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Hi all!

So over the course of the last couple of years the relationship with my sons GF had tanked and now just recently i've been cast out of my sons life by him. Its a crazy wild ride. After doing a boat ton of reading and research it looks like my sons GF may be a Covert Narcisisst and my Son whom ive been blind to the signs for several years seems to be nearly a text book Overt Narcissist. These are obviously non clinical diagnosis but all actions and reactions align nearly checkbox for checkbox for both my son and his gf. The story is long so ill do my best to paraphrase it...

Last year the GF - Consistantly would attempt to sabatoge functions that had been planned by all by either not requesting time off from work even though she knew weeks to months in advance or shortening said function because of this excuse or that excuse.

Thanksgiving last year- son & GF have fight earlier in the day, son shows up early afternoon GF leads us all to believe ahe will be along later, dinner time arrives no GF, we hold off an additional 45 min and finally she says shes not coming. Im upset but save face for the sake of preserving the family gathering. I am later told I need to stop acting like her mother because she waited all day to tell us she wasnt coming when I expressed how disrespected I felt and that our family values are even if we are mad at our significant others we atill go to the said family function because it isnt the families fault they're disagreeing..
Though im suppose to validate her feelings and her family values

Christmas came - No GF for the holiday (shes still upset about me being upset over Thanksgiving and how I need to validate her feelings.

March this year - surprise call from the GF SShe wants to talk - Great lets talk... Her lack of attendence as well as other foot dragging instances were discussed. It was said we felt as if she was avoiding us with each time she drug her feet, didnt follow through with something she said ahe was going to do, and didnt attend family functions. We also said we werent asking her to come over all the time but we would like to see her from time time... All was fine at the end of that.

End of May this year - Son asked to have a small backyard bash with his dad for their birthdays in July.. Ok fine... GF is made aware of said plan and we say we hope to see you there.. Here response in a playful tone was Maaayyybeee followed by a giggle.

July - Birthday Bash Day - Son arrives no GF... When asked where she is? We are told she had gone out with her GF the night before and was to hung over to come. Im upset again. No GF for the BF (my sons) birthday party.

Discussions take place with my son & his dad which he states how upset we are that she wasnt there for him (my son). Son states he was fine with her not being at the party but tears were in his eyes (not streaming just a bit welled up) when he had told us she wasnt coming As a parent I was in tune to that. He denies it but both his Dad and I picked up on it. This is where things get messy. See the discussion above took place without me being involved. I was waiting to talk to the GF in person because we've tried other forms of communication and it never went well so I wasnt about to do this 3rd party or through a call or text. I had been told earlier in the year she's an extreme introvert and needed to handled with kid gloves. Hence why I was waiting to do this in person but I never got that chance because people decided to speak for me.

Aug - Son visits me at work we discuss some things for a few minutes. On his way out I ask if he's going to be coming for my birthday party at the end of Sept. His answer was it depended on if he was home (trucking) (preface here - I come from a trucking family so I get trucking) After he said it depended on if he was home - I followed up with a smile, a finger wag, and said "you better there!" Then giggled. He smiled, laughed, and turned out the door. A few weeks later I learn from him an hour after he left me he realized he didnt like that I said "you better be" (keep in mind this was said jokingly, im from a trucking family, and our family loves to rib one another) anyhoo, he's legitly decided he's upset about something we both laughed and smiled about and im now suppose to "validate" his feelings. I politely and calmly said I didnt understand why I needed to validate his feeling when it was left laughing and smiling. That if he was legitly upset he would have felt it immediately not an hour later. And right or wrong followed up with if he felt that way an hour later it sounded like a him problem not a me problem. i also said why did it take 2 weeks to talk to me about it? He hangs up on me after repeated attempts to get me to "validate" his feelings.

Early Sept - My birthday all I get is a Happy Birthday text from him nothing from the GF - He's still upset I havent validated his feelings - GF has well all but heard everybodies side but mine there for avoides me.

