BPDFamily.com

A quick update, my wife has been trying harder and harder to get emotionally back “in” with me, including today a fear of abandonment I’ve not seen before. We exchanged brief texts this AM, and I stopped responding for a few hours. She called my phone multiple times, texted my parents (for the first time since she left), and even claims she called my work, as I “scared her,” that she was worried something had happened to me.

I told her my family might not respond as they are upset what she did (abandon and smear me), and all she could say was “that’s not nice,” “they like to burn bridges,” etc. They were her greatest supporters until this happened but now don’t trust her (understandably).

This goes along with a bunch of vague messages about “who know what will happen, we just needed time to grow, etc etc”

At the same time, she continues to funnel money ($8500) to a divorce lawyer, filed a few months ago but still hasn’t told me that, I haven’t been served, and no contact to me from her lawyer.

Now, she’s complaining to me about her lawyer (that she’s supposedly using to divorce me) that she’s expensive, mean, etc.

Not sure what to ask, just needed to vent and say what the heck?

As a third person, what advice would you give to yourself?

That she is toggling between a fear of abandonment and fear of engulfment and that I should believe her actions, not her words.

Am I on the right track?

Looking at actions rather than words is very wise.

Regarding yourself and your actions, what advice would future WhatToDo47 give to present WhatToDo47?

I would say protect yourself, control what you can (which is only yourself), and remember that she changes what she’s thinking/feeling randomly and with great intensity so don’t trust her or take anything too seriously

That $8500 is a retainer.  If her lawyer wants to bill a lot of hours, there won't be much if anything to return.

Now, she’s complaining to me about her lawyer (that she’s supposedly using to divorce me) that she’s expensive, mean, etc.

Looks like Karpman triangle dynamics. Consulting a lawyer (rescuer) to divorce her husband ( persecutor) as she is a victim.

Now, turning to you  to rescue her from her mean expensive ( persecutor ) lawyer.

To have a victim position, and have someone rescue them, one need to have a persecutor. The positions can change and rescuer can become persecutor. From my own observation, I think victim is the preferred position for someone with BPD. Victims are not responsible for what happens to them, so if they are victims, nothing is their fault.

Lawyers are paid for their time, so they have nothing to lose really from these consultations. However, if it's coming out of your bank account, then you are now experiencing the financial consequences of this.

One of my favorite Dr. Phil lines (not about BPD but to a family that was focused on one person) "you are all lost in the woods and looking at a disordered person to lead you out". You may do better if you decide what course to take and don't sway with her feelings.

Seems your wife goes one way one day, another way the next, and back and forth. The push-pull is a common pattern. Rather than look at each of these incidents as single events, take a long range look. If leaving and then coming back and leaving again is a pattern for her, unless she's spending her own earnings on a lawyer, you may want to protect your bank account.

Very wise, WhatToDo47.

Your comment about randomness reminds me of the Lana Del Ray monologue from Ride:


https://genius.com/Lana-del-rey-ride-monologue-annotated

I do think the drama triangle is interesting and applies in this situation. I know she's not on good terms with her friends and family there, and I have been a reliable rescuer in the past, so she could be looking to me as a rescuer from her "pursuer" attorney. Maybe when she sees I'm not as easy to manipulate as before, and that I have boundaries now, she will try to find a new and easier rescuer. I kind of hope so at this point. I miss her, but this is getting a lot to handle and a little scary, to be honest.

Regarding the $8500, 6000 was a retainer, then she had to pay 2000 more a few months later, and 500 more this week. On the other hand, I have paid a $6000 retainer to an attorney of my own, but have hardly used any of it as nothing really has happened yet.

I think the best thing for me to do now is keep my guard up, remember that I can't trust her, and wait to see what happens. I'm in a stalemate until I can get her off the lease in about 3 weeks, as any action until then would almost certainly trigger an abandonment fear induced dysregulation, and result in her showing up here, trying to move back in before she's off the lease, etc.

She has a history of showing up places (my work, my parents' house, her parents' house, etc) when she is dysregulated and afraid someone is cutting her out of their life. I'm trying to avoid that scenario at all costs until she is off the lease.

Thoughts?

Divorces are expensive. Letting this linger is a waste of money and time. You don't have infinite amounts of either resource.

She is never going to push this forward. You need to bring it to a head and stop the bleeding emotionally and monetarily.

Are you resolute in sticking to your plans?  Let's play a "what if" scenario...

For example, if she does come back before the lease is over and she decides to stay, what about your plans to lease in only your name?  Will you give in and sign a new lease jointly with her, extending your legal, financial and emotional involvement with her?

