BPDFamily.com

Happy New Year, bpdfamily!  :wee:

Just wanted to offer a brief update on MIL. Last time I posted, she'd broken her ankle. She successfully avoided physically therapy, went home too soon and ten days after breaking her ankle, broke her wrist, landing her back in the hospital for surgery. She is now in assisted living where she is getting physical therapy and medical care.

Last week her cousin visited all day. The next day the cousin tested positive for Covid, and the day following, MIL tested positive for Covid.

We received an urgent call from H's D29 yesterday morning saying she was going to get granny and bring her home, that granny could stay with them. H pointed out that she had Covid, D29 said she didn't care. She and her fiance both work in medical fields, they only have one room upstairs, and the night before, they'd gotten drunk and she had punched someone in the face. I'm thankful for all D29 has done to help out so far, but busting out granny and taking her there was a HORRIBLE scenario.

Huge positive #1:  H observed on his own that when MIL was upset, she didn't call him, she called people she could wrap up into her emotion. He has been the level head and voice of reason through all of this (wow, because that's not been the case before). H called MIL and amidst her tears and denial ("I don't have Covid") and refusal to understand she might infect other people, he talked her down from the ledge. She is staying at the facility to quarantine, thank goodness.

Daughter and dad are being triangulated and might end up pitted against each other, so this will get interesting.

MIL is in a wheelchair and in a boot, is still trying to avoid getting physical therapy at all costs, complaining to anyone who will listen that she gets breakfast too late, medicine not at all, no one helps her charge her phone, she hates it there. She won't ask anyone for help and complains when they don't offer it. She insists she got Covid from the assisted living facility, not her cousin. She's upset because she can't get the McDonald's coffee she likes. For sure, feeling sick makes anyone feel worse. She's had the vaccine and the booster and so far it's been a very mild case of Covid. We are coordinating deliveries of coffee and we're sending fun care packages with snacks that she can open.

Huge positive #2: H agreed with me yesterday that his mom is insecure and afraid all the time and because of that, has really hurt me and others, even family that have tried to help her through the last few weeks. He agreed that she could sometimes see she had hurt people but she was not self-aware enough to understand the problem so as to avoid doing it again. He said he understood why my boundaries were in place. I am still guarded, as his realizations are a bit cyclical, but each time they come with more clarity and confidence...so I'll take it.

Happy New Year PJ!  :wee:

I've been thinking about you lately.  Thanks for the update.

This made me laugh.  Love the dry humour.  At some point, she will undoubtedly finangle to work you into her triangle again, but you are too smart for that.  Possibly she's resorted to triangulating father and daughter because you refused to participate in her triangles...

Her attitude to PT was predictable.  This was exactly my mom, which is what got her to where she is today: weak, decrepit, helpless without support, and always a victim.  The perfect waif.

Awesome on the positives! |iiii

I was always hopeful that with you at his side, your H would find his way to some level of clarity.  I used to be your H (enmeshed), a long time ago.  Two factors stick out in my mind for the penny finally dropping and me finding clarity.  One was my husband's voice always recognizing how much "attention" my mom needed. So much of her behavior was "attention seeking".  Other behaviors were "neediness".  Both requiring "attention" but in different ways.  His broken record (for decades probably) echoing "she does it for attention" made a difference. The second thing was my counsellor saying "why not" when I said I could never take a holiday with H and children at Christmas because I couldn't leave my mom at Christmas.  I was flabbergasted (gobsmacked) that she couldn't see what was wrong with this.  She stuck to her guns and challenged me like a pro.  

H and T have helped me find a path to recognize what is "normal", and what I can and can't do within my own values and societal expectations, which is a much different "normal" then what my mother taught me, when it comes to caretaking her. 

It's hard to differentiate from a parent we are enmeshed with, but it sounds like your H has made monumental steps forward.  That is truly great news.  

Very wise.  |iiii

Hi PJ,

That's quite the update, I must say! Yet I can recall how my uBPDm went from crisis to crisis too and pulled us all in. It was always difficult to know when it was truly an emergency and when it wasn't. Somehow my mom was a magnet to attract problems and drama. As an adult child, it took me a very long time to decrease the drama in my own life. It had become such a 'normal' part of my life that I didn't even realize it. Now I do much better and enjoy a much less complicated life. It's amazing how a pwBPD can affect everyone.

 :hug:
Wools

M, the perfect waif, indeed. Sometimes, in my head, I slow clap at the dramatic presentations. It really helps to hear the two things that kind of made the difference for you. And I'm not sure how I would have made this much progress without you all cheering me on and providing guidance. For it all, thank you.

Wools, it's been really fascinating to watch my H stay calm through all of this. He wasn't at all calm when the conflict was between MIL and me, so this is new. What you said makes me wonder if the drama feels normal to him, maybe he feels a comfort level when there is some kind of drama. On the flip side, he can definitely operate really well under pressure.

Thanks for the update PJ.  How is the triangulation going with D29?  Anything "interesting" yet?

So pleased that your husband is expressing more and more clarity about his Mom.

Best,

FF

Thanks for asking FF. I've only seen a hint: MIL finally came home two days ago. D29 was taking care of her dog. When the dog came home, MIL reported to H that something was wrong, the dog was out of sorts and snapping at everyone. H mentioned it to D29 and she got really defensive, saying it wasn't her, she hadn't done anything.

H has been very attentive to all MIL's needs and everyone is doting on her. She thrives when it's like this. In a few weeks as she gets stronger and people go back to their regular lives we will see more dysregulation.

As the world turns...

You inspire us all with your determination and follow through on setting healthy boundaries with your husband and MIL. Healthy boundaries are healthy for everyone including the dysfunctional people who constantly test boundaries.

z, that means more than you know. I couldn't have made it through some really difficult times without you all here.

I am cheering for you and so proud of the work you have done.

When you reflect back on the person you were prior to BPDfamily...can you list out what you think are the major changes you have made?

Best,

FF

FF, that's an interesting question. In short, I think the most valuable lesson  learned here was to stay in my lane, even when others were asking me (or goading me) to step into theirs. The most helpful definition of boundaries was not keeping other people out, but keeping myself in my yard.

Grief kept me stuck for a while - grief that I would have to live with this the rest of my life, that MIL wouldn't ever change, that H would ever really understand the harm he was causing.

Quick update: MIL is now home, sans doggo who is going from family member to family member. She continues to be dissatisfied and create drama. The latest is that the property management company who recently increased her rent by $450 a year (which is legit super crappy) also "stole her routing number off her checks and set her up for automatic payments" last November. She says she created a user and password when she moved in, but insists she didn't set up auto payments. She's talking about hiring an attorney. H is also upset and getting involved, calling the landlord, etc. (I can't quite figure out why she is just now discovering this 3 months later.)

I asked H if she was still getting physical therapy. He said yes, but he didn't know how often, which I found really odd. They talk every day, sometimes twice a day. It seems he'd know every part of this.

I want to run this past those of you with BPD parents - H has always been into fitness but he has been obsessing over his latest diet/fitness kick. At a time when his mom is in distress, emergency after emergency, I find it curious that he is this wrapped up in self-improvement. It almost seems he's trying not to lose himself in his mom's issues. Does this ring true?

Also, H mentioned again that he thought his mom should find an apartment in our city and move here. I pointed out again that we would be become her one and only support system, and if something happened to him, it would be left to me. He said he had thought of that, but by the time that happened his 15 year old would have his driver's license and could go see her.

?

I can't figure out if he is just talking, or if he would really do that. I don't understand how he thinks moving her here is in her best interests, especially after having 10-15 family members that live in her current city step up and help out.

Couple of quick thoughts...

First, what a great clarification for the group here --


Thinking about "what's mine? what's not?", while a helpful lens, could lead to a lot of focus on The Other Person and What They Are Doing. Kudos for taking personal responsibility for your own life and your own choices in a healthily "fenced" way  |iiii  It sounds like you're allowing yourself to manage your own stuff and declining to manage others' "stuff".


DH's kids' mom has many BPD traits and married someone with many NPD traits  :(  I have found that an intense focus on an interest or hobby, especially one with tangible implications (i.e. not just watching movies or reading, but one involving life changes) is really soothing and distracting from all the PD chaos. Let's just say that I've enjoyed disaster preparedness and first aid training WAAAAYYYY more than some people, partly for the distraction and partly because in comparison to PDs, 1st aid/CPR/emergency response is SO manageable.

So that part rings true -- focusing on a tangible-impact hobby is a really nice break from PD craziness.

...

Quick thought on this:


What do you think would happen if you said something like "Tell me more about how you see that playing out"? You're not committing to it, and you're testing the waters to see if, like you're wondering, he's just talking (in which case, there might not be a specific answer), or, if he is actually planning this.

