BPDFamily.com

Continued from: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=351656.msg13154633#msg13154633

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I posted something over on my identity disturbance thread that I'm going to repost here.

James Masterson, one of the top BPD experts of our era (though now deceased) says this in his classic Search for the Real Self:

"This lifelong inability to separate [on the part of certain patients] and become autonomous was probably due to an innate genetic deficiency. The possibility that it might have been due to severely damaging developmental experiences was unlikely since their early histories were no worse than the early histories of other adolescent patients who did better in the study. Currently there is little research evidence regarding the exact nature of this type of genetic deficiency, but we have seen that some severely impaired individuals, whose conditions cannot be directly attributed to failures in nurturance or to acts of fate, do not respond to therapy of any kind; we assume that the root of the problem in these cases lies in a genetic or biologic deficiency. For example, studies have shown that the infantile psychotic will not respond to even the best mothering. In these cases, it appears that some innate deficiency, not inadequate mothering, is responsible. So nature has seen to it that we will not go through the first three years of life with the same ease or difficulty. Some of us will separate from our mothers and express our own uniqueness more easily, some of us will have a harder struggle to do so. Nature has not endowed each of us with the same psychological seeds for developing a real self, and as adults each person has her own unique range of strengths and weaknesses in the real self's capacities. What is present at birth will grow and develop, just as in a tree, the fruit, flower, leaves, bark, and structure are contained in the smallest of seeds."

I hope everyone who reads this thread but possibly not the other thread reads and digests this piece of information. If you are a parent like me who knows FOR SURE that they did absolutely nothing that could have possibly caused BPD to develop and that no outside thing or act of fate happened in your child with BPD's life, I think you should take at least some solace in the above passage. And then I think you should, if you haven't already, accept the fact that there is NOTHING you can do that will change this. It's so very sad, but it's just a fact. Many, many before me on this message board have already come to this conclusion.

Hi,

I have, it's my uBPD DIL. I joined maybe 6 years ago?
This thread is a relief and looks a lot like what was probably the last post I made here, Sept 2020.

My perception of the advice I was getting here was I am supposed to understand this person and figure out ways to deal with them, so I kind of felt maybe I was in the wrong place.
That is not to say that some people here have not been very kind and helpful to me (they def have and thank you). I just saw dynamics being described that I did not want in my own life. No judgement on anyone, I believe we are all doing the best we can.

I went no contact with said DIL and remain that way. It's a disaster for my son, but a disaster he chooses to live with.
She will try to get everyone and anyone to do everything and anything for her so she can just have as little responsibilty as possible and live her life how she wants. Basically, rescue her from prior choices, like becoming a mother, because she can't be bothered anymore. Yes, it hurts the kids and that hurts me but I can't be a hostage to it. I do have contact with my son after years of on and off contact, he finally realized I am not really the problem tho he does like to blame me sometimes when he backslides. I tell him to go ahead and blame me, I won't be taking responsibility for what is going wrong due to his own choices. He seems to get it now, that his choice to blame me does not mean the blame belongs to me, it's his choice he is making so he can avoid blaming her or himself. But by not fighting it and just brushing it off with "hey, I really don't care if you blame me" it seems to have lost some of it's appeal. He is diagnosed with ADD and I think there is something else going on with him but he has not  shared it with me and I don't press for info.

It's affected my health and everything about my life and it didn't even start with her, it started with my son's prior fiance and the child they had.

I took a good look around my family and remembered things therapists  said to me and realized my family is just filled with personality disorders, mental illness and addiction. Luckily, I personally escaped that in myself, my diagnoses are not really genetic (ptsd, anxiety disorder) but I do believe there is a strong genetic component to a lot of of this, which may explain why my son chose to have children with 2 women who seem to have BPD. I don't have any personality disorder but for some reason he is attracted to women who do. My mother did, this was confirmed by a therapist I had who met my mother, because she insisted she come to my appointment to defend herself. My normally non reactive therapist was kind of bug eyed thru the entire thing, so I know it was really bad.

Anyway, just a little catch up on me because I have not posted here in a while, but all my old posts are around here somewhere if anyone wants to read them. At some point I was actually trying to validate people here to want to walk away because my understanding of the default position here is to try to work with the BPD person and I just do not agree with that -

I can't.

All the thinking about my mother and genetics caused me to examine my own daughter more closely. She is literally a nightmare and we have been no contact for about 5 years. I dared to disagree with her friend about the something  in the news. She is just like my mother and I have been split not into just bad, but really super extra bad.

She writes many works of fiction about me and her childhood and her imaginary abuse, neglect, etc. and makes the posts public. She is very punishing, when she is not targeting me she is targeting someone else. She gets sued quite a bit, I am serious. I will never have any relationship with her again, I mourned the loss and am moving on. Under no circumstance, no matter how dire, will I ever acknowledge her again.

My theory on this is no matter how they came into your life, you can let go, you have a right to. Many years ago a therapist said to me "you have no obligation whatsoever to keep someone in your life who is abusive to you". It rendered me speechless (not an easy thing to do), I had no idea I didn't have to find a way to deal with or cope with or tip toe around the abuse.

Also, I was 'the fixer' in my family, so you can imagine how that blew my mind.

 :hi: to posters both familiar and new, I hope my response is in keeping with the topic and not too long.

Elizabeth22, thanks so much for stopping by the thread and adding your thoughts. I really appreciate it! I went back and read some of your older posts and found this quote from one of them to be particularly relevant:

"I guess maybe people come here to work thru these feelings and try to deal with the BPD person in their/our lives, but I decided I don't have to. Her mental illness is her responsibility, it's not my job to constantly deal with her, try to manage and navigate thru situations she causes then do it all over again. I do not believe these people are as helpless as we are led to believe, I think they know exactly what they are doing and how it affects people. I just make myself unavailable to her, I don't know if that's an option for you. My husband's therapist, and my own, back this 100%. They don't ask us to understand her, they tell us not to put up with her."

Exactly!

And then I liked this one too: "Like  you, I have feelings of hate and anger toward her.  I am not ashamed of these feelings and I don't plan on doing anything about it. She had recently tried to reach out to me thru my son and says she wants things to be 'normal again' and wants to 'get along again'. I said no, I am done with the absolute insanity and having to live with all the damage she has caused to me and others in my family, and continues to cause and will cause again."

I've called others here rock stars for taking this stance so I think the moniker is in order here too!

Hello to anyone who follows this thread. I know a few of you have this thread bookmarked, and some have reached out to me via private mail (see green bar above where it says Pvt Mail if you've never seen it) that it's been a lifeline. I generally like to keep the discussion on a thread as close to the original title as possible, but in this case I think I'm just going to start posting anything I have to say about BPD here as opposed to starting other threads (like my "identity disturbance" or "what if their audience is removed?" threads). I think in the end it will keep things tidier. So that said, I have something on my mind.

When I recently re-read James Masterson's Search for the Real Self, I was reminded that the genesis of what will emerge as the borderline personality occurs when a child does not successfully separate from his mother before age 3, either because (1) the mother herself somehow prevents the separation by her type of parenting (see description below), (2) fate intervenes and the child is separated from the mother before age 3 due to her death, her prolonged hospitalization, or the child's prolonged hospitalization, or (3) because the child is born with the genetic inability to activate his real self. I see a lot of folks on here saying that their child's BPD was caused by rape, or abuse, or some other type of thing that occurred later in life, and I think it's important that we all understand the fundamental dynamic of BPD as it has been described by the psychiatrists who recognized it. For your child to "have" BPD, your child would have not been able to separate before he was 3. So, see above "fateful" reasons, and if it's not due to those, then for it to be your fault, you would have had to have been an overly clingy mother, or somehow have infantilized your child, or relied on your child for your own worth and emotional support. You would have had to actively have prevented your child from separating because you didn't want him to, because you wanted to control him, because his attempts at separation panicked you or depressed you. You would have wanted your child to fill a hole in your life. If he rejected you when he was a child, it would have hurt you to your core. If he wanted to spend time with others this would have saddened you, and you would have found ways to prevent it. If your child is not genetically predisposed to developing BPD, then, according to Masterson, it is this type of parenting that leads to it. If you don't recognize yourself in that description (and I can't tell you how much I don't recognize myself in that description) then: (1) your child does not "have" BPD, (2) your child was genetically predisposed to developing BPD due to the non-emergence of the real self prior to age 3, or (3) Masterson is wrong.

This is the question I'm currently mulling. I'm wondering a lot whether BPD has been massively overdiagnosed/misdiagnosed/is just completely a wrong and unreal diagnosis. I'm also wondering if what I see as the genetic version, the "caused by smothering" version, and a version that is, I think, really more histrionic personality disorder are really just all distinct "disorders" with similar but very different expressions. I'm wondering still about the overlap of person with *subclinical ASD* and *those who have been diagnosed before the 2000s with pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified* with schizotypal personality disorder. I just no longer think we're all talking about the same disorder on this board. I welcome your thoughts.

Then there's Linehan's theory:

"Linehan proposed that the development of BPD occurs within an invalidating developmental context. This invalidating environment is characterized by intolerance toward the expression of private emotional experiences, in particular emotions that are not supported by observable events. Furthermore, although invalidating environments intermittently reinforce extreme expressions of emotion, they simultaneously communicate to the child that such emotional displays are unwarranted and that emotions should be coped with internally and without parental support. Consequently, the child does not learn how to understand, label, regulate, or tolerate emotional responses and instead learns to oscillate between emotional inhibition and extreme emotional lability. The child also fails to learn how to solve the problems contributing to these emotional reactions."

I believe that Linehan's theory is total BS and is based on her own extremely biased experience as a person with BPD. My child couldn't have been any more validated throughout his entire life. I did it highly consciously from the moment he was born. My sister believed herself to have been invalidated in childhood, but I was there. It wasn't that she was invalidated, it was that she was a PITA and did not get positive reinforcement for it. I'm sure that my experiences are not the only exceptions to this theory.