Or will you stick to your decision?  Will you turn to the apartment managers and ask to move to a separate apartment in your name only and then move your possessions to the new apartment and let them deal with her in an ended lease?

What I'm asking, can you Move On and let her deal with her own issues?  (She is an adult after all.)  You may have compassion, and we laud you for that, but you do yourself no favors not being aware of the risks.

Thank you both, and that is a helpful reality check. I guess this is where I am still deep in the FOG and my caretaker/codependent traits are still strongly engaged. This is something I will bring up with my therapist this week and think long and hard about.

My current plan if she shows up and tries to sign again on the lease is simply to say no. When there is a change to the lease, the remaining party has to prove their income suffices for the rent, which I could easily and she could not, so I could effectively kick her off. I really hope I don't have to do that, but that I am prepared to do.

I do want her back, fixed, but it's beginning to really sink in that that's not possible and never will be.

She is an adult, and I have shielded her from harm, from her family, her inability and/or unwillingness to hold jobs, her impulsive spending habits, her rages at family and friends that burn bridges which I rebuild. I did everything I could, and more, and she still insisted on going down in a ball of flames. Maybe she is the scorpion after all...

What are the laws in your state on marital property and debt? I am not familiar with these kinds of things, but I have heard where one spouse acquires debt- like a credit card bill or loan and both spouses are liable for it. Also if one spouse signs a lease and defaults, can they come to the other one for the rent?

Even if your name is the only one on the lease, or in the case of home ownership, a mortgage, can one kick out a spouse and leave them without a place to stay? I think it's common in marriages for one spouse to earn more than the other, and I don't think one is able to make the other one leave.

These are questions to ask your lawyer. You two are not divorced at the time. So if you keep the apartment, what stops her from renting one that you may be liable for the rent if she defaults? Also, she left voluntarily but can you insist she stays away with no place to stay? I don't know the answers to this, but I would think it's best to ask your lawyer about them so you can choose what to do.

I have also heard of abandonment in legal terms- she actually left and has made steps to divorce. In this case, she may have forfeited some rights, but again, I don't know. If you want to end the marriage, now may be the time to pick up on that ball and proceed with it, as it may be harder should the two of you reconcile, she moves in, and you then make steps to leave.

These are legal questions.

Those are all great questions and I will ask the lawyer. I'm at this crossroads now where each day I am more and more ready to be divorced and done with her. I'm not sure what's holding me back. I guess it's that shred of hope, that I'm sure many of us have/had that she will realize how poorly her life has gone since she left and seek out the help she needs. I realize I can't control that, but I still wish that for her.

Not sure if I'm asking anything her, I'm just hoping I will gain the strength soon to make a decision either way, but I guess that's why I'm posting here on the undecided board.

Especially the point about legal abandonment of the lease is interesting and potentially something I will need to use. I will ask my lawyer. Thank you!

I mean, lose some marital rights for "abandonment". I don't know about married couples on a lease but from having kids in college in off campus housing with room mates, the way these leases work is that all names on the lease are responsible for the entire rent. So you are still responsible for it if your wife walks off.

Sometimes this can be problematic when having room mates on a lease, as in off campus housing. If one room mate decides to leave, the other ones are stuck with the rent. This of course is a mean thing to do to friends, and most don't do that, but I have heard of it happening.

I think it's similar for any number of people on a lease. Each one is liable for the entire rent. Sharing the rent is an agreement between people who live there, not between each person and the landlord in general. They can agree any way they want ( for instant if one has a larger room they may agree to pay a larger share). Same with utilities- the room mates split the bills between them. The utility company doesn't care who pays what as long as the bill is paid. The person whose name is on their account is liable for all of it regardless.

Looking at your lease will tell you who is liable for the rent.  Probably you regardless of if her name is there or not.

Thank you, and that makes sense and is helpful. I'm mainly concerned about her ability to access the apartment without my approval/knowledge. Financially, I plan to keep living there and paying all of the rent. I do know from talking to the leasing office that once she is off the lease she can't just show up and demand entry, whereas right now she can. I do have cameras up (and she knows that) to prevent any damage to the property or surprise visits, but I'm hoping that's enough to deter her for now.

I previously mentioned that you don't have to wait for her to have you served a divorce notice. You don't have to let her stay in control.  Probably all you have to do is have your lawyer respond to her case she filed by saying, proceed.  If she filed it out of state then there may be legal ways to do this remotely, your lawyer is probably just waiting for you to make up your mind, stop dithering and get off the fence, so to speak.