Late September - My birthday Party - Son arrives - im excited to see him since I wasnt sure if he was going to be there. He comes near me but stays 6ish feet away. I ask for a birthday hug and get denied. i ask why. His reaponse was I thought it would go without reason. Im now angry again.. I go outside to which my husband rallies my son up and beings him to me... He's still angry with me for not validating his feelings. I reiterated the whole scene once again he agreed he was smiling and laughing when he left but he had a right to change his mind.. To which I agreed had it been immediately and had it also not been annhour later. People know when something upsets them right away not an hour later. He then calls me a bully and I tell him I love him, to leave my party, that hes at this party for the wrong reasons, and to becareful on his bike.

1 week post my party - he calls - accuses me of being an emotional abuser & gaslighting then begins to rehash the validating feelings again for over 3 hrs. We're pretty civil and theres a couple of life things that interupt the call.. We return calls and on the last return call he says to me - if you're at your job and your boss asks you to change your attitude.. Do you do it? I said yes, because im on their dime - im interupted and he says then I feel disrespected and hangs up... Im now dumbfounded

2 weeks post that - i call him and say I think its time we talk this out again - I start off with a continued explanation of why I would change my attitude if my boss asked me too - then asked why he thought I was an emotional abuser? His response was because I wont validate his feelings... He gets angry tells me to stay the eff out of his life & to not contact him ever again & hangs up once again. Thats the last time I talked with my son. I was crushed, dumbfounded, and quite literally on the verge of a mental breakdown.

There are years of stories more so after he enlisted into the military that have always been about him and how he is the important one, he's always had the need to have things better then others, enitled to things, mostly unable to be empathetic and unable to place himself in anothers shoes, and had ways of coercing people into doing things his way. Again, most of this reared up after his enlistment and his enlistment wasnt just any enlistment but one of garnered egotistical M.O.S. However, we always passed it off as eh its the "new military him" and simply didnt think much about it. Til now when Ive been cast off and disgaurded.

So there it is the most condensed version of my last 1.5 years I could give you. There are many details that arent in here... But ive hit the "key" points ... I feel my son and his GF are feeding off each other due to being opposite suspected narcissists.

Anyhoo, thanks for reading this far and im looking forward to further discussions.


Hope everyone has an enjoyable day.

Hi Momma72
I wonder if you are expecting to resolve things with talking - and talking is providing lots of ammunition for GF to make son piggy-in-the-middle.

In these situations the only thing you have control over is what you do and how you think.  I can see that you have strong family traditions and GF not turning up is a big thing.

I would flip it: GF not turning up is an opportunity for your family to relax and enjoy your time together - all with appropriate expressions of sympathy that can be relayed to her; 'I hope she is feeling better soon; please pass on our best wishes etc'

I was surprised that your son was allowed to turn up - for so many of us, our loved one is totally excluded from being part of any family gathering - so that was a plus I thought.

Taking your completely innocent remark the wrong way shows that everything has to be relayed to GF and she will put an interpretation on it.

In my opinion/experience the more talk, the more opportunity for someone like GF to wedge.

I think shorten any response 'Oh sorry if you took it that way!'

The positive in what you write is that your son is coming to family gatherings. If you flip the way you think perhaps you can really make the most of this.

Just some thoughts . . .  .

Hey Sancho -

After first I had hopes of resolving things but I've come to terms that, that ship has all but sailed. Now I just want to understand why he calls be a bully, an emotional abuser, and accuses me of gaslighting? Our talks over the last couple of months have been about 1 thing and 1 thing only.. The need for me to "Validate his feelings" in his exact words over a circumstance that quite literally was said in a joking manor. His accusations have hurt me deeply; so much so, I literally began studying the definition of gaslighting and emotional abuser and also went to the extent while in a hysterical mental breakdown of asking my daughter if she felt that I was an emotional abuser. Her response was "No" which helped settle me, but still left me to question was I really the person he was painting me to be? Research led me to youtube video's of Dr'.s talking about emotional abuse and gaslighting.. at which I learned all of us have habits of doing both however, some are chronic while others have rarer tendencies; we're only human and aren't perfect in any way shape or form. The research also led me to video's and documents on narcissism (Overt & Covert) which opened my eyes and as I began seeing everything in print and hearing my near exact situation unfolding before my very eyes. It's what I've been experiencing for years especially with my son. Grandiosity, unable to except blame or unable to admit when he's wrong, the need for validation, rage tendencies when he doesn't get his way, his charisma to get people to do things they hesitate to do good, bad, & ugly. Anyhoo, it seems I've gone off on a bit of a tangent here.

