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This isn't anything I haven't encountered before.  I just like to understand things so I can deal with them better.  I really don't like going out in public with my uBPDw because it's almost certain something embarrassing is going to happen.

Tonight we took the kids out to a park to see the fireworks.  Four of us and only two chairs.  We were set up out of the way and where we were was the start of a walking trail with a couple of steps leading up to it.  The wife and one of the kids occupy the steps sort to the rear of where I was.  There isn't much walking traffic, but finally a couple comes along and stands there politely for a bit:

uBPDw: "Oh, I'm sorry.  Do you want on the trail."

Couple:  "Yes, we do.  No worries!"

Right now, I already know what's going to happen.  She's not going to move, but past experience tells me to wait to say anything and she sits... and sits... and sits... and the couple is waiting patiently.  I know if I say anything to her there will be hell to pay and even if I waited 20 minutes, the excuse would still be that I didn't even give her time to get up.  So instead I told my kid to get up and let the nice people through.  I figured that even if she didn't follow suit, at least they could then get by.  It took her another ten seconds and then she finally moved after he did, the couple thanked them, and went on.

So that I could say something without saying something, I used the point to at least teach my kid and told him when you're blocking someone, get up -- don't just linger.  Think about how you would like to be treated if the roles were reversed and then she had to say something:

uBPDw:  "Well, they said 'no worries'.  It wasn't a problem."

Me: "They also said they wanted to use the trail when you asked them.  Their saying, 'no worries" was them being polite.  Do you think they wanted to stand there all night?"

She had no answer for that.  This is nothing new.  A couple of years ago at a restaurant, dinner is over, we're making our way out, and she wanted to stop and tell a waitress something (which was a very odd encounter itself).  We're stopped in a main aisle, enough for two people to pass comfortably.  We're all in a line on one side as she talks to the waitress and coming the other way is a young woman carrying a baby.  There's nobody else in the aisle.  Right as the young woman gets within a couple of feet of her, she steps directly into her path, blocks the woman almost causing her to crash into her, and won't move while she keeps talking to the waitress.  When she wouldn't respond to my telling her to move, I finally grabbed the back of her shirt and pulled her out of the way and apologized to the woman with the baby.

What in the hell causes this?  Someday she's going to run up against someone that's not so gracious about it and I'm inclined to just let them have at her.

 

Hi Couper:

She is exhibiting controlling behavior to an extreme, and being territorial to an extreme. By doing it, she believes she has control/power over them.

People with BPD or strong BPD traits can be very controlling.  In some, it is displayed as jealousy and a desire to control their partner and know where they are every minute.   

More normal people have some degree of being territorial, i.e. not wanting a  neighbor to access/use portions of your property without permission.  Then, there are some people who just aren't courteous and don't consider others, i.e people who leave their shopping cart in the middle of an aisle, as they venture off to look at something or get a sample.

I suspect your partner has other control issues.  What might they be?
 

In addition to what Naughty Nibbler mentioned about controlling behavior, what other indications of narcissism and lack of empathy have you noticed?

some people are just thoughtless and rude - some extremely thoughtless and rude. its something i experience every time i go to the grocery store, or drive.

the last concert i attended, my friend and i grabbed our spots early, and stood there for a while to maintain them. great spots. right as the concert was starting, a guy and his girlfriend walked directly in front of us and stood there; by that point, space was fairly tight, so it was the kind of thing that would be pretty difficult to be oblivious to, but i dont think they ever gave it much thought. one of my friends girlfriends was pretty in their face about it, and they adjusted a bit, but they werent going to move.

Thanks to all for the input.


Oh cripes, how many examples do you want?  Those two involved other people.  I'll give you a classic one involving me.  To put it into context, I would say she's not "in your face" about these things.  I guess she's being passive-aggressive.  She wouldn't get up and tell those people on the trail, "screw you, I'm not getting up", she'd just pretend like she didn't hear them (even though she had just asked and gotten an answer AND acknowledged that she heard them because she repeated part of what they said).

A couple of years ago there was a book sale she wanted to go to.  When the barometric pressure is all over the place I have trouble with the plumbing in my head, headache with nausea sort of thing.  This was just such a day.  I wanted to go too, but told her I could feel it coming on and I'll go, but when I need to leave, I need to leave and she agreed.  So, we get there and were there long enough to walk every aisle and pick over everything (and could barely carry what we did have at that point) and I told her as I was getting worse and finally I was at my limit, we have plenty, let's check out and go.  Then she does what she does -- slips away and is going through more books she had already been through.  I keep telling her that I need to go and she just keeps right on shopping and not watching the kids and she's here and she's there and I tell her I'm going to throw-up in the middle of the book sale, let's go.  Finally, after a good while of this we get to the checkout area and I turn around and she's heading to the bathroom with one of the kids without saying anything (it's common for her to just leave the scene without saying anything and it wasn't a "potty emergency").

