BPDFamily.com

 :help:
I really need help.  My hwBPD and I have a serious lack of intimacy in our marriage.  For context, he has JUST started seeing a BPD therapist, attends a separate DBT group, and has seen a psychiatrist for medication.  We recently moved back into the same home, because he has taken these actions and has stuck with them for a few months now...  but...

My hwBPD has a really detrimental habit of shaming me.  Relentlessly.  It's been 4 years, and he has never stopped.  It's shaming, manipulating, blaming, berating, and coercion tactics that NEVER work when you want intimacy.  I mean, most people understand that if you're not getting something you want, you don't get to bully someone to give it to you.  However, that is the most common tactic that my hwBPD uses.  Over the years, we have had conversations about my life before him, and then, in an argument, he will use those things that I have told him in a vulnerable state, as weapons!  They are things that no one would be proud of.  They are embarrassing details about me.  And even worse, some are things that have been DONE TO ME by people who perpetrated crimes upon me. He uses those too.  He will detail how I "asked for it" etc...  It's truly horrifying to hear your own husband, the person who vowed to love and respect you forever, say those things to you.

Now, when we string a couple of good weeks together, he thinks that I should be approaching him for intimacy, and I simply am not yet feeling that way.  And every time he wants it, (AND does nothing in the way of letting me know)  he gets frustrated because "You're just not giving it up" (paraphrasing)

I would like to find a calm time to discuss a firm boundary around this, but I'm ALWAYS afraid to disrupt the so, so fragile peace that we have managed.  I refuse to be shamed and embarrassed and humiliated by my husband and then just roll over to his demands. 

I do not know what to do at this point.  Can anyone help?

Of course you don’t want to be intimate with someone who treats you poorly.  :hug:  Obviously he has a major disconnect there and is oblivious about empathizing with your feelings.

Perhaps he has gotten into a habit where coercion works in other contexts in his life.

He needs to understand that not only does he need to make amends for the cruel way he’s treated you in the past, but that he’s not attractive to you simply due to the way he is treating you in the present.

You may have to make some waves to enforce a boundary of “I’m not going to be sexual with you if I’m not comfortable with you.”

What a caring partner would ask, “What can I do to make things better?”

He will not be understanding or making amends.  Just this morning he told me that his therapist agrees with him and thinks that "these questions are valid and need to be answered".  I'm just at a loss.  ALL these questions have been asked and answered HUNDREDS of times.  I get so angry when he gets this kind of advice.  Don't these "professionals" know the difference between validating their client and giving them permission to abuse?  I cannot believe that his therapist would tell him to go home, and corner your wife, and MAKE SURE SHE ANSWERS YOU THE WAY YOU WANT HER TO this time.

Concerned2020,

I am so sorry that you are being treated this way by your DH. In a healthy relationship such things should never happen. It's no wonder that you have no desire to be intimate with him. You have wounded, vulnerable places that need healing, not continual reminders and re-opening of those wounds.

Are you seeing a T for yourself? T has been super helpful for me, in teaching me how to have a voice to say no and to set healthy boundaries. BPDs are not always very good at remembering when you have answered before, and it can be a trap that you fall into if you keep trying to explain. I had to stop attempting to get my spouse to hear me, no matter how many times I would go into greater and greater detail. It's not about the reasons why you're saying no. It's that they aren't getting what they want.

 :hug:
Wools

 

 Sorry you are going through this.

 I can relate from my experience with my BPD gf.

 I highly doubt the therapist is applauding his behavior in anyway. Either he lied to the therapist to get that answer or the therapist never said it. BPs are known to use therapists as sounding boards instead of getting help.

  Keep in mind you are dealing with a mentally ill person. You can’t rely on him for self image or moral compass. Work on detaching yourself emotionally from these attacks. They are just the pain and shame he feels about himself. It’s not about you no matter how he shapes it to be. It is always about him.

I agree with NotAHero. I cannot imagine a mental health professional saying such a thing.

Whether he outright lied to his therapist or not, or lied to you about what his therapist said, people with personality disorders interpret reality very differently than emotionally healthy people.

The first time that this occurred to me was as an adult, when my BPD mother adamantly recounted an event that we both recently had experienced. Her version had nothing to do with the reality of what actually happened.

I was dumbfounded. I don’t think she was intentionally lying, but she certainly was not a reliable witness.

It sort of explained some of the craziness that went on in my childhood.

I think people with BPD filter information to fit their own narrative. I don’t doubt that he discussed talking to you with his therapist. What I doubt is that he represented his account of your interactions in a way that reflects reality.

I am so glad i am not the only one who has same feeling/dilemma. My ubpd complains we are not physically connected, how can i connect physically with someone who constantly puts me down ( i am a looser, retard, cunt and etc). We might have 2-3 weeks without having a huge outburst but i am just recovering from all the verbal abuse and soon as i feel like i can move forward and connect its another round of getting screamed at, blamed and verbal insults. The cycle never ends but its all my fault for lack of intimacy.

Hi,
I have the same problem with my uBPD wife.
Because of what she does when she has an episode, I find it hard to approach her because I am afraid of what will happen (walking on eggshells).

Dont know how to overcome that.

Everyone here that replied... THANK YOU.  It only got worse over the weekend, and it was absolutely terrible.  I do see my own therapist, but I have been getting the feeling lately that she is tiring of all of this.  I know that I certainly am.