Hi PJ,

I wanted to respond to this question you have:

I can only speak for myself, but I think it's not common just for myself as a child of an uBPDm.  When I encounter a time of constant drama going on around me, something that I seemingly can't escape with constant demands on me, my body wants to move, to somehow deal with the giagantic unsettled feeling that has me all tied up in knots inside. It's not a conscious mind thing, but rather a deep urge that I must get outside and walk and be in nature or be physically active using my large muscle groups. My T has repeatedly encouraged me to listen to my body, and to give my body what it is asking for. I'm not a runner, but sometimes I wish I was because I so badly want to run and run. I used to ride my bike for miles and miles. It was to get away from my mom and her never ending lists of jobs to do. Somehow it helps to burn off the pent up energy that's bottled up inside me. My T has pointed out how smart Lil Wools was to know that she needed to help herself (even when she didn't know it) by escaping the house and being physically active and out around our farm animals. That was long, long before I had any idea what BPD was.

I believe this goes back to the book, The Body Keeps the Score. What I don't remember consciously, my body remembers physically in some way.

 :hug:
Wools

Super helpful suggestion to invite more conversation, Kells, and conversation led by him, which is important. I'll tuck this away.

His general tone so far has been a helpless, "What else am I supposed to do? We don't have any other option." When I mention options, he says, "Mom won't go for that." He talks about feeling guilty that others are helping out. He repeats that 'you don't abandon your parents, it's just not something you do.' He seems to feel tormented by guilt, but lately, I don't see him rushing to be with her every moment or meeting her every need. Maybe part of him doesn't WANT to be the sole caretaker he feels pressured to be?

The trick is letting him be where he is, because if I push, all blame will eventually fall on me.


I'm super impressed with Lil Wools, too.  :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: Spending time with animals is also very healing. I've heard of this book and have wanted to check it out, it's so interesting to me that trauma manifests physically.

Makes sense that he would feel the urge to obsess over this right now. I'm happy he is. I don't think he's able to process his intense emotions so it's a great way for him to find a measure of relief. Heck I'm going through a lot with my kids and have upped crossfit to 5 times a week - it's been a lifesaver. My curiosity is piqued because the timing seems 'selfish' by his definition. He's always stated that he would 'be there' for his mom, come hell or high water. He is driving up to see her on Thursday to take her to a Dr appt. Normally he'd talk about how worried he was about the appt, she expected bad news, she needed help running errands, how much he looked forward to spending alone time with her. This time he's only stressing about how he's going to keep up with his diet and workouts that day. Overall, I'm sensing a shift from the "I'm the devoted son/mom's my best friend/I will always be there for her/mom's a saint/so worried about her" that I've heard up until now.

He's at a different place than he was. He seems to be fighting a battle.  

I'm wondering if "helpless" and "abandon" are two words for you to focus on...perhaps to actually bring up.

"Hey Babe...did I hear you correctly that you are worried about abandoning your Mom?"

the channel the thought of letting him lead the conversation, you can hope in with questions here and there.

Best,

FF

Good thoughts, FF. Thanks.

From my perspective as a woman, I find it very hard to understand how enmeshed men can sometimes be with their mothers. In dysfunctional families, when the mother is either single or has a bad relationship with her children's father or has BPD etc., than the son is oftentimes groomed in many ways to be a substitute husband for the wife. My brothers moved away from home for college and then came back to live with my mother with BPD when they were in their forties and never left (never married and mom had terrible things to say about every single girlfriend), despite how badly they were treated by mom. The pain of supposedly abandoning mom, is deep and there is tremendous guilt. I am wondering if it would help to compliment your husband on the good things he has done for others, including the things he has helped his mother with that our genuinely nice and not dysfunctional.

If and when your H gets to a point of talking about the logistics of exactly what needs to be done to "help" her, you can work with him on all the various tasks that are being done now (and who is doing them), what is expected to be done in future (believe me, it gets more intense), and what he assesses he can do in his current situation (i.e., without depending on you).

I think those of us with BPD mothers can relate to the struggle. The principle- "you don't abandon an elderly parent" is a strong value. However when the parent is abusive or doesn't respect boundaries it sort of becomes a struggle with that value because. "Abandoning a parent"- this isn't something I ever wanted to do, and wished to not do, but in a way, I have abandoned her. It's not something I feel good about, but to "not abandon" her required accepting how she treats me. It would actually be abandoning myself. That may sound selfish, but it's a constant struggle to keep any boundaries with her and she's cruel, and emotionally abusive, and manipulative when I am with her and it is upsetting.

While my first reaction to mother's statement that she and your H have agreed she's moving in with you, ( without your agreement ) would have been to turn to H and say "I'll be right back with your clothes, and you can move in with your mother" I know that would play into their drama triangle. I agree this is his struggle, but on the other hand, I think he'd default to as much as you allow his enmeshment with mother. It would be easier if he could appease you both. But momma's not going to give here and it's harder for him to say no to her than to you, because of how she reacts.

Actually the dynamics were similar with my family. Saying no to BPD mom is very difficult, as her behavior when she doesn't get her way is difficult to deal with. On the other hand, I don't react that way, and my parents had more control over my behavior. So Dad would mostly say no to me, even if the request was reasonable, even if he would have wanted to say yes, but he'd default to saying no to me, but in summary, the default was that, given the choice of upsetting one of us, he'd choose the less stressful path - and that was me.

I wonder if you are, to your H, the easier one to be able to disappoint. Not because he doesn't love you- he does. He surely wants his marriage and for you to be happy, but these triangles are so tough and divisive. And you care about him and are sympathetic to him, so he feels safer with you. I can also relate because, setting boundaries with my mother is difficult.

z, I think you're right that the grooming with men is different. Is it just me or is it harder for sons to break away? Thanks for this insightful suggestion. His guilt really does hurt the respect he has for himself, so reminding him of all the good he's done for his mom and for others in equally difficult positions is effective. I'll make an effort to keep doing this.


GaGrl, such a practical suggestion. I'm going to start making lists of all the things that people are doing for her now to prep. So helpful to have folks like you, Methuen and Notwendy here that are further along than we are.


Well put. I hear echoes of the same sentiments in so many others here. It's heartbreaking when people make decisions that have consequences, but you love them and it's hard to watch them deal with those consequences.

And it's not fair to you. You want to take care of her. The limitations are there because of her behavior, and that's sad.


hahahaaa I wish! :) I didn't think that fast. I exhibited shock, confusion then frustration and a few hot tears...normal reactions but also blood in the water, so sharky-shark kept at it.


He is definitely trying to appease us both right now. I wasn't necessarily easy to disappoint. I made him pretty miserable when he refused to set boundaries with his mom. Lordy I can dig my heels in sometimes.

Since, I've backed off and stayed out of it. I do not offer to help her, or him. He manages communication and visits. I accompany him for special visits like birthday/Christmas and am polite. I am trying to stay consistent. I would not magically jump in to 'serve' if she moved here.

It's been hard for me, and she's not even my mom - must be so much harder for children with BPD parents. Not helping goes against my grain. For years I tried to be helpful, loving, bring thoughtful gifts, paint, tile, clean, accommodate whatever she needed. It's almost like that level of love and affection is painful for people with BPD. Maybe they're so afraid to lose it, they can't actually appreciate having it.


Not fair. This makes me upset for Little Notwendy.

Clarifying that the incident with MIL announcing she was moving in happened in 2019. That, and H's horrible behavior towards me after landed us in marriage counseling. It's taken us this long to get back to some kind of stability and understanding.

This is another level. Can you imagine risking your marriage to appease a mother? I agree with NotWendy that PJ is probably the safer person to cross but still... His life should be his own close family, the one he built for himself, so to even think of putting this at risk for his mother, the enmeshment must be very solid. I wonder what is going on there.

Like Zachira said, the enmeshment does seem more brutal for men with a BPDmother. My father told me recently how I just knew something was wrong with BPDm and decided to leave as soon as the option came up. He says it is part of being a daughter. A daughter has to "fight" a mother and will biologically strive to do so. While technically, a man will biologically "fight" a father and might feel a role of protector toward his mother. Maybe biology itself makes it more difficult for men to stand up to their uBPDm?

I see it in both my brothers... Their abuse was different than mine. She didn't treat us the same way at all. I needed to help, clean, cook supper, diner, be good but not more good than her. There was a competition underlying our relationship.

For my brothers... She was their servant. But there were emotional ties. My oldest brother told me recently he felt like he had to be her boyfriend sometimes. He took care of her like an adult man. He is now married and he doesn't talk to her much, but he never was able to uphold boundaries toward her. He would drive two hours during a snowstorm the second she had a crisis moment, and he asked her a couple times to move closer to him. So while he gives the impression of being healthily distanced from her, I don't think he is entirely.

My other brother just recently tried to go back to live with her and I got in his way. It would be a long story, but I am glad I did. He was mad at me for three days, but at least now he is in his own home and there is a bit more hope for his future this way than in her basement, because this is where he was going back.

There is also some kind of jealousy between my brothers. The oldest abused the youngest when he was a teenager out of jealousy and uBPDm never stepped in to correct the situation.

