business as my attorney advised. I ignored the emotional appeals and even requests for side deals and kept it like an email to my boss. Every time I talked to my attorney, he reminded me of that. There was a lot of emotion in my ex's emails and in his conversations with his attorney, but not from me and my attorney. The hope was that our choices would drop things down to a reasonable level. His attorney got COVID and then died, so he was self-represented for a while. We still were business-like. And thankfully, I finally was able to close my file with my attorney.

I haven't heard from my ex in some time. There is nothing legal remaining, and to my knowledge, everything that had to be exchanged has been exchanged.

Our adult children have heard from him, but last they told me, they are still no contact with him. He blew up our lives many times over before and after separation and never took responsibility for that. He wanted them to flip a switch with him and pretend like nothing ever happened, and that's just not how safe relationships go. I didn't tell them that, but they worked it out themselves. In many ways, they are way more savvy than I was as a young adult.  

I'm so sorry you have to go through this, poppy! Let's have a look at that message:

"I don't want to participate in this toxic dynamic between us any longer."
Brash, black-and-white statement that's all about her; your feelings don't even factor in.

Every time we talked or kept in contact, I felt like having no control over what was happening.
Control. That's a big one. For pwBPD, relationships are all about control. If they don't manage to manipulate you, they will paint you black and discard you. If they do manage to manipulate you, they will grow bored of you and discard you. It's a no-win situation for the non involved.

My ex used to batter his girlfriend of 8 years before me. He confessed this early on, claiming it had only happened once or twice, but knowing his aggressive side, I now assume that was a lie. I later found out that he only stuck with her because he could completely control every aspect of her life, down to her own private interests. It was chilling to watch – that poor woman had lost her entire personality in the process.

When he confessed to the beatings, I told him that violence was a dealbreaker to me, and that if he ever happened to beat me, that's the last time he'd ever see me.

Conflicts started arising soon after that. At some level he knew that he wouldn't been able to control me like he had controlled his ex, and that suddenly placed everything we had on a shaky foundation for him.

Every time we tried, we both ended up hurt.
LOL! From what I gather, you've tried to console her as best you could, and she decided to hurt you and be hurt in the process. Notice that the first time she mentions a "we", it's really about her feelings and justifying herself by insinuating you did something wrong.

I guess hurt people hurt people, and I am sure that neither of us wanted to do so. But I find this dynamic very distressing, and it causes me a lot of anxiety. The only way I see to stop it is to leave each other alone.
Neither of us can contain the other one's pain or heal the other one's wounds, and I am afraid that trying to will hurt both of us even more.
Translation: "I feel hurt, so my solution is to never see one another again, and I frankly don't care what you feel about it. But I'm going to put it in vague, abstract, bombastic terms so that it's confusing and impossible to say that I am the bad person. I'm also going to insinuate that you are as crazy as me so that I don't have to face my own issues."

I am not angry, and I don't think what happened is anyone's fault.
Translation: "I don't want you anymore, and whatever the reason for that may be, it sure isn't my fault. You think it may be my defects? I DISAGREE. But just to be safe, let me pretend to be grand and generous, so that you don't feel inclined to investigate any further."

It makes me unbelievably sad that we weren't good for each other and couldn't find a way to be in each other's lives...
See above.

...but I don't want to continue this.
"...and I don't care to hear about what you think, because my feelings take precedence over yours. They always did, so don't act surprised now."

I wish you all the Best!
Translation: "That said, I might need you at some point when I feel really low, so let me pretend we parted in a cordial manner, in the most superficial way ever, because that's the only thing I can muster. I hope you accept this thin veneer of cordiality, so that I can contact you at any time in the future when I happen to want your services again, and be able to pretend the timing or the circumstances weren't right."


–

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh. But this exactly sounds like the message my ex sent me in hindsight. I couldn't make sense of it at the time, but boy do I see it now.


I don't think there's anything strange about finding a message like that hurtful. It's calculated, cold, and written with almost medical precision and sterility. There's zero regard for you and only vague descriptions of her own feelings, which are diffuse, confused, murky and somehow intangible.