When you file a (divorce) complaint, there's a serve and reply date:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_4#:~:text=If%20a%20defendant%20is%20not,made%20within%20a%20specified%20time.


Has it been 90 days?

Sometimes it seems the rules are more like guidelines.  Domestic court judges do have some discretion in their actions.  If your lawyer doesn't know whether you can answer a divorce case that hasn't been served (delivered to you), then there must be someone out there with the experience who can.

I've been around here for over 15 years and I think somewhere, sometime, it was reported a case was just pending without service for up to a year or more.  And with many courts so bogged down with the mask and isolation concerns of the past two years...  My  inclination - I'm definitely not an attorney - is you can respond directly since you do know of the case and her pleadings, I just don't know whether there is some legal matter with her filing from out of state.  I also don't know whether all her paperwork is online or just the basics.

Thank you both. I looked it up and she has 60 days to serve me in this state. She filed in the state we live in now, not the home state. My lawyer has offered to call hers and basically handle this for me, he's very confident that he can get this settled quickly and I would come out way ahead.

I'm waiting for the lease to expire, 19 days now, and then I will have him contact her lawyer and get a non-BPD filtered version of what's going on.

I do feel dithering and frankly foolish. I just can't bring myself to act yet. It would be so much easier if she would just serve me and we could get on with all this. I'm sure some people here have been in this no man's land. I guess that's the reason for the conflicted board.

It's called borderland. Don't get sucked in.

 haha that's a good name for it. I think I've been a resident for the last 6.5 years and I'm strongly considering moving away permanently

I hope that your lawyer is correct that it can be settled quickly, but I'd also take that with a healthy dose of skepticism. My lawyer told me my case would settle quickly. I think his estimate was 3 months, and that there was no way it would be more than 6 months. It took almost 2 years. And it was about 5x his initial estimate of the costs. It became a running joke that he would tell me how he thought something would go, and I would just say "have you met my wife?" I hope for you that if you proceed to divorce, everything goes quickly and as expected. But be prepared for that not to be the case.

That sounds miserable, but you're right. I have to be prepared for anything. Have you met my wife applies to mine, too. The only thing predictable about her is that she's entirely unpredictable. Did your divorce involve any children or property and was it in a no fault, community property state?

No children. We do own a house together. My state is not a no-fault or community property state, so that should work to your advantage if yours is. In my case, there was no real disagreement over fault or assets. (I filed first as no-fault, she countered with whatever the catchall term is here for "I want it to be his fault but I don't have any specific grounds, really." My attorney said the fault really didn't matter at all and we stipulated to that pretty quickly. We didn't argue about the assets at all. I was always pretty content to give here most of everything.) The time and money were over alimony and her general desire to just drag this out.

Thank you, my state is community property and no fault, so that should help. So far, she hasn't been disagreeable or difficult, but that could and likely will change when it begins to sink in that she's not going to get everything I earn for eternity.

" I want it to be his fault but I don't have any specific grounds, really."

Classic.

The 2 things that could cause problems are spousal support as I make much more than her (but apparently our state uses a simple, standardized formula) to calculate it, and our pets, which she surrendered/abandoned to me, but could choose to be a pain over.

I guess that's what lawyers are for. I hope you get some relief soon, too. Are you still happy with your decision to divorce?

If you're in a state that uses a formula, that's very helpful. Mine does not.

Yes, I am happy with the decision. We settled a week or so ago--a week before the trial date. I gave up a lot, but I'm happy for it to be over and happy to be on the other side of this. Like you, I had a lot of hesitation about going forward with it, and honestly didn't until she essentially left me no choice. But I definitely think it was the right call for me.

I'm glad you were able to settle and I'm glad you are happy with the decision. I am willing to give up a lot, I won't offer it of course but I also won't drag this on once it gets going. In my mind, once I'm served, the game is different. Not sure why that specifically is the boundary for me, but it is. I am getting close to the point where I essentially have no choice.

Are there things that you wish someone would have told you when you were in the hesitation phase?

She moved halfway across the country and I haven't seen her in 4 months. Some days, she calls like nothing happened, but then she ignores me for weeks at a time. It's not really even a marriage at this point, so I'm not sure what I'm holding onto.

I don't think there's anything that anyone could've told me. People told me a lot of things that, in hindsight, were right on the mark. But every situation is different and I think things happen in the time they need to happen for each of us.

For me, my wife was *very" suicidal. Weekly and sometimes daily threats, a bunch of not-seriois attempts, and a few serious attempts and hospital stays. I thought I was helping her by continuing doing what I was doing. What I wish I believed earlier was that I was not really helping her and that I was not doing what I should do if I really do care about her. It sucks and it is still really hard to know that she is suffering. But I wasn't making that better. On some level I *knew* that, but I didn't really believe that.

