BPDFamily.com

 I stumbled on these jewels on Enotalone  forms. They were written by a guy who was discarded 10 years ago and happened to have the exact same story I have. He is not a therapist but he put it in a way that was more helpful than anything else I read. His name on those forms was Secondchance67 but I couldn’t get a hold of him. If anyone knows if these are taken from any book or something please point me to it. Here are the 3 posts:

#1

You are being "recycled".

 

She is coming back to you for a multitude of reasons; ego stroke and boost, validation that she could have you again, familiarity, comfort, knowing she had your heart once, and most likely could have it again...none of which are healthy, viable reasons, but neither is the mindset of a person suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder.

 

The person suffering form BPD will do this, over and over, until there is not a single shred of a chance it will work between you, she will destroy everything the two of you once had, and blame you for it not working out when she finally gives up...that, or the next "flavor of the month" that catches their eye comes along, and off they go, chasing that drug-like Honeymoon Phase and validation and rush of chemicals that a new "love" brings to them.

 

You have to do your research and understand the underlying reasons for recycling, gaslighting, being painted black and "out of sight, out of mind" thinking that the BPD'er uses to torture you emotionally as well as mentally.

 

Look at link removed and link removed both are valuable resources into the suffers of BPD and the chains it can wrap around those involved with them.

 

Distance, knowledge and NC are you only allies now.

 

To break free from a relationship with a BPD is one of the hardest things to accomplish - the toll on you both mentally and emotionally will be great...but the peace in your life once it is over will be greater.

#2


Some recycle - some don't.

 

Some stalk - some don't...the stalking is more about the validation as I pointed out earlier...needing to know they still have you interested, even the smallest bit, by entertaining or acknowledging their advances.

When they are down or missing the high that "the chase" provides them, they go thru the "mental rolodex" of old bf/gf they have had, and are drawn back to the familiarity and comfort you once provided.

 

Please remember this next part when dealing with someone suffering from BPD:

 

It is NEVER about you - not EVER.

No matter how they twist it, manipulate the truth, the past, or what they promise you for the future...it is, and always will be, about THEM.

You are a pawn in a sick game...a game of validation...lies...deceit...self loathing and the need to be wanted, and at the same time scared to death of the closeness and "normalcy" a loving R/S provides.

They sabotage everything good in their lives...they play out the same saddistic play with each new "host"...I use the word "host" instead of partner because that's all you are...a host for the parasite to use up and discard...one way, shape or form, they repeat their patterns and ruin the R/S.

 

Anything she does has a motive...a deep seated and long ignored issue form her childhood that went unresolved...and the net result is what you have in front of you now - an emotionally stunted and empty person - void of any real empathy or depth of emotion.

 

Do yourself a favor here - Learn from my mistakes...STAY AWAY FROM HER, NOW AND FOREVER...nothing good will come of your interaction, your constant searching for answers...nothing.

 

Go NC...heal...realize this was NEVER your fault or your doing...you were just another unfortunate victem in a long line of them before you and sadly after you...another discarded empty shell she sucked the life out of and moved on from.

#3



The way they can "flip a switch' and leave is unlike anything you will encounter...they never fully commit, or feel the feelings of a deep bond - they can't - they aren't wired to do so.

 

So when the time comes to jump to your replacement, and sadly yes, the one they have had on the backburner for quite awhile, they do it with a clear conscience and without remorse - at that point they have convinced themselves of your inability to be what they need (painted you black), and have already started idealizing and mirroring your replacement, and disengaged from you.

 

Their world is very much in the "here and now" emotionally - they don't form deep bonds, but rather exsist on the surface...remember that you are dealing with someone with the emotional maturity of a child - the next new shiny toy catches their eye, they drop the toy they clung to for months...its a form of "emotional amnesia"...they forget you quickly when someone else is perceived to be a better fit or more likely, a better option, for them.

 

The other thing to remember is that you are on to her now, understand her BPD issues, and that is disconcerting to her...she needs to prove you wrong, and that is a strong force in her need for a re-connection...remember, if you perceive her as "good" (painted white) then in her emotionally underdevelopend sense of self, she must be "good" ( painted white)...if you reject or ignore her, in essence you are percieving her as "bad" ( painted black) and she cannot handle that...because in her mind you care about her, so she can't have you think that way.

 

Its a difficult path, filled with twists and brambles and high weeds to navigate, when trying to understand the mindset of a BPD sufferer...your best offense is a good defense...stay NC...at some point, that new shiny toy with catch her eye, and you'll be free, and she'll be someone else's nightmare to contend with.

This is extremely helpful, especially as I am now in the phase of preparing for imminent recycle attempts. Thank you truly!

The parasite analogy is interesting. Do you think it is helpful?

Yes, very. Especially because it reminds me that it's not her/the parasite's fault. They do what they do because that's how they "need" to act to survive, and they will always seek a "host," best not be me.

What do you think, Turkish?