Another one.  Our town has a traffic circle and we went to see the Christmas tree lighting.  We had to park a few blocks away at a library parking lot and walk.  I can tell whenever she can hear me because she’ll go out of her way to do the opposite.    It never happens that we both do the same thing and the opposite only happens after a decision is made. She takes a kid and so do I and I'm still trying to get mine unloaded and I say, “Let’s go left, that’s the shortest and safest route” (the other sidewalk was cut up for repairs) and she starts hightailing it to the right.  I had my son and she had our toddler daughter.  So I said louder and louder, “We’re going left.  Turn left.  We’re going this way.”  and it almost seems she’s taking off faster so I let her go.  Though she’ll deny it now, she has told me in the past that whenever she is told to do something by anyone, she feels a compulsion to do the opposite whether it is in her best interest or not.  I went the way I intended and we got split up.  I can’t hike all over for no reason with my back hurting and it just didn't make sense.  We got there first and eventually reconnected and then she started in on me about why I went the other way and she says, “Well, I didn’t hear you”.  She definitely heard me and this is a recurring problem when out in public.  It must be some childish way of maintaining autonomy.    

I've even had it before when the kids were little that we'd return to the car and she'd have the kids in her charge and I'd be occupied loading something, and the next thing I know the kids are loose and she has disappeared to, whatever, return a cart or any excuse to otherwise split without saying anything.  When I said something like, "If you have to leave, you need to tell me you're leaving and to watch the kids -- communicate" and it's always something stupid like -- "You should have asked me if I was leaving."  Anything that a regular civil person will do, she will not.  In cases like that it really pissed me off because we're talking about the wellbeing of the kids.

So you’re dealing with an oppositional defiant disorder too!  :hug:

Ah crap, another term to add to the list?

I had to look up that one.  Yeah, it could fit:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3214601/

I have heard a number of stories from her school years.  Enough to see her as what's described there.  Several years ago she was crying like crazy and when I asked why she said so-and-so had died.  I had never heard of this person.  It was someone from her old neighborhood about her age.  This mystified me because I had never heard her mentioned or been introduced to her and now she's balling over her more than she has some family members.  She went on to tell me that she hated her and snubbed her in school because she was jealous of her getting all of this attention on account of her being diagnosed with something.  She died of MS, or some equally wretched long-term ailment that went on for years and years.  I told her that at some point it must have become evident that she was not faking and she said that yes, she knew, but she still hated her for getting all the attention (and she carried this hate into adulthood -- she was about 40 when this happened) and now she felt bad for it because she wasn't actually lying about being sick... despite the fact that this wasn't a new revelation.  It was all in a context that I don't think she actually felt bad for the person -- she was making it all about herself.

Never a dull moment.  You never know what you're going to wake up to day-to-day.     

Sadly, this is one of the things that is very attractive to me with my BPDw...  I get bored of humans much too easily and enjoy the challenge and roller-coaster.  I sometimes think I have a reverse stress reaction from how others react to stress, as I tend to thrive with what would stress others out.  Or perhaps it's because my birth-mother created the same chaos for me as a small child that her years in and out of foster care created for her and so that is my comfort zone... never made that connection before.

I believe my BPDw also suffers from oppositional defiant disorder, though differently.  She is not passive aggressive about it.. usually just slight attitude and unwillingness to adapt, with saying "don't tell me what to do".  Even something that isn't a directive but is worded in a way that could be taken as a directive will set her off...  "could you grab the blue one?"  "I'll grab whichever one I want to, and you'll like it" told as if it is a joke and she grabs the pink one.

I think I'm learning that seems to be a thing amongst BPD's.  Yours almost sounds playful about it and at least you can see that you're getting the pink one.  Mine is sullen and sabotaging and a documented liar.  She will agree to things verbally that she never has any intention of going along with, which is how I got into all of this mess in the first place.  In the lead-up to getting married and talking plans and goals and child rearing she agreed with all of the important stuff, but then I found out after it was too late that she never had any intention of cooperating with anything we talked about.  If I had any clue what was coming, I would have kicked her to the curb and moved on.  I was duped and, to her, I'm just a tool she uses to elicit pity from people so she can claim victim status. 

Amongst her circle, she trashes me, and my reputation is that of a loser and every other negative adjective you can imagine, so I can't really go into her world without having people behave awkwardly around me because people simply believe everything they are told.  I have spent my whole life striving to be a solid citizen, so all I know to do is stay out of her world as best I can and do what I can to keep her out of mine.  It's events like going to the fireworks the other night where the two worlds collide and then what do you do with that?  Disgrace by association.