But, I have gone to her every week or every other week for almost a year and a half.  I have directly asked her to help me set boundaries, as they don't come naturally to me with someone I'm very close to.  She seems to kind of 'talk around it'.  I have been asking her this specifically for months now, and we always seem to not 'get to it'.  My last session, 2 weeks ago, she was much less than helpful.  I am thinking of hiring a new T.  I need help specifically with boundaries, maybe some DBT skills, maybe specific help in dealing with BPD.  He absolutely brought the very, very worst out in me this weekend and I am so ashamed of how I reacted to him.  I feel terrible, awful, horrible about it. 
I think it might be time for me to find a new T.  And also, I know- in the moment- what is happening, it's his shame, it's his revulsion, but the things he says are SO vile. So personal.  So terrible, because they are ALL things that I have told him in more soft, kind times.  My vulnerabilities.  Things that only HE knows.  And then he'll turn around and use things that have hurt me from my past and literally tell me that I deserved it.  or worse, I asked for it.  I never imagined someone who is supposed to love me could be so very cruel. 

Not everyone, even therapists, is fluent in assertive skills and boundaries. You might try seeing someone else to find a possible better fit.

Many of us who have found ourselves in these types of relationships are people pleasers, a mode perhaps learned at early age in our families of origin. We ignore the initial problematic behaviors, only to allow them to metastasize into truly unpleasant experiences.

I’m not implying that we can keep our loved ones with BPD within guardrails, but for many of us, we have chosen to stay with someone whose behavior other people would soon find unacceptable.

I was rather timid about expressing my needs, communicating disapproval, and removing myself from harmful situations. That led to tolerating very abusive behavior in my first marriage. Now I’m much less tolerant.  lol   *)

hello Concerned2020,

as I read your posts I can clearly see how difficult and painful this is for you.  I am sorry you have all this going on.   I understand its terribly difficult in many ways.

it seems to me you have more than one thing going on here.   in fact, it seems that you have many difficult things happening at once.   I was hoping we could start to pull these apart into separate issues and that would make them easier to deal with.


I agree this is a problem.   and a serious one too.   still, it seems to me that returning to intimacy is a goal that should be further down the road, after other larger issues have returned to normalcy.   what do you think?



am I understand this correctly?   you and your husband had separated?  and were living apart?  can you say a little more about this? 



I am going to suggest we call this what it really is.    It may certainly feel shaming to you but in my opinion, this is verbal and emotional abuse.   

when I first got here, I had no idea what verbal and emotional abuse was.   and the idea that I might be a victim of it seemed like it was from outer space.   as I learned more, I came to the conclusion that yes, I was being abused.  never thought it would happen to me.


that quote is from our friends 'verywellmind'.   I think the important part of it is that people abuse because it's a way to control and maintain power over another.   my experience in my BPD relationship was that much of it was a contest, a struggle for supremacy.  who was the better person?   who got more of the emotional resources available in the relationship?   who was right?   who was more deserving?    who was blameless?   

the verbal/emotional abuse was a manipulation tactic.  to keep all the power and control in the hands of my partner.   and to keep all the relationship resources and assets tilted in the direction of my partner because she always felt like she needed more.

make sense?

So I would say the problem here isn't there is a lack of intimacy in your relationship.    the problem here is you are being abused.    my two cents.


I hope you recognize the commitment you have made and how well you have followed through on it.   good job.


Interesting.   Let's talk about boundaries.    A boundary means different things to different people.

To me; "if you call me a jerk again, I will leave you forever" isn't a boundary, it's a threat.

To me; "I want you to stop calling me a jerk."   isn't a boundary.   it could be a request.

To me; "When I am called a jerk, I know the conversation is no longer productive and I will go off and do other things."   that's a boundary because I am controlling and protecting only myself.    I am not controlling the other person; they can continue to call me a jerk all day long if they want.   I won't be there to hear it.

what a boundary look like for you? 


I don't think it matters if it's his shame or revulsion.    its abuse.    and there is no reason to participate in abuse.    I am not suggesting you say to him "this is abusive".   likely that wouldn't be helpful because it would continue the subtle argument of who is the better person him or you.  he's abusing you verbally so he can feel better about himself.    what I would suggest is that you find a way to safely and calmly leave these arguments before they escalate to where you lose control of your own emotions.

I'll stop here and wait for your reply.

'ducks

I am following this because I could have written this same post.

I feel badgered and exhausted.  OP, I am sorry we share a similar experience -- but it is (sadly) nice not to feel so alone in it.

I just wanted to say thanks, babyducks, for this. I have fallen into this trap of relationship as contest. I feel sullied for having been part of this. By naming it, I hope to avoid it going forward.

Thanks Babyducks.  I haven't figured out the quoting thing here, but regarding abuse, yes, I am aware that it is exactly that.  It FEELS abusive.  It FEELS awful.

As far as boundaries go, I just finished the book "Boundaries in Marriage" and I bought the workbook.  Hopefully that will be more helpful than my T.

I do understand that the boundary is to help me.  Not to control him.  It's about what I need to do to protect myself from the abuse. 

And yes, we were separated for about a year and a half due to this and other issues in the past.  It was the fact that he had found a therapist, a DBT Group, and has committed (and followed through) for a few months now that have brought us back together in our marital home. 

hello PromptDormRater

Sadly this is a fairly common experience.   I've read many a post where the Original Poster details how the pwBPD fixates on a part or an aspect of our past and continually uses it to belittle and disparage who and what we are.

