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I read a common symptom of abuse is that targets of abuse are alienated from their families.  I've read it on here many times, too.

For those of you that have experienced this, can you share what the situation was, how it progressed, and how it was justified in the BPDs mind?

I feel like the frog in the boiling water.  I haven't seen my parents but twice in two years.  That they live two hours away is part of it.  COVID is also part of it.  But I coming to realize BPDw is a major part of it. 

For awhile it was that "we were too busy" or that my parents "can't make plans" and just want to stop by when they are in town.  Then it was that my parents weren't being covid safe ("we don't know where they have been or who they have been hanging out with - I don't trust them!").  Then it was BPDw not feeling "emotionally safe" around my mom.  And then there was a serious incident involving two of my siblings kids, and BPDw disagrees with my parents bout how they handled it. 

So BPDw has not wanted to see my parents for two years.  But she also doesn't want the kids to see my parents without her because she says she does not trust my parents.  Covid conveniently hid this issue, but now it is becoming more obvious to me that BPDw is holding my parents to a higher, impossible standard than anyone else.  She insists she is not trying to keep me or the kids from them, and says she wants us to have a relationship with them, but her criteria for having a relationship are simply unreasonable, illogical, impossible, etc. 

And yes, I know - when the time comes I am going to likely file divorce and get a court order that says I can take the kids to see my parents for the weekend and she can't say boo about it.  But for now I am at a loss.  BPDw feels totally justified.  If she doesn't want to see my parents - fine.  But she would have an issue if I took the kids to meet them on my own, and I think she would still rant and rave if I went to go visit them without the kids.  She insists she would have no problem, but she completely dysregulated yesterday because I spent an hour on the phone with my dad for the first time in a few months.

It does seem to be a tactic they use to attempt to control the environment and the narrative.

Years ago, my uBPDw felt she had been wronged terribly by my parents and my brother, and she was adamant that I was blind to it. She insisted that we (that included me) not see them for a while. I was deep in the FOG and wanting to improve our marriage (believing I could), so I agreed.

Not seeing them wasn't all that hard. We only saw them 1-2 times a year anyway because of the distance between us. At first I avoided phone conversations too, but that never felt right.

We were going through a bad period around then. I put my foot down enough to say that I'm not going to cut people out of my life, much less family. (She had a history of cutting others out.) She didn't like it and probably went through an extinction burst, but I stuck to it.

Soon enough I started to chat with my family pretty regularly again. At some point my parents mentioned it was clear to them that my wife was avoiding them. There are only so many phone conversations you can have where the spouse just "happens" not to be there.

Sometimes she'd disappear when I got on the phone with them. Other times she said she would never go on a trip with them or to see them ever again. But she has yet to skip a trip I've gone on. She does still try to pin it on me, "I hate trips with your family, and I did it just because of you!" That is, despite the fact that she's the one who chose to go. But never mind that logic.

Eventually she opened up to interacting with my parents again. For the most part, she acted as though nothing had ever happened.

After that, periodically she'd still be triggered by my family. This has been a recurring source of tension and problems between us. Over time it started to sink in that it wasn't so much my family that was the problem, but rather my wife's reaction to them.

For the past year and a half, she's been dysregulating far more often. She has badmouthed my family and accused them of having mistreated her horribly. I was there. I know it didn't happen as she says. So I've often ignored it, and I continue to stay in touch with them. We have a daughter, and I continue to keep her in touch with her grandparents.

Eventually, I had to come to terms with the fact that I pick my own relationships and those I want to help our daughter foster. I choose to make my own choices about the relationships I keep.

My wife tried to disparage two of my closest friends too over the years. Similar story as above, and now each of those friends and I are as close as ever. They happen to be among the very, very few people who I can talk with openly about the craziness we have at home.

My wife has also had her ups and downs with her own friends. She got close with our daughter's friend's mom. Then she decided that person mistreated her (oh, and I didn't "support" her in seeing it as she did, I "never" back her up) and went cold. Then she warmed up again, selectively. Now she has a new favorite close friend and possibly confidante. Unfortunately, we'll see how long that lasts.

It’s progress that you are aware of that alienation . It took me many years.
Long story , short…xh and I lived in his parents state , mine across many lines. His choice. 
Pre cell phone days… If any of my siblings  called , right away xh would ask to talk to them , kept them on the phone to the point that when I got the phone back siblings ran out of time to talk to me,    or he would he would be right in my face while I talked.    Or the ones that didn’t want to talk to him, he degraded them to me, like it was horrible for me to talk these people!    I worked it to call my parents only if xh was not home.    The one week a year or two to visit ,  xh would be right in my face to take over any conversations with any one. Not joining in conversation but he would shoo me away to go do something else.
Back at home with xh, this actually started right in the beginning  of the marriage I was forbidden to talk about my family, like current news or history    Any talk on family was just his family. After we had children I again had to be careful to not speak to kids of my family while in his presence.
Isolation and jealousy.  I lost many years of family gatherings and happenings  ….to be the good , no backbone wife. 
Max I’m glad you talked to your dad for an hour, if she dysregulates  again  stand your ground/boundaries , by saying that is what you need, that having your family relationship is important to you.  ( not her ranting, but don’t say it)  And leave it at that.

I would imagine just about all of us here have dealt with this.

My ex would grill me about every single phone call or text I got - asking who it was, how long we talked, what we talked about, if they said anything about her, etc. She would also listen in on every conversation she could. She would then bring up these conversations during just about every fight even if I was talking to another male or a relative - example: SCREAMING "Why don't you go (bleeping) talk to Person A again" like I'd done something wrong by having an innocent conversation with a friend or relative. To this day, I have no idea how I was supposed to respond to that. If anyone in my family wanted to visit us, she needed to know the exact timeframe that they'd be at our house, what we'd do, and what we'd talk about. It all had to be approved by her in advance, and they could only stay for 1-2 hours tops. Meanwhile, her friends and family could show up whenever they wanted, stay as long as they wanted, and do whatever they wanted, and I had no say. If I dared to mention the double standards, she'd call me the most controlling person ever. I can't make this up. It gradually just became exhausting and so stressful to maintain any relationships with anyone.

Whether it's intentional or not, I really think this is one of the key strategies people with BPD use to isolate, control and manipulate you.

I really appreciate the replies.

After the conversation with my dad, W was upset that I talked to him without her present, claiming that it was her business and our kids' business too.  She wanted to know the details of the conversation.  I said that she need to trust me to tell her anything that was important to her, and that my dad wanted to talk to just me, and that this is no different than if she had a conversation with her family member that I would not expect to be invited into the phone call, nor would I press her on what they talked about. 

Another of her complaints was that I talked to my dad instead of listening to her endless gripes, in that whatever her feeling at the moment was more important than me talking to my dad.  She does this with my work duties as well.  The other day she wanted me to come home early (without directly asking), and when I told her I would leave about 45 minutes early unless I got pulled into a last minute meeting, she blew up, and said that my family was more important than any work meeting.  It's not like I was being asked to stay late.

Ditto with all the others, nearly all of us have experienced that.  The closer the relationship, the more evident the build up of the emotional baggage is, and your spouse can't or won't see past that.  First to be disparaged are your friends and your relatives.  Sometimes even a few of the spouse's own relatives and friends.  Eventually it will be you, perhaps even despite you appeasing your spouse and abdicating decisions.  It's all about the emotion-based perceptions, past triggering and need to control and dictate.

Have you tried day visits to your family with your kids?  Meeting at a restaurant, park or some other day activities?  The FACT is that it is older ones and immune compromised that are at higher risk, not children.

Oh, what triggered my separation back in 2005?  My then-spouse was already in an angry mood that day.  Then my preschooler wanted to go outside.  She ordered me not to take him to see his 80+ year old grandparents — next door — and she started threatening my life even before we got to go outside, upon which I called the emergency line, two police officers arrived and the rest is history.