Years ago and I cannot remember when or where, I was reading a lot of "BPD is not real and not generally accepted by the psychiatric community, it's a catchall diagnosis that can be the combination of a few diagnoses or just something to use as a label when a diagnosis can't be found" (me paraphrasing).

This is from Wikipedia and if this is a cause, I should definitely have it, and I don't.

Childhood trauma
There is a strong correlation between child abuse, especially child sexual abuse, and development of BPD.[75][76][77] Many individuals with BPD report a history of abuse and neglect as young children, but causation is still debated.[78] Patients with BPD have been found to be significantly more likely to report having been verbally, emotionally, physically, or sexually abused by caregivers of either sex.[79] They also report a high incidence of incest and loss of caregivers in early childhood.[80] Individuals with BPD were also likely to report having caregivers of both sexes deny the validity of their thoughts and feelings. Caregivers were also reported to have failed to provide needed protection and to have neglected their child's physical care. Parents of both sexes were typically reported to have withdrawn from the child emotionally and to have treated the child inconsistently.[80] Additionally, women with BPD who reported a previous history of neglect by a female caregiver or abuse by a male caregiver were significantly more likely to have experienced sexual abuse by a non-caregiver.[80]

It has been suggested that children who experience chronic early maltreatment and attachment difficulties may go on to develop borderline personality disorder.[81] Writing in the psychoanalytic tradition, Otto Kernberg argues that a child's failure to achieve the developmental task of psychic clarification of self and other and failure to overcome splitting might increase the risk of developing a borderline personality.[82]

Elizabeth22, big hugs. I was never abused in any way so I can't even imagine, but I have tremendous sympathy for adult children who've been abused.

My S25 told me a few days ago that he suspects his physical therapist is a lizard. (Upon further investigation, I realized that he was referring to the David Icke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke) conspiracy theory that the world is controlled by a cabal of shape-shifting reptile humanoids. His leanings toward these thoughts are greatly exacerbated by his marijuana use. He told me he's going to attend an AA type meeting for people who are dependent on marijuana tonight.) I told him that of course he doesn't believe that and that I think he's just trying to get me to react. I told him that if he does indeed believe that, he should go straight to a hospital because he's hallucinating and needs to be on medication. I told him I'm really not equipped as a person to handle drug use or schizophrenia so he should be careful about what he's saying if it's not true because those two things in particular will alienate me since I have an almost phobic response to both. I realize that it's possible that it's true, and I'll deal with it if it is, but I can't help but believe he's trying to render himself helpless to his mental defects in the hopes I'll take care of him. The fact that he continually asks me to take care of him is a tell. Then in the strangest turn of events, he told me he's been involved with a woman over the past year or so, that she's not up to his standards of beauty and therefore he can't possibly be interested in her but that they see each other almost every day and they have sex when "she manipulates him into it." He at turns said she's very supportive and validating of him but that that makes him not trust her. He also said he hates her. He said she's going to go to a college a couple hours from here and starts in January (she didn't go after graduation from HS). Just to see what he'd say, I suggested that he go with her and that maybe she could support him. He was instantly enthralled with the idea and basically couldn't get off the phone fast enough with me to explore this possibility with her. The rapidity with which he transferred his need of me to support him to another woman was sort of astounding, though also expected. He said that if she supported him, he would devote his life to her and cherish her more than anything. He said this about a woman he had just said he could never love, be sexually attracted to, or respect. So while this idea might solve some of my problems with him (at least for a period of time), I feel incredibly guilty about the possibility of pawning him off on some strange woman. But she wants him to be her boyfriend more than anything in the world.

Last night he texted, "I love you and miss you."

Today he texted, "I'm losing even more weight."

I just feel so manipulated, but I'm standing my ground.

I've been quietly reading in the background and haven't posted for a while. Thanks to Leaf and others for continuing to provide inspiration and encouragement.
Boundaries are in place and my stomach is a knot of emotions: anger (this was a surprise), anxiety, fear, grief... perhaps other things as well I haven't quite figured out.
She quit counselling - again - because she wouldn't make the "life worth living commitment" and take suicide off the table for 10 weeks. I won't talk to her unless with a mediator so there's been no conversation. She triangulated through her 94 year old grandmother (my mom) in hopes of gaining a holiday invitation.
When I find my mind wandering into thoughts about whether she'll lose her car, her job and not have a phone... to what if her dog dies or her latest bf breaks up with her, I distract myself with Alanon reading and some great stuff I've found on this site. The crises have been unrelenting for a dozen years, and not surprisingly, have escalated severely in the past twelve months, indirectly proportional to my level of support. Bottom line:
I allowed myself to be manipulated for YEARS.
I allowed her to successfully push the 6 trigger buttons (hope, fear, guilt, sympathy, intimidation and exhaustion) for YEARS.
I allowed myself to be manipulated with "baby girl", "your worst fear" and "promises" for YEARS.
The HUGE emotional and financial disruption I've allowed in my life is staggering.
I'm 64. She is 34. No more. No longer.

{{{Tulipps}}}} I just wanted to offer my very sincere support and say, “Good for you!”

No you haven't allowed it. You couldn't possibly have allowed it ...because
 you didn't know. "allowing" something requires full presentation of knowledge of something, acceptance and giving in to it.

Maybe change the wording from "I allowed" ...to "I had"...

Your daughter is an expert in how she navigates the world and communicates. You are only just now beginning to "know/have knowledge" of how she thinks, behaves and communicates.

It's horrifying. But I must congratulate you on your intelligence and ability to see the truth despite the terrible but normal human emotions you will suffer as you see it more and more. Well done! You will be okay eventually.
I too, have had enough.

Age 68
Australia
Daughter unBPD 51...kept from grandson 6-20 years.
Estranged - her choice - 14 years
Now my choice.
I dont want her back in my life.

My daughter is married to a stiff, robotic man with Aspergers who is controlling, isolating, boring and has a giant stick up his b##t and no sense of humour at all, yet she has been with him for 25 years because he gives her life structure and a ton of money.

Who knows, this might be the perfect mating for him and for his needs and for her needs. Not for yours, sadly. But it might be the best outcome if you can maintain your distance from them both.

I know that sounds trite. I am sorry. I feel for you. The possibility of a child from such a union could create more heartache for you. I dont have answers to that.

Maybe practising acknowlegment with your responses, but not interest might be the best tactic for your wellbeing going forward now that you are in the loop regarding the relationship?

PS Somehow some of my answers came up in the excerpt part of the text.

Is he losing weight because he was overweight?. That is a sign of contentment and happiness. If he gets happy, it is in your best interests as well. It's so hard to do but if you can practise bringing in the worst case scenario for his life to compare it to his current status, it might help you.
Not denying your moral and ethical standards but coming to terms with that not ever being a possibility for him to attain those.

I am disgusted when I think of how my daughter has changed with being surrounded by wealth and security, but I comfort myself when I remember her using drugs, working in nightclubs and moving from man to man.

She is safe. She has also now had 25 years of practising "behaving herself" so that if the marriage fails, she has a chance of leading a safe life. The same may apply for your son Leaf. He may achieve an education and with it some sense of purpose and safety in the world.

I hope so. For you. I feel it is very possible. This all feels good to me.

Flossy! Thanks for responding. I'll dig right in. First, it's best to clarify that he texted me that he's losing weight because he wants me to worry about him. Prior to this starting 2 years ago, he had what one would call a perfect male body, very sculpted, not an ounce of fat, very good looking. Since this started, he has lost muscle and weight. In his mind, the ONLY things he had to attract women were his looks, particularly his body, and his former "cool" professional pursuit. To clarify to me the nature of the relationship he has with this woman, he said that she has told him that she never thought she'd ever be able to date someone like him. There have been women like this around him before, and he has always just not gotten involved in any way. She's like a groupie. He "allows" her around him because he's desperate. He says that she manipulates him into having sex with him when he's very high. I think he does feel shame that he has had sex with her because she is not beautiful even though when I asked him if this is the case he said no.

He told me that the only reason he hadn't told me about her yet (because he has a tendency to tell me everything) is that he just never really thought it was important enough to mention. He said he worries that if she agrees to support him and if they are then in an actual acknowledged relationship that she will harm herself once he "fixes" himself and leaves. So I guess it's good that he's clear that he does not want to hurt her. He's not using her for sex because he doesn't want to have sex with her. I guess it's the opposite—that she's using him for sex and validation. He's using her for emotional support and validation, in lieu of me, but he'd rather it be me. I said he can't do that anymore and that he needs to transfer to an adult woman who is not me, that he needs to separate from me and stop idealizing me. So I feel guilty because by suggesting he transfer to this woman, it feels like I'm signing her death warrant. I feel like the responsible thing to do would be to not encourage him toward her, but the reality is that she's completely in love with him (obviously has her own major mental health issues and need to rescue). I've read on the romantic BPD message boards where people say, "How could you let this person loose on society" to the parents of their BPD lovers/spouses. I get it, but also—who am I to play god?

You said: "My daughter is married to a stiff, robotic man with Aspergers...yet she has been with him for 25 years because he gives her life structure and a ton of money."

If this were the case with my son, that this woman he's involved with was as you describe your D's husband, I would have zero qualms. But she's not. She's a basket case with little sense of self or structure, no real career type job, and probably "has" BPD herself, and so I worry about her in this situation, not him.

You said: "Who knows, this might be the perfect mating for him and for his needs and for her needs."

That's why I suggested he go with her.

You said: "Not for yours, sadly. But it might be the best outcome if you can maintain your distance from them both."

It suits my needs if he transfers to someone else. As I've said here many times, at this point I don't care if I never see him again as long as he is able to live out his life in some way that at least makes him a little happy and in which he is financially secure. I crave nothing more than to keep my distance.

You said: "The possibility of a child from such a union could create more heartache for you. I dont have answers to that."