They are both very protective of her... And they don't talk to each other. She makes sure the youngest won't talk to the oldest, who is still hoping to get his brother back. But as long as she lives, it won't happen. The oldest deceived her at one point when he stopped talking to her, he realized the abuse and took a couple years "off", he also got closer to my father (not his father), and it really rubbed her the wrong way. She tightened the grasp on the youngest, and she puts oil on the fire everytime the oldest is mentioned. She used the whole incident to her advantage, to create a huge dent in my father and brothers' relationship. She is such a hypocrite... I can't believe I didn't see all that sooner.

But as hard as it was for me to see all that, it seems to be even harder for my brothers.

rw,  :cursing: no she's not living with us.

In 2014, we got married and she was cute and quirky and we planned to move in together. The 3 month house search was enough to tell me that was a bad, bad idea. She is the one that called it off.

By 2016, H agreed with me that she'd never move in with us. I found out later that he never told HER that, he was still leading her on.

She announced she would move in in 2019. I realized the depth of their issues and found a marriage counselor who told me MIL likely has BPD.

We've had ups and downs since. H seems to finally have accepted that I will have really firm boundaries with MIL. Where before he pushed some of her care onto me, he has shouldered it with a happy face...but her care (and her emotions) are getting intense. My gut tells me H feels increasing pressure.

He makes offhand comments about looking for an apartment for her in the city where we live. I suspect he's just saying that to fulfill the role of dutiful son while he hopes another option will become available. Or maybe he's testing the water to see how I respond?

I think the competitive thing also applies to me and my MIL, rw. Since we started dating, it's been one weird power move after another, positioning herself as the priority, like they together were accepting me. When I didn't play along, she got got weird-friendly with H's ex-wife, who she hated. So weird, but I ignored it and she eventually quit. H still kisses his mom on the lips - that might be ok if it was a cultural or family thing, but no one else in their family does that. So many eewww moments.

Y'alls stories of your pwBPD pitting one family member against another is just unreal, and so incredibly sad. H's only brother committed suicide 20 years ago. His dad passed away 10 years ago. I've always thought their passing made it worse because H feels all the pressure. On the other hand, you're making me realize that MIL could very well have been using them as leverage, which might have made it worse.

BPD is sad-making, isn't it?

You know PJ, reading you actually made me think of my sister in law...

I recently told my brother that she is the one I feel the most for, after realizing my mother is BPD. When I was part of the abuse triangle, she was basically the scape goat. My uBPD loved talking against her, and saying how a bad spouse and a bad mother she was. She hates her and always comments on how she thinks my brother and her won't last. And every decision she makes is scrutinized and analyzed and questioned. It is just weird that she focuses so much on her.

I took part in the abuse sometimes, other times I defended sis-in-law. But the cost of defending her often wasn't worth it and it's not like I was close with her either.  I stayed low profile but certainly didn't extend sympathies toward her... Like I said, the cost would have been too high.

The thing is, she was different from us, she wasn't part of the abuse triangle, so she became the main target. My uBPDm made her cry more than once, and worked very hard to create a wedge between her grand children and their mother. She is still at it, saying thing to my nephew like : "your mother prefers your sister, she doesn't love you as much." Thankfully, nephew took it upon himself to tell his parents about it!  The kind of rotten seeds she is putting in his head. It's disgusting...

And the only thing sis in law did wrong, is she came to dinners, and cleaned afterward... Truly, she was always respectful and while we are different, she certainly never deserved all this hate.

With time, she got defensive around all of us... And it stands to reason. I just hope it is not too late for me to make amends and develop a healthy relationship with her. We don't have to be close, but I at least would like her to feel comfortable around me. I promised myself I would have her back when I last talked with my brother, and I will.

I hope you have some allies in your in-laws family. Else, I really feel for you. Having to share your husband with a nest of vipers is... Urgh. No words, it just must be a lot.

Also, the kissing on the lips thing... It happened once with one of my ex boyfriends, that his mom kissed him on the lips... Yes, it is repulsive. Ewww indeed ! lol

Not fair. This makes me upset for Little Notwendy.

Thanks, it wasn't fair, but it was all I knew in my family. As a teen, my self esteem was low. School was my happy place. I had friends, people liked me for me. I would come home to a different world.

I can see how Dad didn't want to upset her or me. I am her scapegoat child. She didn't like that I was closer to my father. She probably didn't like anyone being close to my father. Like your situation, they can not distinguish between different forms of love. Your H can love his mother and he can love you. One doesn't negate the other. A parent can love their child and their spouse, but I guess not in the emotions of a pw BPD where love for a parent or child, or spouse if it's a BPD parent must be some sort of competition.

He had to default to her to avoid issues. It was her side or my side in her world.

Yes, I know it's hard to think of what to say in the moment, and the things I thought when I read your post are things one probably shouldn't say!

I think the hardest thing for him is being the bad guy. Dad didn't want to be the bad guy either as he did try to please us both. However, if I say no to BPD mom, I am the bad guy. I recently did say no to her moving near me. Even the idea of that - I could not even sleep at night when she brought it up, I was so stressed. And the idea of saying no to her was stressful too. Yes, she got mean, very mean, with intent to hurt. This is who she is. I don't want to hurt her feelings but I am not abusive to her. She's the one who sees a boundary that way and yet, somehow she seems it's OK to be emotionally and verbally abusive to me.

I'm convinced mothers' grooming their sons is different.  Psych's would have theories.  I think the mother-son enmeshment is far more complicated than a mother-daughter, which is hopelessly complicated enough...
 
PJ?  Are you opening the door to that boundary just a little, or...?

Let me just say, that as much as you know and have experienced, I think the "living in" effects, would very quickly go to what you currently know as the "worst its ever been", to X10, to X100 to X1000 to ... in a very abbreviated period of time (less than you think - probably days after the initial honeymoon period).  The reason is because there is never any space, or release, and the pwBPD has ZERO ability to self-regulate.  And, then there is no exit strategy from that situation.  I have a picture in my mind of a ship in the middle of the ocean, with no lifeboats...  I would suggest deciding soon if that is a firm boundary for you or not...because your H will pick up on it...the "if she ever moved here" part (or anything else) is really easy to pick up on.  Even if she's not "moving in", but "moving to", well, it's all been too much for me (we live in the same town), and I've had open eyes and decent boundaries.  It doesn't sound like your H is there yet...

Ah yes.  On the one hand, they demand the attention. The attention from their chosen enmeshed person helps to fill up that emptiness inside of them.  The problem is the cause of the emptiness is never addressed or resolved, leaving a gaping hole in the bottom of their self, so all the attention given, just pours out the bottom.  It is never enough attention.  Further complicating this, the more attention we give them to please them, the more afraid they become of losing it, and that fear causes them to behave in incrementally worse ways that pushes loved one away.  IMHO, they also come to heavily "resent" the other person for all they do, and this builds to an immense crescendo as they age. My own mother is a "case" in point.  She idolizes the few people she knows who never married, and lived with their parent ("to take care of them").  She has made it clear her whole life that is what she would have liked from me.  In one of those mother-daughter couples, the mother passed away.  About a year later, the daughter committed suicide.  My mother romanticizes that.  It is sick.  Despite all I (and my H) have done and still do for my mother, the resentment of all we do (measured by her as love and affection) is stored until it blows out like lava in a volcanic eruption.  The "closer" the enmeshment relationship is, the worse the behavior becomes, is the pattern I've observed.  And the needs of aging just make it worse.

Boundaries is the only way to navigate all this.  

And yet, like has been said here, we all love our parent and share the value of helping and supporting them.  So really it's a clashing of two values: the value to respect our "self" and our own "wellness", and the value to "support the parent we still care for", despite all the abuse.

How is your H doing these days?  Sounds like his mother has been talking to him about moving to your city?  How do you feel about that?  Does this mean that she's "not getting enough attention" from the relatives close to her where she is living now?

Men process what they hear differently than women do. When men are criticized it can feel as badly as when a man hits a woman. Men often only retain what they hear from a woman for short periods of time. Men are often overwhelmed when a woman brings up past incidents. I have had many long intense conversations with my considerably younger male neighbor over the years. One day, I asked him to honestly tell me what he remembers about the conversations we have had over the years, and he told me not too much, just maybe the gist of the conversation. Men also like to do things more than they like to talk. The bottom line is it is important to err on the side of less talking with men, and to stick to what is recent and things they can relate to as being relevant right now.
Men are often brought up to be protective of their mothers. In some cultures, the love relationship is with the mother and not with the female partner.

Another factor that significantly contributes to the elder care dilemma is the "only child" situation. Several of us deal with that added responsibility. There literally is no other sibling to help.

Yep..that's me.  I'm lucky that wife and kids are very helpful because I don't really have other "extended family" that are available to pitch in.

I'm an only...my Mom was an only.

One idea.

Can you take the time to write out all the caregivers and friends and what role/how often they help out?

Sometimes getting "all the resources" down on a piece of paper (or digital) helps...

Note...recommend doing that privately first and post it here.

Best,

FF

FF, I'm an Only because my sister died of breast cancer in 1988, so it was many years of knowing it would be me. I was fortunate that my dad left my mom with the resources to have a CNA caregiver to help me. And BOTH my parents were Onlies, and my son is an Only. Weird, huh?

