BPDFamily.com

Hi, I'm new here, but not new to this problem nor the literature etc. that's been created in regard to it. I'm interested to know if anyone here has mostly stopped helping their adult child, not necessarily out of exasperation but to see if that might work instead. I've been giving this a lot of thought and am starting to think the McLean experts are wrong and that the approach they advocate for families is merely exacerbating BPD. Sure, their techniques can help manage the problem, but they never cure it, and they really just require family members to change themselves, when really the change needs to come from the person with BPD. (This is assuming a mostly healthy family, of course.) I've read about how "tough love" techniques have failed in other situations, but maybe they weren't done as highly consciously as the way in which I'm suggesting. *Edited to clarify I'm talking about an ADULT child.

Sort of.  Going to be a long answer but good to share all the drama so others might learn from it all. Hope some good can come from so much suffering.    In that I got to a point I could no longer live with my adult BP - all too toxic.   I found a residential program I got him into and increased my boundaries.  This journey started 7 years ago with BPD only unearthed in last year.   I tried using the skills while he was damaging  the house causing thousands of dollars in damages.  Called police during suicidal video he shared which turned into a72 hr  hold - had 2 different therapists call local police as worried for my safety! .   I now limit my  communication,  I block his number if his dialogs go to threats or vulgar.  I limit my fiscal funds and what I give is tied to continued  full time employment, and mental health therapy towards improvement.   It’s worked in aspects.  He’s slipped backwards using marijuana vapes which is a cycle he’s had prior.  Then begins to binge/ purge- stupid logic  and stupid actions. .  He no longer drives as I won’t support his SR 1 filing for his multitude of speeding tickets as a high risk driver.  and now he’s back on marijuana vape pens  i will pull back on my support too. Costs 80.00 a week and makes 16.00 a hour.  Ridiculous decision and habit.   I will say In general l feel more at peace.  I have grieved the what he could have been. His friends are maturing and thriving and my heart hurts to see how different my kiddo life is.    I’ve tried my best to help him.  I’m at peace with that.  I spent  most of my savings on various rabbit holes in my attempt to “fix”.  9 different Medications form ADD to SSRI to mood stabilizers.  - tms -personality testing- iop for ocd -Iop for BPD, ptsd and recently residential he discharged on day 17 of 45.  Now he’s out sane  cycle reoccurring.   He lies to himself and others.  Has trouble holding  a job down beyond a month-  always, wants to start over again in a new location.  Each job unhealthy for his mental health. Wants everyone to accommodate him as he’s mentally ill.  He’s always looking for a hand out - his thinking is very off. He is always a  victim. -claims has  been abused mentally and physically.  Says whatever gets the reaction and attention he desires at the moment. . As late he’s told a therapist he is bi sexual.  This got him a hour family therapy session “attention” .  And truthfully I think was not fulfilling as I didn’t react as I could care less on what sex he loves.  He’s very Emotionally immature and  nothing is ever his fault- He uses splitting  and triangulation as tools to blur the facts. He’s strained his relationship with his grandparents our neighbors his childhood friends, local police.   He’s my son and I love him dearly,  I hope he finds the right therapist or finds the motivation to live a better life.  I’ve changed my will and he is now part of a trust - to be monitored by a attorney with a modest monthly payout upon my death.  My income and savings  will now begin to repair the house he tore up and to my wants.  He no longer is my sole focus. If he struggles,. I am peace with this.