Eventually it will be you, perhaps even despite you appeasing your spouse and abdicating decisions.  It's all about the emotion-based perceptions, past triggering and need to control and dictate.

These are very wise words.

Separation from family and friends isn't just common with BPD (it is common with a BPD relationship)- it's a hallmark aspect of abusive relationships. The motive isn't to hurt the person - and you may defend your wife on this too- and say she's not meaning to hurt them. You would be correct. The motive is insecurity, shame, and fear and the way they cope with this is to control their partner. Because any relationship outside this one is a threat to them, it needs to be avoided. The aspect of projection and denial will find some reason, any reason, than their own feelings.

Rather than dealing with these feeling as their own- they look to you to solve them. Don't see your family and they won't need to feel the fear of that relationship. When you appease them, you provide the solution for this fear, but you know by now that appeasement doesn't solve the marital issues. If it did, there'd probably be nobody posting here.

I observed this  with my parents and appeasing BPD mother, complying with her wishes, became a family goal. It didn't solve the marital issues. I am not saying you need to stay or leave, but if you continue to give up relationships that matter to you, that isn't going to be the solution to your marital issues either.

I began to look into this dynamic after I started to have boundaries with my BPD mother. I also made the mistake of getting angry at her and yelling at her out of frustration. I know now that not only is this not effective but I didn't know that at the time.   I didn't know then that it was possible for the child- parent bond to be broken, but there was no way of having a relationship with my father if I upset my mother. I knew my mother disliked my father's family and that my father didn't see his parents much after he got married. I learned then that all relationships were disposable if they didn't suit my mother.

If you could read the sad posts about this dynamic on the family board, you'd hopefully think twice about this. Sad parents losing contact with their grown child and grandchildren due to the feelings of a BPD spouse. Sad children unable to invite their father to their wedding because if they include their BPD mother, there will be drama. At some point -if a relationship with your parents matters to you, and your children seeing their grandparents does too, you will need to stand up for this.

Ditto.  We've almost all gone through this, and NotWendy's post explains the dynamic at work very well.

In my case, BPDxw mainly fought wiht my mom, but not exclusively.  She also had issues with my aunts, my step grandma, and my brother.  My parents are divorced, and BPDxw would drag my dad into her "hate fests" over my mom; he would indulge her. 

BPDxw could pick fights over my mom... things she said, things she did, etc. regardless of whether they happened recently or years ago, and even if my mom hadn't been over to see us in months.  And there were the same issues you're seeing... BPDxw was hurt I'd call my mom without her... she "felt excluded."  Then when I'd try to include her, she'd be upset and find other reasons not to call.  Or would say she had nothing to say to my mom when I tried to hand her the phone AFTER SHE ASKED TO BE INCLUDED IN THE CONVERSATION.  Then if my frustration with her behavior became apparent, I was "taking my mom's side over hers" and we were off to the races... screaming, door slamming, a week of silent treatment, etc.

Note that since I've been divorced, the attempts at alienating our daughter from my extended family haven't stopped.  BPDxw still bad mouths my mom to our daughter all the time, calls her a witch, told my daughter that my mom hated her (i.e. hated BPDxw), and who knows what else.  We had some issues with my daughter being rude to my mom (calling her by her first name in a sarcastic voice  as BPDxw would), but I can see my D loves her grandma, and it's heartbreaking to see that this sicko would intentionally destroy a relationship between her daughter and her grandma because of her own twisted abandonment and anxiety issues. 

The simple fact is that your parents and some people outside the relationship are easily able to see your wife’s dysfunction and that is very threatening to her.

My parents sized up my ex upon first meeting him and knew he was bad news. It took me a lot longer to get there.

That this sicko would intentionally destroy a relationship between her daughter and her grandma because of her own twisted abandonment and anxiety issues.


Yes, but she doesn't see it like this because she's not thinking " I am going to be hurtful to this person". In Karpman triangle dynamics, she is the victim. The victim of the person who she thinks made her feel bad and she's bringing people "to her side" to rescue her. In her mind, she doesn't think she's doing anything wrong. Then she seems puzzled at the divisions.

One was when we planned to visit my dad's family some time after he died. She overtly didn't like them so I assumed they'd have nothing to do with each other. When she found out, she was upset- understandably that it was visiting them and not her, but then she also said she was angry that they didn't invite her ? But she dislikes them. How is it that she'd want to be invited?

When I look back at events that I thought happened due to some unforeseen circumstance, I recall that at my wedding, there were about 100 of her friends and family and one person from my father's family and that seems odd. Did she not invite them? Or did they not want to come?

Yes this can break up families, unless you decide to not let it.

Thank you all.  The responses have been incredibly helpful to me - and given me strength.

I decided last night (for myself) that I want to see my parents.  We had tentative plans made for this weekend, and my parents had cleared their schedules.  W decided she didn't feel "Safe".  I'm sorry, but I am tired of managing her feelings ahead of mine.  I want to see my parents.  If I have to go alone, I go alone.

So I told her that this morning ad directly as I could.  I reiterated this had nothing to do with her feelings, but about *my* feelings of wanting to see my parents.  She tried to say that she felt abandoned by me because the twins' birthday is on Monday and she wanted to do something tis weekend with me as a family for their birthday.  I told her that my plans with my parents do not get in the way of that - we are talking 2-3 hours of my time.  I told her that it was perfectly reasonable in a married relationship for one partner to spend a few hours on his/her own maintaining family relationships.  I told her that I had no expectations of her or the kids to go, and that any perception my parents have regarding this is between her and them and not my responsibility. 

I was calm, firm, and direct.  W accused me of "ignoring her feelings".  I reiterated that she is free to feel however she wants, but that I am going to see my parents and there is nothing wrong with that, and her feelings are not my responsibility.

Of course she was irate, said a bunch of hurtful stuff.  But I really didn't care.  I felt good that I made a plan for myself and didn't cave to protect her.

Whatever becomes of this - I don't know.  She may decide that she and the kids want to come along too.   She may decide to stay away and move out.  That's her decision.  My decision is to rebuild a relationship with my family because that is a need I have been ignoring far too long.

maxsterling, good for you holding your boundary and going to see your parents, as you want to.

W may be going through an extinction burst. They're uncomfortable, but she'll come out the other end of it one way or another.

You know your parents best, so of course what you do is your choice. In my case, my uBPDw and I went through a rocky period a number of years ago. That's when I found my way here to BPDFamily and started my crash course in pwBPD. Later that year, my mom came to visit, and I opened up to her about what was going on.

She happens to be a psychologist, and she was not at all surprised. I asked her why she hadn't said anything. She said she thought I wasn't ready for it. It was a fair point since not that long prior, I had been defending my W's actions.

Ever since then, my parents have been strong parts of my small support network. When things with my W were better for a number of years, they were there. When things started to get bad again more recently, they were there. And now that I've started to figure out how to get out of this, they're still there.

Also worth mentioning is that my SIL is also diagnosed BPD, and right now she has my parents "painted black", and has been keeping my brother and his kids away from them as well.  It was very eye opening to hear my father describe that dynamic and put myself in that same place.

W mentions over and over that she isn't "trying to keep me from my family".  Consciously, she is not.  But the facts say she is through her actions.  In fact today she said that over and over.  I would say that I am going to see them anyway this weekend for a few hours, and she would give me reasons/guilt trips/ultimatums as to why I shouldn't.  There was no logical scenario in her mind where I could go see them and it not be an issue for her.  Instead she wanted me to satisfy her "feelings" - an impossible task.  She told me that me going would "increase tensions and make her feel worse."  I told her that not going would "increase tensions and make me feel worse".  And then she would say again that she is not trying to keep me from my family, and to imply that she is would make her want to kill herself.