That's a good idea to write out and share here. Those of us caring for an elderly parent can probably add anything not listed, or that can be added as health eventually declines. It gets very intense.

Usually when I write it all out and can see it...a plan seems to pop out where you couldn't think of it before.

And then if you present all the options to others..they may ask questions or see possibilities that you never considered.

Hmm...ok, hopefully I won't get it too much trouble for a small thread hijack.

I'm an only, my mom is an only, my Dad had one older brother..who had two kids (my only first cousins).

So..my Dad's parents had 3 grandchildren. 

All three grandchildren became pilots and jumped out of airplanes.  It was later in life that my cousins and I kinda noticed that and were like...what kinda of stuff was Grandma and Grandpa teaching the family!  :)

Note...after about 12 jumps I never jumped again.  It was fun...but not that fun.

Both of my cousins are the type that have thousands of jumps and that's basically their social life.

OK..sorry PJ!  Hijack over...  hehe

Best,

FF

I think it is hard on an "only". Even if there are siblings- one of them can have the largest part of the care. If there's dysfunction, other siblings may have had more of the abusive behavior themselves, or be dysfunctional themselves. Even in a family that is relatively without it, location plays a part. Gender roles also may have an influence.

In our case, none of us live very close to BPD mom but I am the one who lives the closest.
However, I think we are all keeping the geographic distance because she's verbally and emotionally abusive much of the time. While there's the ethical struggle of the value of "caring for our parents" the other one is to "honor your parent". To be around her is a struggle emotionally because if any other person said these things to us, we would completely avoid them, or say something back to them that we'd not say to a parent. So we just keep our mouths shut while she calls us names,  or gets angry at us for something small, and for me, I am holding back tears. Since she is elderly, and she is my mother, I don't want to completely avoid her, but the only way we can manage a visit is with short ones and distance makes that possible. She either can't help herself or this is how she relates to us.

We have boundaries with her but to her, it seems they are a challenge because she pushes them, and it becomes a struggle. It's not a fair match ethically- she's my parent. The only way to deal with her is to be verbally harsh. She does back off when people do that, but I don't want to speak to her like that. It's tolerate her abusive behavior or keep a distance. Distance seems to be the better choice.

I've only accepted that legally, I can't forbid her from moving to the city we live in.

You nailed it with your analogy. It would go south within a week of her arrival here. Moving to our city is a very, very bad idea and I've told H that. I also know from experience that H hears (justifies) what he wants to, so this...

...is a great idea and something I need to address. Thoughts on how to word this as successfully as possible? I'm thinking about being clear about how I feel, my concerns, stating very clearly that I do not want her to move to our city based on my history with her, the fact that she's currently surrounded by family and receiving great care. And, if something happened to H, she and I would be alone here.

In the spirit of NOT making ultimatums, and thinking of z's comment about men taking action more than talking, I'm thinking of saying that if he wants her to move her despite how I feel, BEFORE he makes any decision, my condition is that he and I go to counseling together for a minimum of 6 months to talk through what it means, so that we can make a decision as a team. I also want to ask that we continue counseling twice a month for the first year that she lives here. Does that sound reasonable?

My counselor recommended that I make MIL successfully completing DBT therapy as a condition of moving here. That's another option.


I said "ew" out loud when I read that.


My MIL is on the edge, simmering, as evidenced by her recent bout of accusations that property mgmt stole the routing number off her checks.

I don't think H wants her here as much as he feels obligated to move her here. She wants sole access to him out of fear of abandonment, and she's also terrified of losing independence. She desperately wants to be told what to do, but she blames and finds fault with anyone who tells her what to do, and with anything she's told to do.

H, on the other hand, is obsessing over his most recent workout/diet regime. He talks about little else, even his mom. I ask how she is and he offers brief responses, which is unusual. I like that he is taking time to focus on himself, and I wonder what this escape means. I don't want to discover that they've been making plans to move her here and he's been hiding it from me.

It sounds like you have a hit a real deal breaker. You can't prevent your MIL from moving to where you live and if she does, it will likely be an absolute nightmare, possibly the end of your marriage.

I think the 6 months of couple counseling prior to the move or even prior to taking a decision is a great idea. Maybe this will suffice to make him drop the idea.

If not, then the DBT conditions is a great one. Might also stop the project in its toe, because I don't see her doing that...

And if she does... Then the continuing couple therapy coupled with the DBT might give you guys a fighting chance.

It is very competitive with MIL. When I wasn't satisfying her needs, she got really affectionate with H's ex wife, someone she hates. She even spent Christmas with her one year. Still makes me laugh. I didn't react so she quit. She is forever testing loyalty and pitting one family member against another.


I'm proud of you for saying no. How do pwBPD get away with going around and defining other people's goodness and badness? You're not a bad person for not wanting your mom to live near you. How do pwBPD get this kind of power and what's the antidote to this brand of poison?


It's hard to be an only surviving child of an aging parent. It's hard to be the only child that lifts a finger to help. It's hard to be the abused and alienated child that is forever scapegoated as not doing enough, and it's hard to be the golden child that is left with the full weight of expectation. And honestly, aging itself is not for the faint of heart. Aging and all that comes with it sucks, for everyone involved. There is loss in every stage.

This whole experience has made me reflect on the absolutely critical importance of healing. My mom is about 4 years younger than MIL, but you would think it was a 20 year gap if you saw them side by side. I don't want to age like MIL. I want to age with grace.  I want to heal and grow so that I can find joy where I am, in whoever is around me, even if I'm in *gasp* assisted living. I want to be a source of joy to others. The worst part of dealing with her aging is not her needs. It's her constant state of fear, panic and absolute misery because she never healed from trauma.  


Thanks for sharing this. MIL would say something rude, and H would say, "Just give it right back." No. I don't want to become her. I don't want to violate my values of respecting others, only to get her to back down until next time. I'll take the distance, thanks.

Also, 'just give it right back' wasn't a genuine invitation. I spoke up once and H got really angry with me. So, no. I'll take Distance for 500, Alex.

If she moves here it would likely be the end of our marriage.

I'm not convinced she will. H and I, despite everything, are in a good place. He has said that he understands why I have an issue with her, and accepts that, and the fact that his mom will never change. He's mentioned moving her here but it comes out in desperation, not actual plans.

I guess what I want to do is get ahead of potential knee-jerk reactions. I want to map out a plan with him. I can't force him to do anything, but I can use what I know to make wise, proactive decisions.

Thanks for your feedback. I'm on the same page so far.

PJ, I am still really bothered by this.  Are you aware if you have ever used this phrase with your H?  (..."if she ever moved here") The reason I ask is twofold.  (1) When I first read this, it reads to me as you  accepting this will  actually happen.  For some people, acceptance = approval.  Let's face it.  It's almost a given that is what MIL is going to want from her son.  Once they want something, they get it, or the person(s) who prevent it will go to MIL's special H_LL.  Your H wants to avoid that at all costs because he is terrified of her whether he is cognizant of this or not. To me the phrase reads like you've perhaps resigned yourself to it.  If you've said this to your H, guaranteed that as the son of a BPD mother, he will have picked up on it. That's how it reads to me - acceptance. Even if you don't mean it that way, it could be interpreted that way.  And even if you've had dozens of conversations about why it wouldn't be healthy for her to live close, that little phrase opens the door a lot. And he will know it. The second thing that concerns me is (2) I am in my own special H_LL navigating my mother 6 min away, and I have my eyes very wide open to her issues.  I don't defend her.  I don't make excuses for her.  I say it the way it is with my H.  And I have put up so many boundaries before the most recent one which is a "time" boundary I put in place by returning to work, despite being retired.  It's awful being near her.  While she doesn't "control" me, she has huge influence over the life and everyday choices I make because of fear, obligation and guilt.  She's always in my head.  And as her diseases progress, it only gets worse.  Her fears get worse.  It's a revolving downward cycle, and she sucks the joy out of my life.  That is the truth.

I don't want you to have to suffer what so many of us who live close to our geriatric BPD mothers suffer.  Words cannot accurately convey the truth of what goes on.  So I would urge you extreme caution in your choice of words around both your H and MIL, so that they don't misinterpret your words, and assume you have opened the door and accepted the option.  Regardless of what you say directly, it's possible that what you say indirectly means as much or more.  Because once they pick up they have your approval, that door is gonna open whether you like it or not.  I guess my warning is "choose your words carefully" on this topic.

Ultimately they are gonna do what they are gonna do, and no, you can't forbid them from moving her close.  But I very much doubt you want to inadvertantly give them license to move her close, because of possible hidden messages in terms such as "if she moves here".

All very good points.  I would suggest putting your sentences together, and running it by us here in advance when you are ready.  So many minds here with good ideas and different perspectives to assist you with this... I would try to keep it as positive as possible, focussing on all the plusses of where she is right now.