Actually it wouldn't. I'm fine not having anything to do with that either. He has said many times, though, that he doesn't think he's capable of producing a child because he and his partners have often used no birth control and nothing has ever happened (this despite the fact that I drummed into all my boys early and often to ALWAYS use a condom). He says he absolutely does not want children and would encourage an abortion if pregnancy was ever to occur.

You said: "He may achieve...some sense of purpose and safety in the world. I hope so. For you. I feel it is very possible. This all feels good to me."

The only thing good about it is the possibility of him transferring to someone else. I so wish he were a woman or gay. Then, sadly, he could get exactly what he wants very easily. I wonder if the difference between *women with BPD/gay men with BPD* who are beautiful and those who are not is that the former get what they want, i.e., someone to take care of them, and the latter mostly don't. Someone should do a study of that.

His text message to me from 4:12 a.m. today: "I haven't slept. I need your love back in my life."

Translation: "I want you to support me, cuddle and coddle me, feed me, comfort me."

Much appreciated. Truly.

My son texted me this yesterday: "I need you in my life on an emotional support level. My goal is to come home for Christmas."

I replied: "I AM in your life on an emotional support level. I can't say about Christmas. You haven't even been vaccinated like I asked you to be. You have got to stop being so dependent on me and others and stand on your own two feet. There's no magic to it, you just have to stop the clinging and dependency. You are asking too much of others. It's not sustainable."

Then he called, and I talked to him for too long. He reiterated how much he loves me (love bombing).

Today he texted this: "Can I send you a list of things I want for Christmas? Mostly stuff I need to treat [his supposed health condition]."

I replied: "No, and the fact that you sent this to me is very upsetting. Can you please back off for a while? I need to breathe."

He replied: "And I need [something for his supposed health condition that he wants me to buy]."

I said: "Do I need to block you?"

He said: "If it makes you happier."

I said: "Ok. Whatever this is is not healthy."

He said: "You're not helping to make it healthier."

And then I blocked him. So to me this is all blatant manipulation. It's so hard for me to believe that he's not aware of it.

Respect. 

Leaf

It is blatant manipulation. He is aware of it.

He is just surprised that the usual manipulation techniques are no longer working for him. I bet he smiled to himself when he said " If it makes you happier".

He is playing a game of cat and mouse hoping that Christmas time will make you see the little boy again and be nice to him. "Cos after all, he is cute. Right?

I know I am beginning to sound cynical but to me it's just the truth.

He seems to want to turn to you at night time. Maybe consider blocking him at 5PM every night and taking the block of the next morning at 9AM or whenever you feel you want to.

I refuse to be anyone's entertainment any more. I made a new friend earlier in the year who turned out to have BPD and she would text me anywhere form 2AM to 6AM, just for the hell of it. I blocked her permanently eventually. I didn't even explain, which is a whole new way of being for me.

If I ever see her and she asks why, she will be told "Because you don't behave yourself".

I need a T shirt with "Behave Yourself or I will Block You"

LOL, thanks as usual, lady. I couldn't bring myself to unblock him today. It was so much easier when he was calling me names and threatening violence. That's an easy and immediate block on my part. I don't even have to think about it. But this love manipulation stuff has me knocked off my axis. After I blocked him yesterday, he immediately texted his younger and completely competent and independent brother something like, "Why is our mother so f****** insane!" Younger bro called me instantly to ask what had happened. I told him, and he was incredulous that his brother had asked if he could text me his Christmas present list, expecting me to buy him the stuff. My constant feeling is that I want to just get in a car and drive far, far away.

Leaf,

When I read your posts, I see a lot of content about your son's sex life.
Do you think it's too much?
Do you think it's how he gets you to cross an inappropriate boundary?
What do you think would happen if you refused to discuss it with him?

There is your answer. You want to get far, far away...from him and from his ability to find you.

More and more I am convinced that few people get to come into our home. It's a privilege. Mobile phones and texting has allowed people to have the ability to come into our homes at any time they damned want to.

I disagree with it totally. In our case, leaving a portal through our phone is the same as granting them the right to just walk through the front door without even using a key or a doorbell.

I think if you can do it without unbearable pain, start increasing the time that you block him. Then reverse the tactic by only unblocking his number on a certain day of the week. Then a certain date of the month.

You may feel it is more fair to inform him of these changes each time before they happen. You will know if that's necessary.

You may need to tell your other son to do something similar or if he cannot do that, have a discussion about triangulation and see if you can work out a way for him not to get into your home through your other son.

It's likely that he will escalate because he will panic. If he does that then you could tell him he will have no access for a month.

Keep yourself safe in case he decides to pay a visit to "explain" how upset he is.

It may be possible to eventually have his ability to contact you reduced to 3 or 4 dates per year.

It may turn out that you decide to go NC eventually. I totally understand and support that decision. Nobody has the right to drive someone close to feeling constant despair about their own life through no fault of their own.

Flossy, while you're still here, again, thank you! You and I both know I know this but that I just need to be told and given permission to craft a situation that works for me. I also totally agree about the portal into the home. I took myself off all social media two years ago and have benefited tremendously from it. I miss getting things like plumber recommendations and news about things like what's going on in my youngest son's school, but that loss is completely offset by the benefit. This situation has very quickly crystallized my life philosophy. I'll post this now, which will hopefully be before you go just because I always want to let you know how much I appreciate you.

Flossy, I want nothing more than to go NC, but the guilt keeps me in this half-in, half-out state. If he were anyone but my child, the door would have closed within the first few weeks (days?) of onset 2 years ago. I can't help but think that NC is ultimately the thing I will do and that all this hemming and hawing over whether to do it is merely postponing the inevitable. Scaling back the helping to just emotional support seemed to be bearing fruit, and maybe it still could, though at this moment that seems less likely. And I've learned that my tolerance for any nonsense whatsoever is slim to none. I guess the decision is whether to be in the purgatory with him, or enter a different type of purgatory without him.

Hey Elizabeth,
You said: "When I read your posts, I see a lot of content about your son's sex life. Do you think it's too much? Do you think it's how he gets you to cross an inappropriate boundary? What do you think would happen if you refused to discuss it with him?"

I've always been very open but appropriate with my three sons about sex in an attempt to supplant their main source of information these days—readily available and free Internet porn—I'm certainly no Barbra Streisand in Meet the Fockers. My son made the revelation to me two years ago that the only reason he does anything at all is in furtherance of his goal to have sex with desirable (to him) women and that this is the absolute root, bar none, of his problem. To ignore that or behave in a way that makes him uncomfortable to talk about that (he doesn't go into further detail, just makes that statement and then we use shorthand language to refer to it in discussion) would be a disservice to him. I don't think it's inappropriate because it's discussed in the same way as if he'd said his motivation for doing everything he does is to prove to the kids from his high school that he's a star, or something like that. I think it's very important to know what motivates you because if that motivation is unhealthy—like both doing it for women or proving you're special are—then the earlier you recognize it and start disassembling it, the faster you can jettison it. He's actually made quite a bit of progress on it. Do I wish he was doing the work he's doing with a therapist? Yes. Am I uncomfortable discussing it? No. Do I think he's intentionally trying to get me to "cross a boundary"? No.

I think that the more you continue with your present management, he will lose interest in you as his main source of validation and then escalate his anger at you. The minute he targets another human as his main source you are done. Naturally that will result in NC with no guilt. It seems like the natural scheme of things. I know you know all of this and I do know it helps to read someone else say the thoughts to you. Sometimes I am too tired to write the extra's. I know you will excuse me and that is comforting. xxx

It definitely helps to hear someone say the words to me. Thanks so much for doing it. I appreciate it so much!

I was reading in the archives and saw some great posts by someone who used to post here. I won't give the name because having not been here in so long I assume they'd rather not be revivified, but I think it's ok to post selections. Here are my favorites:

"In my experience, the worst thing you can do is rush in and attempt to fix everything for your person with BPD. It's like trying to fill a black hole, and you just can't do it without jumping in and drowning alongside them...It took a while and his raging got worse but you know what? When faced with a rapidly reducing income and a flat refusal from us to subsidize his drug use, car crashes/fixes etc etc he worked it out. He now has 2 jobs and is never overdrawn. He worked out that he'd rather do something than be homeless and that if he kept expecting us to jump at every whim and drama we weren't going to come. Sometimes my husband and I literally had to hold hands and stop ourselves from jumping in to fix each crisis...But it worked. We don't have a relationship with him, and he tells everyone we are monsters, which gets him loads of sympathy, while we get to live thousands of miles away and are HAPPY. Please take those first tiny steps back from him and start saving yourselves first."

"It was amazing what my son accomplished when we stopped jumping in to fix everything. He doesn't even go overdrawn now because he knows we won't give him a dime. Stick to your guns."

"The first six months my BPD son raged and screamed and texted us all the time and we just kept saying No, No. He had to work out how to pay his bills, fix his car without us handing him cash. He had to stop abusing medication and smoking weed if he wanted to eat. Guess what? he did it. He apparently is working 2-3 jobs now and never goes overdrawn. He's also stopped asking for money as we are apparently 'dead to him' now. Which is okay."

"I haven't seen my 24 year old BPD son in person for over 3 years or spoken to him. The last direct email conversation I had with him was about a year and a half ago? I'm not even sure. Making the decision to go no contact with him nearly broke me, but 3 years in? I think it was the best decision for all of us and saved the rest of my family from the terrible harm he was doing to all of us. And after all his raging and screaming he's ended up getting 2 jobs, is off our payroll and doesn't go overdrawn or ask us for money. I'm okay with this, I'm at peace with it."

"My eldest son will not speak to or acknowledge his sibling with BPD, and you know what? I totally understand why, and to me when we discussed his reasons it was equally important to validate his choice to do that as a 25 year old adult. My youngest son totally validates his BPD sibling to the extent of cutting eldest sibling and us out as well. There is no 'everyone has to like each other' scenario with this disorder. It hurts us all and in the end."

