BPDFamily.com

All, I am completely lost. My (our) story is below. Any advice, personal stories, etc. would be greatly appreciated as I determine how to work through this.

I made a commitment to my wife in sickness and in health. There is a lot of sickness going on right now. And I intend to continue my commitment to her. That being said, we have two children (newborn and toddler).

We have dated for 9 years, and have been married for 5. There were red flags I did not pay attention to throughout our relationship, and for ignoring those and enabling her, I hold myself 50% responsible for where we find ourselves today.

When we first met those 9 years ago, I felt a magnetic pull like never before. It was like mother nature pushed us together, fueled by chemicals and imagination. There are amazing qualities in her when she is healthy that shine through; however, when she is "triggered", finds herself lost in her paranoia, etc. it is the most destructive thing our family experiences(experienced).

We had a few bumps early on, which I now view as emotional dysregulation and straight up abuse. The abuse started small, such as throwing glasses/cups and picture frames, and ultimately "ended" with my wife accidentally striking our son when attempting to hit me when I told her that her allegations of cheating were absurd.

That event led to me filing for divorce and seeking custody of our child. After a 6-month separation, I was awarded primary custody at temporary orders. Prior to that temporary orders hearing, she would not discuss reconciliation at all, and repeatedly told me to "f*ck off" and all sorts of other things. She made it beyond clear that we would NEVER get back together. She "flipped" everything she did to me, and made herself out to be the victim. She trashed me to her friends and family with false allegations. She was the abuser within our house, but projected herself as the victim to everyone outside of it. Once she made it clear she was "done" and reconciliation would never happen, I slept with two people in an unhealthy attempt to "get over her." It was unhealthy.

When she came back around after I got primary custody at temporary orders, I told her I had slept with one person in an attempt to be honest with her and let her know what had happened, but I did in fact withhold that there were two people. The reason I did not tell her about the second is because (i) I didn't really know this person at all and it was more of a purely physical hook-up based on looks , barely remember her first name (if she even gave me the real name, and (ii) there was about a 10-year age difference. I did not want her to dive into a spiral of thinking she was no longer "attractive to me", etc. and I withheld the information thinking it was best -- I have grown since then and understand that full transparency required full transparency if my motivation is to give her truth. She admitted to being abusive, and told me literally everything I wanted to hear, including promises of therapy.

Point being, we were not divorced yet, and I was "unfaithful" to her after months of trying to reconcile. She took this to mean that I was not really in love with her as I "gave up" and was "trying to screw other people while proclaiming my love to her." She did not see it as an unhealthy attempt to move on, but a move to have my cake and eat it, too. We decided to reconcile, out of love, but also in an effort to give our son the best chance at having a "nuclear family" and to be tucked in by both parents every night and see our support every day. While we were reconciling, she slept with a random person in a one night stand, "to end it all" because she was so hurt by my distance/slow process in reconciling. It should have been clear at this point, that reconciliation was never going to work, but I was lost in the drama and we expedited our reconciliation after this point. She knew she had lost me, and apologized profusely, and promised therapy for the 10x time in our relationship. We moved back into the same house (marital home), and proceeded to rebuild our life. We managed to get into a good spot before our son's first birthday; however, the boat was severely rocked when she (i) found the social media profile of one of the women I slept with and (ii) message her about our hookup.

What I had told the girl when I cut things off was "I have a chance at reconciling with my wife, and it's the right thing to do because I love her and it will also provide our child a chance at growing up in a loving home" and she proceeded to tell my wife that I "was only getting back together for the kid". This added another layer of doubt, paranoia and general mistrust to our already complicated situation. This woman also told my wife about my second act of unfaithfulness. My wife then went through the trauma of me being unfaithful 6-months into our reconciliation, and it brought it all up as if it just happened. Again, I would not have done this in the mental space I am now, but back then I justified it with the fact she was clear for 6-months that she would never speak or see me again, and that we would never, ever be together and she was 100% certain with that.

She strongly believed I was only with her for the kids, didn't understand why anyone would love her, thought my love had to be conditional and attributed those conditions to (i) for the kids or (ii) sex. The sex was amazing, and connected us on a whole different level. But the sex actually represented a connection that was emotionally / chemically fueled that we lacked in the general context of our relationship due to her verbal, physical, emotional abuse, etc.

We worked through a lot of painful issues, and finally came to be at a "new normal." We eventually got pregnant with our second child. After the birth of our second child, there was two weeks of "bliss" but then the paranoia and violence came rushing back, around the same time (in quantifying time) of our first child. ~4 months-~6 months. I ended up having to restrain her one night to keep her from hitting me, and I saw her actually smile at the restraint.

I told her in January "you have 30 days to get into therapy and stop being abusive or I am leaving with the kids". I did not consider my audience because I was at "wit's end", and I recognize I flared up her abandonment issues. She proceeded to apologize profusely, but ended up leaving with the kids while I was working upstairs. She always plays the victim to outside parties even though she is the abuser in our house. She started spreading false allegations to her friends and families, and even proceeded to lie in court about false abuse allegations and got a member of her family to make up complete lies as well.

We went to court over a protective order / restraining order, and I ended up being awarded one. It provides two-years of forced no contact (physical or verbal), and covers myself and my children. Where it went further is it mandates she do (i) a psychological evaluation; (ii) attend a battering course; and (iii) attend a course that teaches the impact of children witnesses violence in the home. She has supervised visitation.