This is a start, but who the heck decides if it's successful?  MIL?  H?  Wayyyy too subjective.  Success has to be measurable.  Like 90% less conflict than there is presently?  Or you actually enjoy being with her 75% of the time?  Or the psychiatrist can say she is 80% better?  Back to counselling for 6 months...  Sounds good, but you two have already done lots of counselling.  He knows he could probably survive another 6 months, jump through that hoop, and then he's got his "go ahead".  This doesn't mean it will bring results.  The results really depend on what his "intentions" for doing the counselling are.  Are they to acquire more skills to "individuate" from his mom or to work as a team player with you on decisions about her?  I really like the "making a decision as a team" part.  Is he currently a good "team player" when it comes to making decisions that revolve around his mother, or would the skill of "team player on decisions about his mom" be a new skill set?  Hmm. How difficult will it be to work as a team with him, when it comes to her?  I ask because when it comes to caring for his mom, it seems like the team is he and his mom (not so much you as you have stepped off the triangle and left him to deal with his mother as he needs to). You already know that he is more afraid of his mom than of you, so "working as a team player with you" is going to take a whole lot of work beyond counselling when it comes to his mom.  I also really like the part that says counselling "twice a month for the first year she lives here".  OK - there it is again "for the 1st year she lives here".  That definitely conveys the  message it's ok with you if she comes.  See what I'm getting at?  You've accepted it's gonna happen through the language, even if you've clearly articulated at other times that you not are comfortable with her coming to live close.  "For the first year she lives here" is the part they are gonna hear, PJ.  After that, even if it's counselling every two months, it's gonna get ugly unless she has "successfully" completed CBT, DBT.

Yes, but the fear, panic and misery direct the need for attention.  Look at the attention she already demands from your H.  Once he's within a convenient driving radius, the opportunity is there for her to get SOO much more attention, control him more, and drive a deeper wedge between you two, because she's competing with you.  She can't help herself when she has that much more opportunity.  And as she ages, all her needs will escalate.

Sorry to paint a dark picture, but I'm living in that world right now.  That's where I am.  And it is dark, and it sucks.  I wouldn't wish it on anyone.  Prevention is "key".  If I had been given a crystal ball 30 years ago, I would have moved with H to a warmer climate away from mother before we settled down, had kids, and became immersed in our community.  Our life would have been free-er, and had much less chaos.  We would have been healthier, happier, and more joyful.  As it is, she affects every decision we make.  Even which day I shop for her, and when we plan a holiday.  Everything. H and I are not free to move to a warmer climate now, because of mother.  Prevention is key.  I take my hat off to NW who recently said "no" when her mother wanted to move closer to her.  That is the only way to manage the toxicity, in my experience.  It's called distance.  Distance gives space to have an autonomous joyful life.  Toxic people bring chaos.

So I urge you to think long and deep about the words you use with H and MIL.  "For the first year she lives here" is exactly what MIL would want to hear.  Those are the only words that matter.  Once that happens (that she moves close), it will evolve as it will, and that will be outside of your control.

Just my thoughts. :hug:

The other thing PJ is that when I need a break from my mom, H steps into my shoes to do her grocery shopping or whatever "list" she needs done.  When your H is showing signs of stress with his mom, or if he needs a break, who will step into his shoes?  Right now he's been giving me a "break" for about two weeks.  Your H will probably say he will do it all - but that leads to it's own problem.

All things to think about.

Do you really believe MIL would willingly go into and complete a DBT program? I doubt it. NOT a realistic objective.

The only way I would consider letting MIL move nearby would be for her to move directly into assisted living. Otherwise, the list of daily and weekly tasks would be physically impossible to manage (as Methuen discovered).

At some point, MIL's physical needs will be more than your H could even fathom helping with -- that's why I suggested listing what her needs would be through the next stages of aging and declining health and capabilities.

Will H be willing to help her with personal care -- showering, dressing, shampooing hair, brushing teeth? Then furthur, as declining liver and kidney function occurs -- massaging, lotioning itchy skin,-- and then changing adult diapers? Preparing food that she can/will eat, preparing and dispensing medications, getting up three times a night because she is having hallucinations?

This is the reality of the last years of life -- I lived it with my mother. If H isn't prepared to do it, then plans need to be made far in advance of MIL reaching that point.

I thought you and hubby were still in counseling?

If it ended, can you share how the decision was made to stop counseling?

I'm going to echo others saying that DBT or any mental health intervention is not realistic.

This is a person not following and getting basic medical care (following dr orders and all that)

The leap is just to great to go from that to regularly attending and/or "participating" in any sort of program.

Best,

FF

FF we last saw our marriage counselor for kids about 4 weeks ago. I need to set up regular appts.

Y'all have given me a lot to think about. I'm taking what you say very seriously, M, because you're living it. I don't use the phrase "if she moves here" but I let H say it, and that's a mistake. I'll write more about that soon.

Starting with a caregiver list to talk through with H, hopefully a reality check for him. I combined comments here with some caregiver lists I found online.

Personal care - showering, dressing, shampooing hair, brushing teeth, toileting, grooming

Food preparation - meal planning for nutrition and preference, shopping, cooking, dishing, feeding, cleaning the kitchen, throwing out old food

Medical care - oversee drug intake and quantity, advocacy when care is insufficient, setting up medical appointments, health insurance paperwork and communication, bill payments, transportation to medical and dental appointments, symptom monitoring, communication with medical providers, picking up medications, dispensing medications, providing massages to ease pain, applying lotion to itchy skin, changing bedding and adult diapers, cleaning up after they have an accident or are sick, addressing continence issues

Mobility - transportation to family events and social functions, transportation to medical appointments, getting outside, move them in and out of wheel chair, entering and exiting a vehicle

Supervision - basic home maintenance, regular dishwashing, sweeping and general cleaning, trash, paying bills and financial accountability, bank account supervision, power of attorney responsibilities, memory care, running errands, 24 hr care in case of emergency, making phone calls

Emotional support and socialization - reliable companionship, playing games, relationship building, time spent laughing and sharing, social activities

Mediation - be the point of contact for bank, doctors, friends, family and lawyers

I found this list, and conservatively, MIL exhibits 13 out of 20: https://commhealthcare.com/sign-parent-might-need-home-care/

A first approach could be to convince H and others in the family that she really needs a level of in-home care now. Doesn't have to be dramatic, maybe a few times a week.

I do think he/they would take ANY use of this phrase as permission. I need to be very, very careful NOT to use any version of this phrase, ever, and I need to be careful to respond with clarity when he uses it...otherwise, I'm leaving the door open.

What I'm taking away, M, is the seriousness of the decision. I follow your story closely even when I don't comment. I know all you're dealing with and it's intense. It would become the same for us. Prevention would address all of this.

When he mentions her moving here, I'll respond with the following:
"She, and you, are getting a lot of amazing help from family - sister, brothers, cousins and grandkids. Don't you think it's important for her to have the entire support system behind her?"

If he pushes, "I will HAVE to move her down here at some point, I don't know what else to do," I respond with,
"What is your plan to make up for the loss of her support system? Do you plan to be her only social contact, and how will this impact our marriage? What parts of this list (in previous post) are you going to cover? Are you willing to support me in my current boundaries regarding her visits?"

OR, perhaps I state very clearly, and in writing so he can't argue that he didn't understand,

"I realized that I haven't been direct with you about my feelings regarding moving your mom here. Moving her here would put a lot of strain on our marriage, strain I'm not sure our relationship would survive. Moving her here is not fair to her - you would pull her away from all other family and become her only social connection. It's also not fair to you. Without support from family, you lose your own support system and that is not sustainable. Moving her here would mean you wouldn't have to drive 2 hrs to see her, but for the above reasons, I strongly believe that it is a very poor plan. I want to go on record saying that I do NOT support you moving your mom here.

I am willing to be a supportive partner to you and help you think through and research options. I firmly believe that she will find the best aging experience in (city where she lives), and that encouraging her to stay there is the best decision for her and for our marriage."

What do you all think?


Sadly, I would divorce him before being put through that. I am willing to be a partner and a teammate in her care and support him, provided my boundaries are respected. Moving her here is disrespecting my boundaries and I think what I'm getting from you is that I have not communicated that clearly. That's super serious and something I need to correct, SOON. I also don't want to come across as making threats or bullying him. Help!

I am tending toward getting in front of it by initiating b the conversation with total clarity. Have the list of responsibilities in your hand for discussion.

Should he, God forbid, move her to your city, he needs to understand the time commitment would preclude his workout schedule, hunting, other activities he values -- while at the same time, those are what would save his sanity.

Is this a conversation you could have in a counseling session?

Is there any way to get your husband to go to individual therapy? Until he has the strength to say no to his mother, not much is going to change. I can't imagine he is happy constantly being manipulated by her.

Perhaps wise to take a couple of steps back.

Is your hubby the POA?  There is no doubt he has "influence" but I would encourage you to focus on..."how are decisions made about Mom"  (stay away from where she lives..)  Just look for patterns.

It may turn out he is the decider...I would bet he is not.

