BPDFamily.com

For about a month now, I've had low contact with my uBPD mother. I talked with her for about 5 minutes at a time once a week for a month, and the conversations were strained and awkward, always with her sounding like she was just barely controlling her emotions. Historically, she has been able to switch her tone on a dime and sound totally normal even after having a giant explosion of anger. I saw her do this as a kid multiple times, mostly when talking to someone who was not privy to our family drama -- a repair man, the guy behind the deli counter, or my brother. When my brother was home or when he would call, after he moved out, she would sound happy and like a normal person. She never let him see the rage. That's why it's so unbelievable to him now. I named this station he had achieved "guest status", meaning that he was like any other visitor to our home or some outsider -- he was treated kindly.
Well, all these brief conversations over the last month were awkward with manufactured (or just exposed?) stress in her voice, like she wanted to discuss the Forbidden Topic of how horrible my father is and how he abuses her, but she knows I have set my boundaries and because I'm so evil, I just won't allow my poor mother to speak her mind. To anyone not aware, my mother has accused my father of verbal abuse and I think it's probably more the other way around. They are having extensive marital problems and I have, for the first time, set boundaries to tell her that it is inappropriate to call me and rage about Dad and accuse me of supporting him and of turning out to be just like him and on and on. We used to talk every day, but for the past month, it's only been briefly, once a week, and they've been nothing conversations. Like discussions about the weather or whatever.
Well, yesterday I spoke to her and she sounded happy, normal, and engaged. It used to be that she would bring up whatever illness was bothering her or something about her relationship with my father, and that would be the only topic she would engage in. But this time, she asked about things in my life-- work, my wife, my son, and rock climbing. She sounded like a normal mother. She sounded like she's always sounded to my brother. We talked for a half hour! It felt so good to have that time with her.
So... what do you think has happened here? Have I achieved Guest Status?  Is it fake? Am I being naive, and this is just another strategy to pull me back in?

My gut feeling is that you have achieved "Guest Status" but only because she forgot to pay attention. I think she got lulled into allowing you into that status by how you conducted the conversations with her. Eg: you followed a completely different format to the category she had established for you.

I could be wrong, but I think it is temporary. I think she will remember that you have stepped out of your previous category and try to pull you back into it. If that happens she will be likely furious and escalate her bad behaviour.

She may, however, not get triggered into remembering "where you belong" and as long as you keep up your method it may work. I would suggest you throw in asking her questions about something she believes she is good at. Just so she doesnt get bored with the weather etc. and twig that you are "up to something".

I cant remember your full story, but she honestly sounds like she has Narcissistic Personality Disorder to me, rather than BPD but that could be just based on this post here without any background on whether she has a history of drug/alcohol use, risky behaviours, is a 'blank slate" that changes depending on who she is with. Just thought it worth mentioning that the change in behaviour depending on what status you are sounds a lot like how a NPD mother behaves. (I had one). [=poio0

Well done, though! It's fascinating to watch, isn't it, if it wasn't so horrendous.

Changing established patterns of behavior with parents without PDs usually takes much longer than a month. It would be prudent for you to stay on high alert.

Like Flossy said, I also think your mother's behavior sounds much more like NPD.

Next week, I will try tossing in a question about something she knows about and trying to discuss topics that interest her. 

I will stay on high alert...I feel that the status quo is always to stay on high alert with her because she could change her behavior and mood in seconds. The reason I thought she was more like BPD than NPD is because of how she treats people completely differently. It's as if either she is the best at compartmentalization in the world or she isn't genuinely as upset as she allows herself to appear around my father and me. We are, I think, the only people who have ever seen her explode in anger. Even those she deems her enemies outside the home, and there are plenty, she treats instead with the silent treatment or a scorched earth policy -- she will try to ruin them, but never speak to them again.