Would you like to share more about how you are dealing with this?

Hello Concerned2020


there are two ways to do it.    Instead of hitting reply in the thread you are working on, you can use the Excerpt button that is in the upper right corner of each response.    Or if you already started your reply you can scroll down to the topic summary, find the post you are looking for and hit quotebox also in the upper right of the individual response.   then it's a matter of cutting, pasting and deleting what part of the quote you want to work with inside the new text box .    you can preview how it's going to look before you post.   


what boundary do you think you would like to set?    how would you articulate it?   this would be a good place to sound it out.   sometimes the simple act of writing our thoughts out helps us organize them.   

what would be a simple boundary you could set and be able to enforce?

'ducks

what boundary do you think you would like to set?    how would you articulate it?   this would be a good place to sound it out.   sometimes the simple act of writing our thoughts out helps us organize them.    

what would be a simple boundary you could set and be able to enforce?

In an ideal world, it would sound something like this...

I feel humiliated when you judge my past, and I don't want to be a part of that commentary.  If you won't speak to me respectfully, I will need to disengage in the conversation.

the excerpt thing didn't work.  hopefully you can still see who was Babyducks and who was me

I think that is an excellent boundary.    a wonderful place to start.

now to part two of the equation.   *)    how do you think he is going to react when you say this?     I need to ask,  is it possible that the situation might escalate to violence?    your safety is most important.   

typically, what happens is that the pwBPD doesn't respond well to the boundary.   pwBPD are getting something out being able to dump all their negativity on those closest to them.   its like an escape valve for them and when that escape valve closes, they tend to double down.   or have what is called an extinction burst.      trying harder to get the same result by using the same maladaptive coping tool more intensely.

what does "disengage" look like for you?    how are you planning on disengaging?   walking out of the room?    going to the store?     let's say he comes back with 'you should be humiliated, you're nothing but a blank blank blank'.   it might be a good idea to script out how you think this might play out so that you don't have try and troubleshoot it in the heat of the moment.

my suggestion to 'you should be humilated' is 'loving spouses don't speak this way' and exit.  walk away.    leave the room.    if the emotional temperature is very high, leave the house.   'I'm going to go get milk, I'll be back in 30 minutes'.

whatever you decide to do or say, two things are important.   you maintain as much of a cool and collected composure as you can.    and you that you consistently enforce the boundary.   every time your past is mentioned - you enforce your boundary.    'I'm not talking about this part of my past with you any more."   "like I said, I won't be part of you judging my past."

what do you think?

'ducks

As far as how I think he will react, I really do not know.  He is aware that I was reading a book about boundaries.  He is aware that I get very upset when he does this, and usually we end up in a fight because I defend myself and argue right back.  It is like a touchpoint with me, and it's been brought up and fought about so many times, that it's like touching a barely healed burn scar for me.  It's a definite trigger.   

I think the key will be staying calm, as that is not my usual behavior.  He knows exactly what buttons to push.  But staying calm, looking him dead in the face and telling him that I do not want to be a part of these activities anymore.  I will not continue this conversation until we can take down the temperature.  And as for enforcement, I will leave the room.  If he follows, I can leave the house.  I really cannot allow this to continue.  I truly feel like if I hear this issue one more time, I will lose my mind.  And I'm not interested in losing my mind either.

It's also my understanding that boundaries need to be discussed ahead of time, when everything is calm... I do hate this idea... I hate to disturb the oh-so-fragile quiet peaceful times.  Any advice in this department?

You don’t have to discuss your boundary at all. You can merely say I’m not participating in discussions where my past is brought up. Period.

When he’s trying to trigger you, you might think about *fighting back* strategically—I mean by purposefully not reacting to your *button*.

I understand having those kinds of scars and how abusive it is to push on them. I like the idea of not giving his attempts to fluster you any energy. For me it’s having the white cold anger of being aloof and unbothered. It is a way of taking back power and remaining centered. The red hot anger trips me up every time.

I agree with Cat Familiar.     You don't have to discuss this boundary with him at all.

I actually think it's better to NOT discuss this with him.  What I am thinking is that any way you can find to take the energy, intensity, emotion OUT of this is better for both of you.

Right now, any discussion about your past has a huge amount of vehemence and harshness in it.   You want to slowly deflate this.    Like letting air out of balloon.     What tends to happen in these circular arguments... and you are in a circular argument make no mistake about that...is our partners get upset, we get upset, and like pouring gasoline on a fire our partners get more upset and dysregulate, which in turns makes us more upset... and round and round it goes.  nothing is ever resolved and after a while you can't even tell what the argument is about.   

the more low key you can stay, the better the chance he will.   people who have trouble regulating their emotions can sometimes generate an argument so that they have reason for their chaotic emotions.

the more you can aim for "meeehhhh, we've discussed this, I am bored with it, I am going to do the laundry".   the lower the energy level will be.   make sense?

and speaking of laundry,  think about how you will disengage,  where will you go, what will you do.     if you walk away try not to trap yourself in a small room without an easy exit.   don't, for example, lock yourself in the bedroom.    think about where you will go, and what you will do once you get there.   I used to make a cup of tea and go sit on the balcony, which probably won't work in this weather.   maybe this would be a good time to look for that box of stuff in the garage?    maybe time to start baking some cookies?    maybe time to take the trash out?    when a fight started between my Ex and I,  I would often excuse myself to go to the bathroom so I could take 5 minutes to think of what I wanted to do.

actions speak louder than words.   if you hold this boundary, you don't have to discuss it with him at all.    don't JADE.   don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain.   time how long the conversation has gone on.    if you have been discussing this for more than 10 minutes that's too long in my opinion.   

how does that all sound to you?
'ducks

Ducks, not giving the argument energy would be the ideal outcome for me.  Taking the air out of the argument would be so wonderful. 