Losttrust, You are the bomb! I read your stuff here yesterday (first time I'd ever visited this site), and it was the reason I posted asking the question. I could see my future in your words, and I realized that what you have been through is exactly what I would go through if I continue helping my almost 25-year-old also marijuana dependent son (I'm only 2 years into the bizarre behavior at this point, although 7 before that with seemingly-uncomplicated-by-BPD suicidal depression). Your description of the mental health help available as "rabbit holes" is spot on! I realized a few days ago that the reason the McLean program works is because (other than the DBT skills taught) it really relies on the people surrounding the pwBPD to very much change the way they behave to accommodate the pwBPD, which is really just exacerbating the problem. As a sister of someone with BPD, it was fairly easy for me to jettison that relationship and insist on her behaving as I expect or I would not interact. As a parent it has been excruciating, but I'm realizing that that is really the only recourse when dealing with this personality disorder. I too have had to mourn who he could have been, etc., but I have mourned. And now it's time to move on. I lived with this growing up with my sister and I always just thought, "Why is she doing this?" I do believe it's a choice and that until someone very important to them calls them out completely and refuses to deal with them until they change, they won't. She has improved, at least in regards to how she deals with me. She still tortures our mother, her former employees, and her husband, but there's nothing I can do about that. If it's genetic, then I'm sorry I passed it on to my son. But it's his life now. And yes, I'm going to "go there": If he kills himself, so be it, but I will no longer be held hostage to that possibility. Losttrust, I'm not sure if it's possible to communicate offline, but if you'd like to, I think it could be good for both of us but I completely understand if not. Also, I hope asking that isn't violating any rules of the forum. If it is, mods please let me know and I'll delete it and not do again :)

hi Leaf56,

I have not heard of the McLean program.  My stepdaughter is, in my opinion, cut off the way you described.  I tried that with my Mom ( both r BPD) and for the most part it worked but only temporarily.

Can u give us some more insight?  I would like to hear more.

As far as contacting someone through PM, yes it is allowed.  It took me several months to realize I had a PM, though, when I first started posting here.  So don't get discouraged if at first u don't get a response.  Also, some r comfortable with that some aren't.

b

The McLean program is the inpatient one in Boston affiliated with Harvard, started by Gunderson, the late psychiatrist who identified BPD as a personality disorder. It's where they pioneered DBT as a treatment. I don't have anything against DBT, it's really just Zen buddhism and only a slight variation of CBT. What I don't think are helpful are parts of the family guidelines they've developed, which I think rely heavily on the response of the family toward the person with BPD. It's not that I don't think it would be helpful in the immediate sense to the person with BPD if the family uniformly reacted to them in that way, it's just that I don't think that it can be called a treatment if it relies on the reactions of others. Ultimately, the person with BPD is going to have to learn how to react to other people in a normal way, so what I see as continued (although lesser) walking on eggshells is not in the end going to help. If the family members are mostly normal, it's not up to them to change to accommodate the family member who isn't, and I believe that doing so will only ultimately delay the person with BPD's recovery.

Seeing several anecdotes here on this board over the past few days with people still dealing with adult children in their 30s and 40s, I realized how important it is to force these adult children to be responsible for themselves as early as possible. I recognize and have felt the tremendous guilt involved in doing this, but realize now that I'm actually doing my son a disservice by continuing to help him. I also recognize that the only thing keeping most people from ending their help of the person with BPD is that guilt and the fear that the person with BPD will kill themselves, resulting in more guilt (and grief from loss). I'm to the point where I recognize all of this as manipulation and am now refusing to continue to be manipulated by it, even if that means the end results is my son's suicide. I can see now that this will continue until I put a stop to it by discontinuing my help. Will in-patient treatment, therapy, etc. etc. keep these folks alive? Yes, probably. But it will also keep them in this state for the rest of their lives until their enablers, whether that be parents, other relatives, spouses, friends, or therapists, say "enough," my life and the lives of the rest of the family are worth the same as yours and just because you're supposedly in pain does not mean that you have the right to ruin all of our lives.

I don’t have the answers but at some point I became part of the problem.  By stepping out or back it’s allowing my so to stretch to support himself snd seek new helpers with fresh eyes ears and ideas.  None of which has been bad.  While I get time to heel myself and regroup

I think if you can step back it is a great idea.  I think so many with adult children who are mentally ill just can't do so, however, so hence the Mclean theory?  For people's own self esteem, I think saying "I tried everything" and then trying everything (modifying our behavior for their sake) is necessary for Our well being.

In my case it's my stepdaughter who I suspect is BPD so I can walk away, I didn't raise her, we have no real bond other than I know my husband loves her and I love him so by default have tried to love her too.  She doesn't reciprocate so it's tough to even like her.