She has convinced her family (which she has previously accused of sexually, physically and emotionally abusing her) that I am some kind of monster I am not. She convinced her friends the same. I have been trying to hold our family together in hopes that she "comes around" and initiates therapy and understands her inner demons. But I do not understand why I continue to try. It is definitely codependency, but I also know how capable she is, that if she actually went to treatment and came clean to her friends and family about her violent nature that we could be a great family. But it is all in her hands and she continues to play victim, tell people I "tricked" the court and feel like she was cheated. I cannot for the life of me understand if she KNOWs she is lying or if she is believing her own narrative in order to protect her ego.

I love her. Still to this day after false allegations and her web of lies / mental gymnastics. I want my family together. We made a commitment to each other and to each of our children when we brought them into this world. But she NEVER shows up when our FAMILY needs prioritization over her false ego/sense of self / victimization.

I have severe guilt for the situation our children are in, and her lack of accountability is infuriating.

Next steps are divorce, and we cannot even really put that on hold because we are not allowed to talk for two years. So there is no chance for reconciliation or couples therapy, etc. Because she is a threat to my safety and the safety of our children.

HOW can she see the light? HOW can she come to terms with herself as an abuser and tell the true story to her friends and family? I am made out to be more and more of a monster each step of the way, but everyone is giving her confirmation bias because they are "back in her life.

I've had the kids for a month, and will continue to to serve as their primary care taker while working full time. Meanwhile, she is out with friends and more drinking, etc.

The entire situation is making me feel in ways I have never felt before.

Her background:
Adopted
Was in foster care before being adopted
Foster family busted for child abuse
She has claimed adoptive family have sexually, abused and verbally abused her
She kicked out her adoptive family before our last divorce, and has since spun that to her friends and family that I "isolated" her and they all hate me for it
Was raped by an ex
Had an abortion after that
Was in violent relationships before me
Had a miscarriage with another ex
Has been physically violent with me throughout our relationship
I tried to love her through this, but realize I've enabled her.
We went all the way to signing divorce papers last time around, but we shelved it because she made tons of promises that she didnt follow through with
I tried to act in grace and love and forgiveness, but the violent outburts included and were around our  kids
I told her I was at wit's end and going to pull the plug
This scared her and she ran with the kids
She claimed all sorts of false allegations involving financial manipulation, physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, isolation, etc. on my part in the court of law -- this hurt me so much
I've had the kids in my possession and the court has given her supervised visits
Court mandated battering class, psych evaluation, impacts of violence on children
She is hurting herself and our kids by avoiding the truth and its destroying me from the inside.

What would you tell someone in my situation?

Welcome to the forum, Moby. Wow! Are you in a complicated situation, or what? A lot of what you are saying sounds familiar to me, having been in a similar place. Per my ex, everything was my fault, complete with convincing arguments to family, friends, whoever would listen. The night we finally broke up she my son's girlfriend, then attacked me twice with a knife (fortunately missed), all unprovoked except by her own rage. Then she called the cops to have me arrested. I waited in the house, expecting to be taken to jail and then having to deal with that. To my surprise the cops understood what was going on and arrested her instead. That wasn't the end of the story...but...enough said.

Very briefly, the best advice I can give you is to try to straighten out your own head. You cannot make your W change. You can only change yourself. You should take credit for understanding mistakes you have made (we ALL make them!) and calling yourself co-dependent. First steps. But with so much confusion and such a difficult history, you need to get yourself onto firmer ground, emotionally and in terms of practical decision making. If you haven't already, I'd suggest you read a couple of the books listed in the "Tools" section of this website, and if you haven't already, get your a--- into therapy.

I appreciate your guidance. I wish I learned more about what I could do to control the environment before things got so bad. I tried to walk on eggshells / minimize the triggers, but that wore me thin. In reality, there is a lot of helpful information on here about how to validate and help without enabling.

You have control ONLY of your own actions and behaviors

.

Moby, that's a lot.  This sounds like a super hard situation.  I sense your disappointment at your marriage and family not being what you imagined it could be and that is completely understandable.  I'm usually all for keeping families together and working through issues, except for when there is physical abuse.  You have to protect yourself and the kids so it feels like you are doing the right thing.  Absolutely.  If you're not seeing a counselor I think you 100% need to start talking to one about codependency.

Additionally, do you think people really believe her about the victim stuff?  I mean, the court ordered you full custody.  That should tell her friends and family something (especially when a mother gets the kids taken away).  Sometimes when a crazy person is complaining people just smile and nod and agree, even when they know something is up, because the situation is awkward.  Could this be the case? 

I have no idea to be honest. She removed herself from her family for 3+ years, and claimed her parents sexually, physically and emotionally abused her. She claimed all sorts of false allegations during our last divorce process, and part of our reconciliation was that she set the record straight with them. She told me she did, and I blindly believed her. So in the background of the past 2 years, they have viewed as "strong for going back for the kids" wherein reality she is the abuser and not a victim. She went to these abusive parents with our kids until I showed up. So it gave me very big doubts about the abusive childhood she has explained to excuse her violence all these years. Why would she go back to this place to feel "safe"? I am starting to understand I likely cannot trust a single aspect of her past, especially her stories about exes being terrible to her.