I have no idea how he would react to "I'm not participating in any discussion where my past is the topic".  He likes to tie my past to the present.  He likes to make it relevant to current day issues.  I'll give you an example- and this is an actual thing he says:

"You won't have sex with me but you'll go drop your bags in the room of a known rapist" (YEARS ago, on a family trip with our children, before I ever met my current husband, my ex husband used to violate me after I would fall asleep).  "If that doesn't tell me that I'm not a worthy partner, I don't know what does!"

And even though it's the truth, I don't need any reminding, ya know?  Before I met my current husband, I did decide to go with my kids and ex on a trip to a beautiful suite and I did stay in the same room with my ex, and he did take advantage of me after I had drank too much alcohol.  He did that during our entire marriage.  *big part of the reason that I quit drinking*.  However, when my husband makes that rape by my ex husband a CHOICE THAT I MADE, like it was my fault, I can't listen to that anymore.  I'm hoping you can see that as a victim of someone else's crime, being made responsible for that crime would be triggering.

I think this is going to take practice.  I think it's going to take a LOT of self control.  I think it's going to have to be repetitive.  I will not give it air.  I will not give it air.  It's not right that he says these things... 

I really wish that his therapist would see and understand the things that he says and stop enabling him.  I think he goes in to see his therapist and tells her the sanitized version of these things and her response to him (he says) is that, "Yeah... something is missing.  She isn't telling you everything".  She, according to him, told him that when they get to the "Radical Acceptance" part of DBT, he's going to have a really hard time with it if he doesn't have the 'whole story'.  I am always and continually dumbstruck.

She clearly doesn't know that when I had to leave him 2 summers ago after a physically violent altercation, that I went to a DV shelter because I didn't have any money, or a place to go...   I reached out to this same ex husband for financial support to help me get an apartment.  He's the only "family" I have left aside from my (barely) adult children.  I needed emergency help and I also got emotional support via telephone conversations with the ex.  Those conversations were always about how I intended to move on, move forward, and pick up my life. I realize that I probably shouldn't have called HIM (the one person my current husband CAN'T STAND)  but when you're in a DV shelter and desperate for help, I can see how some people might call the devil himself. 

So, when my husband tells me that he cannot understand, and his therapist can't understand, how I would call my ex husband for help, I'm just at a loss.  THEY call it an emotional affair... and they can't understand why I wholeheartedly disagree.   My own therapist, who was my therapist throughout all of this, says that is NOT an emotional affair.  My husband could not disagree more vehemently.   

I was hoping to make this more of a succint reply about the boundary.  Hopefully I have shed some light on why he says the things he says.  He feels like my ex husband is my go-to person, and that I have had an emotional affair with my rapist inside this marriage.  I do not know how to deal with that.

Can you speak to his therapist? You could say that you have no intention about asking anything that could be confidential about what he has said.

However…you’d like to share your side of the *story* that your husband has inquired about.

I’d do that in a heartbeat. I called my husband’s therapist and told him that though my husband presents well to outsiders, I suspected BPD due to a list of behaviors that I enumerated. He thanked me for the information.

I second guessed myself and asked my own therapist how she’d respond if a spouse called her and gave her information about one of her clients. She too said that she’d be grateful.

It wasn’t the first time that I had done this. I called my former boyfriend’s daughter’s therapist to tell her about disconcerting behaviors I’d personally observed, that I thought might be covered up by the family, and she too thanked me.

I could email.  I have done that before because my husband told me that he'd like for me to meet with her.  Unfortunately, he didn't tell HER that I would be emailing her.  The email stated very simply that I would like to meet with her and discuss some of the things that have been going on, and that my husband had asked me to.  I did not get a response, and my husband had "forgotten" that he told me that by the time she let him know I had emailed, and they both looked at it as an infringement on my part.

If I emailed her again, I believe it would be construed as a manipulative attempt on my part to influence his therapy, and I want no part of that.  Unless I told my husband of what I was wanting to do, and he told her in advance.  And right now, that is not a conversation that I'm wanting to have with him. 

Honestly it would trigger the living  :cursing: outta me.

I get why this is hard as  :cursing: to deal with.    If you need to vent come here and vent to us.

The plain practical truth is your husband is getting something out of your reaction.    He gets to feel superior.    He gets to be the victim in this story (while he clearly isn't).  He gets to make unreasonable demands.   

Taking the air/oxygen out of this will help put out the fire.

You have every reason to feel hurt and angry.  Still I would encourage you to share it with only safe people.

OK, so you don’t feel you can contact his therapist directly. What about your therapist speaking to his therapist?

They (allegedly) are talking about you in his therapy sessions. That he doesn’t have the *whole story* needed for radical acceptance. That she doesn’t know about his violent behavior that led to you fleeing to a DV shelter.

She is advising him based upon incomplete and incorrect information that he’s provided. Certainly your therapist could share pieces of your account that will set the record straight and help her advise him more accurately.

I wouldn’t let this continue. His therapist is doing a disservice to the relationship and could be putting you at risk. Speak up. No one else is going to have your back.