My husband has found it easy to walk away, she is married and has her own family now.  If that situation ever changes, perhaps we will try DBT.  I have presented it to him several times but he's just not interested.

So there's one person I know who has backed away, who isn't modifying his behavior for her anymore (when she was a child, he did this a lot - moreso than his daughter's bio mom).  I have a good friend with a son who is schizophenic.  She kicks him out, has called the police on him when he jumped out of her moving car. she is afraid he will end up homeless.  But, sometimes she takes him back in to her home.  Until she can't deal with it anymore and then she send him to live with his Dad.  I think it's incredibly difficult if the adult child cannot hold a job, and is by themself, we tend to want to "save them."  but everyone does have their limit

There's a world of difference between schizophrenia and BPD. If my son were schizophrenic, I would feel obligated to try to find him some sort of services and a home of some kind (not with me). I would never allow someone with schizophrenia to live with me. I would never be able to sleep for fear I would be harmed in the night, and it's simply unfair to anyone else living in the home. Since BPD is an axis 2 disorder, he can change, he just doesn't want to because he hasn't had to. His dad allows him to live at his house, which is a boarding house of sorts anyway. That's his choice. If my son were facing homelessness, I would not take him in. As one of my other sons said laughing, "He'd never be homeless. He's too much of a princess. He'd figure something out." And I'm pretty sure he's right. Now that I'm fairly certain he's not schizophrenic or bipolar or something that he can't help, there's no reason why he can't support himself. He's almost 25, has a college degree, is good-looking and extremely fit and healthy. This whole thing is just ridiculous. I'm so happy that I've so far wasted less than 2 years on this charade of helplessness and unwillingness to take personal responsibility. It's pathetic, disgusting, and a travesty. Sorry for the vent, but I'm just so angry and sick of it!

While the details of your son's story vary from my daughter's - the essential dynamics are the same.  And I echo that the constant re-adjusting of family members only continues to feed the source of the problem. It feels almost like when you take too many anti-biotics. Eventually they don't work and you're back to where you started.

9 years of up and down - a year of heavy drug use and really risky sexual behavior - and a mother (my ex wife) who continues to do her best but is really just enabling our daughter's behavior out of fear - and I am feeling totally taken for granted and totally isolated.

I see no other option now but to not draw a line so much as keep my distance.   I too am at peace with my decision - and now comes the part to just be at peace.

Rev

Good question, and there is a difference between helping and enabling.  Sometimes helping and enabling are at odds with each other.  My adult son busted through every boundary I established when he came home to live with me after college graduation.  He devolved rapidly to the point of violence toward me and damages to my home.  He had ( has) BPD with  a mood disorder and substance abuse.  I told him I would advocate for him to get him help etc and he wouldn't hear it. The  question is, did it work?  It depends on how you look at it: I am trying to see the positive and we are currently both  alive ; I don't live in terror of him any more .  He and I are estranged because I refused to send him $ for drugs. However, before it was a life threatening situation. 

In it's own way - I'm where you are. No way would I let my daughter move in with me. I tried to suggest to her mother that enabling her was not such a good idea, but for my ex-wife, it's the lesser of two evils. So I chose to respect that.

I'm not sure where my daughter's drug use is at. Her bad habits that are visible are trying to live a lifestyle that is well, well above her paygrade. And her sex life is full, full of risks.  My gut tells me that's she's looking for a doctor or a lawyer or a business man to be a trophy wife for.  A big source of tension is that she knows to her core how little I respect that. She went away to college 8 years ago and so has been living independently. I have always lived by the rule that the only expectation I have of my children is that they have expectations for themselves. That's the good part of my relationship to my daughter. But when the drug use started 4 years ago, well that just lifted her from being head-strong - to being rude - to now being completely reckless.

I have more than enough education and professional experience to understand where she is headed if she doesn't change the course of her life. My ex was unable to muster the courage to arrange for a family intervention. So from today - I am going to begin to transfer the consequences of that decision back to my ex where those consequences belong.

That last piece, the residual frustration I have for my ex-wife's choices and the acceptance I need to work on, that's my next place to devote time and energy to.

Have a great day everyone.