My paternal grandmother was one such person who she labeled public enemy #1, and her father was another. Both sort of earned the scorched earth policy (her father verbally and physically abused her and my paternal grandmother was just a witch with no social skills and made some real blunders, insulting her housekeeping and parenting and general life skills, and insinuating that she was not good enough for my father).
There have been employees she has tried to get into trouble or fired because she didn't like the service, but this is a bit rare. More common was just placing people on a mental list -- we like them or we don't like them -- and it could switch depending on how serious the offense was and she would swing the entire other way. She also, as I mentioned, sounds happy and normal to some people, and can be Mr. Hyde to others. I used to complain to my father, growing up,  "I never know which Mom I'm going to get." That's why I thought BPD, but I could be wrong. I'm not qualified to diagnose her.

Narcissistic rage isn't caused by emotional dysregulation so it makes sense that she can turn it off at will when she's concerned about looking good in the eyes of others.

This whole description of her confirms a NPD diagnosis for me. I am not a doctor, but I have a malignant Narcissist mother. (had). A pwBPD does not and cannot choose who to explode in front of, they can't control it. A pwNPD does it all the time and it depends on their 'status' in her eyes.

Also, "trying to ruin them" is classic NPD behaviour. Regardless so how long it takes the narcissist never forgets and does it cleverly.
Never let a narcissist know you are onto them. They will ruin you. pwBPD rarely do this, they might rage at them, but then drop it quickly as their energy is then spent on their rage.

I will find a link for some tips on NPD for you.

I did a 'google' search for the words...sons of narcissistic mothers. Quite a lot came up. There is also a good video for women married to the son of a narcissistic mother. For your own purposes I think it would be good to do a google search yourself and choose which type of site suits you best. A forum, a FB page or simply articles. I will also put in a link to the DSM5 , the diagnostic tool that is used by Psychiatrists to diagnose these monsters.

Best wiishes and have fun researching and validating what you have suffered. You deserve to recognise the pain you have endured.

Eaglestar...
DSM5 Criteria for diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK556001/


For partners of a son of a narcissistic mother.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy6BVOdINRQ

Eaglestar,
I don't know if you heard the term elsewhere first or coined it but either way, I think it's exactly right: "Guest Status." I thought that growing up when we would have guests and my mom would act friendly, more regulated, polite and happy. After growing up and getting married I felt like my husband & I achieved guest status UNLESS mom got me alone or was using the people around me to gang up against me to assert a non-truth. It's a fantastic descriptive term! I don't know why she can behave well in public or around witnesses, but horribly in private or in messages.

Thanks for putting that term out here!

The proof is in the pudding.  The changes you made appear to be working.

I had to transition away from wanting a close relationship with my “not a Hallmark” mom. To start, I left town for a month in the summer, and when I got back into town I was very low contact ( like you).  My time with her was spent listening to her talk about her favorite subject (herself), and neutral topics such as the weather and current events. In the beginning, I noticed a big improvement- she wasn’t attacking or raging. 

It is completely unstimulating for me.  But still worth while for me cs i could still fulfill my role as a daughter.  Things went pretty good for quite a run, until her physical and mental health got worse.  The trick for me is to tell her nothing of  myself.  So I’m less of a daughter than a servant to meet her needs for independ. 

So to answer your question, low contact can help with guest status, in my experience.

If you change back, she likely will too, in my experience

I think this is part of the "push pull". One poster described BPD as a disorder of attachment- the closer the relationship- the more BPD behaviors. I think this helps explain why someone with BPD can hold it together better with less intimate relationships.

But this doesn't mean the relationship means more to the person with BPD. It's easy to assume that though. When I see my mother act so nice to other people, I wonder why she isn't like that with me. Looking more closely at the behaviors- it's an act she can put on and it's still manipulative.

I think it's important that we consider keeping a distance for our own sakes, not as a way to achieve "guest status" as that is also controlling on our part. I don't share personal information with my mother because I don't want to feel that vulnerable to her. However, I also know this distances us. I don't necessarily want the distance- I see it as something I need to do because I can't trust her.

Just as distance may result in "guest status" - this can change. I didn't see my mother for a while due to the pandemic, yet as soon as I went to visit, it was back to the usual pattern for her.