So her parents have "their baby" back in their life after she "escaped" from the person she claimed 10x different forms of abuse of -- mind you she didn't bring up any of this in court last time, has told police I've never laid a hand on her, etc. She claimed I "isolated" her from them, even though I have text and video evidence of her removing them due to claims of abuse...We did not play the videos or texts in front of her parents during our trial this time around because it seemed improper to rock the boat just to prove a point, but we did play them and show them with just my wife, myself, lawyers and judge present. So they see "their baby" back in their lives and blindly believe her narrative -- I have tried to reach out to them for a month before our trial to bring truth to the forefront and they have ignored all my attempts. Further, they would need to see the actions of their daughter as a byproduct of a personality disorder or similar, that they would have been partially responsible for creating. Further, she grew up witnessing (allegedly) a lot of the things she does now (throwing stuff, hitting, screaming), so they would need to understand their own past and their part in making her who she is. So I am sensing cognitive dissonance that says (IF she is BPD or something, THEN WE attributed to that, SO we cannot accept the situation) coupled with (The more we HATE your husband with you, the LESS you HATE us for the ALLEGED ABUSES). It's a clusterf***.

She was the abuser > claimed she was the victim.
She always takes my attempts at reconciliation / prioritizing the family as being "controlling".
She seeks confirmation bias and goes to people she has removed from her life previously, and they are all too willing to belief and cosign her bullsh*t just to "be there for her".


Re: therapy -- I am meeting with three therapists this week (one is a family member, one is a subject matter expert, and one is in my town for ongoing treatment).

Awesome, glad you're able to talk to a therapist (or 3). 

Okay, based on what you said it sounds like you don't have to worry too much about your reputation and maybe you're more worried about your wife acting publicly as victim than you need to be?  Afterall, you got the kids... and that says it all. 

I am thinking long-term family dynamics -- birthdays, graduations, special days, weddings, etc. The kind of stuff she told her family, is terrible. I want my kids to have healthy relationships with family, especially given COVID, etc. and lack of strong networks/family support systems during this time. Further, she is going to feed my kids or her family will feed my kids all kind of bullsh*t about me. An older friend of mine dealt with this, and it culminated in his son wrongly hating him for made up accusations at 15-years old, and the son proceeded to become suicidal. The drama and stress severely impacts kids. I want to avoid it all by living in truth. But she for some reason doesn't make it about the kids, she makes it about protecting her false story and ego via an all or nothing mindset.

I am also wanting what is best for my wife. Which means facing her issues, taking responsibility and working on herself. The court ordered evaluation was totally unexpected, but welcomed. It made me "more of a monster" in her eyes and her family's eye, but it might actually be what she needs. She has thanked me multiple times for "knocking her off her ass" and thinking about herself and her situations better.

The issue with her network giving her confirmation bias, is it will preclude her from hitting "rock bottom" so she will just be able to monkey branch/swing on and on and on. For instance, absent sending the proof directly to her family, she has convinced them that I "made her think she had an abusive childhood" ... ... ... I honestly think she believes the lies, and it makes me more and more terrified of her mental stability.

I cannot "make" her do anything -- but I wish there was a way to "reach" her. It would be so dysregulated that she would be screaming at me or punching me or biting me while I was holding our newborn kid, and I would say "look at her, I'm holding her, she has no idea what is going on, just that you're angry, why is she not enough for you to stop? why are we not enough for you to stop?" and she would just keep going until guilt/shame set in, and then of course it was my fault for pushing her to that point, etc.

I see my two kids, and the pain they are going through. I see my efforts and know I have done all that I can. And I see her spending her time and energy calling herself a victim instead of working on herself and holding herself accountable. I see her $1000s of useless purchases that could have been therapy. No matter how angry I get at her, I love her more than that feeling. I just want her to be healthy. Not for me, but for our kids. She is repeating 'the cycle' she and I have worked towards breaking. She has no incentive to come clean to her parents, and no incentive to come clean to her friends.

I wish there was an incentive for her to come clean or she had the maturing and self love to build a true life instead of perpetuating the idea that she is a victim, needs sympathy, and kick the "woe is me" attitude (which her friends she bounces back to all subscribe to).

At the moment, your wife has supervised visitation, correct? Who is supervising? Is it a relative, or is it a county/social worker?

Under supervision, she should not be discussing her "victimhood" with the children. If she does, she could lose even supervised visitation.

We would all hope that completing the psychological evaluation and any subsequently ordered counseling /treatment in order to have none supervised visitation with her children would be enough of an incentive for her behavior to improve. That may never be the case.

County program supervising.
You are correct re: she won't discuss victimhood during this period.
I hope the psychological evaluation is taken seriously. She was indeed ordered to follow the treatment recommendations ordered.
My lawyer and I (he has represented me against her multiple times) are fearful she will attempt malingering, but we just have to wait and see.
It is clearly outside of my hands, and I appreciate you boiling it down to the points.
I am unable to think clearly at this time.

What helps you clear your head? Are you exercising, meditating, walking with the children, spending time with friends?

I have completely lost my sense of self over the past 9 years and do not know what I enjoy besides spending time with my stbxw.

I sold all my music equipment (prior hobby) to pay for drug testing of my children.