It's a subtle form of blame-shifting; she doesn't take responsibility for anything she did, so she's trying to distribute the burden "equally" across your shoulders and hers. Great BS-ing technique, she'd probably make a magnificent lawyer (albeit only for herself).

Yes and yes.

Dissecting things is good, IMHO. With distance, you'll see the harmful dynamics that have been at play in the beginning – that the game was always rigged in her favour, not yours, and that whenever you tried to reclaim a shred of balance, she'd go off the rails.

Control is huge for pwBPD. They can't help it, it's at the very core of this disorder. And since they think so lowly of themselves, exercising self-control just doesn't cut it for them, they have to disempower other people in order to feel alive and worthy of being alive.

I think this is a great learning experience for every non involved. PwBPD will never have this insight and will likely live unhappily ever after, trapped within their own shortcomings and toxicity. We on the other hand get to ask ourselves the important questions – and to answer them: "Do I want to be in a relationship where I have no autonomy, yet the other person demands complete freedom?" "Do I want to love someone despite never getting any genuine feelings in return?" "Do I want to be with someone who's emotionally a toddler, and whose condition needs to be managed every single minute of the day?"

I'm beginning to think of this as a valuable blueprint to avoid future unfit partners – and further an unhappy future marriage, unhappy child rearing/family situations, and most importantly and eventually – an unhappy life.

Very well said. At some point you just have to cut your losses. It hurts in that very moment, but it does get better with time.


That's the perfect question! And the answer is: It truly had nothing to do with you.


 lol Thank you for your input Cromwell, but you've overlooked that it's an old thread. That relationship is waaaay past redemption at this point for me. I wouldn't take my ex back come hell or high water now. Not even if he suddenly and "permanently" turned into the person he pretended to be. I've seen behind the facade, it's over.

Sappho, I just want to say how absolutely, deeply grateful I am for your blow by blow cold reality bath. Reading this old thread was a positive trigger in terms that I recognized so many duplicitous or soulless communicative behaviours but it also helped me to see how low my self-esteem was that I couldn't even 'see' it. I entered this situation a strong and determined and very active person, and I left it a shell.. getting these emails I was still the rat in the maze pressing the button on familiar 'stress' because it's what I had been conditioned to. That is why your cold reality bath is the best medicine for me. I'm not religious but I feel like saying "god bless you" for helping me see the toddler in the gradiosity, the viper in the aloof "generosity", and the self-involved narcissist in the pseudo-empathy and blame-shifting. I had to laugh out loud a lot reading your descriptions and I'm going to save this post for whenever I'm feeling nostalgic or low... I don't think Sappho had a classical epithet (although Plato called her the "tenth muse") but you penetrated the FOG like "sharp-eyed" Athena and skewered every single line of that self-serving email. In the end, they are just ridiculously incompetent, and having that comically exposed is a great antidote and exit-door to the victim of their power-games in me. Also, although my friends have been so great, none of them could have ever written such an effective translation as you, since none of them really "get" the duplicity of how people with PDs present.

You know how you wrote your relationship blew up into this absurd, cosmic, 'we'll be looking at the same moon' just because you wanted to see each other twice a week and stay in touch? I wanted to see each other *once a month* (we live in different cities, but only 2 hours away) and speak maybe 2 times a week on the phone. That's the level I accepted (see rat in the maze, above). I felt ashamed about it because I fell into the trap of "if only I try harder" .. I was afraid, honestly, the victim of intermittent reinforcement and also just didn't understand that for some people, especially those who emotionally blackmail, it's win-at-all-costs, and so the discard hit my self-esteem so badly because I hadn't asserted strong enough boundaries before. That's also why your sharp reversals are such a relief to me.