I’d be writing her a letter if none of the other possible strategies are an option. People tend to read letters. You can state clearly that you believe she needs to hear some facts that she may not be aware of and you have no intention  to interfere in his therapy.

Thanks ducks...

Did it make sense when I told you what he says?  about how he ties the past up in the present?  

I know it's hard to understand why I voluntarily went on a vacation with my ex husband... but our kids were going, and I loved the resort we were going to.  I can understand why my current husband has trouble understanding why I would put myself in that position.

Where we keep running into trouble is when he ties THAT above, (which took place before I met my current husband) to me calling the ex husband when I was absolutely desperate for help and in a DV shelter.  Its like he minimizes his part in that situation.  He has no responsibility in that situation because "I overreacted" to his physical violence.  

And that's what tells me that his therapist isn't getting the whole story.  As a female therapist, I would certainly think that she would understand that if a man's violence puts a woman in a domestic violence shelter, it wouldn't matter if she had called the devil himself for help.  You don't get to judge a woman for WHO she calls for help.  And you most certainly don't agree with the abuser that she had an emotional affair when she called for help.  

Can you tell me if I'm reading this wrong? or if I'm missing something?  I think it bothers me more that his therapist seems to be enabling him than it does that he behaves this way... because with his therapist "agreeing" with him.. that emboldens him and his abusive conduct.

Cat.  THAT is a really good idea.  I see my therapist next wednesday, and I will talk to her about it. 

In the meantime... I am not going to give it any oxygen.  I will set the boundary if he starts talking about it again.  He meets with his therapist tomorrow so it will likely come back up.  I'm not going to give it air.  I'm not going to give it air.

I can go to our lower level and watch tv or work on my computer.  if he follows me down there, I can go to the store, or my son's house, or meet a girlfriend for coffee...

Concerned2020, am I tracking correctly that all the info you are getting about "what his therapist is telling him..." is coming from HIM?


I suspect he isn't telling you the truth about what she's telling him.

Lots of moving parts here. Finding a way out of the muddled gray area, where any "info" you have about his T sessions BOTH comes only from him AND impacts you, seems like the way to go. It could look a lot of different ways, as Cat Familiar and babyducks have suggested, and the important thing is that the way forward from this "she told me X" mess works for YOU.

You emailing/calling his T sounds less workable for you, which is fair.

You writing a letter, or perhaps your T writing his T a letter -- still on the table?

You troubleshooting this with your T sounds strong. Your T will have all the professional ethics info to help you know if there is an ethics issue at play.

Glad you're with us working on this.

kells76

Thanks Kels.  I think that me asking my T to help me figure out what to say to his T would be the most tenable, AND having my T discuss/write/communicate with his T would be the best idea. 

I do NOT want to be manipulative.  And I certainly don't want to SEEM manipulative.  I have had very high hopes that he entered a DBT weekly group and is seeing a therapist and a psychiatrist every week.  He's taking this seriously.  He's taking his meds.  Anything that would even feel remotely like manipulation to him would likely sabotage the whole thing.  I am super supportive of all of this, even when he relays the things "she says" to him about me.  I try not to react to what "SHE" says... because as I have suggested, it's hard to believe that she actually said these things. 

I have enough experience with my therapist to know that- with my stated goals in mind, she can say difficult things that she knows I don't want/like to hear, but not ONE of them would be disparaging about my husband.  She will tell me that he has a mental illness, she will tell me that DBT will take time- likely years to see lasting change.  She will tell the truth, without making him seem like a terrible person.  And I appreciate that about her.  So, it's really difficult for me to believe that his therapist is telling him that it's okay to be physically violent, not be accountable for your actions and blame her for having an emotional affair when she calls someone for financial help from the DV shelter.   It's too different from my own experience to ring true...  which is also true for many of my experiences in this relationship.

Yes it makes sense.  you explain it well.

about a year and a half ago we had a member here who was experiencing a similar thing.   Her husband was fixated on a previous romantic interest.   someone she had known years ago.    every day there was a horribly complicated argument full of tiny intricate details.    she would try to explain to him.   she would try to make him see the logic of what she was saying.   she would justify her behavior.    she would grow frustrated and yell.    and it went on and on.

underneath all those tiny intricate details was the same argument.   camouflaged by the intensity and the minutiae was "I think you love someone else more than you love me.    I have to fight against that feeling."

People who are organized at the borderline level do not process the events and information of life the same way you and I do.   often they tend to view today's events through the filter of their past fears and hurts.  

when you have a moment take a look at this link:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0)

from what you are saying, why you went on this vacation and why you made the phone call from the DV shelter has been discussed a million times.   every question has been asked and answered a thousand times.   still every time your husband feels insecure or abandoned or unloved he returns to these events as 'the evidence' that you don't really care for him.    trying to convince him otherwise has not worked.   time to stop the circular argument.   in my opinion it's time to walk away from the topic.

it is concerning that there has been previous violence in your relationship.  experience has shown that once that line has been breached, it's easier for it to happen again.  do you have a saftey plan?  a to do list of what actions to take should an altercation break out?  do you have a go bag hidden in your car or a friends house?   a go bag usually has a change of clothes,  lists of phone numbers and credit cards,   extra charging cords, that sort of thing.

I find myself in agreemet with Cat again.


whatever is going on within his therapy is putting you and the relationship at risk.   you do not want this to escalate to one of you losing control during moments of heightened emotional intensity.