Yes, I am extremely exhausted.  I just need to keep telling myself that I didn't cause it, and cannot fix it.  Her feelings are her feelings and they are not my facts.

Don't get caught off guard and unprepared if/when some sort of emergency or other surprise sabotage occurs just as you're ready to depart to your parents.

Though not the time to bring the topic up now, perhaps a future visit will include the kids.  After all, what can go wrong with a day visit?  Well, unless they get stuck in a blizzard...

What are the ages of your kids?  Seems to me that wife is placing too much emotional emphasis and obligation on their birthdays.

Already starting.  Now kids need a digestive cleanse and W wants to do it this weekend.  They are 5.  Yes they are excited about their birthday, but that is on monday.  3 hours on saturday or sunday does not affect that.

And your spouse can't handle their "digestive cleanse" while you're gone for a few hours?  You can always offer to take them with you...

Me?  I wouldn't limit myself to such a brief visit, but this is a first so okay to cut a visit a little short.  Not next time.

I can't offer an explanation for the behavior or a solution, but I can offer my empathy and understanding to let you know you're not alone.  It is a very sad and frustrating situation that often worsens over time.

I am facing a similar issue and it will likely be the final nail in the coffin of my marriage.  I am making plans to leave.  If your experience is like mine then it will escalate and worsen over time despite any concessions you make now.

In my situation it started as indirect control and subtle manipulation (from making comments about me not spending enough time with my wife and comments about me being "too close" to my mother) to outright grandparental alienation (now telling my eldest son that nanny is "not very nice" and is "horrible to mummy" when the opposite is true). 

I am afraid to ask what your wife means by digestive cleanse for two 5 year olds.

I hope the advice to do that is from a medical provider. Kids can get constipated but a digestive cleanse is not the norm for a child. If it's your wife trying to control when they poop, then that's from her own issues.

I understand the struggle, but your wife's need to control will dominate if you let it. There was a constant " did you ask mother" for just about every request and my father rarely said "no" to us like that. It was "mother doesn't allow it". But what about him? He was the sole provider, but "mother won't let him" give us anything or buy us anything we asked for as kids. We rarely asked for much because as teens we were aware of financial difficulties. He, himself, could have said no, but it was "did mother allow it".

So we assumed he was the victim of her unreasonable demands and as you can imagine, we began to resent her. If we behaved like she did, we'd be punished or grounded, and yet, we had to defer to her and behave?

From my own observations, I would reframe this as " I am allowing my BPD to separate me from my family" because in a way, you are deferring to her feelings to the detriment of your connections to your family. Yes, I know it's tough to have boundaries with your wife, it's very tough. The way we learned to avoid conflict was to just comply with my mother. That's also a choice but it's the choice you made- avoid your parents or deal with the difficult conflict.

It's interesting that your brother is in similar dynamics with his marriage. These kinds of dysfunctional patterns are intergenerational. Without blaming parents- because they also probably experienced the patterns in their families- the dynamics we grew up with have an influence on our future relationships. With both you and your brother in this situation, it does make me wonder about family patterns.

Still, if your parents are caring people and want to see you, and your children, this deserves consideration. Although I do understand how hard it is to deal with the conflict over this, there is a lot of sadness for the ones who have been discarded by someone you love because "pwBPD won't allow it" and also realizing that it's still a choice. 

^^^ Notwendy - I have lurked on these forums for a while and have always been so impressed by your wisdom and advice.  You are a credit to this forum and its members are very lucky to have you.

Just like the frog in the water, that's an apt description.

Accusing my family of being "passive aggressive" towards him, a term he learned at a workplace where they tried to address his passive aggressiveness. He then started accusing everybody around him of being passive aggressive and taking digs at him. Ie. my dad asked him how work was going and he claimed that was a dig at his employment status, even though my dad had no idea he was not working because H had asked me not to tell anyone as he is ashamed. He must have a log somewhere of all the times he's been "insulted" by my family members (in reality, zero times) and during fights he'll bring it up and tell my how awful my family is. So, am I going to bring them around so he can gain more ammunition? No.

I did not realize this was him isolating me from them until someone here pointed it out to me a few years ago. I guess I always thought it would be a more blatant request or demand. He just makes me anxious when they're around. I do go see them at their homes or other places but haven't had them to my home for years. It does make me sad.

Like NotWendy, I am concerned about a "digestive cleanse" for five-year-olds. Can you contact their pediatrician and find out if they recommended it? Constipation happens, but there are natural solutions that don't involve a "cleanse," which can result in decreasing the natural and "good" bacteria that helps with healthy digestion.

Definitely could be your wife's need for control kicking in, in a way that affects the childrens' health.

Your awareness of the difference between her words and her actions is very good -- maintain this focus.

Add me to the list of people who are concerned about this “digestive cleanse”. Both of them? How about giving them more fruit, fiber, and fluids? Not only does this idea sound harmful, it sounds like your wife is beginning to engage in Münchausen syndrome to manipulate you. 

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/munchausen-by-proxy

orders4946- thank you so much- I am glad to be of help.

There is one condition that can occur in 5 year olds, called "encopresis". In this case, one has to remove the backed up stool. But this is a one or two times thing to do to clear the bowel. It's not a regular thing to do. After that, the "treatment" is a healthy diet, with enough fiber and water, and regular bowel habits. They may need to take something to soften the stools until they get more regular but this too is under medical supervision.

https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=encopresis-90-P01992


But here are the warnings:

Never give your child an enema without the approval of your child’s healthcare provider.

Among the causes:

Emotional stress
Feeling stressed with family, with friends, or at school


Very young children have little control over their lives and if stressed - may sometimes control what they can control and that is when they poop. If stressed, they will hold their poop until it gets backed up. Then they can have accidents if there's leakage around the blockage.

Now, if they have a punitive parent, who gets angry at them for having accidents, it make it worse- because they can't control this.

If this "digestive cleanse" is under medical supervision, I would also be concerned if your wife was overly concerned about controlling their bowel movements and presented this in a way that would make their provider concerned about this.

If your wife is subjecting them to this without medical supervision, this is a cause for concern. This is what Cat is referring to- presenting a healthy child as sick.  And even if they do have encopresis, I would be concerned about stress in your home.

Sorry I didn't elaborate - was responding quickly.

Yes the cleanse is from the GI specialist.  They have very serious constipation issues that need to be completely resolved.  This is a one time thing (hopefully). 

It's not W trying to control their bowel movements.

She is opening up to the idea of meeting with my parents.  I kinda expected this. 

Glad the cleanse is from the GI specialist. Hope they get through it well and soon. Good advice above on possible causes of the constipation too.

Don't be surprised (or be prepared) if W decides she wants to come with you to meet your parents. Then you may feel pressure from her to leave early. Or she may feel triggered by something that happens or is said.

It may not make any logical sense to you or anyone else. It may just be a pwBPD's reactions.

Just a friendly reminder. Aside from that, well done upholding your own boundary and investing in the relationships that matter to you. Your parents in this case.

Another thought... why this weekend?  Why not last weekend or the next weekend?  Is it that urgent for this weekend?  If the specialist thought it was that urgent (probably the mother's interpretation?) then why didn't he say to do it now?

It’s amazing how similar these stories are to mine.
BPDw worships her parents. Cannot tolerate my mother. Or any of my brothers. And of course cannot tolerate any of my friends. Attempts to alienate me from everyone.

Once there was a family event (my family)in another state. She said she could not go due to work. I said “well you don’t mind if I go and take my x (my daughter)? Yes.” If I can’t go, you shouldn’t be able to go”

Of course I tried logic. Before I understood BPD. Stating, “Gee if you had an opportunity to go somewhere and experience something and I couldn’t go, I would want you to do that. I would never want to hold you back.“.