I totally agree with you that processing is the only way forward. I think I am slowly leaving a state of denial and entering the state of realizing it was all about her, since the beginning, and that I was a pawn inside somebody else's illness since the beginning. This is both an immense relief (hallo reality) and a confrontation with horror (people like that exist ?  As you once suggested, writing the story of the relationship helped me immensely with this, but I actually decided to do it in the third person, using the name "poppy"... it really helped me to recognize that "poppy" couldn't even recall one time when she was really there for me, despite all the promises and kind words. Realizing this was an important body blow for me. As you say so well in your post, " it was never about you / always about me, so why do you expect any different now?" Writing this story in the third person helped me for the first time remember the autonomous and indepedent person I was before getting into this mess.

Also, I just wanna say: your comments about battering scare me, tbh. I'm of course glad this didn't happen to you but if anybody told me they ever battered anybody I would force them to go into therapy. Also, how could he admit to this without shame? was it like a casual "oh I used to batter my ex?" I find it impossible to imagine anybody saying anything like that, unless they were truly repentant, and it doesn't sound like he was. Their need for control is legion and from what I've read it only gets worse and worse and worse. I can also relate to your expereince that the "illness" really began to manifest once a boundary was set against their need for control - in your case, the conversation about battering, in my case, the rejection of a sexual assault. Of course we'll never know what goes on in their mind but the parallel is eerie to me... intellectually, I know that it is the narcissistic injury at work, and its attendant pathological need to "control" the love-object. Emotionally, it's just frightening to think I was vulnerable with/trusted a person like that. It makes me feel sick. And I actually think speaking with their ex's can be healing in this regard. Did you ever consider contacting this other woman? I would like to speak with the ex of my ex, to commiserate together, and also to find out if he was as badly victimized as I was (ofc, my ex presented herself as the victim of love, classic BPD there... but I really want his side of the story now.)

I'm really so grateful you took the time today to blast that email, it makes me wanna throw flowers in the air.

poppy, thank you for your kind words, they made my day. By all means, do throw flowers in the air :wee: As the saying goes: Go where you're celebrated, not where you're tolerated.

I don't mean to flog a dead horse, but I forgot one of the most important aspects, the one that riles me up the most. It's the complete and utter BS front of "I'm so sorry we couldn't work out a way to be together" and its various different variants. It's the one thing I hated the most about my ex's message, too. It would have been far more accurate if your ex and mine had written:

"The truth is, I simply couldn't be bothered to find a way to be together. It just isn't important to me. You as a person weren't that important to me. I might have felt differently in the beginning, but that's just what it is now, and it will stay that way as long as I comfortably know that you're still available if I ever happen to temporarily want your attention and validation back. [In the meantime, it will probably be a lot easier for me to latch on to a new source of attention who hasn't seen through my BS yet and doesn't call me out on it, so bye for now – I might resurface in a couple of months/years though, when you've hopefully forgotten about it.]"

Their complete lack of care and effort is what hurts, and it is also what sets you free. Because let's face it – someone who truly loves you will find a way to make things work, come hell or high water. There is no way around it. Chances are, you're a lot easier to be with than your BPDex. It would have taken a lot less on her behalf to get along with you than for you to get along with her.

In the catalogue of "Things To Make This Relationship Work", you've clearly tried A to Z, thrice over, while your ex didn't even try A. In some unspoken way you always knew this, which is probably part of the reason why the message felt so wrong and unjust. You don't deserve equal blame in the downfall of this relationship. You deserve credit for all the good things you did – and the next person you'll fall in love with, if they're healthy, will appreciate them.


 lol It was worse. It was my birthday (seems to be a BPD thing to ruin those), we were at a spa, relaxing in a pool. He tried to start an argument with the sentence "I'm scared that we might not work out, because I'm afraid you'll never understand my passion for board games". Startling, but at that point I still had my act together and said "Don't be silly, just show me some board games and we'll see", and refused to discuss it further. A couple of sentences later, still relaxing in the pool!, I tenderly told him "I know you're a good man", and he suddenly became very emotional and said "No, no I'm not. I have to tell you something..." That's when he "confessed". I asked whether he regretted it, he said yes with a deeply rueful look. How often had this happened? Twice, at the beginning of their relationship (allegedly). I told him that I wouldn't condemn him for past transgressions, that we all had things we regretted, but that such behaviour wouldn't ever fly with me; and so ended the debate.