I was so pissed off and angry about my ex, yet my T said, "she's an independent entity, free to make her own choices." He was no fan of her, especially since she lied to him before  abandoning therapy. That made me think that I was also free to make my own choices. I'm not an unwitting host for a tapeworm or a lamprey. That thinking removes my choices, even being raised by a single mother with BPD. You don't know what you don't know. It took this to make me realize that, and take back my own power.

It was such that when my ex asked to come back after leaving me and hurting and humiliating me after her marriage to the boy toy she left me for broke down, I said No.

"No" is a complete sentence.

I will admit that I spent all of a few minutes thinking about how that would work, but No. She made her choices, hurting me and the kids. I was no longer a victim, as I thought, but my own person.

Almost 9 years out, she still single, and our D9 still asking us to get back together, it's still no. I do sometimes miss her.  Yet she isn't a parasite, but a severely hurt being emotionally. I had choices I made, and I am still free to make those even if I felt i didn't at the time.

Sometimes the winning move is not to play.

 Host, caretaker …etc I think it’s just semantics. Partner just doesn’t fit how a BPD  treats their subject of obsession after the honeymoon phase.

@NotAHero - thank you for your insight. I had 3 major takeaways -

1) I feel like the fear of abandonment is well documented & discussed on this and other forums, but I haven't seen much around why feelings of "engulfment" cause the pwBPD to push the r/s away? Is it because they recognize that they aren't able to be the type of partner that a healthy relationship requires - empathetic, unconditionally loving, forgiving, etc.?

2) Your words "they never fully commit" are so simple, but in my experience so true. In 4 years, I don't know if I ever felt like I was confident in my pwBPD's commitment to me. And now that she has discarded me, I'm beginning to experience the cold reality of the "flipped switch" and highly doubt that she has thought about me even a fraction of the amount of time that I've thought about her over the last month.

3) "at that point they have convinced themselves of your inability" - this is so spot on. I don't suspect that my ex-pwBPD had another guy on the backburner, although she very well could have...she was seemingly loyal throughout our r/s and for a while she would even go out of her way to talk to me about any awkward or uncomfortable situations that occurred (somebody hitting on her, messaging her on Instagram, etc.), but towards the end she began weaponizing one of my deepest insecurities - a fear of getting cheated on, and I wonder if that was an admission of something.

But my point in calling out that phrase is that so many, many times, I was labeled as "incapable" of this, that or the other. Incapable of solving conflict, unable to be empathetic, etc. And again, the great irony is that she was literally describing herself. It was 100% complete & total projection.

She is unable & incapable of so many basic relationship characteristics and likely so overwhelmed with feelings of shame & self-loathing as a result, but she literally doesn't know how to process those feelings because of her BPD. So therefore, they have to become my burden / once she projects her insecurity on me, it's no longer her problem.

 The engulfment is so scary to them because they can no longer manipulate you into seeing them like you did in the honeymoon phase. They also no longer see you in the idolized image that they created and duped themselves with. Hence the devaluation, projection and eventually discard.

that makes sense, thank you for the explanation.

YES! That was something I experienced as well. Isn't it mad how they somehow do observe these things but are ABSOLUTELY incapable of self-reflection and can only project?
That's something I absolutely cannot understand.
A friend of mine said, "It's scary how they behave but also a bit fascinating." Well, yes, in a way it is fascinating.

And thank you very much @NotAHero for the initial post, very very helpful!

All of that is helpful and this is a great thread.

Turkish, that makes sense. It does help to realize that No can be a complete sentence. I have a feeling I will need it too as my wife’s fantasy relationship that she abandoned me and our marriage for seems to be teetering.

I think the engulfment fear is also an abandonment fear in a way, the more secure your love, the more they think you’re hiding something big and some big abandonment is coming, as they always think love ends in abandonment, pain, and loss, at least that’s how it seems to me.

I think it also has to do with the unstable sense of self. It helps me to think of her like a child and me as a substitute parent. If she feels engulfed, smothered, like she’s losing her “self” she will rebel and/or run, then she will feel scared and abandoned, and back and forth forever.

Like many on here, my wife discarded me/split me black right at the moment things were stable/good financially, relationship wise, etc. We were just about to buy a house and have kids, we were on track to pay off our debt, had just been on a vacation together where we spent a lot of time together.

She made a lot of statements when she left of “you must be hiding something,” “I was losing myself,” “I don’t know who I am right now,” “I was becoming you,” a lot of comments about me being “controlling” for things like wanting to regularly have healthy emotionally intimate discussions and quality time together  (aka fear of engulfment).

For those pwBPD who suffered trauma and/or abusive or neglectful parenting, I think this is what seems normal, comfortable to them, this unstable and traumatic environment.

Both pwBPD’s that I’ve been involved with have said that “when things go good for too long, it’s a sign something really bad is coming,” and then there’s often some self harm/self sabotage behavior, including cheating, leaving, etc (self harm of the relationship). It gives them some sense of control and eases the anxiety of impending doom. Then the cycle repeats.