Rev

Rev, I WISH my son were a daughter so that he could be the trophy wife of a doctor or lawyer. He has said that he wishes the same numerous times.

I am only just beginning on this course of action. 20 years ago, my daughter dropped out of college after her second semester, and started going from job to job and getting fired.Then she left for NY. She began a gradual descent into the mess that her life is in now. Along the way, she destroyed three marriages and caused countless disruptions among mutual friends, by causing people to have to take sides, etc. I can only face two of my friends, who knew her when she was a child and can have some understanding of what I am going through. The rest of my acquaintances? I am ashamed to face them. She was going behind my back, asking for money and spinning yarns about how I threw her out into the street.

Last Saturday I, after a heartbreaking session on the telephone, decided that I had to break away. I am not willing to spend the rest of my life wallowing in guilt as I pour money down the drain trying to band aid all her poor decisions. I thought of setting up some kind of trust fund for her and her child, but even if I did, she is living under an assumed name and receiving social services for her child but not for herself.

I started by blocking my landline phones, and in time I will gain the courage to block the cell phone, too. She may still email me, but it won't be as intense as telephone conversations. My grieving has commenced.

Good for you! Big hugs!

I would really like to hear from more people about this issue, too. It is not easy to go against nature and "abandon" your own flesh and blood. But I must admit that my days have regained some kind of peace, now that I have blocked my DD. When the phone rings, I don't have that familiar adrenaline surge as I brace myself for another request for money, or a spate of verbal abuse. I had a hard time differentiating between enabling and helping. Now, I reason that if she were using her real name, she would easily qualify for SSI. What I was doing was enabling her to continue to make disastrous decisions. Every dollar I sent her reinforced her decision to live under a false identity.

I am in my 60's and don't want to spend the remainder of my life being jerked about like a puppet on a string. I have been robbed of my grandchildren because of her crazy decisions. When the third grandchild was born, I spent so much on diapers, formula, toys, books for new mothers. Why did it take me so long to see that I was pouring into a bottomless hole?

Please, could more people post on this topic? It is very validating to hear the stories of others.

Marzipan, the following from your post resonated so strongly with me

I've still been talking to my almost 25-year-old son (he lives with his dad) as long as he's respectful, which he has been for a while. Now that I'm no longer willing to do much of anything for him, he's shifted gears to "just asking for how to do" [fill in the blank]. The blanks from the conversation I *just* had with him were: how to get a drivers license and can I just drive him to the DMV, how he can buy a car, how to find a new therapist who will take him (after he imploded the last one), how he can move to another part of the country and start new, how he can get a woman to be with him if he's not making a ton of money, how he can stand up for himself, and on and on. To every one of these, I answered something along the lines of "I don't know" or "I've already told you before" or "google it" or "I'm sure you can figure it out for yourself." I told him that I think he's just trying to involve me because that means he's taking less responsibility for himself. That enraged him, so it made me feel like I was on the right track. The more enraged he gets, the more I think I'm doing the right thing. I'm hoping the rage will activate the underlying real self. Again, I'm just experimenting and wondering if anyone else has tried doing this very deliberately to see what happens.

Thank you for this... after three years I have finally laid that boundary.   I had a similar reaction. I think that we as parents need to convey that our boundaries are firm. What do you mean by "experiment"?

Rev

Hi Rev,
By "experimenting," I mean I'm trying different approaches to not helping to see which things work best since the goal is to end up with a self-sufficient adult.

Thanks for the clarification.  My daughter is bi-polar so my experience doesn't apply - except to draw the line that as long as she is not taking meds, not following her other treatments, there's no conversation that is possible.

Hang in there as you try and figure things out.

It can be a real grind. Sometimes I feel guilty about feeling relieved that I don't have to deal with her. But when the reality of the last three years hit, I am not sure my own mental health can take any more abusive and entitled behavior.

Keep us posted. Maybe I'll pick up some new perspectives.