If you look at it from the point of view that he realizes he is not the primary guy, yet he is the "closest relative in family position" (only kid..right)...so he feels bad that he isn't the primary guy.

I think (if that is accurate..please confirm) that is your place of empathy to start from and the "wound" that you need to protect and care for.

As far as what to say...I would suggest

Him.."I think I HAVE to move Mom here."

you "Oh goodness...that seems disastrous.  Her entire support system would collapse."

Note:  I don't think you offer solutions or further analysis.  The less you say..the clearer you say it...the less chance he can "hear what he wants".

Let him do the analysis and hard answering of questions...you are the "asker".  "How much time per week does Cousin Sally spend shopping with Mom?"  That kind of thing.

Another reason I think the simpler approach is better is that all of this "trying to get in front of it" is going to wear you out.  It's going to be hard enough to pull off the disastrous comment with a concerned but empathetic tone.

Best,

FF

Exactly, GaGrl. He has to see that he would lose autonomy by moving her here, right?

I scheduled a counseling session today to have this convo.

z, he did a short bit of individual counseling after his last marriage failed, but when our marriage counselor suggested it, he insisted he was fine and didn't need it. I'm still hopeful that he will see someone, someday.

ff, he is POA and is on all of her accounts. He's the primary beneficiary on everything and can make almost every decision she can. He makes some decisions for her, and other times I hear him urging her to make the decision. Later he says he doesn't want to be blamed when it goes bad.

I try to empathize with the feelings he has around guilt while not validating the invalid. MIL has plenty of resources and family. She is hardly destitute, and I, for one, do not hold to the "my children must take care of me when I'm elderly" mandate. At the moment I offer few opinions and ask questions. I know he appreciates this approach much more than any other I've tried. I've also learned from experience that this approach alone and being passive with my boundaries is ineffective with H and MIL. There is wisdom in voicing my limits clearly at some point.

For the "getting in front of it thing".

If all the effort paid off and you got in front of it, then it's worth it.

IMO..most of the time people try to "get in front of" or "out BPD..a pwBPD", they expend tons of energy and then the pwBPD does what they are going to do anyway...and the "non" is worn out from all the effort...and has a hard time responding.

Last:  I've had some success in getting in front of things that I suspected were coming by having conversations where "values" are agreed on. 

So in this sense PJ might have conversations about "making joint decisions"..."our marriage comes first" and the like...(without mentioning any specific issue at hand)

Then when an "announcement" is made, instead of arguing against the "announcement", ask how the "announcement" fits with the values previously agreed to.  Don't make the case for it...let them make the case for the announcement.

So..PJ's hubby says, "I've decided to move Mom to X."  PJ could say..."Oh...that's big news.  How do the values we agreed to apply in this instance?"

"Getting in front of it"...that's "you" doing the work.

"Forcing them to wrestle with their own inconsistent and illogical statements/decisions"...puts much more of the burden (and exhaustion) on them.

Best,

FF

PJ wouldn't be trying to "get in front of" decisions made by a pwBPD. She would be "getting in front of" a values (and logistics) conversation with her non H -- BEFORE the MIL might start putting pressure on regarding a move.

Make sense?

Hasn't the pressure already been applied before?  Where does MIL go/not go has been an issue and will likely remain one.

Best,

FF

Yes, but a recent injury has now created a more urgent conversation.

Boundary setting is defined as "the life skill of openly communicating, asserting, and defending personal values." I'm responsible for openly communicating and I always communicate best when I've had time to prepare, so thank you all for helping with that.

He's had moments of saying no and setting better boundaries in the last few years, after specific guidance from our therapist. He's unwilling to explore what's at the root of his dynamic with his mom, which to me indicates he is still vulnerable to falling in step with her.

MIL is not on her manipulative game. In the last few weeks when she calls, he sighs and mutters under his breath, then answers cheerfully. Last night he said, "I hate the way my mom and ex-wife don't have a filter. They say whatever comes to their minds when they're angry and I just hate that, I don't want to be like that." It was the first time he'd put his mom and his ex-wife into the same sentence and critiqued them both for the same behavior.

Guessing a recipe of waify MIL tears and a pinch of BPD sweetness will reel him back in in the near future.

Have any hints or possibilities of a move come up?

Since MIL is off her game (not surprising given age and injury), I think you should give just as much thought to "what if she doesn't bounce back".

What if her level of manipulation and BPDish traits is now fixed a new level?

Best,

FF

No recent hints or possibilities that I'm aware of, last time he mentioned it to me was a little over a week ago. Counseling session is on the 24th.

It's possible that this is the new normal. In some ways I hope it is. He finds it harder to set boundaries when she is weepy and sweet.

I think for all of us with a BPD parent, the ""waif" personality is hardest to deal with.

With my mother, her "Waif" personality is a manipulation. Basically all of them are ( she can change from one to the other in an instant ), but if she can't get what she wants with the Queen or Witch - then she goes to Waif. It's difficult because on one hand, it is a manipulation and yet, on the other, she's elderly and on her own and that is sad- for her and for her children. I wish we didn't have to keep a distance from her- because although she's elderly and on her own, she's emotionally abusive and cruel when we are around her.

It was very difficult to tell her I didn't want her to move near me. She'd bring it up and I'd avoid speaking about it as I don't want to discuss it with her because that would be upsetting for both of us. But she pushed the idea and since the social worker wanted to bring up the topic of assisted living and where that would be, I had to be clear about what I wanted. I realize she has the choice of moving wherever she wants but they asked me what I wanted and the choices were- not tell the truth or be honest about it. I thought about it carefully- what could be the best decision- but the impact just this discussion had was evident- I could not sleep well, and it was stressful.

I realized that I needed the physical distance to be a boundary because it is so hard to have boundaries with her. Distance means I don't have to say "no" to her requests as often because I don't live close enough to her to do daily chores for her like running errands or taking care of her needs. When I visit, the visit is focused on her and I do these things for her. But emotionally, 24/7 of her verbal and emotional abuse is a lot to handle.

So I had to say it. I actually booked a session with a coach/therapist to go over what to say and practice- it was so hard to do. I needed the support. The social worker recorded it. You can hear the trembling in my voice as I spoke. BPD mom started out in Waif mode- and as soon as I said it- out came the Witch and she said some really cruel things. She demanded to know why. I started to JADE ( feel bad about that - but emotionally I was rattled at that point ) and she kept pushing. "I need to know exactly WHY!" and then, I saw where this was going and stopped and let the social worker continue the conversation.

I am sure it was hurtful to her to hear this. I don't want to hurt her feelings.

So, some insight into your H. For him to say no to his mother is very difficult. However, I do think at some point it becomes a choice he needs to make. A normal parent would want their child to have a life of their own and their own family. I certainly hope that for my children and in addition, want to be  involved in their lives but don't expect them to be constantly meeting my needs. But with my own mother, she doesn't seem to care about that. My purpose is to serve her. She'd enlist my kids in that as well if she could. I cringed when I read your H said his daughter would be old enough to drive mother around. Sure, it's one thing to ask a teen to help grandma once in a while- but it's not likely that a teen can be able to have firm boundaries with a disordered one.

So, the issue is- there's a conflict of interest between what is best for the adult child and what their BPD parent wants and this puts your H in a tough position- but I think it's on him to establish what his boundaries with her are.

Putting any responsibility for an elderly and frail relative on a teen is too risky. The elder's instability makes getting in and out of a vehicle very difficult. My mother fell getting into our car, and I was unable to keep her from going down -- broken ankle.

So I brought up my concerns in counseling. Most of the session focused on kids (not a story for today) so we didn't dwell on the MIL moving thing. Our conversation, abbreviated:

Me: H has mentioned moving MIL down here. I have some serious concerns.
Counselor: What are your concerns?
Me: H and MIL lack boundaries. She's a hard person to say 'no' to, and she's mistreated me. She's caused major issues in our relationship. My bigger concern is her care would suffer. He would become her sole go-to for emotional, social, medical advocacy support. It's not fair to her, to me, or him.
Counselor: That makes a lot of sense. Moving here would negatively impact her quality of life. So what do you want?
Me: I don't want her to move down here. If H wants that, I need him to talk to me about what he wants before making plans with MIL.
Counselor: Before even mentioning it to MIL he should broach the subject with you so that you can work out a unified response?
Me: Yes.
Counselor: That sounds reasonable.
H: I don't think mom wants to move down here. I have never mentioned it to my mom and I'm happy to talk to you first.

I know for a fact that he's talked to his mom about it, though it's possible he hasn't brought it up recently.

I feel better, because while I can't control him or her, I communicated in the presence of another person who can attest to the conversation because in the past, H claimed he didn't understand what I said.

This is such a great way to put it, NW.


Thanks for this insight. It's really, really helpful. I don't think he'll ever reach your level of self-awareness or stick up for himself the way you did. I do suspect part of him realizes that his life would change completely if she moved down here, and he is selfish enough (in a healthy way) to want his freedom and autonomy, even if those thoughts also make him feel guilty.

I don't think he'd ever tell her no. I think the best case scenario is if he focuses on her quality of life and care and encourages her to stay there, for her sake.