I am working 24/7 to keep the money coming in while watching them with my mom (their grandma). There is really no free time. The company I work for is a startup. It is a really trying time.

I am trying to workout / do things for me, but the time is not there.

It is going to be very important for you to carve out some time and space just for yourself, even if you do nothing but sit quietly for 30 minutes and listen to some good music.

Moby, you definitely need some recovery! Sounds like you are so exhausted it's hard for you to think. Take GaGirl's advice and at least give yourself some R&R time.

It's only human, after struggling for years catering to a difficult person, to feel demoralized and start to have your sense of self eroded. You obviously are sensitive to the pain and fear underlying your W's behavior. But you cannot fix that. Only she can, and there is no way you can convince her.

I would suggest you not worry about her family, at least at this point. It sounds to me as if you are trying to do triangulating (the books have a lot about this) with them, and that is rarely helpful, even if you succeed for the moment in getting them on your side.

Your only chance for helping your W is to help yourself. You are absolutely 100% entitled to this! Be aware, though, if you start to get into a better state of mind she may at first have trouble with it, because it can appear to be a frightening unknown. She's used to you responding to her in ways she can predict, and that gives her a feeling of being in control, which equals safety. If you change, she feels out of control.

But ultimately, your improvement may open a path for her to improve. Not something you should rely on. It takes years, and it shouldn't be your main motive for improving yourself, but it is all there is.

Great advice.  I love nothing more than doing absolutely nothing for 30 minutes.  Sometimes I actually have to be mindful about it though, and actually tell myself I'm taking the time while I'm taking it, otherwise it flys by and I don't even feel like I got a break.  If that makes sense?

I wish I came across this website and the "What can I do better" stuff a lot sooner. The way I gave her an ultimatum was the worst way to approach the situation, and assured our destruction. The SET idea would have fixed 50% of the issues, as it would have allowed me to validate her while improving our situation. I am kicking myself / guilty for not doing better on my part. I let her treatment lead me to feeling victimized and put all the pressure on her, which she is incapable of accepting.

I have made time for two days to go on walk and workout. I appreciate all your guidance / feedback. I am open to any ideas. I literally feel like a blank slate, and I need to work on myself a lot.

We all make mistakes. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here! Even the most experienced will readily admit they don't always get it right. Don't bother kicking yourself. Try to start to learn how to do things better. You being human, it will take time and practice. Forgive yourself for your mistakes and move on.

I want to ask at the 6-month or 1-year protective order check-in to allow for virtual couples therapy. I cannot shake the feeling that she is strong enough of a person that if she gets a true diagnosis at her psychological evaluation and takes steps in therapy that our family would be better together than apart. How would you reconcile this with the facts of our relationship?

I cannot stop thinking about her, and knowing that I contributed negatively to the situations by not learnings methods to help her. I am definitely codependent, so my plan is to continue therapy.

The kicker is -- we cannot talk pursuant to the protective order. It is eating me up. I love her and miss her, and want her to know it isn't the end if she initiates and makes progress in therapy, holds herself accountable and stops unconsciously/consciously playing the victim / painting me black. Realistically, she probably "hates" me right now, sees me as 100% of the issues due to lack of self accountability, and likely "feel free" or as if she left an "abusive relationship."

I want our kids tucked in every night by biodad and biomom. I want her to see my continued love and patience. I catered too much to her in some ways, and that led her to disrespect me more.

I have learned so much since the start of January (our separation) and cannot get over the fact I did not learn about all this sooner before the final blowup.

TL;DR: I am hoping for a chance to lay ground rules and a plan/path for reconciliation, but understand it won't happen because she is not allowed to legally talk to me. Further, she hates me at this point and has already started with false allegations. I want her to see love in action and commitment to help her cross the bridge, but cannot subject our kids to a whirlwind of a future. My only hope is she realizes the objective truth of the situation after a court ordered psych evaluation, but doubt she will be honest and will attempt malingering. It is out of my hands, but I won't even consider meeting someone new, dating, etc. I don't want to "waste my life" for 2 years, but cannot even discuss reconciliation with her that she isn't likely open to at this time.

The sad truth is that if she does indeed have BPD, it’s unlikely that she will agree to long term therapy, which, other than divine intervention, is the only way that people with BPD significantly improve. Most people with BPD refuse to make the commitment to doing long term therapy due to the shame and self loathing they feel, and fear that therapy will make them examine parts of themselves that are extremely painful. And as of over seven years here on this forum, I have yet to hear of a case involving divine intervention.

That said, relationships with people with BPD can be greatly improved by their partners learning the Tools (above on the green bar) and utilizing them. You can learn them, but as of present cannot practice them with her, but you can practice them at work and with other people in your life.

Hope is one of the hardest things to give up, especially when our partners are intelligent and well-functioning in other areas. However we’ve got to come to terms with the fact that they are deficient in certain emotional patterns and unlikely to ever change. Things can get better, but it is a rocky road.

Wow this hit deep and I feel it much.  Thank you for typing that out.

What Cat said!  One of the things I always go back to when I'm angry at my uBPDw is RADICAL ACCEPTANCE.  It can be freeing and somewhat empowering.  Only you can change. 