Sorry for the rant!

   

This is what happened with us, in a broader sense. And then she pretended we never had the conversations about the important stuff. Wonder how common that is?

With my BPDw, we happily collided on the important stuff so that hasn't become a problem.  But it is very frustrating that we come to agreement on something and then she just does the opposite.  Almost always I would have been fine with doing what we ended up doing anyway so it isn't clear to me why she doesn't just state her position from the start.  I believe she has a very non-confrontational behavior pattern... right up until she doesn't and things get really messy really fast.

My first impression/reaction to the passive stuff is to politely but directly call it out.

"Babe..can you move to let these patient people through?"  (then don't listen or participate in the rant later.  Be open to participating in a civil conversation.)

If she doesn't move, pull rank and deal with your child. 


Book store:  If agreement is reached and you go based on that agreement, when you need to leave let her know, then "As we agreed, I need to leave car leaves in 1 minute if you need a ride."  Then..let her deal with her abrogation.

Say that over and over.  Let her deal with her decision to abrogate.  If that means calling a cab, uber..whatever..

Again...no rants...but you are open to civil conversation.

If you do this consistently it may get better.

Tough spot.

Best,

FF

Just thinking on phrasing my particular situation in a more simplistic way -- when she trashes me to other people to try and get sympathy, most of the things that she is telling them that I do (blame blame blame for her poor lot in life) are really things she does herself.

I can't speak to how common it is other than to say in my house it is very common, including pretending conversations never took place.  In the odd instance I can prove the conversation took place because I have something in writing or whatever, she will either deny harder (distort reality) or panic and go into overdrive trying to change the subject.

When you can prove it...you have something in writing...do you let her off the hook?

It's one thing to take a 10 minute break to catch your breath.  It's another thing to drop a conversation completely..and never bring it back up.

Best,

FF

All very correct.  That's pretty much how things go down these days and, of course, a better path is always there with 20/20 hindsight rather than just being slapped with it in the heat of the moment.  The book thing is complicated because then I'd have to round up my kids, it's in a public place, no telling how she could spin that out of control.  I couldn't leave them there with her.  To make that situation even more of a potential nightmare, if I just rounded up my kids and left, there was a woman there we knew from church.  She probably would have gone straight to her and twisted the whole thing into God-knows-what.
 Today, I would either go by myself and not invite her (or afterwards even tell her that I went) or tell her to go without me.

As I've stated in other places, I've pretty much snoozed her.  I'm civil to her and I don't entertain her b.s., but I don't engage her in anything beyond what is absolutely necessary and I have enjoyed (tricky, because living this life isn't exactly joy) the longest period of peace we have had in over a decade.  That's a combination of me not feeding into her antics and me having a mindset of not letting her antics feed on me.  I'm still waiting to see what will bring it crashing down because it will happen eventually.  Her backing off as she has is purely an act.  She is not cured of anything.  Another good thing that has come of this is my refusal to play has caused her to go out and seek a new host and she has revealed a side of herself to others that they did not previously know.  So far as I'm concerned, she can go around discrediting herself to the world until there is nowhere left to go.  The only way the thing at the park the other night could have been any better is if she had done it to someone we know.


 

Hell no.  I hold her feet to the fire.  She will usually go into panic mode and refuse to acknowledge it and, like a machine gun, start lobbing various unrelated topics at me to try and steer me off course.  I do not let her off the hook and under no instances do I allow her to distort reality.

This is disordered for an adult, but it reminds me of young children on a playground playing well taking turns, and then along comes the bully- who knows well that if they actually hit a kid, they will get in trouble so instead, just sits at the top of the slide, not letting any other kids use it.

A few bullies are sociopaths in training, they just like to cause distress for others. Some are hurting and feel out of control and take it out on others. Some are insecure and that makes them feel they have power.

The adult terms are oppositional defiant disorder, passive aggressive, lack of empathy, but it's rude. Most people are too polite to get into it with rude people but at some point, someone's going to say something.

Yes!  Perfect analogy!




Do I have to pick any single one?  I feel like all of that fits and, sometimes, all at the same time.  I'm nobody's lapdog and we have had very pointed discussions about such things before.  She "knows" these things about herself, but what it all boils down to is she's not going to stop because she feels entitled.