I need to give him some credit, too. MIL waffles between decisions a lot. One day she'll want to move to another apartment complex because of the severe injustice and mistreatment, the next day she's talked herself out of it because it's too much work. She wants someone else to make all of her decisions, but she also punishes the people that make decisions by complaining. H knows this and is wary.

He isn't honest with himself, but in some ways he is really smart with her. He's had a lifetime of conditioning dealing with her. I've seen him use it wisely a few times so I'm hoping this is one of those times.

It's tough, but also I have done a lot of work in counseling to get to even be able to say no to her. I don't know where your H is at with this, and also what the nature of their relationship is. It's interesting because the golden child in the family has a lot more difficulty saying no to BPD mom. Their relationship is different because I think there has been some good times between them. As her scapegoat child, she's been different with me. This doesn't mean I would want to say or do anything that might hurt her, I don't. In fact, I think I've put in more effort to win my parents' approval. However, we don't have a warm connection.

I don't know what kind of relationship your H has with his mother.

Ultimately though, I think the boundary needs to be with you. For your H, he wants it both ways- to not have to say no to his mother and also to have his marriage. I understand you don't want to put him in the position to choose, but if it does come down to his mother moving near you- you might be.

Boundaries are not what we impose on another person. It's what we choose to do when our boundary is crossed. We can not control another person- we can only decide what we would do about it.

My take on this situation is that, your H will do as much as you tolerate. Saying no to BPD mom may be harder for him than saying no to you. This is because of the dynamics he grew up with and also your more reasonable behavior. But this also gives you the short end of the stick when it comes to his time and attention. It may be that he could only say no to his mother when it becomes harder to say no to you.

This doesn't mean you act out like his mom. However, if your boundary on having mother near you is something important to you, you will likely need to be the one to defend it. " Honey, I love you and value our marriage, and I agree it's important to help a parent to some extent, but if your mother moves here, the impact on our marriage will be considerable. I need you to consider the marriage first. I don't want her to move here."

What he does is up to him. Then you need to consider what you would do if he did agree to moving his mother near you.

I see another possibility.

The boundary of distance could be a gift to your hubby.  Is it more reasonable to think he will develop the ability to say no to Mom...or that he puts the marriage in front of Mom...and that is the "reason" he says no..or delays...or doesn't make a decision either way.

MIL:  I'm moving up there

Hubby:  I don't know Mom, let me talk to PJ.

He didn't say yes or no...but he followed through with his promise to you.

To me...that seems to be a more realistic achievement than.

MIL:  I'm moving up here...bring the truck tomorrow.

Hubby:  No Mom..I won't allow that.

Best,

FF

ff, I think there is a possibility that if I communicate effectively, H will understand the gravity of choosing his mom over me. This understanding may help inform his choices, one way or the other.


He might say this to his mom if she was talking about where to meet for lunch, but about her proximity to him? No way. It would position me between the two of them as the decider and trigger her insecurity. His current MO is to casually let her ramble, give a noncommittal response and change the subject.

He won't tell her flat no, either.

Best case scenario: he settles on a response with me and himself, and comes up with a response something like, "I don't think that's the best thing for you mom," explain and repeat as necessary.

Worst case scenario: becomes more and more miserable and trapped and blames me as an outlet for his own guilt.

Potential scenario I don't want to even think about: H and I discuss her moving here for 6-12 months in counseling...yeah no I can't even finish it. It's a train wreck waiting to happen, even if we have the best boundaries laid out.

She can get mean but she is 95% waif. She won't make demands because they won't work on him. She'll cry, reminisce about his dad, wish that someone cared, talk about loneliness and depression. Occasionally she won't pick up when he calls so that he panics. She won't take care of herself which will result in harm so H will feel guilty. She'll report her sadness to other people who will call H and tell him he should take better care of her.

NW, you mentioned not getting him to choose between us. I kind of agree. I'd never get between him and his mom or ask him not to talk to her and see her. That would violate my values. I want him to feel free to go see her anytime he wants to. But I can and should be his priority when it comes to communicating, planning, living life, and making decisions. Prioritizing me may have the natural consequence of making him and MIL sad, maybe even miss out on things. I empathize with any loss they may feel. Doesn't mean it's not right to prioritize me.

I like the way you keep stressing that he wants both me and his mom happy, juggling both so no one gets upset. It's made me appreciate that our counselor talks a lot about making team decisions and prioritizing each other. This all gives me insight into potential, more effective ways of talking to him about this.

And you're right, I can't control him so my goal is to communicate my desires/values early and often so that he's working with accurate, up to date information. I can communicate effectively so that he understands the gravity of this for me/us. If he decides outside of me, that is a major red flag on so many levels and I can work to make the consequences clear so that if he chooses mom, he's also knowingly choosing consequences for our relationship.

Maybe that's still trying to control him? I'm trying to stay in my lane.

Thanks for your help all. I really appreciate you and this space to work it all out.

So...yes there is risk here...but I think it's "more likely than not" that you should declare victory and move on.

Yes..remain vigilant and some sort of recurring reminder or question "Anything we need to discuss about your Mom?"

And then move on with life.

As I've "gotten to know" your hubby I came to the same conclusion of the quote that I bolded.  The good news is...his responses have been working...so far.


Thoughts?


Best,

FF

NW, you mentioned not getting him to choose between us. I kind of agree.

PJ , I meant that it seems this is what you wanted to do. Honestly, with BPD, from my own experience- there needs to be a firm boundary. Being "nice" and not saying "no" - for my BPD mother means nothing. Even a flat out  "no" results in her pushing a boundary sometimes.

I have found that with BPD- the choice needs to be made and the boundary needs to be firm. From my mother's perspective, one is either on her side or not her side. The choice is black and white thinking. To me (and to you)- one should not have to choose. One can care for a spouse, and a parent, and a friend. It doesn't subtract. It is possible you and his mother don't think about this the same way.

An emotionally healthy mother wants their child to be happily married. Yes, in this situation, I want to also be a part of my children's lives at that point, but I would also not demand so much of them that it takes away from their marriage. That is because an emotionally healthy parent respects boundaries. A BPD parent probably won't.

Your MIL, ( like my mother probably) is so overwhelmed by her own needs, she only sees these needs that have to be filled somehow. How it affects your H probably isn't first on her mind. When my father was ill, I left my own family to help out some, but I could not be there all the times she wanted me to- because I also had my own family to take care of. To her though, I disappointed them. I could have neglected my own family to be there more- but I don't think she'd see that I did that.

He won't tell her flat no, either.

I didn't want to have to do this. I dreaded it. I was so stressed over knowing I had to say it. But the alternative, thinking she'd actually move near me was more stressful. Having boundaries with my mother is extremely hard. I have a recording of it- the meeting was recorded. You could hear my voice trembling. Then, BPD mother got angry at me. I got all flustered. I didn't want to have to choose. I wish I could be able to be of help to my mother and also maintain my own boundaries- but it doesn't work with her. I tried the change the subject thing but she kept bringing it up and became more insistent. I had to say no.

I do think it's important to set your boundary- absolute "no" to her moving near you to your H. He may go ahead and make you the bad guy in this triangle with BPD mom. That would go along with the Karpan triangle. This was the way things worked in my family. Once I said no, I took responsibility for that. But in my family it would be - from my father "mother says no" or my mother" your father says no"- pass the blame on so you don't look like the bad guy.

Someone's likely to end up as the "bad guy" in BPD MIL's world and it may be you- but that is the cost of saying no- however that's less of a cost than saying "yes" when you mean it to remain the good guy.

Whatever goes on between your H and his mother- what he says to her- is not something you can control. The bottom line for you, the boundary- is what you would do if your H brought her near to you without your agreement to it. I hope that doesn't happen, but if it did, you would see what choice he made- choosing her wishes over yours.

The boundary for you is what would you do if that happened. I truly hope he doesn't do that, but when it comes to boundaries, all we can control is our response to when someone crosses it.

Maybe he doesn't want to be the bad guy, maybe he cannot be the bad guy to his mother...

I am starting to see that my main emotion toward my mother is fear. I am terrorized by her. I just started seeing a therapist and he says it is normal based on my childhood with her, and we are just starting to work on transforming this fear and helping me not feel scared anymore.

The thing is, I cannot control this fear. It's little me...and I didn't even know how scared I was of her two weeks ago. It was very well hidden behind a calm demeanor that I perfected over the years to keep her 'happy". Saying no to her was always a challenge, and many times I "dumped" it on my husband, with his approval, of course. Otherwise, it was nearly impossible, gave me trouble breathing.

He said he doesn't care to be the bad guy to her, and so, he told me to blame it on him if it could help me. And I did sometimes. It helped.

Maybe I should be able to deal with it myself, maybe I should carry my own weight...but then, I help him too. I send cards to his mother that he signs, I help him better manage his own relationships with his parents. We are a team. And in the end, what matters is not if I was able to say no by myself, but that I was able to say no, and any means to get me there is fine by him, even if I 'blame it on him" because in the end it is for us... When I struggle, he carries me and when he struggles, I carry him. In the end, it brings us further, closer together.