I know I am "wired" differently via my past experience, but I tend to see pain, especially "extreme pain" as the path to a solution to a better life. Whether or not she approaches her subconscious does not change the fact it is controlling her life. I have tried to love her through it all so that she can see I will help pull her out of her shame and self-loathing; however, you are likely correct. She has refused to actually attend therapy. Now she is only going to go through the MMPI per a court order, and I doubt she will honest (attempt malingering for good). I am not looking for divine intervention, but I would do anything for 5 minutes of real talk with her, with her authentic self. She has referred to the "scared little girl inside of her" controlling her life, and wants to let her go. But I think she is most held back by fear of admitting she has "done bad" without labeling or defining herself as a "bad person". She gets too caught up in her head about "not being worthy of love" instead of being in the here and now and experiencing it. The fact was ... if she got an understanding of her personality disorder, and had a game plan to a better life, I would have walked that path with her. But her innate fear of accepting any responsibility for her situation, pushed her away from ever obtaining clarity. It's a nuanced self destruction, and the monkey branching / rebounding to unhealthy friends and family provides the confirmation bias she is consciously / subconsciously seeking that there is "nothing wrong with her." I care this much because I feel at times I love her more than she loves herself / when she is not loving herself, and because I care about my kids. I am prioritizing my kids over her, which has led to the sticky situation above. I refuse to accept at this point that she is the average of "most people with BPD" -- she is honestly one of the most gifted people I have ever met. If there is a success story out there, it is her.


Likely true, but hard to hear. I don't care if it's 1/3/5 years. If there is a rocky road to better, I will walk it with her. But only in a way that don't subject our kids to the rockiness.

I am trying to get us (our family) to go this way: >^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>
All of her conscious / subconscious actions and lack of personal responsibility are taking her this way: <V<V<V<V<V<V<V<V

I think I was finally painted to black.
It drives me crazy that instead of accepting herself as a physically, verbally and emotionally abusive wife/spouse and seeking help for the benefit of our family, that she painted me as the abuser and ran back to family that abused her and friends who don't know her.

After re-reading everything -- this was really helpful in my current state to carve out time for myself.

It seems like you're continuing to think that a person with BPD can acknowledge their faults, take responsibility, apologize and agree to long term treatment.  Now that you're starting to learn more about BPD, how might that change your expectations for how much your wife can change? 

My hope is on a post-initiating treatment perspective, not how she is *now*. I understand the wall she is hitting, but in understanding her in the context of reasonable expectations to have of her, I see that her "deficiencies" are not entirely her fault, and that is why I hold out hope. Hope that she makes peace with her past and starts the healing journey. The life in front of me keeps changing for the better since she's been gone. But it is bittersweet type change. I just got an offer (today) for a new role that pays 60% more, and would have provided much needed help at home for her to relax more and attend therapy / heal. I think I am struggling with radical acceptance. HAD she taken me up on my thirty days ultimatum (which I realize was wrong), we would have a true diagnosis, treatment plan, marriage counseling "contract" between us and NOW more money coming in each month, ability to have help around the house and with the kids, and spare income to rediscover ourselves. But she is not here to reap these benefits and this potential life. Instead she is working three levels below the level she was at prior to being a SAHM to afford her own place to live / legal fees / divorce fees. All because she cannot accept responsibility or hold herself accountable. I feel guilty "blasting off" on a new life path with our kids and "leaving her behind", but recognize its her decision and in her hands.

CONGRATS on this opportunity!  Hope you can take time to celebrate it.  It must be hard not having your wife around to join in the celebration. 

@MobyCloud - thank you for sharing your story. I see a lot of yours in mine.

I'm 30 y/o and my 27 y/o now ex-GF (dated for 4 years) with diagnosed BPD is an incredibly lovable woman, and I have had a very hard time letting go after she discarded me.

I was the one who first became BPD-conscious between the 2 of us, and I did my absolute best to gently broach the subject, research the topic/gather information, suggest treatment possibilities, etc. Similar to what I think you're describing, my mentality has always been "yeah, my partner has this mountain to climb, but I want to choose to accept her. I want to help her with this complex challenge, I want to show her that it's not so scary, and encourage her to put in the work."

But I'm coming to grips with the fact that meaningful change is internally motivated. My desire to see her work on herself and get healthy, my effort to educate myself, my willpower to stick it out through the dark days, are completely independent from the most critical piece - does she think this is the problem that it is? And is ignoring the problem altogether (potentially losing you/her family in the process) a less discomforting outcome than dealing with the suppressed feelings of shame & self-loathing (which we can assume she would have a difficult time processing)?

I can greatly relate to your line of thinking - for me, if I'm trying to "put myself in their shoes", and my partner was coming to me with a message of "hey, here's a big issue that I see you're gonna have to deal with, and I know it's intimidating but if you want to commit to doing something about it I'm here for you all the way"...I would be grateful! It would make it easier to embrace the ugly truths about myself because the person who I'm afraid might leave me is saying that they're sticking with me despite the issue...

But the problem with that logic is that I can't in any way predict how that message would be interpreted by a pwBPD...and like you alluded to, that fear of acknowledgement of who they really are can be so strong that it "wins out" over the desire to maintain relationships with people they claim to love the most.

I appreciate your kind words. I care more about bringing her on this journey and a different path and ability for us to take a different path than any kind of celebration, but I definitely understand where you are coming from in your kindness!

This is her brain.

I feel this...I'd give up a lot in my life (more than I already have) to feel like I'm securely walking the path with my ex-pwBPD.