Back to the topic at hand. Everything I have read about the covert narcissist  shows that they are the sneakiest of narcs (which is what I suspect the GF to be). They like to look good in every aspect from being "the good girl" to "how they look" in the beginning which is exactly who and how she was for the 1st 4 years of the relationship she attended all family functions without hesitation, changed my son appearance wise (which I'm not complaining about), always was dressed like she was going on a date, she was "perfect" for our son or so we thought at the time. Then over time things begin changing on a very sloow pace; occasionally not showing up for this or that, proclaims she's an introvert, has problems with depression, doesn't finish things for one reason or another, requires validation of her feelings and that we adhere to her family values but refuses to adhere to ours, & doesn't take criticism well; just to name a few. The grand scheme of a covert narc is to "always look good to the outside world" but really have a secret agenda to destroy it & that's where we are today; we are where the destruction has begun. So to address the "surprise that the GF is allowing my son to turn up" I'm not - it's the M.O. of a covert narc. She needs to look good yet and make it look like she isn't the blame for him not coming. In the meantime inflicting her beliefs onto my son. (Which  can be seen over the course of the last 3 months now that I'm acutely aware of of my suspicions and findings)

An example of how I've come to believe my son is an overt narcissist would be going back to my actual birthday - I expressed to him during our conversation over the phone post my birthday party "How hurt I was that he didn't even call me for my birthday" as tears streamed down my face. His response was " There you go again playing the victim." No apology no nothing & whenever I try to rebuttal I get shushed and I ALWAYS need to listen to him however, he never seems to listen to me. His opinion or feelings are always more important than mine.

My son nor his GF no longer attend family gatherings for the simple reason - I wont "Validate his and his GF's" feelings - That's not my job to validate them - it's my job to apologize for something they may have taken I said wrongly but for me to take blame for how they feel is well quite frankly on them. My apology went like this "I'm sorry you feel that way but your feelings are a you problem not a me problem." Considering the conversation he's needing validation for was done in a joking manor and things were left under that assumption. Yet, he seems to think I need to take the blame for how he felt sometime after he left the conversation laughing and smiling and say "I validate your feelings." Which is a sign his GF is beginning to impression on him. This is the same exact same things she feels I need to do with her. 

Sorry I know this was long winded again - I haven't really had a chance to unload to someone that understands what I may be dealing with. I've talked with my husband and while he says gets it.. I'm not certain he understands it since he isn't the one that's been "discarded" at this point.

I worry and want to protect both him and my other adult child from vial words and hurtful circumstances that could very well lead to them to being discarded. Right now they're both "useful toys" though the GF and my son have seemingly stopped visiting my other adult child & her Significant other whom has their only nephew. To my knowledge the GF has only seen the baby once in 8 months and my son twice in 8 months and they only live under an hour away. The GF hasn't spoken nor seen my husband since June of this year which is the last time I've seen her.

The holiday is upon us and I'm beginning to struggle hard. I would really like to have my son here since he hasn't missed a Thanksgiving in his 26 years but on the same hand I dont want to subject myself to more heartbreak and anguish when he doesn't come if I were to extend an invitation to him and his GF. My mental health has suffered immensely over the course of the past few years as I come to realize what I've pretty likely been up against for the last several years.

 How do I deal with holidays that have always been a large part of our family traditions? I try to tell myself "just pretend like he doesn't live in the same state & can't come home for every holiday!" but my common sense side of my brain says "You know that's a lie and he only lives a 1/2 hr away."

Ughhhh this holiday stuff has got all of my feels going and I'm not ok with it.  :help:

Thanks for listening er reading again.