To be clear, though, I don't insult him in his back ever... It's mostly like : ho that would be great but he doesn't want to, and as his wife, I need to stand by him. ... This way she can't lose it at me... She gets frustrated at him, but he is out of reach and he doesn't give a damn... It wouldn't work for everyone and every situation though...

Any way you being the bad guy could help him say no? Is it truly guilt or little him still scared of his mother? I know daughters and sons are different to a BPD mother, just brainstorming here I guess... Maybe you already tried that as well, so disregard whatever don't suit your situation...

Riv3rW0lf makes an important point here. Fear is the main emotion we kids feel towards our BPD mother. We are terrified of her, actually.

Looking at your husband, this may not make much logical sense to you. It isn't logical. Your H may be twice her size now. My mother is a tiny elderly lady. She can't hurt us. MIL doesn't have to have been physically abusive either.

Doesn't matter. I think this is so instinctual - and the fear began when we were very small and our parents towered over us. A raging, inconsistent parent is scary to a kid. Fear was how she controlled us as well. If we didn't obey her, if we triggered her, the response was scary.

I didn't stand up to her or have boundaries with her until I felt I had to. As my children got older, she began to enlist them as her emotional caretakers. I also feared she's triangulate them against me. If it was anything that would make me overcome the fear of being the "bad guy" it was because the fear of her enlisting my children was greater.

The consequences of saying "no" to her are significant. They are something to fear. If she knows I am emotionally invested in something she controls - this is what she goes for. When I was a child, it might be my favorite toy. She would confiscate it until I complied. She did that with my father as well. My father had several hobbies, and if he left something out that he was invested in- and she was angry at him- she'd destroy it.

But in addition to items, she interferes with relationships.

And as you can imagine, I was scared of telling her I didn't want her to move near me and her reaction was predictable. And I felt as if I was a scared little kid the whole time.

Thank you for your insight and for sharing your experiences. It is helpful to get a window into H's perspective. I don't always understand it, but I learn every time you share and I feel empathy for you, and for him. I earn respect for those of you here who have faced the scary truth about your parents. Wow. Not everyone can do that and I admire you. H was absolutely the golden child and bears the weight that comes with that, and maybe that's why it's hard for him to face it.

ff, agree, I think I've said what I needed to for now. I also agree with NW, I think I need to really clarify the gravity.

RW and NW, I think fear plays a big role. I've seen her reduce him to a fearful, silent child. He seemed at a loss when the moment passed.

The way he regards himself is very important to him. He has to be able to respect himself. For sure, we all do. Taking care of her was pounded into him at a young age and she reinforces it at every turn. That's a good value, it's just that for him, it comes at the cost of losing oneself and any meaningful connection to others he loves. That's a price no one should pay. I get the sense that being honest about who she is would have him questioning all he thinks is good in life, and he believes that's too much of a risk?

I don't know why this makes me laugh, but MIL weaponizes her will. Never met anyone who did that. If a grandkid displeases her, she cuts them out. I was cut out in 2019.


I love this, RW. We talk a lot about operating as a team in counseling. In most other parts of life he's a great teammate and so am I. We both get what it means to pick each other up, carry an extra load now and again.

Don't mind being the bad guy at all. I've been the bad guy to his entire family since 2019 when I clarified she wouldn't be moving in with us. I'm shunned and they avoid me at family gatherings. It's not the worst thing. I've been the bad guy in my own family and I survived.

I no longer care what MIL and fam believe. I don't care if they like me. I do care what H believes. H believed I was the problem for almost 3 years. It took a lot of energy and mindfulness to learn boundaries and reflect his blame. He doesn't actively blame me anymore but I guess I'm always afraid we'll end up there because he's not brave enough to be honest.

If H were to say, "Babe, mom is a lot and I just can't fight her. I need your help. Do you mind if I put this one on you?" I'd drop what I was doing and lay down as a happy and willing sacrifice lol

I wonder how he'd respond if I told him that? That he has that option?

 

Yep...good job on this.

I would suggest that more importantly, you have "found your voice".  You have thought it through and had some "successful" conversations about it.

So...when things go sideways and H...out of nowhere tosses out an outlandish idea (is there any doubt this will happen...at some point), instead of "reacting" with shock and awe...you have your voice, state your position again and then shift to supporting/validating whatever extreme emotion is at play.

Best,

FF

In some ways, I think it's harder to stand up to a parent if one is the golden child. The GC has more of a "good times" connection to the parent, being the favored child. This was apparent to me even as a young child. My mother clearly favored the GC.

Although she still favors the GC, she also treats the GC worse than she does me when we are together. She knows I won't tolerate it, but also the GC does tolerate it more and is afraid to upset her. When the relationship isn't good in the first place, there's less fear of losing the special status and probably more obligation on the part of the GC due to having been the favored child. The GC in my family is more enmeshed, but recently has been standing up to her more. On the other hand, being the non favored child, I tried harder to gain approval from my parents.

The will has not even been a consideration.  She has written us in, and out, and back again. We don't think about it.

Speaking from my own experience here, and I think all our experiences are different...

I just opened Pandora's box, started therapy, albeit I have no idea if this guy can even help. I brought myself very far in life, I believed I had it all figured out. And in November, as I spent extended time at my mother's place, it reopened trauma.

I've been working on finding myself again since November... And I can't. I lost myself. Which is probably a good thing...

Because the realization of what my mother actually was, what she actually did, came with the need to take a hard long look at myself, at my past. And it forced me to see that everything I had built was built on fear, on inner critic work, on pain and suffering. I was completely empty and I was so used in feeling empty that I hadn't even realized it.

I dissociated so much, I can say I am happy but I don't feel it. And I am working in regaining that part of me that died when I was 9.

And so yes, it is risky to recognize the past for what it is.

It comes at a price, but one he must one day be willing to pay in order to truly find himself...  And free himself.

For now, he is so very lucky to have a wife like you, who cares.

I cannot stress enough how life saving meeting my husband was for me. He is the reason I got up in the first place, and the only reason I became strong enough to take this leap.

Do not underestimate your role for him.. it saddens me immensely to read he thought of you as the bad guy for three years, and it must have taken a lot of love and care to stay and work it through with him, it is a tribute to your love and compassion. I do hope he finds the courage to see the truth for what it is at some point...

Riv3rW0lf shares some deep thoughts here:


It is a tough journey but we'll worth the effort. Not everyone chooses to take it. My brother who is 3 years older, the first born, has not been able to take the first step. He lives in addiction every day of his life and wishes to be free. I have gently encouraged him to get help, knowing that AA will help with his alcohlism and teach him about many other things. I felt the deeper calling to heal from my childhood and needed to in order to survive and thrive. I wish my brother would, but we both know enough about controlling people to understand that he gets to make his own choices, and I will love him and walk alongside him, but I will not rescue him from his choices either.

Even though our uBPDm passed away nearly 10 years ago, he cannot bear to have mom's ashes leave his house. He feels closer to her that way. I, on the other hand, don't want any of them. Her hold on us was too strong and demanding.

So I guess I'm just popping in to say that it's worth the effort to heal, but not all choose to go there. PJ, I'm really glad that you see you have value, separate from DH, and that you're also doing your best to understand him and be there while maintaining boundaries.

 :hug:
Wools

NW, you talked about the GC fearing the loss of favored status, and that rings true.

H has said friends, family and even his brother believed H was treated better than his brother, who I'll call M.  H insists it wasn't true, that he and M were treated exactly the same. Some time before he committed suicide,  M went to their aunt and vented to her about the mistreatment. After the suicide, aunt confronted MIL and accused her of mistreatment that led to M's suicide. MIL cut off the aunt and H will never speak to his deceased dad's only sibling because of this.

I wonder if H denies any difference in treatment so vehemently because he can't handle feeling responsible for his brother's suicide, even though none of this is his fault.

RW thanks for sharing what your husband means to you. H can't express any gratitude for my support so I'll appreciate yours for your husband. It's beautiful. :)

Agree with you, Wools and RW, that facing it opens pandora's box. An unrelated poster here once said that we shouldn't force anyone to face something they're not willing and ready to face, because we could do more harm than good. I was trying to control the situation, and him, and I tried to get him to face something he wasn't emotionally prepared for. Live and learn.

Oh wow PJ, that is some serious trauma for your H.

Of course he has no responsibility for that. But children of pwBPD were groomed to feel responsible for their BPD mother's feelings. Also, he lost a sibling and that is significant trauma- but I am willing to bet his parents did not offer the kind of comfort and support, and consolation he needed.

Although I was an adult when my father died, the focus was on BPD mother. Yet, I had lost a father and was grieving. If I said something like "I'm sad, I lost a father" her reply was "well I lost a husband"- literally no mention that he had any relationship to me. It was only about her.

My parents generally didn't express much empathy for their children. My father did sometimes but there is none from my mother. I suspect that you H didn't get much either and what a horrific loss for him.