'ducks

I just read that thread linked above.  I could not agree more that JADEing is totally useless.  Circular arguing is useless.  When he gets validation from his therapist that tells him that he's "not getting all the information" from me (about things that have been discussed and argued about a hundred times)... And then he feels emboldened to keep cornering me and trying to push buttons, I really need to just STOP. BREATHE. THINK.  STEP AWAY.  He is at his therapist office right now, so I am preparing myself mentally, emotionally to handle whatever comes my way when he gets home.

I have got to stop the arguing.  Stop giving it air. In the very least, I need to stop INVALIDATING him, and find a way to validate him when I return.

I always have a "go bag".  I always know when it's too dangerous to stay. 

It is my goal to make these things happen less and less and less, as much as they are within my own control.  I can control me and I am 50% of the arguing. 

Guys, I really appreciate you allowing me to vent, I appreciate you allowing me to get this out to another human being so that I know I am not crazy!

It’s easy to lose one’s frame of reference as to what is normal vs. what is crazy when in a relationship with a pwBPD, especially one who adamantly proclaims their ideas are correct and justified.

We are here to share a consensus reality from the trenches that you have every right to not participate in the craziness.

He met with his therapist yesterday, I was working when he got home (I work from home) and when I went upstairs after work, everything seemed fine.  I didn't ask any questions, he didn't offer any insights... we watched a little TV and went to bed.  Everything was normal.  I was so relieved.

I hope you guys don't mind, but I'm going to keep updating in this thread.  I went back to all of my posts in various places here that I have made over the last nearly 2 years, and I'm talking about the same thing... getting the same advice.  So I'm just going to centralize it here... I'm going to be working at my computer all day today, and I will dive into some of the articles that talk about communication strategies, dbt, validating etc... I can use all the communication help that I can get.

I got a call from my 22 year old son last night... he had some general things to talk to me about, but I also found out that he is coming to my town this weekend, and I'm so excited to see him!  He would never come to my house (he and my hwbpd HATE each other) but I might get to see him when he's in town and that makes me soo happy!

I think its a great idea to keep posting on this thread.   

The more you post the more others learn your story and about you.  That helps tailor responses to be more specific to you.

The more you post the more it creates virtual relationships of trust and confidence.

And it's just plain old flat easier to post when things aren't in a crisis.   

Thanks for the responses guys, I think I will keep it here

So let me ask the group a question.  He had group on Tuesday, and he had individual therapy yesterday.   He didn't say a word about either until this morning...  One thing about my husband is that it can feel like he's talking in riddles when he's trying to "tread lightly" around a topic.  So, let me run this by you guys... here is what he said...

"I just want to approach you about something, without getting too heavy right before you have to go to work"...  "In my group this week, we went over something called D.I.M.E... And then I went back over the group subject with my therapist, and she said that it sounds to her like you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. And I know that you have said that to me before, but hearing her echo the same things you have said has made me realize that it's true.  And I'm sorry that I have put you in a position where you're damned if you do and damned if you don't".    (I nearly fell out of my chair... I told you guys that it feels like she really has become his enabler, this is literally the first thing I've ever heard him say that is true about me)

(the you is ME).  His therapist told him that she can see how some things that we argue about in our relationship sound like a trap that he lays, and I'd be damned if I do, or damned if I don't.

You might be able to see why I said that he speaks in "riddles" sometimes.  I was given no further information about it.  I do not ask questions.  If I ask for any clarity, usually what happens is that we can go down a rabbithole that I definitely regret my question.

Best thing I can do is wait for more clarity... but is anyone here familiar with the DIME decision making process?  I googled it, and I see (sort of) what he's talking about... but I wondered if anyone has real-world experience with it?

sounds as if he was trying to be thoughtful here.   is that how you read it?


the DIME game is a dbt tool that helps to decide how strongly to ask for something.    right?  it's supposed to help decide about levels of intensity from low - flexible and accepting to high - firm and consistent.

this is from the web.



 this sounds like a good exchange to me.    did it lower the tension between you two at all?


in the link from above one of the first things it says is: " our partners are mentally ill and have difficulty expressing themselves in clear enough fashion for us to understand."    I remember reading that for the first time and really being impacted by it.   My Ex often expressed herself as if I 1) knew exactly what she meant and 2) felt exactly the same way.     She often said things as if I was in the room with her and knew what happened when I wasn't there at all.   upstream I said pwBPD process the information and events of life much differently than you and I do.    this was true for my Ex.   something would happen and she seemed to assume that I saw it the same way as she did, or experienced it with her, and knew exactly how she felt about it.   which wasn't true of course.


my Ex did DBT and loved it.   but never would discuss it with me.    I never figured out why.    I felt better not intruding on what was her private business.   but doing that left me open to the accusation of 'you don't care'.   

how are things going now?

Hello Ducks. 

Yes, the interaction with his DBT group and with his therapist seemed very positive this week.  I can see some subtle changes that he's making...

For example, we were going to try to make a super difficult cake together this weekend that we have been buying, and decided to try the recipe ourselves.  We had to run to the grocery store for the items we needed.  He was in charge of certain parts of the task and I was in charge of the others.  When we were shopping for the items for my part of the cake, he argued with me about the necessary ingredients.  Since I had done quite a bit of research on the recipe, I put up a bit of an argument.  I told him that, since I wasn't 100% sure, if he was 100% sure, we could get the ingredients to do it his way (I knew that this would have been a total disaster).  He got a little irritated about it, and decided to walk away.