So we went. And of course there was a price to pay. And then there was a denial that that discussion never happened. “I never said you couldn’t go to, just said I was unable to go”.

I used to think she was lying because she would completely misstate what happened. Then I realized that when they are in this phase, they truly don’t remember. And so it’s given me more compassion. But after 15 years of this, I am moving on.

 I recently took a BPD weekend course. It was about how to speak to the BPD using dialectical behavioral therapy. DBT.
I quit halfway through. Because you become A caretaker, not a spouse. You have to measure carefully everything you say. You are taught to validate, but not agree with people. So they can say the most horrible hateful things to you, and your response is supposed to be “I see you’re very angry. That must be difficult for you”.

God bless anybody who is willing to so this. But you are truly sacrificing yourself. And I find it degrading.

Yeah I tried that.  Nearly impossible to point out a double standard to a pwBPD.  My wife acts like she is entitled to have a different standard, and gives reasons for it.  Or she will explain how it is a completely different situation.  Like the conversation I had with my dad, and how she claims a "loving husband" would have included her.  I pointed out how she had a conversation a few hours earlier with her aunt regarding kindergarten advice for the kids, and I was not asked to be included nor did I expect to be included.  "Completely different situation" she says...


This turned into a many-hours argument.  I was very direct with W:  "I want to see my parents for a few hours this weekend.  If you don't want to go, I will go by myself.  I am not angry at you for not wanting to go - that is your choice."  This was followed by her saying that she is not stopping me from going (then why discuss further?), followed by a bunch of guilt trips about how I am taking their side over her, abandoning her and the kids, being selfish, etc.  Then another statement about how she is not trying to stop me from going. 


This is the pace I am coming to.  I don't want to be a therapist.  Even Ts have issues dealing with my W - multiple have quit on her over the past 7 years.  She has cursed out and abused Ts.  The "stop making things worse" advice here is great, but I am starting to see that the things we are doing to "make things worse" are simply ordinary things that aren't issues at all for 99% of the people we will encounter in life - we aren't doing anything wrong in the first place.  And the things we can do to help can reduce conflict, but don't make the relationship any healthier. 

Is it possible that your spouse has, to an extent, besieged the specialist with demands to DO SOMETHING and so the cleanse was his saying "okay, okay, let's try this..."

We're remote, we can't know all the background, whether this is a valid ongoing health concern for the boys, etc.

Edit:  This is not to indicate your spouse is outright Münchausen-ish but her intense need to manipulate, influence or control you and the situation could lead her to attempt to pick up such concerning behavior.

Adding to the question... pwBPD can easily paint stories as "always" or "never" when in fact the reality is "sometimes". I've seen my uBPDw do this with her own doctors and at times with our daughter's doctors. When I'm aware of it as it affects our daughter, I step in and correct the statement (e.g., from "always" to once a week or once a month). But when I'm not present in the conversation, I can't be sure what was said.

This was my experience as well... the "tools" to manage a BPDer are valid, but won't stop a BPDer hell-bent on creating conflict from doing just that.   they don't produce long term change or improvement; they're stop gap measures to reduce conflict in the heat of the moment.

I don't mean to downplay them; if you're in a relationship that is physically abusive, or one you can't leave (ie parent/sibling), these can be a lifesaver.  But if you CAN leave because you find it intolerable, and are weighing your options, validating their viewpoint or listening with empathy isn't going to change that.

And we're not therapists... we don't get a break from it.  We don't get to just tell them we won't see them again.  We have our own needs, emotions, and self respect, and it's unreasonable to expect a functional adult, balancing a career and family, to also caretake a BPDers mood swings and high-conflict behavior.

 THIS |--->   
I stayed way too long in my first marriage. If there’s no motivation to make lasting changes, no progress in that direction, no interest in your emotional well-being, you have to wonder what keeps you wanting to try to fix things.

Great post!

I am with Forever Dad on questioning what your wife has told the doctor. Do you go to visits with her?

Were the twins born with some condition that makes them prone to constipation? Yes, even healthy kids can develop this kind of constipation and sometimes it's emotional distress- not always from a parent. Maybe it's not wanting to use the potty at preschool, or the family moves or some other emotional stressor. But there's a disordered parent and family dysfunction here.

I also agree with Forever Dad that the way a pwBPD communicates with the doctor is something to consider. She may be completely truthful but still be relating her views and feelings about the situation.

Absolutely, he should call the doctor himself.

while I was married, BPDxw would always exaggerate our D's health issues, including once insisting she was "projectile vomiting" which - long story - lead to me having to take the poor thing to a hospital at 11 PM on a weeknight to have blood drawn.  I swear her motivation seemed to have more to do with guilt tripping me into feeling like I was not as serious about our D's health as she was (D was fine... she was not projectile vomiting but ended up having to do weekly blood tests for no reason).

more recently, we had a huge issue over getting our D the COVID   vaxx.  BPDxw blatantly lied about what our D's pediatrician told her (claiming he said he wouldn't advise her to get the shot), and sending me a bunch of youtube videos of crackpots making all sorts of claims about it.

point being: BPDers will do and say anything, even when it comes to their children's health.  in the end even that takes a backseat to their need to control and manipulate their partner.

My bpd wife does the same thing with my son. She's convinced that he has a laundry list of issues which he doesn't have. She was on speaker phone with the DR after the 9 month appt, and she was going on a rant about all the things she thinks is wrong. The DR said he is completely fine and of course she knows better and the DR is wrong.

Most likely an underdeveloped digestive system from being born 2.5 months premature.  We have battled digestive system issues from day 1.  I wasn't at the latest Dr. appointment, but the assessment agreed with both the pediatrician and the previous specialist that we saw, and a few books I have read on the subject.  The difference this time is that they are 1/5 years older, so there is a little more urgency in being more aggressive.   Emotional stress could be a factor, but I think it is more of a factor in the continuance of the issue rather than the cause. 

I'm not saying my W has not done this.  I just don't think so in this case. 

The times she has done this I would categorize it as "excessive concerned mother" and sometimes bordering on wanting pity for herself.  Most of it is fueled by comments from friends/family/social media.  There were a few times we took the kids to the doctor when W was overly concerned about something only to have the Dr tell her to calm down and the kids were fine. 

There was a time when W was concerned about S's behavior when he was 2 and that he was on the autism spectrum.  Part of this concern came from her family (who sometimes joke about anyone being different as being autistic), part from social media, part from other friends.  So she took S to the pediatrician, who said that she could not diagnose anything, but could give her a referral to a place that specializes in autism.  So, we took him there, and the specialist "flagged" him as possibly autistic, and recommended additional evaluation.  Of course, the additional evaluation was not covered by insurance (I think the whole thing was a scam to prey upon worried parents).  We wound up taking them to a place that was covered by insurance, who did a whole eval and came back to say our kids were in no way autistic, and could possibly use some OT and speech therapy, but it was not serious.  So we did speech and OT for awhile, and both of those therapists were quite upfront in telling us that there were things our kids could work on, but they were very minor.  But W did go around saying she has "special needs" kids for awhile. 

And when the kids were about 6 months, they weren't breastfeeding.  W refused to give up, and rather than accept the issue was her body and not the kids, she listened to a quack lactation consultant (another profession that can prey upon worried mothers) , other mothers, social media, and a family member who said the issue was that the kids were "tongue tied".  Our pediatrician said that was a fad, and basically a crock of dung, and that while there are a few genuinely tongue tied kids, it was rare.  So we went to a different pediatrician, who pretty much diagnosed every kid as tongue tied, and did laser surgery to correct it. 

My take on both of these situations is that they had little to do with BPD and instead with a mother who is worried and unsure of herself.  And with a dad that has little experience in these things and would defer to "experts" and a W who has a degree in childhood development rather than trust his gut.

defer to "experts" and a W who has a degree in childhood development rather than trust his gut.