Skip, who I gather is a retired site manager here, posted what looks like an excerpt from a work by Gunderson back in 2007, starting with the second post on this thread with the title "The 3 Levels of Emotions found in Borderline Personality." There are several places within the excerpt that are incoherent, I'm guessing due to missing text, but it is otherwise a very accurate description of my experience with my son's borderline behavior as his major object:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70884.msg579565#msg579565

Something another poster said on that old object constancy thread got me thinking more. I think the poster was quoting Mahler here:

"[object constancy is] the capacity to value an object for attributes other than its function of satisfying needs."

And then the poster added this interpretation: "And this one speaks volumes. To me it says that pwBPD, who *lack* object constancy, are unable to value (or love) an object (us) when they find that we no longer function to satisfy their needs. This is to say, they only love us so long as they need us. And when they do not need us, they find that they are unable to love us."

I'm not sure yet if this is what will happen with my son, but based on things he's said, I DO think he's confusing his need of me with love. Although as soon as I typed that I thought, "How would I define love? And how does love for a child differ from love for a parent?" Maybe love for a parent is just need-based anyway. But if that's the case, why can most children no longer need their parents but still love them dearly? Ach, I'm confused!

I said this years ago. Pretty sure I said it on here as well. They confuse "need" with "love" and when they don't need you they no longer love you.
The only way they will reverse their demonisation of us is when they need us again for some reason. In my case, that would only be if my daughter lost her in-laws and/or needed replacement grandparents for her son.

As far as your last question goes...Maybe love for a parent is just need-based anyway. But if that's the case, why can most children no longer need their parents but still love them dearly?

...Because most children have developed an attachment to their parents by the time they no longer need them. Those on the Psychopathic spectrum (which I believe pwBPD are) don't develop attachment to anyone. Nor any living being.

I would love to find if anyone has done studies of children who have killed one or both of their parents. It would be interesting to see if they meet the criteria for BPD and/or Psychopathy.

PS I am not saying that pwBPD are likely to kill their parents. I doubt that is a risk. But, I do think some who show extreme rages are capable of it.

Hey Flossy. You said: "I said this years ago. Pretty sure I said it on here as well. They confuse "need" with "love" and when they don't need you they no longer love you."

Maybe it was you. Did you used to post under another name here?

You said: "The only way they will reverse their demonisation of us is when they need us again for some reason. In my case, that would only be if my daughter lost her in-laws and/or needed replacement grandparents for her son."

I believe 100% that she would contact you the moment that occurred.

You answered my question of: "Maybe love for a parent is just need-based anyway. But if that's the case, why can most children no longer need their parents but still love them dearly?"

With: "Because most children have developed an attachment to their parents by the time they no longer need them."

But I wonder if that's it because my son is, I think, overly attached to me. I've run the possibility that he's insecurely attached to me through my brain, too, and I don't discount the possibility of it, but I'm positive, due to the complete intentionality of building a secure attachment on my part, that if that's the case that he was born that way. I wonder whether the almost scientific way in which I set about building attachment from his infancy might've circumvented the demonization of me later, and that had I not gone to such great lengths that I'd be in the same boat as others here instead of the somewhat atypical boat I find myself floating along in. I'm not saying my boat is better AT ALL, just to be clear.

But putting that aside for the moment, other than attachment, I find myself pondering the nature of love for a parent as distinct from love for a child or romantic partner or friend.

You said: "I would love to find if anyone has done studies of children who have killed one or both of their parents. It would be interesting to see if they meet the criteria for BPD and/or Psychopathy. PS I am not saying that pwBPD are likely to kill their parents. I doubt that is a risk. But, I do think some who show extreme rages are capable of it."

So, due to the nature of my son's onset of whatever this is that is happening with him, I have found myself thinking about little else than your above statement for two solid years. I've read countless things about serial killers (because he claimed he thought he was one), I've read multiple studies on matricide and patricide (because he hinted that this might also be the way he was thinking), I've talked to several psychologists, and had my son sit for a 10-hour evaluation by a forensic psychologist (nothing of note to report other than slight autistic traits and major depression). My son now says that he made it all up to bother me, and that none of it was true. But I know that's not right. There are far too many logical inconsistencies in the account to allow for it all to have been fake. My theory is that he's been repressing his rage for me for so long that when it finally broke through in such fantastic fashion and was met with such a total shutdown by me (I refused to deal with him when he behaved that way), the only way he could eventually save face was to disavow it. And I think he believes the lies he tells himself and me about it not having been real because to acknowledge that it's real is far too overwhelming. I think he is one extraordinarily complicated dude. As I've said elsewhere on this forum, even his highly acclaimed and prominent NYC psychiatrist did not know what was wrong with him. The intricacy of it all and the way he presents to everyone who meets him reminds me way too much of Ted Bundy. My son is good looking and comes across to most everyone as shy, sweet, intelligent, talented, and personable—the kind of guy who would never hurt a fly, just like Bundy. In fact, their manners were/are very similar. It was in the ER of his first hospitalization in December 2019 that he first exhibited the extreme rage. It was so shocking because it was so completely out of character. He simply became a completely different person in an instant. I've never seen anything like it, but it was very similar to descriptions of Bundy when what he called the darkness took over. Over the next 6 months, he sent many outrageous texts (I've included one below) and spent several hours one night explaining to me how he was pretty sure he was a serial killer in the making. That, combined with his bizarre red pill thoughts about women, and I became convinced that all of it was real. But because he is so mild-mannered (Brian Laundrie also comes to mind), no one else related to him took me seriously, even after I showed them texts like these.
 
******Trigger warning. If you're sensitive to rage, don't read on:******

"I hate you so goddamn much, and I hate life and everything in it and just want to see people suffer as I suffer. I want to cause mass suffering throughout the world and show people why they should want to kill themselves and that life is s***. S*** s*** f*** you for giving birth to me. I can’t deny this is all I want. I’m pure evil and I want to end it all for the greater good of my own feelings and that of others. I’m going to hurt people some day, so I’d rather just eliminate myself. Nothing can change my mind. I’m going to prove it to you. It’s my life’s goal to show you I’m incurable and will forever be begging for an easy death from the world. And if I can’t kill myself I’m going to make your lives horrible by you forever having to deal with me and sink down your life force till we all rot. I will be a negative force of energy in this world. It’s my decision. You can’t f***ing make me some good person or piece of s*** or whatever the f*** that is. F*** everything you’ve ever done for me you piece of s***. Love is a fickle emotion only pieces of s*** feel. Kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me kill me. Life is horrible. Humans are animals and I can’t wait for my death. I wanna get the f*** out of here. I’m not meant to be alive, I’m just meant to be dead and so is everyone else. Everyone should die. Every last one of us. I need to find a partner to join me in my hate, and together we can kill each other. I might hate you more than I hate myself. You’re a s*** parent, a s*** person, and just overall an incredibly unpleasant piece of s*** to be around. If I could kill a lot of people I guess you’re right, I would. I just don’t want to deal with the consequences cause I’m a coward. But the feelings and urges are all too real, and I can’t just live idly in this world. It causes personal suffering which cannot be explained, and I have to do something about it. You would do the same if you felt the same way. I don’t care about anyone in my life enough to feel bad about killing myself. In the end you’re all pieces of s*** that deserve death. F*** you for giving birth to me. F*** you for raising me. F*** you for thinking there is joy in this world. F*** you for tricking me into having stayed alive the past 10 years. I should have killed myself when I was 15 when my unbearable suffering began. F*** you f*** you f*** you f*** you f*** you f*** you. I’ve never hated a single woman more than I hate and loathe your existence. F***ing rot. I’m gonna make you regret you ever had kids. You created a truly evil person, and I will never stop showing you my hatred as long as you live. My goal is to make your life h*** since simply living for me is the biggest h*** ever. Suffer you b****. I’ve been brainwashed since I was a child by everything you ever showed me, making me think I’d be happy helping people, but no I’m not happy helping anyone. I want to see them suffer and scream and die in front of my eyes. I want to see others killing each other and tearing people apart while I watch from above and let it happen. I want to cause a mass suffering.
Maybe I should become a neo-Nazi. I’ve decided I am one. I want to make sure you’re never happy because you gave birth to me, and that’s enough for me to forever scorn and loathe your existence you b***h. Every time you think of me just hear my voice saying “f*** you b****” to you cause that’s how I always feel about you, you eyesore. Just drop dead. F*** you, f*** you, f*** you, f*** you, f*** you, f*** you, f*** you. Die."

He agreed to talk to a psychiatrist after I got this particular text, and that doctor, who had not met him but to whom I sent the texts, sent the police to his dad's house to take him to the hospital for the second time (this was July of 2020), and I didn't have contact with him for 5 months afterward. So, all that, and much more from a gentle, loving young man who had not once ever shown any anger or disrespect toward me or anyone that I know of at all because, in his own words, he loved me so much and I was the most wonderful mother ever, etc. etc. (again, I've always been highly uncomfortable with his over-the-top love for me). When we reestablished contact, he was back to love, love, loving me and hasn't stopped. I'm reminded of how much Bundy loved his mother and how she sickeningly stood by him even after the evidence against him was incontrivertible. And the psychiatrist who worked with Bundy in the prison later recanted the diagnosis she'd given him at first and replaced it with BPD. So yes, I've given all of this soo much thought. But now my son says it's all good, never was a thing, and that he just said those things because he was really angry at me for not buying him something he never even asked me for in the first place that he needed for his profession. Thoughts?

Hi all! There have been over 1,000 views of this thread in 20 days but only a handful of posters. Please, please take some time to post on it. It would really help me to hear from people. You don't have to respond to everything or anything in particular. You don't have to post a long history of your particular situation with your kid, or introduce yourself, or anything. I just want to hear what you have to say, even if it's only a sentence. Thanks in advance!

Leaf is right. Come on guys. If a thread is good enough to read, please do the OP the courtesy of leaving a thought or at least a comment saying that you read it.

It is a difficult thread to be a part of and not at all easy to write in with open and honest thoughts. The people who have found the courage to share their most personal, painful thoughts about their child are brave and could do with the support of those who read the thread, even if you don't agree with the thoughts or are not there yet.