I stayed in the baking aisle waiting for him to come back, and when he did, he seemed a lot more calm.   (turned out that he had asked a baker how you make this particular ingredient, and my way sounded right to the baker).  We bought the ingredients and made a successful holiday cake  :)

It seems to me like he always needs someone "else" to agree with me, he does not ever take my word for anything.  Before I met him, that would have been a huge problem to me. I was sure enough of my ingredients and my part of the cake after spending time on it looking up in various recipes, that I knew that if not perfect, I was on the right track...

I don't understand why he can't take my word for things.  He needs verification.  He needs verification from the baker, or his therapist... or sometimes he will go to friends and family.  Always needs someone to verify...

Any thoughts?

I feel like I should start a new thread about this, but I agreed to keep everything in one thread.  As you guys know my husband truly hates my ex husband.  I think I've explained everything about that above.

Here's a huge wrinkle in this relationship.  My son lives in SD, about 30 minutes from my ex husband.  I live about 2 hours away in a different state.  My son has my grandson, who is 18 months old.  Due to custody issues with grandson's mom and my son, I didn't get to see him regularly until he was a year old.  Now, I go visit about every other weekend for the day and I have built a great relationship with my grandbaby.  He loves when I walk in the door and he cries when I have to leave :(

However, any time that I go, my husband gets very anxious.  I have not had any contact with my ex husband in over a year.  My husband is convinced that if my ex showed up that he and I would end up together cheating on him *UGH*.  So, I have made it a point that when I visit, it's just me, my son, my grandson and son's girlfriend.  Everyone is on the same page.  In order to visit my grandson, that is what I had to agree to.

Surrounding the times when I get ready to leave to visit, husband starts getting really anxious.  This morning, he asked me if I was going to visit this weekend on Sunday.  I said that I hoped to, I would need to talk to the kids and see if it works for them.  He asked me if I wanted to spend the night and "make it feel like Christmas Eve".  I said No, my son doesn't have my Grandson Saturday night this week, so, I would just go on Sunday.  (we previously had agreed that I wouldn't spend the night until husband was more comfortable). And that was all we talked about this morning.  But husband brought it up.  That tells me that he's feeling anxious about this.

Do you have any ideas for me to try to help him not feel so anxious about this?  I need to feel like I had a Christmas with my Grandbaby, I didn't get one last year.  And I want to spent "Christmas" with my kids.

a couple.   first, how did the cake turn out and can I get a piece?   *)

and then let's talk about self-esteem.    if you had to guess, how would you say self-esteem is formed?    and what's its role in human interactions?

his need to verify.    is that saying something about you?    or is it saying something about him?   

most people who are on the BPD spectrum struggle with being wrong.   making mistakes.    being misunderstood.    for pwBPD making a mistake means they are a mistake.   it hits the self-esteem harder.    I am sure you have had the experience of being mistaken about something and having a hard time owning up to it.    I just did the other day at work.    I was having a discussion with someone and had totally misremembered an event that happened about a month ago.   they were right and i was wrong.    nearly killed me to say so though.   :)

I believe that people who process information through the filter of BPD struggle much the same way.    they have black and white thinking.     if Concerned2020 is right, then I must be wrong and being wrong is not an acceptable feeling for me.    if I go and check I can spread out the stress of being wrong and not feel it so acutely.     I think I said this upstream, but much of being in a relationship with a pwBPD is a contest.   a struggle.   of who is the better person,   who is right,   who is smarter, who deserves more, who is the 'good' person.     when I was in my relationship, I used to call it a 'needs entitlement war'.

back later
'ducks

I think I did the quote thing this time!  we'll see...

First, the cake turned out awesome!  It was quite intricate (for me) and it turned out great!  A couple things I'll tweak next time... but overall, it was really good.  Sorry Ducks, I don't have any left to share :)

Second, if I hear you correctly, I think his self esteem is about him.  I think his need to "verify" is about him.  And if I'm being fair, he does this with almost everyone else in his life too.  He truly, truly respects some people in his life that he holds in very high esteem, but they are the only people I have ever seen him defer to.

This is an eye opening thread for me. I had previously assumed that the tendency to need verification sprang from arrogance. And that would push my buttons—like “You question this because I said it?” Now I can note that this questioning of my validity/judgment/understanding of an issue/decision/theory might come from his own lack of self confidence.

Once my Ex was in the market for a new car.   She asked me what I suggested.   And I thought about it for a minute and said a Subaru Impreza. 

 A couple of days later we were at a red light and in front of us is a Subaru Impreza.    Bang.    She’s turns to me and says “that’s the car you thought I would like?”  heavily implying that I am the stupidest thing that ever walked the earth.   Blood in her eye and hair on fire.   

I said, No, that’s an Impreza sedan,  I was thinking of an Impreza sport or hatchback.   You could hear the wheels turning. 

 She’s more than  half way down the rabbit hole of “You Don’t Know Me At All If You Think I Would Drive That.”      This car doesn't ~fit~ her self image.


and NOW, I am saying something different than what she is thinking.  hatchback.   sedan.   what?

So now we’ve got a bunch of stuff going on.   

Driving a sedan would make her look ~stupid~.   Or like an old lady.   A self esteem issue.   

Clearly I don't know her at all.   Clearly I don't see her for the kind of person she really is.   a poorly defined sense of self issue.