It's interesting the language we use - you care more about bringing her on this journey / this different path that you see as an option that leads to the brighter future we all want to believe exists.

Part of my "radical acceptance" has been that my role in her journey is minimal, even if she wants me to be a part of it. I can't learn anything for anyone else. I can't develop the skills that she needs to be in a healthy relationship (empathy, forgiveness, accountability) for her...

Even if I make a list of what those skills are, the best techniques to developing them, ways to practice, etc. None of that matters if she doesn't want to buy in. And believe me, I've tried to help in what I thought were positive ways. Researching topics, developing lists of ways to express feelings in a healthy way, but my effort & determination to help her realize self-improvement has very little effect relative to her own willpower. And without a genuine desire to change, without that internal motivation in the heart of the pwBPD, we are foolish to believe that things will be different.

Thank you for sharing your journey with me. I appreciate you.

She finally signed the protective order today.
It doesn't change anything, but I got an email from my lawyer while working (few times she isn't actively on my mind).
It made me throw up.
The reality of the situation and what I've had to do to protect my kids.
I love her but I feel like I just made the ultimate sacrifice.
This process is so challenging.
On one hand, it could be the thing she needs to go through in order to heal.
On the other hand, it could push her deeper into her false sense of self and push back her healing for a long time.
Regardless, because she is violent and non trustworthy, it is what is best for our kids.
Still having trouble with radical acceptance.
I find myself day dreaming she shows up at our door and just begs for forgiveness with a plan on how she plans to fix everything.
I keep thinking what I would do if I was in her shoes, but I am the type to prioritize the kids and family over myself.
I hate myself for loving someone so much who can't prioritize the "right" things.
I am not being judgmental -- but I think there are a lot of people who agree falling on one's sword is worth it for the greater good of the family.
I would rather be truthful, vulnerable and with my family than fake, lonely and estranged.

She could show up with the most detailed plan imaginable, but could she commit and execute that plan over time?

It depends on what actions she has taken prior to showing up.
If there were not kids involved I would give her one last chance.

Packed up all her stuff for the second time in our relationship.
I even moved all her stuff back and dealt with it last time we reconciled.
Kind of hit me -- I am always having to deal with all the ramifications of our dysfunction and she doesn't.
Over it.

Sorry you're going through this Moby. 

It is all good. I am "getting there." I love her and wish I showed more compassion for her situation while we were together. If she felt more secure, I assume she would have had an easier time approaching a therapist, therapy, healing, etc. I hope she finds herself. Even if that means she is a different person, wants different things, etc. Even if that means there is no reconciliation in the future. I truly love her, and that love is what keeps me wanting to "bring her to the table." I have been told it's codependency, and a small part likely is. But at the end of the day, if I was going through what she is going through, even if she will not admit it, see it, or believe it, I would want someone to be as loving and compassionate as I am trying to be. And as I have tried to be. The kicker is we have two kids, and our oldest is already severely impacted by what he has heard and witnessed. If kids weren't in the picture, I would risk the worst case scenario, but with kids in the picture, I have been forced to (happy to do it) do what is best for them even though it annihilated a relationship hanging by a thread.

What do you mean by worst case scenario?

A lifetime of repeated acts of violence and rage, but cannot and will not subject my kids to that.
Sometimes, as we are aware, these situations can escalate to some pretty horrific outcomes.
In a way, it's physical and mental self-sacrifice for another, albeit no amount of taking from others will fill the void she feels.

Yeah, that's so true.  Well I just want to say I admire you understanding her flaws and illness and still choosing to love her.  The saying "love is an action not a feeling" resonates me with me in my own marriage.  Sometimes the things they do is so hurtful and frustrating. 

Thanks for your kind words. I still struggle with the fact her inability to hold herself accountable makes her paint me black and say “I” was the toxic one or “we were toxic together.” It just isn’t true. She was physically violent, and I cannot reconcile how someone can hit someone they love or threaten to leave all the time, etc. She cannot admit to herself that what I’m doing is what is best for our kids to prevent them from continuing the cycle she’s subjected them to. I am not sure she can make progress in any potential therapy or self work without acknowledging what she’s done. For instance, I gave her an ultimatum — my heart was in the right place but my mind delivered the message the wrong way. Her lack of security or fear of abandonment made her abandon me first, taking the kids, out of fear. She then proceeded to make up stories about all sorts of false abuse. Was my ultimatum delivered harshly? Yes. But it doesn’t change the fact our relationship suffered more from her abuse (all kinds) than anything I did at wit’s end. Her friend said she needs to hear a sincere apology. I am not sure what I need to apologize for. I looked through our entire relationship history and saw myself as a loving and supportive husband. I had started to question that due to her gaslighting and abuse. But I know I deserve better. Anyways, if she can make me think poorly about myself, she can clearly make herself believe those lies, too. I don’t see how she can make progress unless she sits in truth. I’m going to give it two years to work on myself before moving on. I still hold out hope she sees the severity of the situation, accepts she more is than 50% “responsible” and work to make amends for the good of our family. That should give her time to make decent progress. The kicker, again, is I can’t discuss any of this with her or even gauge if she is interested in it. It’s like a 0.01% chance. My lawyer and my therapist are both telling me to just cut bait. My lawyer doesn’t want to represent me a third time. We called off the divorce three years ago because she promised to get a true diagnosis and go to therapy. She had such a fear of facing herself in the mirror she would rather ruin our relationship. Her friend also told me she “doesn’t believe in the institution of marriage anymore.” But…she never really showed up (because she didn’t love herself). Anytime she would be held accountable she would react with rage or withhold herself in an attempt to punish me or push me to apologize for things I didn’t do. How is that giving a marriage a fair shot? How is that doing your part? It is hard some days to think of this stuff. This kind of thinking and these kind of comments just continue to show me that I made the right call, and that she isn’t being honest with herself. She doesn’t realize the institution of marriage, my commitment to her and my love of her is why we tried a second time. It’s like saying you don’t trust buildings after you detonate one with C4.