I can't remember what else was said, but I do remember ending up crying in one of those beach pods because he eventually managed to create a fight out of something else. In hindsight, he simply needed the drama that day.


Spot on analysis of their need for control.

I've never felt the desire to speak with his ex, no, though he always "offered" (or rather, threatened) that one day, he'd introduce us... there were several factors why I couldn't ever speak to her:

1) I was sort of the other woman; my ex left her for me. We hadn't been physically intimate, but we definitely had inappropriately emotionally-charged discussions. So in a way, I always felt that I got the karma I deserved for acting like a selfish strumpet and passively breaking them up with my own lack of professionalism. (Yes, my ex sociopathically wrapped me around his little finger by keeping a two-year weekly diary of my likes and dislikes, and I completely fell for it – but I really, really could have put up a much better fight against that than I did.)
2) When my ex and I got together, she turned into the other woman – she kept living at my ex's place for another four months (!) and it was triangulation all the way. My ex refused to cut ties with her and her presence in our relationship was a constant source of sorrow and pain.
3) From what I gather, she is still incredibly enmeshed with his life – she still drives his mother's car every day, works in his mother's law firm as a lowly secretary, has most of her stuff at his place, and her best friends are his only "closer" friends.

So, while I would like to hear her side of the story, I don't think she cares to see me, to put it mildly, and I more than understand that.

There's also the off chance that they're back together, who knows – and in this case, I wouldn't want to touch that ants' nest with a ten-foot pole.

Oh my god let's please flog a dead horse! Or, a gentler image, flog a dead pinata... it's so cathartic. Because there is that fundamental fact that rumination, even obsession, is a legitimate response to actions or behaviours that the mind simply cannot comprehend. And we never will comprehend it - I saw a good video about that yesterday. The psychologist said: The mind is trying to find a scenario when these situations will not always end in check-mate for you (the non), but the truth is that scenario doesn't exist. So  back to the healthy, cathartic flogging!

I love the message you wrote. And as always I find it so uncanny how similar your attractive, from a good family, but apparently achievement-less ex behaves in a way that elicits exactly the same emotional response as my dissociative, high-functioning, butch-lesbian-in-hiding ex. I mean, come on! How can this be real! I am sure the sub-text of my ex's message is exactly the same as the sub-text of your ex's message, but I would write it far more brutally:

"look, poppy, I know you've been trying so hard in the past months to meet my needs, make me feel safe, and overcome years and years of ingrained trust and intimacy issues that I have. I get it: you're a caring, nice person. But what you don't understand is that it's also so much work having to speak to you about emotional issues, even if I raised them myself in the first place. As long as you're willing to give it, I'm willing to take it, but since this most recent turn in our relationship, you seem like a separate person with separate needs and I am just totally out of my depth with that. I know I told you that you're a special, irreplaceable, one-of-a-kind diamond, but the thing is, I also met a really cute actress recently and since there is no history there I can pretend to be whomever I want again... and that is infinitely preferable to working things out with you, even for an amicable, considerate ending. Oh - and because of my enduring shame, I'll never have the courage to apologize to you in the future: but keep hoping darling! The good thing about this awful illness I have is that I will believe it's your fault, anyway."   lol lol


I wish I could say her complete lack of care and effort set me free. Instead, it crushed me. I'm not running away from that feeling anymore, and writing down the "story of the relationship" has helped me to admit some things that I pushed aside - my fear, my denial, and my knowledge that I was just an "item" on a list to her (only after the idealization stage, of course.) I'm sure on the other side of this pain is anger, though. I love how strong your separation from your ex's sh***ty behaviour is, it's always inspiring to read how much self-respect you have, I just wanna be honest and say I'm not there yet... but I am slowly incorporating reality back into the fantasy-land (read: abuse amnesia) of my mind thru the relationship diary. Thank you for saying that I deserve credit for trying, I definitely do and did!