I read the DSM V criteria but I don't know that she would meet it. She only meets 4 of the criteria and the requirement is 5 or more. She isn't grandiose, preoccupied with fantasies of grandeur, has never really said that she is "special" in any way other than her illnesses requiring specialists (which is actually true, she really does have rare illnesses, but she is constantly preoccupied with them if she isn't in a fight with my father), and she doesn't require excessive admiration. I don't know that we could say she has a sense of entitlement/ expectation of special treatment. I think she just doesn't like to be "crossed" by those who slight her by offering substandard service or insulting her. She is hypersensitive to criticism or to any slight. When she's in a mood, she may take substandard service as a cause for trying to ruin a person. But when she's not fighting with my father, she will usually let whatever happened go. Her mood can also change very rapidly as mentioned before. So I really don't know what she has. The other things on the list fit her well, except she doesn't act arrogant or haughty. She is exploitative and unempathetic. Maybe she's a combination of personality disorders.

I have absolutely found that distance improves our relationship. She has always been worst to me when I'm closest, either geographically or socially. At one point I told my father that maybe this was a compliment-- maybe she felt closest to us and vulnerable enough that she could share her intense fear of abandonment through these explosions. Maybe that means that my brother is not actually her favorite. But that was probably wishful thinking. I don't really know one way or the other. I feel more confused now than before, haha! I don't think she fits NPD to a tee, but can BPD behaviors change or not? You seem to say yes, and others say no. I am not qualified to judge. I only know that the Jekyll/Hyde trait is strong in my mother.

Hi Eaglestar,
Randi Kreger has several books published.  I am also in a group she hosts (another site). She explains the differences between NPD and BPD very well.  Just thought I'd mention in case you didn't know about her work.

Occasionally she even pops in here on this site.

b

For me there are two discriminators with my mom who displays traits of both NPD and BPD.  Her fear of abandonment and weak sense of self make me believe BPD as these aren't present with NPD.  That said a lot of the time she acts like my Dad, they've been married 55 years, and he leans NPD.  Hard to tell what's "her stuff."  This is hers:

I hate you, don't leave me (fear of abandonment) - this is BPD.  Fear of abandonment is present to the point that they create their own abandonment as a result.
Taking on other identities (my Dad's religious beliefs, he's atheist) her whole life because she has an unstable sense of self - this is BPD
Emotional dysregulation, strongly reacting to the slightest perception of being wronged by others - this is BPD (some rage some don't my mom's a rager).  BPD's experience  variable and intense emotion beyond what normal people feel.  Are frequently dysregulated in their emotional response.  For a normal person, experiencing emotions (even negative ones) is not a problem in and of itself.  However, for a BPD emotions become overwhelming or feel out of control, so they no longer help but actively harm their well-being.

Suffers from negative self image.   This means they have negative thoughts about them self, often comparing them self to others and as a result feel inferior OR they mistakenly look up to select other people.

Unstable sense of self.  When we have a strong sense of self, we are able to differentiate ourselves from other people.  A BPD cannot differentiate them self from other close family members.

Chronic feelings of emptiness.  The BPD feels incomplete, as if something is absent or missing inside of them, like they are different, set apart, alone, or lacking.

Look to others to help manage mood.  This often entails manipulation or controlling behavior.

Then some cross - putting you up on a pedastal one week then tearing you down - this is either.  You can also just say High conflict person to mean either NPD or BPD