Rev

Thanks, Rev. I'm doing my best to hang in. It's really, really hard 24/7. Since I lost faith in therapists and the party line about how to deal with this, I really feel like I'm just conducting my own research. As you say, it is a total grind. Like you, I also feel relieved when I'm not dealing with my son, and like you, I also feel guilty about that, too. And like you, I know that my own mental health will be at risk if I expose myself to too much abusive/entitled behavior. I can't believe this is happening all of the time.

Three years steady - I can't remember once getting together without there being real tension to all out warfare...  It's such a vicious cycle.  I just need a break.  Maybe I will call her in six months.

Rev

On a similar note of method, I have a 50 year old daughter BPD and I find I attract many female friends who turn out to have Un BPD as well. Over the years I think I have tried to gauge whether it is possible to have a friendship with someone with BPD as I learn more and more about coping methods.
Of course, each person has different traits, behaviours and levels of severity so I assumed I would find a way to learn how to cope with my daughter better. Wrong!
I have Complex PTSD and they all trigger the s##t out of me and I go downhill quickly after being dragged into the nightmare again. I then have to find a kind way to disengage. The best way to disengage from a new friend with BPD is to tell the truth about their behaviour or their thinking. Kindly but truthfully. This always makes them split and view me as a bad person.
I like your method of being vague and not knowing. It is kinder than telling the truth which I am guessing hurts them and angers them.
I dont want to hurt anyone if I can help it. I intend to try your method as well, though it is against my nature, I think it will work to stop attracting female friends with BPD.
After 14 years of no contact from my daughter despite repeated and varied attempts on my part, I have reached a point of not wanting to re-engage. The milder levels of the others I have interacted with and less emotional involvement have shown me that it is impossible to live the peaceful life I want if I have anyone with BPD in it at any level at all.
So, I basically do not want my daughter back in my life at this stage.
I have finally realised just yesterday that after the death of my Narcissistic Mother, No contact with my Narc brother(my abuser) and Narc sister and the rejection from my daughter, I no longer have any person in my life that finds me "Not Good Enough".
I am 68. I want to have some years of self-acceptance without doubt and peace. I intend to focus on that as I feel to maintain hope is hopeless and futile after 14 years of trying everything.
Dont tell me to "leave the door open" please...I have left it open, begged, explained, used every tool. She doesn't need me so she doesn't love me.
I'm done and I am at peace with that. I lost my son 20 years ago to death and my daughter 14 years ago to BPD and a wealthy controlling Narcissistic husband. The combination of their disorders, his wealth and his family's wealth status, seems to have kept her destructive, disruptive behaviours in check with him.
I have not seen my grandson since he was 6. He is now 20.
 I refuse to suffer for the next 20 years I may have left to live this wonderful life. I intend to live how I would live without anyone judging me with my wonderful husband, two Pomeranians and my adorable black cat, coffee, Netflix, my little home , good food and a peaceful day with no drama at all. None at all. I'm done.

Flossy, you are a rock star! I don’t know you but I feel so proud of you! I hope no one dares to tell you to “keep the door open.” If so, I’ve got your back, lady!

Yep - rock star.  Thanks for this.

My door is not open - if my daughter knocks, I will answer. And then it really depends on what I see (rather than what I hear).  And I am not holding my breath. I too am getting on with life. Hard as that is, the last three years have produced little in the way of positive results and much in the way of hurt and heartache.

So again.  R.O.C.K. S.T.A.R.!