The hardest thing for those of us involved with pwBPD is to realize that they don’t have BPD, they are BPD. By that I mean, BPD is the lens through which they see the world. Perhaps that helps in understanding why they are unable to self reflect accurately and have no desire to be accountable when asked to do so.

In addition, merely reflecting upon their own behavior can be so utterly painful, since they have so much self loathing and shame, that they cannot hold themselves to task to do so.

It’s such a bridge too far that *normal people* just cannot grasp the intensity of their inner pain when asked to reflect upon their actions. Thus, they project upon others, rage, attack, self harm, and all the other undesirable BPD behaviors that we all are familiar with.

This is exactly why I continue to try to show love and keep compassion for her. So she knows if she ever walks that path I will never hate her or feel as bad about her as she may feel about her self. And why I tried to “love her through it.” I have had to do what was best for our kids, and it gives her a platform to say I am doing it for control, or to hurt her, this that or the other. She cannot understand or admit to herself that the current situation IS best for our kids because she is not healthy. So I have to have some insidious reason for taking these actions (which I don’t…)

I pray for her every morning and every night. Religious experience is new to me, but I’ve found peace starting and ending my day wishing the best for her and her journey. It helps keep negative feelings regarding her away, even though there is a lot of issues that would make most people to “go there.” I continue to stick up to her to some of my friends who get snippy about her and my entire extended family. I’ve even rejected money from family in this hard time because of some of the conditions or some of their negative input. She didn’t choose her upbringing and I cut her a lot of slack there, but it becomes harder each day she doesn’t help herself. All of the above is why it rocks me to my core when she blamed me, claims I was abusive, etc. I honestly don’t know if she “believes it” or if she is consciously lying/manipulating.

My gut tells me (I) since I told her I would leave with the kids she (II) abandoned me first, and because (III) she knows she was abusive and that would be my reason for leaving, she (IV) claimed I abused her to (V) control the narrative as much as she can and (VI) solicit support, sympathy, “backup” from her friends and family to (VII) add protection to her false sense of self by building (VIII) enough touch points to avoid truth and live in her false world she created. Strikes me as a really broken person who would go through all of that to avoid the truth and lose her husband and kids in the process instead of looking at herself in the mirror until she knows and loves who she is, and realizes we’ve been there for her the entire time.

I wish one of those times she told me “I don’t know why anyone would love me,” that my only response was to pull her close and tell her “it doesn’t matter if you don’t know why, the fact is I do, our kids do, and we would love to help you understand that if you’ll let us” instead of just thinking it was a thing she was saying. I didn’t have the perspective of her condition then, and I really wish I did.

But to be fair, my therapist's point of view is that if she did the above, it would not have been a calculated thought process like I proposed. That kind of makes her sound psychotic, which I did not intend to make her out to be. What they think is actually going on is the emotionally wounded inner-child was never let go of, made peace with or understood their family of origin childhood trauma. So after idealization phase, she became triggered and this led to devaluation. This led her false-self (unconscious, maladaptive coping mechanism from her childhood) come up and "protect her" (again, unconscious vs. as calculated as I wrote it above). There may be a degree of "disassociation," but it's been referred to as magical thinking compounded by intense emotions. So she felt a lot of pain, but couldn't understand why because she lacks understanding of her past (which if she had, she would not act so dysregulated), so the pain is projected out and leads to the splitting. I made it sound like the splitting was a conscious decision, and I've been steered away from that thinking which helps me understand it is a true underlying issue. Trying to think about it too much from my perspective makes the actions seem much more nefarious than they are, wherein reality she is (a) hurt; (b) doesn't understand why; (c) doesn't know how to effectively cope with the feeling and the lack of understanding; (d) this leads to the maladaptive coping mechanisms, etc.

It doesn’t help to overthink it from a *normal person’s* perspective. That’s still not accepting the fact that people with BPD are wired differently on an emotional level.

Even with years of therapy, which few pwBPD are willing to engage in, there are so many remedial issues to resolve about emotional development which didn’t occur in during the appropriately formative ages.

Sharing for anyone who has said this reminds them of their situation:

When I miss her / am ruminating, I remind myself she was physically and verbally abusive to me and never apologized or showed an ounce of remorse. This abuse included throwing things at me, hitting me and biting me, at times putting our children in danger (punching my face while driving a car). Still to this day she does not admit to it nor has she apologized for it.

When I feel guilty for finally pulling the plug, I remind myself that yes, a broken family unit is not ideal for children but research shows it is a better outcome than witnessing family violence growing up.