The only thing I can add to this is to consider trusting your gut more. Your wife may have studied child development but she also has a mental/emotional instability. I am glad this digestive issue is under medical supervision.

I also think your wife genuinely loves the children and also can be a concerned mother. One thing to keep in mind is that few people are all bad or all good. Family members with BPD have positive qualities, which likely attracted their partners to them. Few relationships are all bad or all good. The relationship dynamics are the issue and each person decides how much is manageable or not.

The Karpman triangle puts people in either victim, persecutor, or rescuer role. I think the predominant dynamic is BPD person in victim, partner or other family members in rescuer, however, most adults are not victims. There are only two real potential victims in the family and that is the children. They can't make choices for themselves. So if your wife can manage, great, but be cautious.

Today we did go visit my parents at a neutral park.  Kids and W all went.  W invited her friend and friend's daughter. 

I was quite happy to see my parents.  My mom looks much older than the last time I saw her.  Kids were happy to see them, too.  W?  She talked to them and was friendly.  I learned one of my mom's best friends of many years passed away two months ago, and generally felt bad about not being in touch more the past few years.  My parents are in no way bad people, despite what W may claim sometimes.

But beforehand, W was downright nasty to me.  Everything I did was wrong.  Criticized for everything, lectured, ordered.  I took WAY more than I have recently for the purpose of trying to understand the stress W is under and simply not wanting some kind of issue before seeing my parents that would complicate the day.  After the meeting was no different.  Impossible expectations of me, no-win situations, etc.

And when I say she was upset about everything - she cursed and screamed at me in the car (yes in front of the kids) because the route to get there went by the hospital that the kids were born in.  Mad at me for not taking us on another route, mad at me for explaining there is no other route, then mad at me for not warning her in advance of our route.  Then she made plans with her friend about lunch saying we would decide when we got to the park.  Two blocks from the park she was mad at me for not stopping for food on the way. 

Upon leaving, W cursed me out for not telling her I moved the car (no more than 50 feet from where it was).  I didn't even remember that I had moved it 4 hours prior.  Then the way home she had to tell me that my dad had said something that upset her.  The thing he said really was one of those things that would not be a big deal to 99%+ of the population (at least not one worthy of brining up).  Then she was mad at me because the sun was in her eyes and that I could not find another route where the sun was not in her eyes.  The way home was west, there was one road, and it was sunset.  The last 10 minutes home I nearly bit through my tongue listening to all this.

Right now she is mad because it was Sunday night, we hadn't gone food shopping for the week (in part because she spent hours wasting my time by picking fights with me), and I had to go out at 9:30.  Turns out the store closes at 10pm, so I went to another store, and it also closed at 10pm. So, I wound up at walmart rushing to buy what I could in an hour before they closed.  I wasn't able to get everything on her list, but most important was the breakfast shakes she wanted - or in her mind needed because she is unable to eat in the morning or prepare her own food (because the kitchen is too dirty, she says).  Lets not mention that she has the option of going out and getting her own breakfast shake..  So she is mad at me for not having time to find the shake she wanted because the store was closing - and I was there late because she spent so much of my time lecturing me on this or that.  Actually, what she is really mad at is me enforcing a boundary against abuse and telling her that I would not sit there while she continued insulting me for 15 minutes about the breakfast shake. 

All in all - I am glad I got to see my parents, glad my parents got to see my kids, and glad my kids got to see them.  Whether my W had a good time or not is not my business.  None of that is even remotely within my control.

Your posts remind me of my mother who will get angry if we get the soup with the wrong kinds of noodles in it or something like that. Sure, she could get her own, but she hasn't gone to the grocery store on her own for as long as I can recall. By high school, I was running to the store for her.

I am glad you saw your parents. Maybe next time, go on your own with the kids. Make it sound like you are doing her a favor- a day all to herself. Then you can have a peaceful time with them and not have to deal with this kind of thing when you do. But it's a big step that you saw them. I am sure they were happy to see you and the kids.

It was mutual dislike between my mother and my father's family- but they tolerated her and didn't say anything about her. It was after my father passed away and we were adults that I heard their side of things- and only because I asked.

On my mother's part, they were helpful  to her because we could go stay with them on school breaks. And it was wonderful for us too. The kids will get older- and able to do that at one point.

I can't drive in the car while my mother is yelling at me. It is distracting. I know you continued because you wanted to get to your parents. However, I get rattled when she does this. I pull over, stop the car and tell her I am turning around if she continues to yell,  because I can't concentrate on the road. It's worth a try- and stick to it if she continues. I don't live near her now so this doesn't happen often, but being in the car is an opportunity for this kind of thing as it's impossible to walk away and so you can consider this kind of boundary. It's not a boundary on her. It's an "I can't drive when you yell at me so I will stop the car and turn around". It's an action on your part.

Sounds like you weathered the storm as best as can be expected, with a pwBPD.  

Reading through this was painful!  I feel bad for you, your parents, and your kids, for what they've gone through.  It's tough for kids to make sense of these situations as well, because their inclination is to love and trust their parents, and grandparents; when there's conflict there, you can almost see how torn they feel.

Hopefully your parents understand and are sympathetic to your situation.  

In my own situation, I finally told some of my family members that had been on the receiving end of BPDxw's outbursts that I suspected she had a personality disorder and not to take anything from her personally.  And also that I understood they hadn't done anything wrong, and that I was not blaming them for the fighting.  

I was told that message was MUCH appreciated, and helped them deal with the random text-message bombs and unpredictable anger from my XW (she would start fights randomly, and sometimes seemed to almost go out of her way to engineer them, making a request for something, and then exploding when she didn't get a response as soon as she expected, or even if she did!)  At the time, I was unaware how much chaos BPDxw was attempting to sow.

I agree, reading through this was painful  I’m happy for you that you got to see your parents. It’s a start!   Next time , as Notwendy said , just you and kids. Not w and her friend and friends daughter. It was like everything she did for this day was a distraction from one nice thing that you wanted/needed.
But she wants this shake for her breakfast and you jump on it.
Parallel situation, my xh of 27 yrs never went to the grocery store to get something I needed. I had learned to don’t dare ask. 
One my thoughts prior to the road of divorce was looking at my past life accomplishments, what did I do?       I was a doormat for my spouse.

My W will be out someplace, then send a text message of "is there anything you need while I am out?"

In my mind it is "if there is something I needed and did not get myself, I would have asked."

W will come back later and tell me how considerate she was and how I am not ever considerate of her because I don't ask her whet she needs when I go out.   If I don't - there is a reason for it and I am sure you all can relate.  If I ask, it never becomes easy, either it is not a quick conversation when I want to make a quick run to the store, or she comes back with a long list.  Or when I ask, something negative comes back in the reply, or perhaps the store is out of something or I don't have time, and then W is mad that I asked. 

The meeting with my parents actually turned out well.  It is the work leading up to it, the drive there, and the drive home that were exhausting.  I think W really did want to go, but she also wanted to complain about it and use it as a vehicle to insult/abuse me. 
 

It’s great that you got to see your family. When we step away from it we realize how crazy this really is.

When we are in it, sometimes we don’t notice it because of the changes are so incremental. Then years later we wonder how we got there.

Again very similar. Text messages from BPDw, “do you want anything at the store?”  Multiple times. Such that it becomes annoying. And I say nicely, thanks honey if I wanted it I would ask you or would’ve gotten it. But I appreciate it. Then I hear about how helpful she always is.

But when you ask for something you actually want or need that really would help you, then you become a burden.

The other constant thing is, “are you OK?“ Multiple times. I mean like five times within 10 minutes. And I would say, yes I’m OK, but if you keep asking me if I’m ok I won’t be OK.