Hey Flossy. You said: "I said this years ago. Pretty sure I said it on here as well. They confuse "need" with "love" and when they don't need you they no longer love you."

Maybe it was you. Did you used to post under another name here?[/b][/b][/b]

...Yes I did post on here under another name, which I cannot remember or it could be that I couldn't log back in and had to make a new Username. Who knows, I dont try to make my brain remember things any more. I know I did make a new Username. It would not have been me who posted that as I rarely include quotes of experts.


Quote:
But I wonder if that's it because my son is, I think, overly attached to me. I've run the possibility that he's insecurely attached to me through my brain, too, and I don't discount the possibility of it, but I'm positive, due to the complete intentionality of building a secure attachment on my part, that if that's the case that he was born that way.
...I think my use of the word 'attachment" is more the same kind of use that Psychologists use. In layman's terms, neurotypical children who become adults are attached to their parents because they got to know them well. Their needs and their personality traits. They then developed from that a liking for them, a fondness, a desire to meet those needs and consider their traits when interacting with them. Basically, caring about them.

In pwBPD I think this is what is missing. Same as in a Psychopath. I think your son sees you as a thing. An object. For his use. He is attached to you because he can make use of you. In the past at least.

Your feelings about his attachment to you and his Overly loving attention to you tells me that he was born like this. A mother does not get a creepy feeling about their child because of their imagination. That sensation would have to be based on reality.

I wonder what happened at 15. Did he do a lot of marijuana or mushrooms? His text is horrific. He truly sounds like a Psychopath. I used to work in Psych Wards and saw many young men develop Schizophrenia from regular marijuana use. But he definitely shows BPD as well. To the extreme.

Perhaps his BPD is so extreme he is simply at the end of the Spectrum that makes him a Psychopath.

Regardless, I think he is very dangerous and I encourage you to keep yourself safe when at home where he knows you live. I also strongly encourage you to reverse manipulate him as much as you are able to in any communication that involves him becoming escalated.

Regardless so what you know to be the universal truth, he cannot be told the truth. It could/will tip him over the edge and cause him to target you with extreme violence.

I cannot remember if he has ever had a diagnosis of Schizophrenia. Please excuse my memory.

Hey Leaf and Flossy, I heard your plea. Just wanted to say I have followed this post from beginning, haven't contributed becuase I felt I had nothing to add. My situation is very different, my niece was diagnosed with BPD at 15. At the time she was in my care, when she started dysregulating  I took her straight to my therapist and got a diagnosis, put her in a three week residential program. I called her parents and told them to come get her when she got out. I had  found out she was abusing prescription drugs and one thing I do not do, even in my worst co-dependent days, is drugs.
She is doing great these days, therapy, hard work on her side, family support, and may I say firm boundaries from me. Finished high school and is in college. We are even talking about her coming to visit me again.
As you can see the situation is not the same, I was able to force her parents to step up which was what she really needed. An aunt could not fill the hole of how her parents had emotionally abandoned her and the crisis pushed them to try to be more present (I am firmly convinced her dad is uBPD and her mom just plain crazy ). They never quite made it to family therapy but slowly things are changing. Because I changed.  That upset the family schema and forced everyone to change and grow.
I read your posts and I respect you for your willingness to go deep.
 :hug: :hug:

Sorry, I am one of those who have been following the thread, but have nothing to add since I am not there, YET.  I read postings on this website almost daily trying to somehow find answers.  I am not sure I have found a lot of answers, but it helps me gain perspective that this is not going away and I need to figure out how to approach it long term.

Our daughter was diagnosed with bpd, but now they have decided she has bipolar.  Maybe she has both.  She is 18 and a senior in high school.  We have been dealing with her behaviors for what feels like her whole life.  I am pretty much at the end of my rope and can't cope with her living here long term.  I feel like a horrible person to think that way, but our marriage and our physical and mental health are all suffering.  It feels like she is drowning and taking us down with her.

Thank you for all the brave folks who share your experiences and insights.  It is very helpful for those of us who are not as far along on the path as you are.
 

Thank you so much for participating, khimbomsis and love never fails! I really appreciate it. You don't have to be not helping your adult child or even have an adult child to participate on this thread. What I would love to hear from people is (a) what is it about this thread that has you reading and (b) what thoughts spark in your brain when you read what's here, like those tiny germs of thoughts that you don't think are worth posting about, sneaking suspicions about your child or observations of your child or feelings about your child. Stuff you'd never admit to feeling/thinking to anyone who knows you. It's those nuggets that really get my own brain going when I read them, even when they're buried in really long posts, and by the way I read every new post on this board, but I refrain from commenting on other threads because I fear that my abrupt posting style might not be the best response for everyone, so as I've said upthread, if you want to interact with me, please do it here. I so do not want to offend people. There used to be so many people here 10-15 years ago and so many of them were amazingly insightful, and I love to dig through the archives for wisdom, but there's nothing like interacting with real-time people. It absolutely makes me think harder and better.

Flossy, to answer your question "I wonder what happened at 15. Did he do a lot of marijuana or mushrooms?"

He didn't drink any alcohol until he was about 19, but he didn't like it so he doesn't drink. When he was about 22-23, he smoked marijuana for the first time and fell instantly in love with it. It definitely has played a very large part in all of this because one can't ignore the fact that soon after he started smoking, the behavior changed dramatically and sustainedly. He says that many of the angry thoughts existed prior to his smoking though, so perhaps the drug merely loosed the monster on the world. He was a very hard-to-soothe child with a hair-trigger (zero-to-sixty) dysregulation reflex up until he was around 10-12 years of age. He was the definition of "The Sensitive Child" and had extreme reactions to loud noise, taste, itchy touch (not human touch), and lots of other things. When he was 24, he told me he did many (he says around 12) acid trips (using what he called "the best acid available") in an attempt to rewire his brain to overcome his depression and anger. After the first few, he called me to apologize for all the anger and craziness in those texts and otherwise, so I guess maybe it helped, but it also predisposed him to thinking he now has all the answers to the universe, not in an overtly psychotic way though.

Age 15 was the onset of the depression and also extreme self-consciousness where none had previously existed. He had always been unable to handle competition throughout his life, yet he chose a pursuit that was highly competitive. Because he was so naturally good at it and usually "won" or was at least "one of the best," he was doing okay with the competition and it seemed to be helping his self-esteem and peer relations. But then at 15, he lost at something competitive regarding it, and he says that that was the catalyst for the first major depressive episode with major suicidal ideation. I've always believed it was that he liked a certain girl, and the fact that he failed the competition meant he couldn't participate in an out-of-town event that she would be at and then he found out she didn't like him in "that way" anyway. As I've said, he tells me now that all that ever mattered to him since he was around 10 was whether girls liked him and would be physical with him. Since that time, his default is suicidal ideation. I don't think there's ever been a time when it was far from his mind.

You said: "His text is horrific."

I agree. And I wonder about texts that other people here have referred to that they've received from their children with BPD. Are they as bad as my son's? Or is this just par for the course? Is this as unusual as I believe it to be, or is it just commonplace with BPD? If there's one thing I'd love for readers of this thread out there to weigh in on it's this particular question: Are the horrible texts you receive from your children as bad as the one I posted above or is this truly unusual? If it's just run-of-the-mill, that would be somewhat reassuring, at least concerning my and other people's safety. If it's not, believe me, I want and need to know.

You said: "He truly sounds like a psychopath."

I agree.

You said: "I used to work in Psych Wards and saw many young men develop Schizophrenia from regular marijuana use."

Yes, and I've known about the fact that marijuana use can bring on schizophrenia from long before I had children, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to keep my sons away from it, at least until they were in their 20s, because studies have shown that if you can get them beyond age 18, the effects are not nearly as great or long-lasting.

You said: "But he definitely shows BPD as well. To the extreme."

So, if you went and read that post by Skip of an excerpt by John Gunderson that I linked to above (and I noticed that more than 50 people did, since I noted the page views on it before and after), the one about object constancy that I said contained a description of The 3 Levels of Emotions found in Borderline Personality, you'll see that my son actually corresponds to it perfectly. I'll cut and paste some of it here:

LEVEL I

When a major object [in my son's case, the "major object" is me] is present and supportive, the depressive, bored, and lonely features predominate. Here the borderline person is at the first and best level of function. It is characterized by considerable conscious longing for closer attachment but considerable passivity and failure to initiate greater sharing within the context of the relationships. There is a capacity here to reflect on past failures and to identify conflicts and resistances realistically. There remains, however, considerable concern about the object's fragility and concurrent fears of being controlled by becoming dependent. As Kernberg (1975) has pointed out, such concerns reflect fears of projected hostility, the wary expectation of being controlled can be used as an active attempt to gain control over others. The result is that a dysphoric stalemate exists in relationships, which is periodically disrupted by regressive efforts to provoke reassurance from the other or by progressive initiatives to acknowledge what they want and feel they need from that person more fully. Two major organizing and sustaining beliefs are "Should I want more from you, or should I be angry with you, you will leave" and "If I'm more compliant, something will be given to me that will make me invulnerable and less destructive." The nature of this "something" is generally not well defined. Behind these conscious beliefs are concerns with the destructiveness of their own aggressive wishes and wishes to find a powerful protector. In any event, the basic tension between wanting more from the object and fearing that less will be received accounts for the sustained dysphoria characteristic of borderline functioning at this level.