When I feel guilty for letting it all go, I remind myself that every counselor I could called or emailed told me couples therapy is actually not recommended with an abusive wife, and that the abuser should get therapy on their own first. And I begged her and she promised to get therapy throughout and never followed through. She proceeded to gas light me, tell me I am a narcissist and never worked on herself.

I remind myself that I did everything that I could to support her until it became detrimental to the kids.

I remind myself she never showed one true ounce of remorse or sorrow for her actions.

I remind myself how she externalizes her shame and guilt and blames me every time.

I remind myself that life is too short, and stress kills, that I lost weight due to stress and depression to the point when I reunited with friends the past few months they have all been worried about my well-being.

I remind myself of the unforgivable things she would yell at me about and how she would refer to me in front of our kids and our neighbors and strangers.

I remind myself of all the drama and roller coaster aspects and how it wore me down.

I remind myself of her unfaithfulness while we were working to reconcile last time.

I remind myself that it was all worth it because I know my children and without going through this hell I would have never had them.

I remind myself of the authentic self of hers that shown through every now and then, and that I was trying to help that person reassume conscious  control of my STBXW.

I remind myself that even through all of this, she isn’t making moves to fix things, and that she will likely never will. This is where her lack of long-term view really bothers me. One day our kids will ask and wonder why mom isn't around or why mom and I aren't together...She is claiming to her friends and family all sorts of lies and not taking responsibility for her actions, but will she really think she can do the same to our kids? I have kept every single legal item related to the last divorce and this divorce so they can have the true story when they are an appropriate age. I will never bad mouth their mother, but I am keeping the receipts. She can lie to her friends and family all she wants, but our kids deserve to know the truth that I took them out of an abusive and violent situation. So they will know one day -- why do all the mental gymnastics today instead of taking ownership and working towards self improvement and eventual reconciliation? I think the obvious answer is short-sightedness and lack of love for others. She is definitely in "victim" mode, reaching out to old high school and college friends for validation, etc...we all know how that search for external validation goes.

**I woke up really emotionally distraught this morning. I've been able to actually have dreams since we’ve separated. I think it was too hard to sleep peacefully next to someone I didn’t feel safe around, I don’t know. But lately the dreams have been really surreal and mostly about our reconciliation last time around. There is one specifically that keeps popping up which was the first time she opened the door to her apartment when we saw each other in person the first time. My logical self is in one place, but my emotional self is somewhere completely different.**

*Update* I’m no longer a lost puppy dog.  My purpose in life right now is being a great dad to my two kids, a great friend to everyone who is back in my life and a kickass coworker helping two founders build a massive SaaS company in the energy space (bless my new job I’m so thankful). I’ve given too much of myself to one person who never appreciated or accepted it. I’m not upset by it but I learned a lot. All I can do is move forward. I’ve been working out, listening to/playing music and feel more and more like “myself” every day. I love myself and believe in myself again. I will never let myself be treated that way again. My life has become a drama free zone and I invited that kind of disrespect when I worked with her every time a red flag showed up. I have been buzzing with energy for about a week straight and it’s mind boggling. I feel like a completely different person and literally don’t give a sh*t about anything unless it truly means something or is important. Thank you to everyone here!

 :wee:

Wow! Just read your whole thread ... I'm new here and learning a lot, as I try to reconcile my mother's behavior toward me most of my life.

I am in a happy successful marriage of almost 18yrs now, but in the past I had a really bad one with my child's father that included some violence. After that I learned about love addiction and was advised to read the book Women Who Love Too Much twice! That is a horrible problem to have, the obsession and the illness of it. Worked hard at healing that in a 12-step program, my picker was broken and I am so happy to say I broke my patterns and picked a decent human being to spend my life with, without drama.

It's almost like you went through a withdrawal of the love/hope/marriage and then popped out to say WAIT, it's My Kids and My Self that I'm in love with! That I'm devoted to. All your work will pay off because your children will benefit greatly from your recovery. AND you are protecting them from the insanity of a violent mother.

I see that the relationship with my mum was rigged ... and once again she disposed of me. The loving connection, the sacred relationship, the closeness at ages 60 and 80, mean nothing to her when her disease is activated in such a way that she deletes me. But this time I don't have a fantasy of reconciliation. I am grieving and healing and sometimes it's so painful and awful. But I read others' posts and feel better, it helps me understand.

I believe the good things you wrote and experienced with the mother of your children and I believe the bad. The bad are way too dangerous for the children and your soul. It's a bit like God is doing for me what I couldn't do for myself---the restraining order and no contact thing.

As an update…

She reached out on a burner number after 6 months against a court order.
She gave enough for us to identify it was her.
I won’t use it for her to end up in jail.
I was making progress and I feel like I was back at square one the first day she reached out.
Day 2 of communication I lost my PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm) with her and while it was cathartic, it was over the top and mean.
Day 3 I tried to lead by example and apologize for my part in some of our issues, which she didn’t react well to at all.
Over the past 3 days I’ve apologized for things I did, but she hasn’t accepted any accountability or responsibility.
Kind of just the same old PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm).
Like…if a doctor told you that you had a tumor in your head, and they got it out, and you could keep living a pain free life, would you want to put it back in there?

All I want to know is … why did she reach out? It makes no sense. I’ve done most of the talking and she just…for some reason decided to risk going to jail for… some? No reason?

So I’m back here.