And this sounds weird, but obsessive thanking. Maybe that’s not BPD but just a personality trait. But I will be thanked 5 to 6 times within five minutes for something. And I will nicely say, you’ve already thanked me multiple times, I appreciate that. 

What’s hard is these people are usually very intelligent. And so it’s really a chess match. Which it shouldn’t be.

Every time you solve a problem, a new one comes up.

Years ago my wife told me that she thought I was drinking too much. Continual nagging about my drinking. Keep in mind, she drinks too . Then I thought, well maybe she’s right. So I stopped drinking for six months.

Things got actually got worse. Then drinking was not the excuse, but I was too demanding. Or Controlling, or on the go too much….

Constant complaining. About everything and everybody.

You cannot use logic. Every time you think you solve a problem a new one comes up.

I think the reason we stay in is because we sense progress. My wife threatened suicide the first year of marriage. She has never done that since so I thought things were getting better.

But the problems simply manifest themselves in different ways. But they’re always there.

Sorry for late reply, but I had to do it, because this man had a point. What I cited above is exactly how I feel and it shows what must be done in order to keep a bpd-relationship going on. For once, I don't want to be a caretaker or a punchbag of someone that refuses to see the problem and seek help.
Granted, not all bpd's are the same in rage/symptoms, some are high-functioning and have more calm/normal moments. We shouldn't generalize, but what Bch42 said above should be pointed out to anyone that tries to overcome the situation.

Ever since I posted this a few months ago, that is where I have been.  I think one needs to think about what "functional" or "healthy" means to them when it comes to relationship.  For years (even though I was told better) I somehow felt that eventually my wife and I could get to a place that "worked" or was at least functional.  Now I know that just isn't possible.  I am going to have to put up with some amount of abuse as long as I am in this relationship.  Right now my W clais she is "getting better".  I certainly don't see it.  But to her, and probably to her Ts, she is "getting better" because she is doing more on her own and not suicidal.  I think that is what Ts aim for in their patients - if the patient gets to a place where they are not suicidal and function on their own, it is a success.  Same goes for us here.  If we get to a place of some kind of stability in our r/s where  we can resume some of our happy lives and avoid the worst of conflicts - that is a success, even if we feel more distant from our partners.  And we should also know that divorce/separation could also be considered a success.  I know if my wife and I separated, many family and friends would tell me congratulations on getting out of an abusive relationship.

I agree with everything in the last two posts.  For me, it chips away at my soul to think that the best anything will ever be is reprogramming myself so I can make life tolerable in the presence of someone that will never have the capacity to reciprocate in a healthy way.  It's a very lonely place to be.  Even if someone could wave a magic wand and make all of her problems go away, it's kind of like that saying about the plate that has been dropped and glued back together so many times.  All the cracks are still there. 

Sometimes that feeling of loneliness really washes over me. Especially after a few calmer, less abusive days. Sometimes I miss the times when I was in the fog. I really believed that I had found my match, and was hoping for her strong emotions to disappear. I didn't consider if I was in a dysfunctional relationship. I didn't think twice about having children with her. In a way I miss that dumber version of me. But I also like the wiser version of me.

I think it's more about personal growth than to reprogram yourself. Learning relationship skills should not be about changing yourself- rather more about being authentic to yourself rather than bending to appease the partner.

Many books on relationships point out the concept that we tend to choose a person who "matches" us emotionally in some way. Who we are attracted to and who is attracted to us is complicated. Someone else may have felt initially attracted to a person but due to the dynamics, the relationship would not have lasted. How is it that these ones did? I realize that love bombing, or being young, could lead people into these relationships and to stay but then, some people have more than one relationship with a disordered person.

One thing I have read is that it can be a match of boundaries. Someone with emotionally healthier boundaries may not have felt a "fit".

It's also been written that if someone leaves a relationship without doing personal work, they are more likely to repeat the dynamics with someone else. The personal changes have a payoff for you, not the other person.

Each relationship is a unique combination of both people and other circumstances- finances, children, etc. Both leaving and staying are complicated choices.

And we should also know that divorce/separation could also be considered a success.

BPD is on a spectrum with some behaviors being more severe or present than others. Not all pwBPD are abusive, or have addictions.  These can be seen in pwBPD but even on their own, are major issues. It's not a failure if the relationship doesn't last. Each person makes the best decision for their particular situation.

Wow.  This rings true with me. 

In my case, it is more like the frog in the boiling water.  You go in slowly, no signs of trouble, then once you are in so far, what looks like the "best" or "easiest choice" is no longer clear and only gets one in deeper.  Dealing with a pwBPD can completely and quickly overwhelm your rational thought process.  If my now-wife had not moved in with me initially, 100% sure I would not be with her today.  But I offered her a place to live while she relocated to my city.  I expected her to get an apartment of her own after she got settled.  She had no intentions of ever moving out.  I excused the early conflict to her being stressed from moving to a new city and normal relationship adjustments.  6 months later she was in a psychiatric hospital, and since then it's been mostly FOG because deep down I know she can't take care of herself, and I would feel extremely guilty forcing that upon her. 

I assume with her previous r/s her partners bailed when they saw a way out because they saw the first signs of neediness, enmeshment and abuse.  I saw those, too, but somehow I thought I could manage those, and by the time I realized I couldn't all the doors out now feel like mazes.  For now, it seems like my best action is to have boundaries, be true to myself and my needs, know I am not being insensitive or hurtful, and let her decide if that is what she wants.  She can claim all day that I am being selfish and now I know I am not.

Max, it sounds like you are still orienting your life around what your wife wants. And as we know, pwBPD’s wants are mercurial and typically unmet, because they are looking for something to satisfy the emptiness within.

What do you want your life to look like?

What do you want your children’s lives to look like?

Is this a healthy environment for them to grow up in?

Why are her wants and needs more important than the wants and needs of three other people?

I'm trying to really embrace the insights from Cat and notwendy.  I very much feel the emptiness of the calm days.  And I am very much rebelling against a lifetime of caretaking as the best case scenario.

I'm also very much realizing that I was in this relationship for a reason, and I definitely fed the chaos machine from my side just from my earnest caretaking and JADE-ing.  But I must have needed/wanted this on some deep level.

Things are suddenly good here at my house with my uPBDw saying all the right things.  I don't trust it, and I am working hard not to get swept away.  She just brought up moving all of us back to her home country, which sends up huge red flags.  Anyway, I'm just going to keep working on myself (and not agreeing to move) and see where it all lands.

The last few posts felt like you were all living in my head!  When I first realized what was going on with my uBPDh I told my therapist that it was really difficult for me (a strong-willed woman) to realize that I was tolerating treatment from my husband that I would never have imagined I would tolerate, and certainly wouldn’t advise anyone else to tolerate.  

It is lonely and even for people who know that my husband has issues, there is no way to explain the depth and complexity of the situation unless you have experienced it so it is emotionally very isolating.

The BPD often creates physical isolation AND the truth of it is that I have also created isolation because I don’t want to have to experience or explain to someone why my husband is “being like that.”

That's more red flags than the Soviet Army.  I'm in a similar situation, and this is a line that I will not cross.  In my case, W sees our house as the source of most of her problems.  Of course I know this is not true, because she had problems before she moved in with me.  It's the reason the kids have toilet issues.  It's the reason she doesn't cook anymore.  It is the reason she is always in pain.  It's the reason for her headaches.  None of these are true, and I need to hold on to that.  I'm not against moving.  But I am against moving simply to satisfy her "complaint of the moment".  The basic facts are - house prices are so high now that whatever we could afford would be *barely* better than what we live in now, even with the sale of the current house to use as a down payment.  So W wants to sell now and rent.  Well, we can't rent anything better now for the same price we are paying in mortgage.  W doesn't understand that a house is a huge purchase, and making the wrong financial move in your late 40s is difficult to recover from.  I certainly am not willing to take the risk, especially with with a tenuous relationship.  I should also point out that W (and probably most pwBPD) see things opposite - that "external" things are the sources of problems and those need to be changed first to look at anything else.  For W - she says she can't work on our R/S unless we are moving to a bigger house.  I say I won't move into another house with her unless the r/s is better.