LEVEL II

When a major object [again, the "major object" here is me] is frustrating to borderline persons or when the specter of their loss is raised, a second level of psychological functioning and a different constellation of clinical phenomena are evident. The angry, devaluative, and manipulative features predominate. Although the affective tone of anger is pervasive, it is only occasionally expressed as open rage. More frequently, it takes a modified form such as biting sarcasm, belligerent argumentativeness, or extreme demands. The anger is modified to alleviate fears of losing the object (in reality as well as its mental representation), while it still communicates the wish to maintain a hold on the person. Failing this, the patient can attempt to deny the fear of loss by dismissing the felt need for the object (i.e., devaluation) or attempt to prevent loss by dramatizing the object need. Manipulative suicidal gestures are frequent under these circumstances. At its extreme, when there is danger of the anger becoming too uncontrolled, the rage gets projected onto the object and paranoid accusations occur. All of these reactions are best understood as efforts, often conscious, to control or coerce the object into staying. These issues - to feel the need for a reliably available other and to feel able to control that person - have not changed from the higher level. Rather it is the repertoire of defenses and their behavioral expression that undergo regression and are most specific to the borderline patient. These reactions continue as long as the object is still perceived as accessible or retainable. The disabling effects of anticipated loss can frequently be seen as the patient struggles to find some acceptable expression of its attendant affects. This can take the form of rather elaborate and poorly connected affective states - giggling, bland dismissals, sudden rages, and, of course, extreme lability. The distinctive feature is the dissembled unsustained quality of the affects.

LEVEL III

When a borderline person feels an absence or lack of any major object [again, me or could be any "me" replacement], then a third level of psychological function becomes predominant. The phenomena during such periods include the occurrence of brief psychotic episodes, panic states, or impulsive efforts to avoid such panic. These phenomena each represent efforts to ward off the subjective experience of aloneness (Adler and Buie 1979a) and, I would add, total badness. Under ordinary circumstances, this aspect of the borderline around - even if without any evident emotional contact, in using radio and television as hypnotics, or in heavy reliance on transitional objects (Arkema 1981; Morris et. al. 1984). Under the more extreme circumstances when there has been a loss of a specific and essential object relationship, dangerous impulsive acts occur that most commonly consist of taking drugs or alcohol. These serve both to numb the panic and to initiate social contacts. Fights and promiscuity occur under these circumstances - often assisted by the disinhibiting influence of alcohol - and reflect desperate efforts to establish contact with and to revive the illusion of control over some new object. A second major type of reaction against the experience of aloneness is a prolonged dissociative episode of either the depersonalization or derealization types. These detach the borderline person from either the reality of bodily distress or the reality of the environmental situation that evokes that intolerable distress. During dissociative episodes, nihilistic fears occur ("am I dead, has my body dissolved"), and these may give rise to self-mutilation in order to confirm being alive by feeling pain. Frequently, such self-mutilation is accompanied by restitutive fantasies in which the absent object is either believed to be performing the act or is being punished by the act, but in either event, is still involved. These self-mutilative actions are quite different in their intent and subjective experience from the suicidal gestures that occur when ongoing contact with a specific object is still being sought. Sometimes nihilistic ideas slip from dystonic fears to become beliefs; they then take on aspects of psychotic depressions. The conviction of being evil and nihilistic beliefs are two extremes that the borderline patient achieves when the usual defenses of action and substitutive objects are not that Kernberg (1967) refers to the borderline's very primitive underlying, generally avoided, abandonment depression as central to his formulations. Perhaps because of the amount of interpersonal involvement and the borderline person's dramatic responsivity to such involvement, sustained depressions of psychotic proportions are unusual in borderline patients, particularly for those who are in treatment settings. Occasionally, bizarre imagery, simple hallucinatory phenomena, or transient somatic delusions occur. The object restitutive aspect patient who developed the belief she was pregnant, or the patient who developed anal and urethral retentiveness requiring emergency room care). The most common delusional experience is ideas of reference. Not only do these project unacceptable self-judgments, they sustain a sense of involvement with nonspecific others where none exists. The general point here is function (desperate impulsivity, substance abuse, dissociative episodes, brief psychotic episodes, and ideas of reference) represent efforts to manage the fear of aloneness and the sense of badness. This badness is related to beliefs that they have failed or wronged their object. These experiences of alone-badness and the panicky reactions to it are seldom seen within the hospital or psychotherapeutic context. As described subsequently (Chapter 7) they do, however, often come to the attention of clinicians as a reason for seeking treatment or as phenomena described retrospectively by borderline patients. Understanding the context in which they occur is important so that their recurrence can be anticipated and avoided. [This is the end of the excerpt.]

[This is me again] I know it's possibly a bit complicated to get through the above, but it very clearly delineates the levels that my son has been in since this started 2 years ago, and I believe Level III perfectly describes what had been going on in his acute stage: "brief psychotic episodes, panic states, or impulsive efforts to avoid such panic," "using radio and television as hypnotics," "heavy reliance on transitional objects [the not-me substitutes]," "sustained depressions of psychotic proportions," "taking drugs or alcohol both to numb the panic and to initiate social contacts," "fights and promiscuity in a desperate effort to establish contact with and to revive the illusion of control over some new object," and "prolonged dissociative episodes." All of this applies to my son. And I believe that the following quote describes how you tell it's BPD and not schizophrenia or another schizoaffective disorder: "These experiences of alone-badness and the panicky reactions to it are seldom seen within the hospital or psychotherapeutic context."

So, as I've said before, you can't decide when you're going to be schizophrenic. When my son enters a hospital, he instantly becomes 100% sane, with absolutely zero symptoms. He can explain everything away to the satisfaction of all highly trained clinicians. He can also do the same with his dad, his brother, and his friends, and he tries to do it with me, but I won't let him. Also, he has never had an auditory or visual hallucination. So no, he has never been diagnosed with schizophrenia. For a while there this past spring, I thought he might be in the prodrome, but since then he's been mostly Level I and II with very little if any Level III to my knowledge. Otherwise he fulfills every BPD criteria. He has received no diagnoses because so far no one has been able to diagnose him.

You said: "Perhaps his BPD is so extreme he is simply at the end of the Spectrum that makes him a Psychopath."

This is my fear.

You said: "Regardless, I think he is very dangerous and I encourage you to keep yourself safe when at home where he knows you live."

We keep our security system on 100% of the time.

You said: "I also strongly encourage you to reverse manipulate him as much as you are able to in any communication that involves him becoming escalated. Regardless so what you know to be the universal truth, he cannot be told the truth. It could/will tip him over the edge and cause him to target you with extreme violence."

I do this and know exactly what you're talking about.

Hi Leaf
The first paragraph quoted here defines it to an exact description. He is not Schizophrenic but BPD to the extreme. Your observations here are perfect. I would be taking these paragraphs and making up a document for future sharing with medical/legal authorities if necessary. They are precise and clinically based. They represent what it would take years to discover by any professional.

In your position I would live "as though". Live as though he is a Psychopath and reverse manipulate so that you never let him know what you think. It's horrendous, but it will also allow you to detach further and further from him emotionally and that is necessary. We don't know how he will present in ten years from now. He may find enough validation and detachment from his extreme thinking to present as much less Psychopathic. Especially if he attaches to a female who wants him as a life project and partner.

So what I am saying Leaf is that making a habit of thinking of him in the extreme is not going to damage you. It will keep you safer. It will also organically allow him to move to someone else. I believe that these things happen by some kind of universal settling. I don't have the words at the moment to explain it better.

I don't feel you need to share those thoughts with your other son due to fear of his safety as he would not ever be a target. I think he is safe. The main thing to focus on is that he is not allowed to be used as a Flying Monkey for this son to get to you. It seems as though that is not a huge problem at present, so that is good.

I guess I am also saying that I think BPD has a sliding scale. If he is on the end of Psychopath now, I don't believe he will always be. I truly don't.
Once his needs are met by someone else, he will no longer be a danger to you.

He may try to re-establish contact with you to show "how much better" he is. In my experience with my BPD niece this never has a satisfactory outcome as the thinking and behaviour remains just as disordered even if less extreme.

For me, I cannot tolerate pwBPD at all not even for an hour in their company. I can barely resist the urge to say to the simplest statement of their thinking "O For F Sake, grow up". No tolerance at all and that would not be good for anyone, including me.

Flossy, thank you so much for the time you take to talk to me. I so appreciate it.

You said: "We don't know how he will present in ten years from now. He may find enough validation and detachment from his extreme thinking to present as much less Psychopathic. Especially if he attaches to a female who wants him as a life project and partner."

Yes, I agree, though I do feel a lot of guilt toward that hypothetical future woman. I also feel fear, since 3 years ago, even before the tsunami-like onset of outwardly expressed symptoms in December of 2019, he one night expressed very specific musings of killing a woman who did not reciprocate his interest. He is often consumed by jealousy and envy. I've discussed my fears with the various mental health professionals he's used over the past 2 years, and they've basically just said, "You can't lock people up for their thoughts" (which obviously I agree with, but which also seems so, so dangerous), but they've also reassured me that many people think evil thoughts and most never act on them. Their words don't help much as I just can't shake the feeling that something very bad is going to happen some day.

You said: "So what I am saying Leaf is that making a habit of thinking of him in the extreme is not going to damage you. It will keep you safer."

I already DO think of him in the extreme. I can't not. I've tried not to, but I've been unsuccessful.

You said: "It will also organically allow him to move to someone else. I believe that these things happen by some kind of universal settling. I don't have the words at the moment to explain it better."

You don't need them. I know exactly what you're talking about.

You said: "I don't feel you need to share those thoughts with your other son due to fear of his safety as he would not ever be a target. I think he is safe."

Unfortunately, this is not true. He (middle son) is definitely a target, and I have warned him not to have BPD son stay with him (in a state that's far away) because I'm afraid BPD son will kill him. I worry about youngest son, too.

You said: "The main thing to focus on is that he is not allowed to be used as a Flying Monkey for this son to get to you. It seems as though that is not a huge problem at present, so that is good."

Yeah, he goes to middle son, but middle son has never come to me about it until the latest episode. I think it's because middle son is finally starting to take me seriously after the events at their grandfather's funeral.

You said: "I guess I am also saying that I think BPD has a sliding scale."