Funny you should mention that.  After last year, as she was revealing herself on social media more than she ever has and drawing lines in the sand, she caught the ire of a friend who all that time had observed, but said nothing.  I wish I could post it here.  Someone she has been friends with for 20 years and one of the most harmless people in the world.  It wasn't a bar brawl Jerry Springer Show-type rebuke, but that of a friend expressing pity and explaining to her that many in her circle are choosing not to engage with her because of her refusal to be civil and telling her that she needed to change her tone.  Two paragraphs, beautifully written.  More than anything, it helped me to see that now others see.  I can only hope that they are starting to doubt all the nasty tales she has probably told them about me through the years rather than thinking I am supportive of her behavior.

OK...so how does this resolve?  Does she continue to "deny" or does she "come around"?

Note:  Holding feet to fire might also not be the best approach.  Often times taking a break and then offering an "easy door to the truth" or "hard door to further confrontation" will lead to acknowledgment and moving past the issue.  Lots of hard nuance here..and I'm sure lots of details I'm missing.

Best,

FF

Thanks for your input.  I can give you more, and more recent, examples.  They can get a little long, but if you have the time for it, it's not a problem for me as I type them up when it happens.  Probably best to look at the more recent ones because my understanding has changed over time as I became wise to things.

(I started type up a more concise reply, but it just wasn't working without the proper context.  Below is another instance that spells out the aftermath.)

During the week I was asked to go bid a potential job on a Saturday morning.  I told her a few days in advance that I intended to do this and there was no objection from her.  She asked if I was going to stop at a store we like to visit and I told her no because of what I was driving. (Important, remember this.)  Fast forward to Saturday morning – I got up and quietly left the house by 7:00.  (She stays up very late and gets up late.)  Everyone was sleeping except my boy and I said goodbye to him and told him where I was going.  A couple of hours later, I get a text asking what I want for breakfast, her assuming I was elsewhere on the property.  I knew what was coming next so I called because I don't bicker over text.  When I told her thanks, but I wasn’t on the property, that I was out looking at the job I told her about, it was an instant, “You never told me that”.  That’s reflex, every time something like this happens that she’s forgotten about (or knows but is lying), it’s instant deflection as though she’s done something wrong.  After a short, pointless, circular discussion about who said what, I told her it didn't matter, I'm not there, I'm with someone, we'll talk when I get back, and I excused myself and hung up.  Needless to say, for the rest of the visit and lunch my mind is now in the wrong place.  She was so insistent that I started to doubt myself about ever telling her.  On the way back I got near that store and thought "I should swing by but can't, shoot" and then I remembered the thing about her asking if I was stopping at that store and telling her "no" because of what I was driving, so I was certain the discussion took place.  The insinuation was as though I had purposely slighted her, like it always is.  If it had been true that I hadn’t told her, benefit of the doubt couldn’t have been that I forgot, it’s always that it was a purposeful slight.  Like it happened because I was trying to get one-up on her and make her doubt herself.  When I got home, I let her start to tear into me: "You NEVER told me anything about going!  You never said you were going anywhere!" and I let her dig her own hole and then I pointed out the thing about her asking if I was stopping at that store and my giving her the reason for why I was not.  Ooops.  Now it was that I had told her I was going on Friday morning and not Saturday and saying it’s not that I didn’t tell her, it’s that I told her a different day.  Well, that’s not what she said on the phone, nor what she said when I got back, and I would have had no reason to tell her Friday and, in turn, she didn't ask me on Friday why I didn't go.  After I catch her contradiction, she deflects this way and that way like a trapped animal trying to get out of a cage and is trying desperately to not acknowledge the truth but continues to blame me.  I told her outright that she is trying to distort things and I won't accept that.  My holding her feet to the fire to get some kind of acknowledgement for at least one of the contradictions not being true went nowhere and I ended it stating the facts and that she needed to own what she was trying to do.  

Later I see a message where she tells the friend how I was adamant that I had told her I was going but that I never really did (no mention of the Friday thing)…. and that she wanted to go to a craft show that morning and it ruined her plans.  Ah ha.  So, more lying by omission.  The craft show is something I never was told about and I’m banking that I wasn’t told after the fact because she knows she never said anything about it.  My current theory is she was going to get up that morning, try to throw a wrench into my plans with the craft show (make me choose between her and someone else again), and couldn't wake herself up to do it.  She got pity from the friend and the friend, as always, was there ready and waiting to pour fuel on the fire.  Two times in the future I have had proper occasion to bring it up again but she will not acknowledge the truth, never has told me about the craft show, and continues to not accept any responsibility for the conflict.  In my eyes it is unresolved, but I cannot force resolution and she will likely never get there.  She has picked up and moved on to several other new conflicts since then.

Have you read our article on JADE? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0)

Most arguments over stuff like this will never be resolved to your satisfaction.  The BPD partner is not going to admit they were wrong.  It's too hard for them.

Most of us try to JADE - Justify, Argue/Attack, Defend, or Explain.  That is using logic to try to change their feelings.