 
Isn't the vulnerability so confusing? Like, what this experience has taught us is - vulnerability can be weaponized. And this is a dangerous belief to carry into the world, because I could never have believed the vulnerable, trusting person I felt safe with would become a detached, controlling lizard, but that is exactly what happened! and this is the same with you - what he really means is "tell me I'm not a bad person, make it about me" rather than "here is a behaviour i'm owning up to". ofc the identification of "vulnerable/covert narcissism" helps, but this is just a category, I think it's more important to have strategies. Like for example, I want to be able to trust people again in the future when they're vulnerable, and a book on emotional blackmail is helping me to do this - like after an incident of trust or vulnerability, you detach again and "observe" how they react/what happens. Do their words translate into actions? if so, you can trust them. If not, take your distance. It's helpful for me to read these strategies as I'm a naturally trusting person (translation: (former) easy victim). I think the fact that after this moment of "sharing" all you can remember is crying in a beach pod (sorry to hear that, btw!) is very telling.. maybe there was a deliberate power play following his "confession".

As for speaking with the ex, I can see why you'd be hesitant, yes :( ... also, she's still enmeshed. Poor her. That stuff about driving his mother's car is creepy, too. Better to leave it. I also really wonder if my ex's ex is somehow "clear" on the whole psychopathic-survival defense mechanisms or not... I would love to have a beer with him (would also be strange, as I'm a trans woman with his now-queer ex, but life is strange) and trade notes but of course staying in the FOG is somehow probably preferable to many people. I just have no idea but really want to unmask the "vulnerable victim of love narcissist" I met from the very beginning and fantasize about meeting this broken, confused victim of BPD to commiserate with. It's just as likely he's still loyal to her though.

Finally, who knows - maybe you got the karma, maybe you didn't. I don't think there's anything wrong with a couple breaking up because he/she/they met somebody else. That's life. But there is a problem when it isn't transparent, respectful, or open. What you could never have predicted (I imagine) is that you were a player in a web of triangulation, which is really just such a sick game. It's just so sick and dysfunctional, to move between or trade people like objects. And you know what? I had a really big  red-flag about this, where I was compared unfavourably/favourably with other people my ex was talking to, and it gave me the distinct impression she enjoyed playing games with other people's feelings by pretending availability while actually being totally unavailable. And I ignored it *face palm* by believing in her "good sides". You live and learn.

I know this is an older thread but I am reading it now and it really resonates.

My ex also abandoned me in a flurry of BPD splitting, rage, cheating, etc.

Now, and also after any time we had disagreements, I’m coming to see, she would communicate in exactly the ways described above, even the word choice was the same as above.

Even though many of the words were technically nice, it always hurt so much.

It’s like she goaded me into loving and trusting her, then stabbed me in the back, and then sent a message in kind and proper English about how sometimes in life you get stabbed in the back, and I shouldn’t be so sensitive, and that when I was ready to pretend it never happened and let her lure me into her trap again, she was there for me.

In the meantime, if I could keep paying for her car and leave her alone so she could triangulate me with other me and cheat, that would be super. She even told me in proper, kind English that she truly loves me just not in love with me, and if I truly love her I should work on myself and she work on herself for the next 5 years and then maybe we can reconsider. In the meantime, I should send her money and payments and not contact her. She moved in with another man about 2 days later, but still calls me and if I sound upset she says “you’re my husband I care about you why would you be upset?” She just doesn’t have any real empathy.

The fake and shallow meaning behind these are what hurts.

What an amazing thread.. ! So honest and true, I recognise SO much that I am a bit at a loss for words.

This is a great point. Thanks for sharing.

Just re-reading this thread and that is SO true. We all get to decide what we allow into our lives and how we let ourselves get treated. BPD or not, I think most healthy people would not tolerate these types of relationships. Stay strong all!