b

My mother has many of these behaviors you've listed. The I hate you, don't leave me thing-- it is strongest with my father but also present with me. My brother, the golden child, has never gotten any of that from her.
My mother is terrified of abandonment. She imagines my father flirts with every woman he interacts with, especially those he interacts with on a regular basis. She overreacts to any perceived slight, and I always thought this was because she had really low self esteem. She has struggled with body image her entire life, and is extremely sensitive to any criticism about her appearance. She follows an amazingly strict diet, some of which is necessary due to her health, but most of which is her paranoia that anything other than what she consumes will lead to weight gain. She has not had any candy or sweet treats in nearly 50 years, since she was a teenager. I think her "menu" consists of 10 or so items she will eat.
I don't think she has a strong sense of self. I think she knows more of what she *doesn't* like than what she likes. She left my father's church because she doesn't like my father. She joined my brother's church. When I've talked about religion with her, I don't get a sense that she really comprehends the doctrine at all. My wife and I are very religious and belong to a different church. Faith is a very important part of our lives and so we're well-versed in the Scriptures and fully understand the doctrine. I understand the doctrine of all 3 churches (my father's, mother's and brother's, and mine) because I thoroughly looked into joining all of them, and some others, before choosing mine. I think I'm qualified to say that she doesn't really comprehend any of the 3 faiths. She definitely has the mental ability to comprehend it, so it has to be that she just hasn't read her own faith's doctrine, or doesn't care to think about it deeply.
She does seem to have chronic unhappiness, emptiness, loneliness, etc. She freaks out when my father leaves the house for any extended period of time. Business trips used to be very rough on me. Lots of raging about my father, plenty of silent dinners... She did not take his absence well. Even today, she criticizes him for doing anything out of the house, like volunteer work, golf, church activities, or even gardening right there in the backyard. But she hates him so... why does she care so much about him not being there?
These behaviors seem to fit well with BPD. To be clear, she *can* change her behavior on a dime, but she usually doesn't change her strong opinions about people. There are a few she has done a 180 and went from love to hate but there's usually not much recovery from hate.
I always got the sense that she would brag to others about me, but then when praising me in person, it was always backwards praise. "You're so smart, you'll be able to do anything you want to. You won't have any cause for worry or need of anyone to help you." She would say this in moments when she was feeling lonely, or when I expressed any concern to her about bullies at school. It always felt to me that she was saying "you're going to go off and leave me one day because you don't need me," or "your problems aren't significant enough to warrant any sympathy from me." I got the sense that she resented me for many things. She would accuse me of being heartless, cold, calculating, manipulative... and she believes that I am totally on my father's side. Despite our relationship being strained from a very young age, she still sent me cards every week when I was at college, she used to call me every day, and she complains that I don't live closer.  So she puts me on a pedestal in that way, I suppose, but I am definitely the Scapegoat child. I thought this was a BPD trait, but I could be wrong.

Wow eaglestar, it sounds like we could have the very same mother.  One difference is that mine has aged (she’s 85 now) so I have an additional set of problems.

We nons look at this rationally, but pwBPD aren’t rational, they’re  brain is wired differently- they operate on emotions rather than rational thinking.  You have mentioned her fear of abandonment.  The key emtion here is fear.  You also mention that your mom struggles with your dad even talking to other women.  She imagines he has feelings for them and is jealous.  Once she imagines it, she believes it as a fact.  This is how my mother is.  At their core, BPD’s feel unlovable.  Now she has this mental construct that your dad is flirting, which feeds her fear of abandonment.  In self defense to protect herself, she retaliates in ways that look like hate.  Hence the “I hate you dont leave me”.  Her behavior is driven by the emotion of fear, and very maladaptive coping strategies probably formed in childhood. 

It’s a horrible disease.  And the worst way to respond with a person with bpd, is to try to defend your dad, or explain away how impossible it is for your dad to be flirting.  This will invalidate her feelings and beliefs, and escalate the situation instead of diffusing it.  Instead of JADE, try SET, or asking valudating questions. Lots of new tools and techniques on this site to try. 

I can sure relate to your story of your mom.  That was her 20-30 years ago.  Everything changed for me when my dad died.  Then I became the person she projected onto.  But I didn’t realize any of this until just two years ago. 

Good luck.

Eaglestar,

There’s no way a BPD to control their emotions. My mother is highly narcissistic but has no problem having a weepy meltdown in public.

A person can have a destructive narcissistic pattern (DNP) without meeting the criteria for an NPD diagnosis. In the book, Children of the Self-absorbed there are lots of checklists to help you determine if your parent has a DNP.

Narcissists have a fear of rejection, and I can see how a spouse’s flirting could trigger that.

Something I learned on this board is that the BPDs who have the capacity for change are the ones who get a diagnosis early in life because they are able to admit that they have some problems.