Definitely. My sister is toward the other end of the scale, but now that she's in her 60s these behaviors are mostly just annoyances to those who are in her life—constant suicidal ideation and threats, drugs and alcohol during youth, teenaged rebelliousness, massive promiscuity (she was very pretty), blaming everything on our mother (not that she was perfect, but her parenting did not cause this), me, her husband, or anyone else available, unable to keep friends, need to leave jobs due to bad relationships. I think probably similar to your daughter except for the fact that my sister has an MBA and has been quite successful in her career and doesn't need her husband's money, but she does not treat him in a way I'm comfortable with. But he's successful too and can leave if he wants. I'm amazed that he hasn't.

You said: "If he is on the end of Psychopath now, I don't believe he will always be. I truly don't.
Once his needs are met by someone else, he will no longer be a danger to you."

I'm not so sure about this. And what happens to that woman when she's had enough and wants to leave? Gabby Petito comes to mind.

You said: "He may try to re-establish contact with you to show "how much better" he is. In my experience with my BPD niece this never has a satisfactory outcome as the thinking and behaviour remains just as disordered even if less extreme."

Yes, this is as it is now. We talked over the weekend. I read him the passages that I quoted above about the 3 levels of emotion found in borderlines. He listened and agreed that much of it sounds like him, but there's just layers and layers of disordered thinking that feels like it can never be undone. Maybe if he did therapy every day for 8 hours a day for a couple years. Maybe. But I feel like, given my ability to figure him out, that I owe it to the world to at least try to bring him to a level of self-awareness, because the more I've done it the less symptomatic he's become. It's just that it takes up practically every second of every day of either thinking about it, reading about it, and then at some point talking to him, and this is not what I want my life to be about. I have a job interview today so if I get the job I think that might help. I need to focus on something else.

You said: "For me, I cannot tolerate pwBPD at all not even for an hour in their company. I can barely resist the urge to say to the simplest statement of their thinking 'O For F Sake, grow up'. No tolerance at all and that would not be good for anyone, including me."

Exactly how I feel.

I am working toward not helping my 23 yo, even though she lives in my house. After weeks of hateful rages, I told her I would no longer engage without a third party (i.e., therapist) involved as she is completely irrational. For the past couple of weeks, we have not spoken. I try to remain emotionally blunted, despite her occasional stares and slamming of cabinets, doors, etc. Thank goodness, she continues to work for now. I pray that continues. She seems to have a great job that really suits her working in a greenhouse. Plenty of light, working with plants, and not too many people. I am in the process of moving out my younger 21 yo dtr to her first apartment. She has been so very traumatized by her sister's behavior and recently got her first professional job. She requested that we not say anything to her sister about the move as she does not want the drama. I am happy to help her in any way I can to move forward and am looking forward to staying with her while she gets settled. Will be so good for both of us to be able to breathe. As for my 23 yo, I have done all the helping, rescuing and fixing that I can do, so we will continue this path of allowing her to figure things out on her own. She told me not to buy her anything for Christmas and that she would "make" me take back anything I bought. I am really ok with that. Not sure how long we are going to continue the way things are, but nothing was working the other way.

Hi, hidingmyself! Thanks for posting here. I would insist that she move out. I could not stand what you're going through for even a week, maybe not even a day. It's awful that your other daughter has to move out instead. It sounds to me like you'll be practically living with her too. Why would you cede your home to her? Give her a month or so to find a place. There are websites that post rental shares that usually aren't too expensive. Don't pay for it yourself or sign any lease.

If she suffered no abuse and your parenting was reasonable, then tell her that she has zero grounds for complaint and it's not what caused her to be like this. The only (not negligible) hurdles at this point are your guilt, your grief, and your mom-ness. I hope you find the strength to kick her out.

It has been a few years since I have been on theis site. The last time I was posting, my 36 yo BPD daughter was finally homeless living in a shelter doing heroin. She finally cleaned up and actually had a decent job that paid $18 per hour full-time with benefits. She was living with a friend. This lasted about 18 months till the gentleman's daughter moved in and my daughter moved out. She actually found a recovery house to live in which was nice. She finally had her own car that she paid for with some help from me. This was April of this year. After only a month she left and said warm weather was coming so she was going to live in her car. Typical BPD impulsivity. I discouraged but you can't tell them what to do.
She now has no money, lost her job (no clue when) and it is below freezing. She has been sending hate texts and emails for close to month. She came to my office and when I went outside she attacked me with a baseball bat. Luckily I got it away from her. The next night she went to her mother's house (ex-wife) and tried to break in screaming at her. The police were called and took her away. I have filed a PPO as well as petition with the court to have her picked up and taken for a psych evaluation. She continues to email me and threatens if I do not put a roof over her head she will "do something". She spent a night in the old homeless shelter since it went down to 13 degrees F. Her mother and I refuse to help her since she again put herself in this position. She blames us for everything and that we were the worst parents and never should have children (we have a son happily married in Chicago with 2 beautiful grandchildren).
It is very difficult to step back. We did it the other way for too long. Helped put her up in a rented house before she went back on heroin is the most recent. That was when a therapist said enough. She was evicted and lost everything. Now we are back in the same situation. I hope she does not freeze to death but we cannot keep doing this. It may never change but it is easier if she is not in our life (hard to admit this). For years I wanted a daughter that was "normal" like others. I have accepted this will probably never happen. If she wants to get serious therapy, I will pay for every bit of it. Unfortunately she denies there is anything wrong with her and that we are the ones who need intense therapy since we messed up her whole life and made her an addict.
Sometimes you have to say "enough is enough".
Helpful to hear others who have been able to be strong enough to say and do the same. This is very painful to do.

My heart goes out to you, jones54. You are strong and no, it's not easy. My experience is not exactly the same but my daughter's situation is tenuous. She could  be bankrupt and homeless in the new year... or not. She's finally realized there are no more Mom rescues and appears to be focused on a bf rescue which is always a possibility as she's very smart and attractive.  
You are generous to continue offering to help with therapy. I've stopped because my daughter blames me for everything, accepts no responsibility for her behaviour/choices/outcomes,  and is not interested in doing the work. She starts and stops. I've paid for inpatient (eating disorder and drugs) more than once and many years of out-patient. She starts and quits. The last go-round was again, short-lived so I'm done. If and when she wants to change her circumstances, she'll have to seek our public resources.
I honestly don't know what will happen and I'm ok with that. It's been a very long haul. Hard to believe I could put that in print but that's how I feel today.  
 

Jones, Beatrix & Tulipps

I am so glad to hear from you guys. It is comforting to know that there are more than two of us who have "had enough" and "are done".  It was the hardest thing in my life to admit and I have lost one son who died from a lung disease, so I know about doing the hard stuff. I spent 20 years trying to save his life.

To admit that we cannot do anything for our child with BPD or admit that we don't want them in our lives is harder that losing a child to death because it seems to be due to their choices.  Their continual, destructive, self-serving choices.

Mine is no longer out of control as far as I know, but has chosen to not allow me into her life for the past 14 years. She has chosen to not respond no matter what I have done to contact her. She no longer needs me as she has all the wealth and security life could possibly give her now.

Her destructive ways must have reduced but her self-serving, cold heart and lack of empathy have not.

So, I am done. Our stories are all different but a lot of us are now reaching the same conclusion.

Thank you all for responding.

PS I believe she doesn't want contact because I know the things she has done in the past and she can't risk the wealth and security she has now, by having me in her life and the chance that any of that will be mentioned.

She has re-invented herself as a wealthy, sensible, perfect mother and wife.

Hi jones, thanks soo much for posting! I have some questions if you have the time or inclination to answer one or any of them even if in the briefest way possible:

1. I'm sure you've thought about this a lot so I'll ask: Do you think that BPD in its worst form lends itself to heroin abuse? I've had a sneaking suspicion for a while that if they allow themselves to be introduced to it, escaping its clutches will be more difficult for them than other disorders. I also wonder whether marijuana might act in their brain as "heroin lite." I'd love to see a study done on the diagnoses before addiction of those who become addicted to heroin. My gut tells me it would be BPD, ADHD, anxiety disorders, and major depressive disorder, but I wonder if there's a common neurological problem among these folks.

2. Do you ever get the feeling that if you'd done what I'm suggesting earlier, i.e., cut off the support, say anywhere between the ages of 18 and 25, that the outcome would've been different, or was she already an addict by then anyway? And thinking outside of your situation, do you think it could help to set the boundaries the moment they become an adult or that it just doesn't matter?

3. Do you have any "sneaking suspicions" of your own about this disorder and what you think could have helped?

4. Do you really think therapy would help at this point? Do you think it might've helped earlier?

Thanks so much for answering if you have time!

Tulipps, thanks for posting!

In your heart of hearts, do you really think that therapy could work even if she went faithfully? My guess is that even the absolute best therapy available with the absolute best therapists probably only works (and by "works" I mean the result of treatment is real progress to the point behavior changes and stabilizes and the patient is able to live *independently* and somewhat happily for life) 10-20% of the time. I believe it can absolutely help *your relationship* with your child as long as you also change your own behavior to suit your child and continue to basically take care of them for life, probably with a success rate more around 60%, but to me that is not success. And the monetary cost of this would be prohibitive—$100,000 for one year of treatment would, in my estimation, be on the low side. A single month of inpatient at McLean, Silver Hill, or Sheppard Pratt costs between $40,000 and $60,000 and is not covered by insurance. So, that's not practical. This is why I'm appalled at the the mental health profession for selling what I believe to be snake oil. You end up with all these traumatized parents who believe that there's some holy grail out there that can cure their kids if only they had the money for it or if only their kid would go do it.

You said: "I honestly don't know what will happen and I'm ok with that. It's been a very long haul. Hard to believe I could put that in print but that's how I feel today. "

Good! I'll be here to remind you that it's okay to feel that way whenever you need it.