That's why this site is so good - I need to hear that the flags are that red.  My therapist is adamant about this too - don't let her talk me into moving, especially out of the country.  I'm a citizen now of her home country, and I could work there - so it's not totally unrealistic.  But that's exactly what it is - externalizing her own inner problems.  And I can't do that to my kids.  And honestly to myself since I need calm to work on myself.

The funny thing is that she is the one who convinced me to move to the US to be by my family (who she now refuses to see) and then years later to buy our house in the middle of the pandemic (I own 100% that I agreed to the moves eventually).  I actually wanted to move either back to her country or closer to a city for years and she said no.  Now it's flipped and it's like I'm the one keeping her in small town American prison (we're still in a big urban area, just at the edge).  It's infuriating.

Anyway, thanks for the perspective.  I also relate to the house blaming.  My wife did that in our previous rental for years and years.  That's so tough to deal with.

Ask yourself if this is a decision you can recover from.  Assume you move, and 2 years later you divorce, where does it leave you?  That's what makes it easier for me to draw the line.   

If she convinces you to buy new furniture, it's a financial loss of a few thousand.  If she convinces you to buy a new car, a few 10s of thousands.  Both of those could be bad decisions that you can recover from, and in the long run you still have the furniture or car. 

Moving is a different story - potentially you give up nearly everything if you move.  My sister was convinced to move to a different state by her NPD husband thinking it would improve their r/s.  3 years later, she got divorced but could not move out of state because of children.  Eventually she did get the court's permission to move back with the minor child, but her other two kids are over 18 and chose to remain out of state.  The same could happen to you. 

I'm also worried about our living arrangement. We rent an apartment, and W has started to get frustrated about not owning a place, and she would like for us to move to a house. But at the same time she is quite satisfied with the work she's done with creating a beautiful home where we live now. Renting makes it easier to plan a separation, and I really don't have the motivation or the energy to buy a house with her. What would be the best way to communicate this to a pwBPD?

- Honestly tell her that I'm not motivated to buy a place when we are struggling in the r/s?  (She would probably tell me that my unwillingness to go forward is harming the r/s)
- Buy time by being passive? (While figuring out the future of our r/s)
- Tell her I love our current home? (I do like it but I wouldn't want to set foot there ever again tbh)

Separate of triggering some other issue (only you can say how she would react to this) buy yourself some time by telling her that homes are very expensive right now and you're waiting for the real estate market to crash.  Maybe "market correction" would be a more diplomatic term.

If you're seriously considering parting ways, don't buy anything.  You'll never recover the transactional expenses in the way of market appreciation in just a couple of years.  This is especially true with the looming downturn that is on its way.

 

I love this and added it to the list of favorite quotes that I keep.

this is a good post.

I'd add that there's also a truly insidious element to BPD relationships, because almost no one enters into them really aware of the implications.  And pwBPD are not forthcoming about their condition and often in denial of it, and even if they were, it's probably not really possible for them to explain what it's going to be like to the non-disordered partner; you really have to live through it.  

Family members obviously don't choose to enter such relationships, but still have the painful path of discovery romantic or friendship partners do.  

From my own experience, I'll say It's not just love-bombing that gets pw-BPD attached... they are simply not honest about their emotions and what's said and done, and for me at least, it was hard to see that dishonesty for what it was.  I believed enough of her excuses that I was mislead into accepting some of the blame for her own behavior, and her own happiness.

Although I always felt a little uneasy and didn't really trust her, it wasn't until a few months after two years into our r/s (at which time our daughter was 1 year old) that the persistence and irrationality of her issues convinced me something was very wrong, and it wasn't going to just get better with time

I don't think it's possible to do anything to control the response when saying no to something no matter how much you sugar coat it. Saying no to BPD mother is extremely difficult, because of how she reacts and also how I react to her behavior. It's really tough and if I don't feel I can deal with it, I most of the time say yes to them. However she will also make unreasonable requests - and I have to say no. The response is very hard to deal with.

So to the question: how does one person's need take precedence over others- I think the others are easier to manage saying no to.

What do you think is the dishonesty?

so in my experience, I'd see the sudden rage and angry outbursts, and be caught off guard and surprised.

She would later claim all sorts of reasons for them, and I'd think "Okay, I could see that..." and figure she was going through a tough period and if I stuck with her, we'd figure it out and this sort of unsettling behavior would stop.  She was not being honest about her emotions and behavior / though TO BE FAIR, given the nature of BPD, that's just not reasonable to expect..

When we met, she had finished grad school here, but was struggling to stay in the US, extending her student visa by taking dodgy community college courses and borrowing money from friends.  

It wasn't until things changed but the same pattern of behavior continued, and evolved to include conflicts with my extended family and demands that I cut contact with them because of her perceiving them as threats to her and our r/s... it was only THEN that I started to suspect there was something going on mentally with her; some sort of dysfunction or aberrant behavior

I don't know how else she could have explained how she behaved and how it was how she was, not stress, not heat of the moment ... but taking a longer time to evaluate the relationship, and recognizing that her needs for commitment was a red flag in itself.

I thought at the time I could recognize when a person has serious mental issues; I was unfamiliar with BPD though, and the nature of things like that.  Her situation... grad school, some professional achievements, some friends in common, "overrode" my suspicions and concerns.  I assumed she was just going through a rough period... not that her "abandonment" and "separation anxiety" would risk alienating me from my parents, siblings, aunts and uncles, etc.

Notwendy's comment on people entering into relationships with pwBPD because they match us emotionally, or otherwise through love-bombing and what not got me thinking more about it.

And that's why I said there's a more insidious element to it.  Maybe some of us just had weaker boundaries than we should have or other personal issues that made us susceptible to it.

But I think there's also a more basic dishonesty in how pwBPD approach relationships.

Non-disordered people are looking (generally speaking) for a "partner"... maybe only sexual, but someone to meet the needs they can't meet on their own.

pwBPD are looking for partners to meet ALL their needs, including basic emotional needs and self image needs that a healthy person has intact.  And to that end, they're willing to get into relationships and preserve them by any means necessary: lovebombing, lying, bullying, crying, threatening, etc. 

And you can't really know what the reality of a relationship with a pwBPD is going to be like until you're in it... like I said above, I went from seeing some anger issues and excessive emotional reactions to problems that she passed off on the stress in her life b/c of her immigration and financial issues... which were understandable to me.

It's crazy to me that in a year, she had moved on from those issues into pushing me to isolate myself from my family, getting into shouting matches with my mom over silly things like not removing shoes in the house, and demanding to me that I stop seeing my parents because of x, y, and z "reasons" and it was all a sign she could never trust me, and I couldn't love her "enough.

Very insightful here.  A non disordered person enters a relationship assuming that their partner is not disordered, and plays by the same "rules".  It is normal for us to think that other people generally have similar motivations and desires as us.  Sure, things may not align, but between two non disordered people we understand this and move on.  If we get into a r/s with a pwBPD, we have no reason to assume that person is disordered, unless we are trained to spot the disorder.  BPD behaviors on their own are easy to rationalize on a broader context - nons sometimes have those behaviors, too, but the reasons are more rational.  So when a pwBPD exhibits a questionable behavior, we naturally conclude there is a rational explanation.  By the time we see a pattern, we are likely somewhat enmeshed. 