How does she get herself back up out of that rabbit hole?    an emotional regulation issue.

And then once she climbs out of the rabbit hole she has to process the fact that there are two different models of Impreza, something she clearly didn’t know.   but that’s executive function and doesn’t work well. 

AND she has to admit she didn’t know that.   she has to say ‘oh I didn’t know there are different models’.   which she can’t do because she would be admitting she wasn't perfect..   Back to self esteem.  back to self image.  back to mature communication skills.

 And then we’ve got the whole issue of maybe you do know what I like and don’t like because you had a hatchback in mind.   but then I would have to grapple with the idea that you do care for me and pay attention to me and that doesn't feel comfortable either.

You know what she did do?   Went and asked a mutual friend if he thought she would like a Subura Impreza and he said … gasp …. Horror….   Yeah you might.   They are a pretty decent little car.

for me and our friend we were thinking about costs and size and maintenance and trade in prices, and that wasn't the conversation at all for her.

her world view ... or the way she processes life is usually wrapped around how she views herself or how other people view her.   

it wasn't about the car.    it was about how the car helped her identify herself.

btw, she didn't buy the Impreza.    because we were clearly 'wrong' about that, and she knew better and was 'right'.

'ducks

I had to laugh about the car story. Indeed, the lack of self esteem and the need to express oneself to the world through choice of car is something that I’ve noted as well. My husband recently sold a Mercedes SL550 and bought a new Porsche 911. 

We live on a gravel road.  :)  I drive a truck so I can haul a horse trailer when needed.

I still have not set foot in the Porsche, even though he’s had it for a few months. I don’t like being terrified by someone driving fast on rural roads where a deer or bear might suddenly share the roadway.

Also that way he can be seen alone in his car.   lol

What strikes me funny is that the Mercedes, though a few years old, had virtually no issues—other than getting flat tires on our road. Those tires with very little tread are no match for rocks and debris.

The Porsche has developed a habit of flashing all its lights in the garage. Not anything to do with an alarm system, and it wears down the battery if unnoticed. He’s already taken it back to the dealership for a problem with the airbag system alert saying it’s nonfunctional.

YES!  I hadn't seen this before either! 

Cat and Ducks, what is your estimation of the few people in his life that he does not ever question.  (as a side note, my husband was an athlete as a kid, and as an adult, he competed, or coached teams who competed at very high levels).  These people he doesn't ever question- and almost takes on a similar identity to, are exclusively people who beat him in this sport, went further in this sport, or made a lot of money in this sport... aka billionaires and Olympians.

hmmm.   I'm not sure.   I am wondering if he has objectified them.   as the examples he has of "perfect".    and as the perfect ~whatever~ they can never be wrong.  or questioned.

Margalis Fjelstad's says in her book;  'Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist'   that part of the relationship instability of a pwBPD is "overidealization of others (difficulty allowing others to be less than perfect, be vulnerable or make mistakes" while "simultaneously see themselves as both inferior and superior to others."

which I would say ties back to the unstable sense of self pwBPD struggle with.   

what do you think is going on Concerned2020?

I think maybe you are right, this is a big topic and might deserve its own thread.   Would you feel okay with splitting it off on its own?

How does your husband express his anxiety?   and how does he normally cope with feeling anxious?

When you are away, what does your husband do?   Does he go visit some one?   Watch sports?

Sorry for all the questions.   this feels like a tougher nut to crack.

'ducks   

Yes, I am okay with splitting this one off on it's own.  What he does when I get ready to go visit is become more "prickly" because he's anxious about it.  While I am gone away, he usually will try, and try really hard to keep himself busy doing things around the house.  One time I came home to a beautiful dinner he had made.  A different time, he just acted like everything was normal (like it would be with someone who doesn't have bpd).  Most times he's really happy to see me, I share a lot of pictures and videos while I'm gone (the reason is two-fold, I want him to know that my ex is not there, and I want him to see my beautiful grandson), and then when I get home, we look at the pictures and watch the videos together. 

So, the subject has reared it's ugly head again in the form of his prickliness, his shift in energy, and the entire energy of our home has changed.  He came right out and said it this morning.  he told me that he is frustrated, he feels unwanted, he feels like I married him to trap and trick him into not ever getting sex. 

I remembered what you guys said.  TRY TO JUST NOT MAKE IT WORSE.  Stay calm.  And I tried to validate. 

The validation wasn't well received, I'm not sure if I did it properly.  and I obviously knew this was coming, there is an unmistakable shift in 'the air' when he's frustrated.  But, from here, I really don't know what to do.  There is an entire conversation to be had.  What I NEED is an understanding of the damage that he's done in the past when he shames me sexually.  When he says horrible, awful things to me in a misguided attempt to get what HE NEEDS.

Concerned2020


Ok lets remember that people with BPD often say things that are simply not true. So either your husband hasn't been honest with the therapist, or he's possibly not being honest with you.

I KNOW exactly how you feel, my hwBPD is very demanding when it comes to intimacy, he would have sex every day if he could and I would happily be celibate. He doesn't understand at all that the way he treats me and has treated me has left me feeling like that is the last thing I want to do with him.

Stay strong, keep your boundaries. I have found that I used to bow down to hwBPD's comments in the bedroom about how he wishes I'd do this that and the other. But It was never enough, so he was never happy anyway.
I am swiftly learning that saying yes or no to something with him can often cause drama either way, so now I'm trying to be totally honest and firm.