It's usually best not to do any of that.  Explain once, then let it go.

Yes I have, thanks.  It is very useful.  All of this is in the context of when it happened.  The relationship has changed a lot over time.  As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I have just snoozed her (my word) and life has gotten better in the sense of less fighting, but still sucks to be attached to someone like this and you can't always avoid all instances of interaction. 

 

Hey..so how do things resolve when you have "proof"?

As in..how does it end?  Does she ever accept she is wrong?

Best,

FF

I need to expand on earlier advice I gave you. 

The advice about "politely and directly calling it out".  I still suspect that is the best way forward, at least for a while to see how she reacts to you consistently doing this.

However...

You could also take the stance that it's not your issue to solve.

Let her solve it with waitresses, people wanting to get on a trail..or whatever.

Either way it's a tough spot.

Best,

FF

No, never.  She'll just shift gears, go more off the rails, start crying, "Right, it's always me again, I'm always the one that has to change", you know the drill.  She has even declared before that, "words don't have any specific meaning, a word can mean anything you want it to" which is pretty unnerving because there is no end in sight with resolving / accepting anything with that kind of thinking.

True, and in many cases that's what I do these days, but in a case like with the people on the trail, it's not just in me to sit there and ignore it while some poor stranger is being done wrong.  In my mind, then I become a party to the wrongdoing.  If it's one-on-one, that's one thing, but once the public is involved it's all different.  What I've come to accept is there is no ideal outcome and that's what's so awful about it -- having to pick from a list of least-worst outcomes... and be trained to do it at a moments notice without warning.

If it happens so often when I'm out with her, it makes me wonder what's going on when I'm not around.  

 

So they really don't resolve?

As in she never admits or understands that the actually said the thing she is recorded saying?

Want to make sure I get this right...

Best,

FF

Like in terms of sincere apology, hug, make up, lesson learned, move on? -- no. 

Admits: In the very rare instance she admits something, it is with a lot of contempt and not sincere.

Understands: I would have to be inside her head to provide a genuine answer to that.  In the instance about my morning work trip, I do believe she understands because I know she selectively fed different people different narratives to engineer the response she wanted.  That has happened more than once.  Other situations are not so clear.

   

Right, same here, it's like a weird form of projection when they can't face the truth.

So..uncomfortable question/issue.  One to ponder for a bit.


Help me understand the wisdom of making further agreements with a person that abrogates agreements.

Best,

FF

I don't find your question uncomfortable.  There's not and, insomuch as I can avoid it, I don't.  I'm a little lost on the basis for your question.  If it pertains to the examples I laid out above, they have to be taken in the context of when they occurred and my level of understanding at that time.  Those examples were primarily to paint the picture of her behavior and habits.

That said, when you live with someone and are raising children, there are still instances where you have to make decisions and have agreements regarding the kids and whatnot.  Basically, she's going to do whatever she has already decided she is going to do regardless of what words come out of her mouth.  

Otherwise, I would say over 90% of the things I used to confer with her about (as anyone would with a normal, mentally healthy person and not even think about it because they are such trivial day-to-day things) I no longer do, and haven't for probably over a year now.

Kiddos do make things complicated ( I have 8 of them...)  And there is no "solution" to the issue of abrogation, there are things that can make it better.

The less time you can have between the agreement and it coming true..the better.

When they want to make a decision "early"...raise the issue of changing minds and abrogation in a puzzling way...let them wrestle with it.

"Babe..I hear you wanting me to agree to X right now...I still don't understand the apparent change in last weeks Y agreement.  Can you help me out?"


Best,

FF

Thank you for the helpful input, FF.  I listen to all of it and try to exercise the best tactics as best I can even if the result is not always ideal.  The most difficult part is often having four things going at once and then getting blindsided and having to make a reflex decision on how to proceed.

Hopefully I'm not wearing you out, but I can relay one from this morning.  The outcome is different than it would have been 1+ year ago because of how I now deal with her.

The 4th was this weekend.  Monday was a federal holiday.  Our trash day is on Tuesday.  Yesterday I walk outside, see all of my neighbor's trash out, and went back in to tell my kids (one of their chores is to go around and empty all the baskets on trash day).  I tell them and then she tells me, "I don't think they are picking up today because of the holiday yesterday and the schedule is a day off".  ("Thinking" is one of her problems.  For as much as men have the bad rap for not asking for directions, she will never call for clarification or ask a neighbor... or store clerk or gas station attendant or whatever fits the situation).  So I said, "Okay." and went back to work.  She will put an hour's effort into arguing about her hypothesis when an easy answer is a ten second phone call away.  