The other thing I'd say is that I don't think I would've ever gotten to the point of being okay with all of it if I didn't get a genuine break from it to work on and through things on my own. You seem to have that time now, and are taking advantage of that. Keep doing that. Having space can be genuinely clarifying.

I think I understand where you’re coming from. I am being told a lot of things now that I think I will see as on the mark when I have the benefit of hindsight. There are things I was told when she first left that I wasn’t ready to accept at the time but now I see they were right. You are right, things happen when and how they are supposed to.
My wife was also very suicidal, before I knew her and throughout the time she was here. It seemed to wax and wane, but it was pretty bad in the last few months before she left. Even things like her overspending on the budget, gaining a pound or two, or a mean comment from a coworker or family member would trigger a “I’m such a burden I might as well kill myself” episode. I always walked her through these, with the help of her therapist. Now, she doesn’t have me or her therapist, but she also hasn’t expressed any suicidality to me in the limited contact we’ve had. I know she is probably not magically cured, but it’s hard not to think sometimes that things will get better if I hang on just a little longer.
I know that all I did from her didn’t help in the end, as we are in the situation we are, but it sure seemed along the way like it was helping as she was temporarily stable/in therapy, seemingly happier, more stable, etc, until the sudden devalue and discard.
I am definitely trying to take advantage of the break I have now, the time and space of calm. There were so many crises during her time here that I really didn’t have time to stop and reflect on if I was okay, healthy, strong, if things were normal marital issues or something more. I feel every day like some of the fog is lifting, sometimes I miss being in it and having hope for her and our relationship, but I’m also waking up to how dangerous she can be, has been, and likely will be in the future. It’s not really her fault, but it’s still dangerous to her loved one, especially me as I’m no longer idealized like I once was.

This was really key for me. I think it's more than FOG. When you are constantly dealing with a "crisis," it literally changes your brain and the way you think and what you're able to "see." The more you can get out of crisis mode, the more you'll be able to act from a place that is more of who you are and not just who you are while dealing with a crisis. Again, I'm not trying to push you towards anything. But whatever you decide to do, it will be better the more it is from a place of genuine commitment on your part, instead of a place of what you need to do to manage the crisis. For me, the best thing to happen was (a) a break from it all and (b) finding a good T who didn't try to tell me how to manage my wife, didn't give me "advice", didn't try to help me understand anything, but did help me manage my own responses to what was going on and what I had experienced. I never, ever considered myself to have cPTSD. From the outside, the rest of my life was fine. Job, friends, family, etc.  But the extended exposure to constant crisis definitely had an impact, and having a T to help me with that was huge for me.

Very well said. I’m trying to observe myself and my body’s reactions when she does contact me now, when I hear about the crises she’s going through now (she’s still going through them there, I just haven’t heard about any suicidal ones yet. I’m noticing a huge fight or flight response when she calls or texts me, heart racing, panic, tension. My therapist says that it’s a sign that I could be developing or have developed PTSD from all of this, and that she is trigger for it. I never, ever considered I could be developing it either, like you. I definitely don’t like that feeling, and I’m wondering if I constantly felt like that these past 6 years without realizing it.

I agree, I have to make a decision from a place of general, informed commitment. I didn’t know BPD existed until she left, and didn’t know these crises would continue when we got married. Now I know that BPD exists, she has it, and the crises will always continue. I have to decide if I can radically accept that, or if it’s time for me to save myself and any.
I have the break you describe happening right now, and I have an excellent therapist. My therapist is also a religious leader and marriage counselor, so if a marriage can be saved, he is going to encourage his clients to try and save it. But HE is telling me to go NC, divorce her ASAP, save myself. That’s powerful coming from him.

Like you, I was (am thankfully still am) thriving at work, with my friend and family relationships, etc. I didn’t realize how much her crises were eroding my mental and physical health. I’ve also been really surprised how many friends and family members have told me they were worried about me and are thankful she is gone, that they just tolerated her for my sake. I never realized that.

Ironically, when she left she told me to start going to therapy, because she was convinced that I was the problem, that I have ADD, I’m a narcissist, abusive, OCD, controlling, etc etc. I don’t think she expected the therapist to say that I’m developing PTSD from her BPD abuse. It’s uncanny how my therapist has been able to predict her every move. Same goes with a good friend I have who is a psychiatrist that has been helping me predict/manage/expect her next moves and reactions so as not to get so triggered.

Thank you for sharing your story, it helps me a lot.