My wife seems to want her partner to replace the role of her parent and depend upon her partner for everything.  Yet at the same time she resents that dependence.  For example, she expects me to be available for her for anything 24/7.  If I fail to answer my phone for 5 minutes because I am in the shower, a work meeting, or sleeping, she is very upset - even if all she wanted was to know if I wanted something from the store.  A non-disordered person might get frustrated at this, but not angry for days.  That's because non disordered people see that their frustration is based on something irrational and unreasonable.  It is not reasonable to expect my partner to be available on the phone 24/7.  It is impossible.  At the beginning of the r/s, I might see her frustration as understandable because it is not that different than what I may feel.  But when the frustration turns to resentment, and it repeats, I slowly learn I am dealing with something different. 

And back to the thread topic - the same happens.  At first W may hesitate about visiting my family because she has social anxiety and finds my mom annoying.  Well, my mom is annoying at times, and I also have social anxieties, so I can relate.  But only when it happens repeatedly, and when her "annoyances" become less and less rational, I start to recognize the disorder.   

Yes, that's where I was going with my "insidious" comment.  They take advantage of others' human decency when entering into a relationship, and seeing how much they can get away with.

I think this is subconscious for them.  I think there is no intent to "get away" with anything.  Instead, it is a survival mechanism.  Just as nons assume everyone else is not disordered, I think a pwBPD assumes that others are more like them.  That's why when my W goes off the handle about something completely illogical, she turns anger towards me for not showing the same strong emotion.  To her, there is something wrong with me for not being as angry as her.  I don't think a pwBPD is trying to control or take advantage - they think that is how life works and all normal people operate. 

True...

And after one day (or one hour even) of rational behavior, a part of me once again assume that W is not disordered. The difference recently I think, is that I can separate my logical memory from my emotional memory. I can logically observe how quickly my emotional experience is archived to the past. I know something will happen again but I need a new similar experience to confirm that it is still relevant.

Example:
I remember that my wife has had strong negative feelings about my FOO, but now she seems to appreciate them... Emotionally, I now think that there will be no more problems with this matter... Only when I have a new experience with her expressing strong negative feelings regarding my FOO, I will know right then, that this problem is still relevant... but also this new experience will be archived to the past... and the cycle repeats itself.

Just as nons assume everyone else is not disordered, I think a pwBPD assumes that others are more like them.

I think this explains the miscommunication. As PeteWitsend mentioned- a certain deception. Whether it's deliberate or not, we interpret them through our own sense of interpersonal "rules" and they seem to go by different ones.

I tend to agree with Max that it's survival mode, and in survival mode, ethics are suspended. I think everyone knows that causing physical harm to someone is wrong, lying is wrong. I think most of us are raised with some form of those "10 commandments" as basic ethical rules and we assume a common basis in others.

But if we truly felt, in the moment, that our very survival was threatened, we'd suspend those rules in self defense. If someone was attacking us, we'd physically fight back, lie, to defend ourselves.

I think, for the pwBPD- when dysregulated, they can feel as if their very survival is at stake- when it is not -but they feel it is- and react accordingly. It's difficult as we can not control this, but we try- walking on eggshells, appeasing, avoiding upsetting them. It's also difficult because, even if they feel their abusive behavior is justified, it's not, and for the person on the receiving end, potentially harmful.

I think that is one aim of DBT- to learn to manage feelings better. I also think BPD is on a spectrum so this can vary.

Because we don't see others through this survival feeling, their actions are unexpected. Perhaps to them, we can inadvertently and mistakenly be perceived as harming them.

The same thing along a different vein, my uBPDw can question (and thereby insult) anyone that is an expert on topic because of this behavior.  She can be told something as a statement of fact by someone that is absolutely qualified, and then turn around "well maybe it's this instead" but she doesn't have the knowledge to even propose what she's thinking.  She's just throwing excrement at the wall to see what sticks and because she has a need to mark her territory.  If the expert proves their point, she will continue to cast doubt because, in her world, everyone operates on the same parameters as her -- which is that they are guessing without knowing.  I suppose this falls into the category of projection?  I hope all that rambling made sense.

Yes, and also my BPD mother will believe the statement of an acquaintance over something we say. When we were looking at colleges for my kids,  we carefully looked at how a college fit the child- did they have their major of interest, cost, location. We visited some that were near BPD mother and so stopped by to see her. We'd mention a school and she'd say "that's a terrible college" based on something someone said- not having ever looked into it herself. Or "I spoke to so and so whose daughter says it's a good school".

At one point I looked into some retirement communities I thought my parents might like but they weren't interested. I went to visit some of them to check them out. Then the neighbor mentioned their mother was living in one and that one became "the best one" but BPD mother had not ever seen it.

It's frustrating as she can't seem to perceive good intentions. I would not have suggested an place my parents might like without checking it out first. I would not send my child to a college that didn't fit their needs. Maybe she assumes I was guessing and not knowing.

I agree to some extent.  I think they definitely assume the world is a certain way, and works according to their lived experience.

I think they learn - either through surviving early childhood trauma, or simply a genetic predisposition to emotional disorder - certain "survival" techniques to get what they want or feel they need.  Trial and error.  It's interesting in my case, BPDxw would sometimes tell me if I didn't take care of her, she'd leave and find a rich guy who would.  Now... aside from her delusional thinking here - what rich guy wants to tie himself down with a 30-something basket case who has a young child? - I figured she would try to do this. 

In the event, she ended up with a guy who was younger than her (I am a few years older), who was an unemployed construction worker at the time, and she had to buy him a car, and help him get established (according to things I've learned).  It's almost like her takeaway from our divorce was not that she needed to treat her partner(s) better, but that she needed to find a guy who was dependent on her, not independent of her and established, so he wouldn't be able to leave her. 

They may not consciously think of it as deception, or try to "take advantage" of others, and they may believe everyone else acts that way, and so they either dismiss concerns from others about their behavior, or ignore them altogether.  But they are deceiving others and taking advantage of them nevertheless.

But they absolutely do seek to control their partners' or family members' behavior, mainly to keep them dependent on them, for fear of abandonment. 

Indeed, BPDxw occasionally broke down and admitted to me her goal was to keep me from seeing my family members because she could see how close we were, and she felt that meant I could leave her for them (which is insane b/c she was my wife, and they were family).  But the irrationality of her emotional thoughts was just an insurmountable barrier to resolving this in any way. 

Along these lines, I think facebook is even more toxic for pwBPD.  They are so hollow inside and have such poor self images, they're constantly comparing themselves to their friends and others, and facebook is like heroin for that.  I had lots of bad nights when BPDxw saw someone took a long trip, or got a nanny, or some new shiny thing... we might have discussed the night before our budget and what we were saving for, but all that would go out the window when she saw something someone else had. 

I would also notice BPDxw would get upset or annoyed if I or someone else brought up something she didn't know about.  It could be anything - a movie, music, band, TV show, book, concept, etc.  If she wasn't familiar with it, she'd have some hostile response to it being discussed in her presence... it was stupid, you were immature, the people who did that were shallow or fake, you think you're so smart reading books, but you can't even let her take a month vacation alone, etc. etc. 

Well, my W recognized this and quit FB for that reason.  The feelings are still there, but at least there is no longer the constant source of triggers.  She will sometimes call a family member or friend, and then she wants to spend an hour talking/arguing about something in that conversation.  For example, a friend is moving, and next she wants to spend 2 hours talking about how we should move, too.  So much time and so many conversations were spent on W venting about something someone else did/didn't do.

I married in my mid-30s, had a child in my late-40s, refinanced my house to pay out her equity in my mid-50's, my mortgage gets paid off in my early 80's, if I live that long.

Just like having children, jointly owning a house is a huge complication when contemplating a divorce.  Children can't be undone, but buying a house now (before a divorce) can be avoided.