The trash usually runs about noon.  Wife and kids left to go somewhere about 10:30.  When I went in for lunch, all of my neighbor's trash is gone.

Now, we all know what the logical conversation should have been, but to clarify I'm not being a jerk, in the past:

1. Telling her all of the neighbors have their trash out turns into that she's right and they're all wrong and if you push it then you're taking their side.

2.  Putting the trash out just to err on the side of caution and possibly get the job done would be purely out of spite for her saying the trash won't run that day -- that's poking a finger in her eye.

So, I say, "Okay".  We can miss a week and not have trouble.  I had other things on which to focus.  Don't need the hassle.

This morning she comes out to my shop and says, "Do you have any trash to put out?".  Now, in retrospect, I should have said no and let her leave, but I did say the trash isn't going to run today because all the neighbors had theirs out and at noon it all disappeared.  

This is the sinister part.  She says, "Yesterday you told me none of the neighbors put out their trash!". I most certainly did not because 1: I am not a liar, and 2: seeing the neighbor's trash out is my reminder every week for going back and telling my kids to do their chore.  Also, it just occurred to me -- when she left out yesterday morning, she would have driven right by everybody's trash on the street and clearly seen it.  

At any rate, I told her I did not say anything about whether the neighbors had their trash out or not and, no matter, it's done.  They'll be back next week.  What's different from the past is rather than make a scene in front of my hired help and continue to prosecute it, she pats her hands and leaves.  Before I snoozed her, that never would have ended so easy.

No matter, I know what the next step is and it's to prove me wrong, so she rolled the can out to the street... where it will sit for the next few days.  It just now occurred to me that maybe the trash collector's site has a note on it... and it does:  "The 4th of July holiday will not change your collection day.  All routes will remain as scheduled."




 

So...my input is not to "play the game". 

Another analogy, if you don't want to get muddy...don't wrestle with pigs.  So...what we want to avoid is teaching people "how to be a better wrestler".

Instead...when she puts water down and makes a muddy pit (and you can see this coming...at least most of the time..right?)...decide not to wrestle

Instead...believe in her and her abilities.  (a great tactic for people that "are always right")

And also let her deal with 100% of the consequences.

so..blah blah blah..lets have the kiddos take out the trash.

her..."it's the 4th, I'm a know it all and you need to  listen to me..!"

you:  (important to stay relaxed) Babe..if you want to handle trash, I'm behind you all the way.   What do you suggest?  (see how you handed her the problem)

if she accepts it..drop it and say nothing else..let her have it.

if she dances around "sounds like it's safer to have the kiddos just handle it now, unless you have another idea"  (see how you hand it back)

the next day when she tries to hand it back to you after screwing it up "Hey babe I believe in you (not in a smart azz way...but relaxed)...you've got this.  If you want to change things around in the future...let's talk more next Wed for date night"

So you aren't strident about it..just relaxed.  If she comes after you..be puzzled.

"Babe..this task seemed really important to you yesterday, today..not so much.  Am I seeing this correctly?"  (keep handing it back)

Do you get the vibe?

Best,

FF

Thanks for the strategies.  I know it takes time to hammer out a post like that.

As far as not getting muddy, that's along the lines of my having snoozed her.  When she "knows" something that I know is wrong, I leave her with it.  It's hers, she owns it then.  I'm not in the business of having to convince her.

I get what you're saying with your version of the exchange but as I interpret that (based on past experience), some of that would have left me muddy.  I got away unscathed yesterday and as far as I'm concerned, she did own it.  I told her it was trash day, she told me I was wrong, end of discussion.  The ball is in her court.  With respect to, "What do you suggest" she made her suggestion by saying Tuesday was not the day and I moved on.

I get the vibe.  I'm not enough of an actor to have that detailed of an exchange, but I think we're generally on the same page.  I don't get flustered, I hand things back to her, done.  It does bother me that she comes back the next day saying that I said things that I didn't say (which I'm sure is excused away as some reflex reaction to not take responsibility and related to her likely disorder) but I still don't press it.  Her doing that -- is that what qualifies as "gaslighting"?  Effectively call me a liar, okay.  No point in making a federal case out of it.  It's what she does because she will never accept responsibility for anything.  It's not something I will win in person and when she's not doing it here, she's continually calling me a liar to people within her circle to try and generate victim status for herself.

Admittedly, I do resent that my life has morphed into this business of having to run an in-patient treatment facility.  I accept that is what I have here, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.  My goal was to have a happy, cooperative marriage and her aim while expressing the same goal was to defraud me into believing she was someone she knew she was not for the express purpose of getting me trapped in marriage and unleashing the real her afterwards.

Perhaps back out a bit more to big picture.

In your version there was a "yes no" thing.  Right/wrong.