Hey Flossy, when you said that your daughter "has re-invented herself as a wealthy, sensible, perfect mother and wife," the first thought I had was "Just like Meghan Markle," who I'm assuming is a BPD club member given her ridiculous use of suicide threats, estrangement from her own family, insistence on her husband estranging himself from his own family to side with her, and the obvious destructive force she's had on their lives. Interesting that she supposedly idolized Princess Diana, the model of a beautiful posh pwBPD. Very beautiful and/or privileged women with BPD should really be studied separately. It's such an interesting route that they take. I'd love to see a separate thread for those of you with such daughters/wives/mothers/sisters/friends explore it.

Leaf -

You asked if I believed therapy would help my daughter. There have been times I'd say yes. Now I'm not sure, especially since learning a few months ago that she quit weekly sessions because she wouldn't take suicide off the table and declared,  "there's nothing wrong with me... I just had a bad boyfriend.

I also want to respond to your questions/comments re participation on this thread. (and by the way, I'm also not on social media and am unaware of other BPD family-type chat sites).  A few thoughts...

I’m really generalizing, but it’s my opinion there are three groups (or emotional stages) of parents with adult BPD children who participate in some way on this forum:
1.   Those just realizing that something is truly “off” with their loved one
2.   Roller-coaster riders (typically mothers) trying to communicate effectively, engaged in counselling and doing what they can to help their adult child in spite of being the frequent target of verbal abuse, financial strain and increasing isolation. Suicide threats and other unrelenting crises are the order of the day.   
3.   Those who have hit a wall and stopped helping adult child who is unable or unwilling   (depending on your subscribed school of thought) to take responsibility for behaviour/choices/outcomes. Parent shifts focus to their own personal health and well being. 

After spending MANY years in group 2, I am firmly in group 3. Since your thread asks specifically about stopping help, I suspect (assuming here) that most readers are in group 2 or 3. Comments suggest to me that there are some in group 3 that might still be dragging a foot in group 2.

Let's face it - everyone is different and let's all assume that there is plenty going on behind the scenes. Some people are more comfortable reading that sharing. Not everyone wants advice, especially advice that feels absolute. Someone made what felt like a judgmental comment on an early post of mine and I retreated for months!

I participate in spurts. If something is going on personally that prompts me to question my feelings or approach, I'll drop in for some reading, perspective, and yes, validation. That's how I first found this thread.

As for ongoing input - I can't promise. Too many years worrying!  Trying to control what I couldn't and prevent what I shouldn't! Clearly I still have emotional stuff to resolve and there's a benefit to written expression and exchange... but it's not an ongoing research project for me. What you're doing is amazing but I might be finished at some point.

hi Tulipps,
My husband and I have hit a wall and we are at step 3 (for now) with my sBPD step daughter.

I guess it's been pretty quiet because she disowned us.  I don't have anything really to share, we have no idea what's going on.  We do wonder and miss the grandkids (she has two girls) who are toddlers. 

I don't think she is suicidal, but don't really know for sure, but she possibly has something I heard described elsewhere as Ficticious disorder.  At 24 years of age, she thought she had thyroid cancer and even implied they were running tests before her second child was born.  This was a two year ordeal, I spent a lot of time worrying about her, texting her to followup and asking "how did the last dr appt go?"  that sort of thing.  A lot of the text convos between her and her Dad (before she disowned us) were about her health worries, or she needed the constant validation that she is good at her job.  Sometimes she'd just text a pic of a wad of cash to her dad and brag "this is what I made this weekend," that sort of thing.  This doesn't sound too bad, I know, but the holidays when she came to our house and was dysregulated were the troubling thing.  She always had to launch the family into a discussion about her Mom (my husband's ex wife) who she "has never gotten along with."  So many tears, so much pain, such a broken irrepairable relationship.  I a lot of times was at a loss for words...I mean, who wants to bad mouth your spouse's ex ALL day, on Thanksgiving?  I felt like my husband's ex was in our house when she showed up, it's all we talked about some days.

I relate the most to LivednLeared's posts about getting some calm, about getting clear on can I really validate?  My step daughter treats me like a stink bug.  I have seen an actual physical recoiling, if I'm not imagining it...  If she's not looking at her shoes instead of in my eyes like a normal person when we're talking, she also sometimes physically appears like it hurts her to look at me.  I have tried to get close to her emotionally, and get the impression it is painful for her based on her words and non verbal communication.  At some point, perhaps like when trying to get clues from a person with aspergers/autism, we kind of give up?  At least that's what I think is going on.  I could just be a crappy stepmom (not like I have done this before with an adult kid, tried to parent them).

My husband's phone dinging all night long on his bedstand and waking me up has stopped.  What a relief.  She raged at us once (him a lot more before we met and married) and that is all now in our rear view mirror.  I guess I'm here mostly because I don't know what happens next.  I like reading the stories because maybe I'm mentally preparing for what might happen next?  BPD's typically do reestablish contact (at least my mom never stopped trying) after discarding you.

I feel for all parents going through this, and yes, we have stopped Helping and it's now just a feeling of emptiness for what could of been, and was lost, after the mourning phase. 

b

Tulipps! All I can say is thank you so much for participating at all! If you are finished, so be it. I'm just happy to have any input at all—seriously, I mean *at all.* Please don't feel like I'm putting pressure on you, but if you have an insight into anything at all, I'd love to hear it. I hang on y'all's every word. I think we could all really benefit from an ongoing informal research project, but that's just my opinion.

You said: "Let's face it - everyone is different and let's all assume that there is plenty going on behind the scenes. Some people are more comfortable reading than sharing."

Absolutely. Believe me, I KNOW. Having run a very large women's interest site and its message boards before the onsite of social media, I'm very familiar with the behavior of lurkers. I also know that they'll get a lot more out of the experience if they participate.

You said: "Not everyone wants advice, especially advice that feels absolute."

Of course not. Advice is for sale. If you want it, take it. If not, leave it on the shelf.

You said: "Someone made what felt like a judgmental comment on an early post of mine and I retreated for months!"

I get this. I'm not like that, I think obviously, but I understand those who are. All I can say is that it's very important to be able to accept having your beliefs challenged in a way that's supposed to help you and still be able to retain your sense of self. If you are here and posting, I will treat you as a close friend with whom I would be honest and hope that you would expect nothing less.

Yep. My daughter is beautiful. Beautiful, elegant, seemingly down-to-earth, yet posh. She even took on her in-laws' South African accent and style of speech, within a year of her marriage. She totally changed her clothing style and became just like Nicole Kidman in Stepford Wives.

Megan Markle definitely displays BPD and so did Diana.
Angelina Jolie, Drew Barrymore, possibly Kirsten Dunst.
I might start a thread on that. I think it could be helpful for people to see the traits displayed by celebrities.

hi again Leaf56,
I was also wanting to reread your posts on this thread, in particular, because I wanted to put some more thought into my reply instead of just replying quickly.

It sounds like a terrifying situation with your son.  I might be reading you wrong, but I sense you're worried?  Please correct me if I'm off the mark here.  Or is it perhaps another emotion, or maybe just detachment you're at?  We do suffer real burnout, I think, going through all the challenges our BPD's present us.  Sometimes what I'm typing sounds incredulous, even to me.  I wonder, who would even believe this?  Well, that's why this board exists, cause we here get it.

[Thanks again board creators!]

You may have been the person that suggested to me to read the book the Gift of Fear?  If so, thank you, it helped me a lot.  It's still helping me.

The book describes what I do, which is worry.  Worry or anxiety is not Fear, it is a choice.

I really like the suggestions given in the book for why I choose to do this, cause I want a homework assignment and I want to work towards less anxiety (who doesn't?):

Worry is a way to avoid change...
Worry is a way to avoid admitting powerlessness..
Worry is a cloying way to have connection with others...[this is what I do, I worry about my stepdaughter's health but worrying is not the same as love, or Radical acceptance, which is needed if she is in fact BPD]
Worry is a protection against future disappointment...


Guess that last one sums up why I'm here.  So my goal is to be here less.  Or more specifically, if I do come to be less in the anxious mindset.  Does this make sense?

b

So I'm not done yet lol.
What I tried to articulate, poorly, is that while we're all experiencing similar turmoil, there's no fast-track from what I call group 1 to group 3. That's where we all have our own story and our own circumstances that will dictate how we react and respond to our family member.
Certain advice might be hard to hear and might just come at the wrong time.
Speaking personally, I got sucked in repeatedly when my daughter pushed various manipulation buttons... just one more chance... this time it's different, etc. 
Should I have shut down the bank of Mom years ago? Of course! If I'd had that kind of advice sooner, was I ready to act? No.
I feel tremendous empathy for newbies on this site who feel helpless and don't know what to do. It's both crushing and reassuring to start reading other posts and realize that you're not alone in the chaos. Hopefully with enough information, others can move sooner to get their lives back. 
 
And Beatricex - I understand  mourning the loss of what could have been. Radical acceptance is tough.

Tulipps,

You said: "So I'm not done yet" and I said, "Yay!"

You said: "What I tried to articulate, poorly, is that while we're all experiencing similar turmoil, there's no fast-track from what I call group 1 to group 3."

But see, I DID fast-track from group 1 to group 3 after a just few days of reading here and asking a few questions, like "Are there any success stories?" and getting no responses. It was like lightning how fast I understood that no, there aren't any success stories (at least as I define success as I enumerated in other posts) and that pwBPD do not really ever get better and the only thing you can do is save yourself and your other loved ones and the faster you do that the better. You can also throw thousands (sometimes hundreds of thousands) of dollars down the drain following the snake-oil salesman/mental health professionals and end up with the same result. I started this thread because I still do wonder whether or not if you specifically do not help from as early an age as possible, and do it consistently without exhibiting guilt about it to your child, whether that might somehow help, and that is what I'm still experimenting with.

You said: "Certain advice might be hard to hear and might just come at the wrong time."

Of course, and that's why I've tried to stick to just my thread because I've found that when I don't it usually ends badly. Sorry, M-T!

I am no contact with my DIL, nothing else is possible.
She has asked via my son to resume a relationship with me and I have said no.

Leaf56, I’m curious to know if you’ve ever read Games People Play by Eric Berne? If not then I think it may be right up your alley.