Rev

Unfortunately here to report My son is back and my life back to turmoil.  Boomerang mode- my son went from residential that he self discharged early, to move to his Friends house short term and back to his home town and his dads place which seemed to be going as well as it gets for a month  - until a Covid scare and his dad dropped him to me for quarantine as they had unvaccinated in household.  So he got tested 2x both negative but symptoms supported positive with high fever loss of taste and smell.   And he now is dug in my house post Covid quarantine  - lost his job/ quit.  And his father no longer has interest to have him return.  I’ve been working to support him on a move out to a room /bath in a college town he enjoys.  He’s gone to dental and medical to prepare for move and now has lost/misplaced his wallet and ID.  He has always been forgetful and tested /treated with concerta in HS for ADD but no meds since for this specific.  He believes much tied to low testosterone which he went in for blood tests last week. The hunt for his wallet continues today.  And replace my cards ordered.  He has returned with his sour moods, constant complaint and negativity, threats and physical damage to house continues.  What these folks need are group homes gender and age range specific for each group type as identified. - for a long term one year or more stay.  With councilors to help with medicine and emotional CBT DBT -have a job requirement while doing house choirs and be daily monitored by professional help.  And these ought to be mandatory vs voluntary if families call authorities for help with substantial documentation to support this need. . Hospital holds do nothing, residential treatment centers are too broad brushed and don’t hire qualified staff for boarderline types and unique personalities they hold, tales they spin. Ect.  Most general therapists can’t help a BPD just become part of the web. At most they provide a activity and some ate perceived as positive as give the BPD attention they seek if liked by patient.  I’ll write back if any results in testosterone tests yields anything of value.  And as his money deprecated from past job I trust past cycles will repeat as I won’t buy or support his marijuana use. It does nothing to help just costs money and brings on binge and purge habits

I disagree. I think they all need to be told no one is going to help them in any way as soon as they show signs of this. I don’t want my tax dollars paying for even my own son’s “care” since there’s nothing wrong with him. He’s able-bodied, average IQ, college educated, grew up in an affluent home with solid work ethic, no abuse, no one used any substances, etc. No, he just needs to understand ASAP that the remedy is work—full-time, the end.

Thank you so much. I haven't come on or posted for years, but I wanted some people to know that a mother doesn't have to be a monster to give up and accept that it's over. I guess the death of my son has helped me learn when the grieving process reaches acceptance that's someone is gone. She's gone too.

If she knocked on my door, she would not be invited in, I would talk to her outside. She would be told to go to a Therapist and come up with a list of. her boundaries and rules. What she wants from me and what she doesn't want. She would be told I will consider those rules. She would not be given access to me through phone, social media or email. Only one access that has strict rules to limit her ability to come into my mind in any way.

If the list of her boundaries and rules was provided within a certain time frame, there would then be rules set in place to cover how often I would have contact with her. A set date twice a year at most. A set place, not in my home or hers. No casual contact allowed. No ability on her part to take her time.

I would follow your guidelines of communication. She would not be allowed to expect emotional support from me.

Even if these guidelines were followed, I doubt it would work for me.

I doubt it would work at all. I will not have hope for it to work.

I have taken her out of my will. She doesn't need money. Her husband makes $750,000 per year and his parents are millionaires. I have put two young battlers I barely know in my will as my beneficiaries and my husband has done the same. They are honest and they try to live a life as grownups. They haven't succeeded completely but they self-examine and keep trying despite the pain of growing up. I admire that. I think its what makes a quality human. Bravery. Courage. It's what's lacking in these "4 year old's in adult bodies."

Thank you for understanding my stance. I just wanted someone on here to see when searching through the lists, that someone else has reached a point where they say "fk this, I'm done" and mean it and slam the door, then lock it. It doesn't make you a monster. It makes you have hope to live some small part of your life with joy.

Best wishes.

Thank you so much. I appreciate your words and understanding.
Yes. What you see is most important. I have begun to notice that there is a facial expression that shows in people with BPD often. Especially females.
Initially it is a cutesy look, a childlike expression that many could interpret as fun-loving and joyful, beguiling.
After years of exposure I see this look as cunning. A look of joyful cunning and mischief. Impish. I even googled the meaning of the word Imp and it fits. The look of a naughty 4 year old. A brat. They know what they do and they know when they get away with it and when they cant, they move on. It is deliberate conscious behaviour. They dont get to do it with me any more. I'm done.
Best wishes.

Yes! YES! Please keep posting every once in a while. I am so inspired by you and understand you 1,000%. It’s because of you and others who have had the wisdom and strength to take this course that I’ve been able to stop at 2 years instead of 20. It’s so obvious to me now because of you and others like you who take the time to post on this topic.

I want to change that last sentence to read. I basically do not want my daughter back in my life.

Forget "at this stage". I dont want her back in my life. A therapist told me years ago when I asked about hope "It is futile".  I believe it. I am not willing to do it any more. I'm done. I keep repeating that. It helps.