In my version there is a "I'm not sure, if you want to handle this I'll trust you to handle it."

That sets you up good for the next day, because you just stick with trusting her to handle it..believing in her.  (that keeps you away from debating details)

Have you ever noticed that they like to descend into details, with little twists here and there that lets them off the hook?  (so..stay away from details)


Best,

FF

Yes, in that context I see the contrast you're trying to illustrate.  I'll give it a shot when the opportunity arises.  I'm sure it's going to take some time until I can retrain myself yet again.




Yes, of course.  Or, barring that, she'll just outright make up exchanges that never actually took place.  In her world the "details" are more often fabricated than fact.

So...even with made up details, perhaps try to find a way to breezily move past that into "I believe in you"...or in the off chance that she really is going to walk away from something you are going to handle it without discussion with her.

"oh sure, lots of possibilities..I'm sure you've got this" and if she wants to descend into details perhaps ask if she is sure, perhaps reference past "misunderstandings" and you don't want any part of that..

There aren't any magic words..but over time a different strategy and "tone" will likely shift things.

Best,

FF

Well that will just get my head chopped off.  Only she is allowed to reference anything from the past.  It's difficult for me to convey how genuinely difficult it is to converse with her regardless of how tactfully it is done.  The guilty verdict and sentencing are already decided before any words are ever spoken.  I have dealt with all types from all walks of life and can pretty much get along with anyone, including people that I disagree with.  I have never encountered someone as opposed to solutions as her.  It's like her goal in life is to maintain a persistent open wound.

Your strategies are all well-taken, though and I will try to apply them where I can.

   

What may help you is not how to change her but how to redefine how you deal with her.  Over on our Tools & Skills Workshops board (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0) there are a few topics on Boundaries.

Boundaries are counter-intuitive in some ways.  You know she resists boundaries, it's typical with acting-out persons, especially with people with BPD.  Since you can't force her to behave well, then you can set boundaries for yourself, boundaries are for you.  Here's a simplistic example, "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."  In other words, consequences she has to deal with.  Does that make sense?  Follow the link and read those articles for a better explanation.

Obviously this doesn't fix all the problems, though I hope it can help how you deal with them.  Expect push back, what we call extinction bursts.  It won't be easy but with all the collective wisdom here — which strategies usually work and which usually don't — and with your other local support, you can accomplish so much more than you think possible.

This made me recall a situation where I was out in public and some woman got really rude with me, out of the blue. She was with her family and nobody said a word.

I was shook up for a while after that. I wondered why I just couldn't brush it off. I wondered - did I do something to offend her? But what she said upset her was way off of anything I did. She was accusing me of doing something I didn't do and I had not ever seen her before.

Now I realize this woman might have had some disorder, and her family was quiet due to not wanting to set her off further. My own reaction is interesting as it's similar to how I react to my BPD mother's accusations- and why rather than just forget the incident, I was questioning myself.

Foreverdad is right on with boundaries. You just don't do these things to people, but if someone doesn't have appropriate boundaries they wouldn't consider that.

So...why did you agree to this arrangement?

Did you explicitly agree or only tacitly agree?

Best,

FF

This is not anything that I have agreed to.  "Allowed" is her sense of entitlement.

When I bring up anything from the past she goes into one of her denial fits, yet she feels that she can bring up anything from the past and use it as a tool (double standard).  My response to her if I bring up the past and she goes off the rails is that just as she is allowed to reference the past, so am I.  Equity works both ways.  However, I only ever bring up the past when it is directly relevant and an absolute must to illustrate the point, but not as casually as I would with a normal healthy person that is capable of civil discussion because it is guaranteed things will get ugly.

Thanks.  I'll go through them.  I don't know if you have read through all of this thread.  I realize it is long and there is a lot of activity on this forum.  I'm not one of these co-dependent types, which seems to be a majority here.  I keep my feet firmly planted and what I would consider one boundary is my having snoozed her, which has brought relative peace.  Trivial things where she supposedly wants to collaborate, I do not engage her at all.  That is another boundary and it is for me.  She can put the flower pot wherever she wants.  If she is trying to do something uncivil to provoke a response like put the flower pot in my chair at the kitchen table, I tell her that is not acceptable, and after that I let her pound sand.  Disordered or not, she's an adult.  She knows the difference between right and wrong.  It is not my job to teach her.       

This is one positive that has come out of this whole grueling ordeal.  It has given me a greater understanding of the world.  Prior to all of this I probably would have lumped this poor woman's family into the same pot as her, but now I look at these things with a greater sense of compassion.  You can never know all of the ordeals that someone else has to contend with behind closed doors.  Almost every action likely has a reason behind it and they likely had a good reason for remaining silent.

I had to do a lot of work on co-dependency to put a halt to those tendencies, so I can share something I learned that might help.

First it's good that you don't tolerate the behavior or enable it, and also that you don't see yourself as needing to teach her, she can learn on her own.

What I did learn is that while we can control our own behavior, we can't control someone else's. So yes, if she puts the flower pot on her chair, then you have control of your response.

But we can't control someone else's behavior- so if she's rude to a stranger, it's up to them to respond.
Unless she's putting someone in danger in which case I would call 9-11. But if she's just being a jerk in general, that's not something you can change.

Natural consequences are a good teacher. This is, if she's being rude to a stranger, and the stranger gets angry - well that's what happens. You know we learned that in kingergarden- play nice with the other kids, don't block the slide. She doesn't play nice? Others will respond. I would say, let them. Whether she learns from that or not, we can't help that.

The most important thing is your boundary and that you don't tolerate it.

why do you remain married?

no judgment or implication behind the question; is it circumstantial? staying together for the kids?

Yep, I don't disagree with any of that.  It is still difficult to be present for a situation like you described, or a situation like I used to start this thread, and sit on the sidelines while an injustice against an innocent stranger is taking place.  You're not wrong, it's just to me that it's the natural human response to right a wrong against someone that doesn't deserve it and dealing with BPD's requires all of these things from us that are not natural human responses.

Understood.  Very fair question.

Yes, first and foremost, kids are the priority in every decision I make and the thought of them not having me present as a buffer is not acceptable to me.  She would absolutely lose her marbles were I to divorce and I fear how she would warp them.

Second, I'm not a 9-to-5 W2 wage earner.  My work life is inextricably linked to the property that we own together.  It's not something I do from a laptop sitting in the spare bedroom.  Being self-employed is already an uphill battle in so many respects.  If it turns into a liquidate the property, move, etc. proposition, my business is sunk.  If it turns into something I have to buy my way out of, I can't support two households.  As a way out, I've pursued going back to the regular workforce (with a lot of good outside help) and nothing has come of it, but that's going off on a whole different tangent that's not really relevant here.      

Yes, it's uncomfortable seeing your partner bully someone else.

Stepping in to "rescue" the bullied person is a natural impulse but in this situation the pwBPD will see it as an attack on them, go into victim mode and react ( see Karpman drama triangle).

The problem with taking victim mode is that, if someone feels like a victim, then they don't see themselves as being accountable, so they don't learn from the experience. This might be one reason why your wife just does it over and over, but she might actually just not care and keep doing it anyway.

Most strangers would probably disengage, decide she's not worth dealing with. Some might actually give it back to her, but then, they become the problem.

This is hard to understand from the point of view of being empathetic. Most of us learned to "play nice" on the playground, so it's hard to know why anyone would do otherwise.

@Couper

Just came upon this thread, and I have to say:  I can relate.

My uB/ or maybe CPND stbx W has consistently:
- blocked the aisle with her shopping cart
- walked on the left side of the sidewalk
- driven in the left lane - often with a mile of traffic in back of her

If I note this behavior, I'm obviously not on her side.

Early in our relationship, I perceived this behavior as a sort of obliviousness, then later as a symptom of low empathy (before I knew that lack of empathy was a symptom of B cluster PDs). 

I haven't thought about this pattern in years, but this thread made it clear as day - in addition to the empathy aspect, in my W's case, these behaviors were/are intended to gain attention, force others to accommodate her, make her feel important/superior, and generally act as a power play that forces others to yield to her.   It's like it just snapped into focus.

Wow.

Thank you.  It is a comfort to know that I am not alone, albeit I am sorry to hear that you are suffering the same.  Having to pick the least-worst of options and settle for it is not an enviable position.

Mine does all of the things you mentioned, including driving 45 mph on the interstate where everybody else is doing 75 mph.  Doesn't matter that what she's doing is terribly unsafe -- everyone else is wrong for driving so fast and she is right.  Maybe someday she'll get ticketed for impeding the flow of traffic... either before or after an accident.  Who cares who is right when you're in traction?  Hopefully without the kids in the car.  Sorry, going off on a tangent again.



Understanding evolving over time is that thing with hindsight that makes you keep kicking yourself -- "If only I knew then what I know now".  Obliviousness is exactly what I chalked it up to, too.  I think it is natural for people that aren't screwed up in the head to want to give those around them the benefit of the doubt, to think someone's mistakes aren't intentional -- though when they are intentional, they aren't really mistakes, are they?



Another way I have phrased it is that my wife thrives on negative attention.  I can only come to that conclusion because so often when she knows what she is doing will have a bad outcome, she will pursue it with a passion, anyway.