Also just found this very helpful thread regarding engulfment:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=201518.0

the weight of the reality of what you're describing here hits me so hard @WhatToDo47

I've long known that unstable personal relationships are a hallmark of a pwBPD, and my now ex-pwBPD certainly has a history that includes several broken friendships/previous romantic partners. But I've never thought about taking that idea a step further to describe that type of environment as normal/comfortable to the pwBPD, and seeing that as a partial explanation to the unanswerable question of "why"

Knowing so many intimate details of my ex-pwBPD's upbringing in a toxic household with a neglectful & emotionally abusive support system (parents + 3 siblings) it's easy to imagine how the roller-coaster chaos of our relationship could just be "business as usual" for her. And it helps to explain why what has been absolutely heartbreaking for me - coming to grips with the end of our relationship - seems to have had a much more minimal impact on her.

And I think you're right that what you & I would see as self-sabotage (my ex-partner abandoning her relationship with a man who has repeatedly expressed that he wants to love/accept/support her in managing her BPD and with whom she has wonderful chemistry), is really an attempt by her to feel some semblance of control.

In my experience, it seems like pwBPD are so out of control emotionally (and unable to regulate/cope when they're triggered) that they inevitably seek to manipulate their intimate relationships in ways that makes them feel in control. My ex was notorious for hanging up on me, walking out on me in the middle of a fight/stonewalling, demanding that I do XYZ or she would leave me, etc. and I've come to realize all of that for what it was - a terrified little girl who doesn't know how to process the extreme emotions coursing through her veins. And she truly believes that if only I had done XYZ, things would be different. If only I were different, our relationship could work. It's depressing as anything I've ever experienced in my life.

You said all of that very well. I could have written that post, as everything you described also applies to my ex and our relationship.

For her, this breakup is just one of a million chaotic things she’s had in her life. For most of us, it’s one of a kind and hopefully something we only go through once. It does give me a little sympathy for her that her whole life has been like this, the tragedy is that it’s self imposed.

In a recent conversation with her, she said that she left because she was feeling hurt and alone, but now she feels more hurt and alone than ever before. She’s now quelled her engulfment fear and is back to her abandonment fear.

I could write novels on everything that I’ve gone through with her, but if you have specific questions please let me know. I’m happy to help and have felt and am still feeling that awful pain that you are. Just know that you’re not alone. I HIGHLY recommend therapy for yourself with a therapist trained in PTSD from BPD relationships. It has been a game changer for me.

Also, read as much as you can here, including from all of the boards. You will see the patterns and it won’t feel so personal. In addition, ask yourself how you would feel if a random stranger acted in the ways she did or how she would feel if she treated you like you treated her. It helped me.

Finally, I think this really is no big deal to them. The cycle will always always continue. Most of them don’t think they have a problem and think they are acting totally normally, spare a few rare moments of clarity for them. Ask yourself if you want to live your life like this and feel what you’re feeling now over and over and over again. I answered no to that.

As a follow up to the no big deal, she has at various points told me or my family since she abandoned me:

Don’t take it personal, these things happen, maybe I’ll change my mind in a few years.

What’s the problem? You can call or text me anytime.

This isn’t about you, don’t be so selfish. Use this time to buy new shirts (seriously).

And much more like that. I think some of it comes from being invalidated and neglected as a kid, so only extreme actions like this would get attention from her parents.

There is also some evidence that genetics and brain structure play a role in the disordered thinking, with problems in the brain regions that control emotions and executive function, too much emotions, lack of executive function explain a lot of BPD behaviors and thought processes, in my opinion.

Hang in there, you are definitely not alone!

I've experienced that with my ex-g/f and her family and believe it to be true. Mental illness is very prevalent on her father's side of the family. There are 7 in her immediate family, including her mother and father and 5 children counting my ex. Both my ex, her father, and her youngest sibling have had substance abuse problems. The three of them also have ADHD in addition to mental health issues and are each very impulsive. They need someone in their lives to keep them in check. When I was with my ex, that person was me. I was her caretaker.  She said I made her feel safe and also made her feel "less crazy."  Her other 3 siblings function much better, but each of them have issues with depression and anxiety. However, they seem to make it through life much better than my ex, her father, and her youngest sibling.

My ex's dad has mental health issues and abused drugs and alcohol from the time he was an adolescent until he was in his late 20's. Currently, he's heavily medicated with prescription drugs for ADHD and severe depression. My ex's mother told me once that she has to manage her husband's medication daily for him, or "he will take the whole bottle at once." There is also mental illness with both of his nephews, and one was diagnosed with BPD 3-4 years ago.

As far as my ex's younger sibling goes, he rarely can hold down a job for any length of time and abused elicit drugs up until about two years ago much like his father when he was his son's age. He's enrolled in college classes along with technical schools and has quit all of them very early into the programs.  The last knowledge I had of his situation, his family doctor told him that he could get him the help he needs for his mental health issues and ADHD if he would commit to sobriety and counseling. I don't think much has changed with him since he rarely leaves the house and brags about being up late playing video games and sleeping most of the following day. He married a very ambitious/intelligent girl a while back, and I don't understand how or why she puts up with that to be honest.

My ex is also ADHD and is most likely Borderline (suspected by my counselor after me describing her behavior and also after reading several pages of correspondence between my ex and I) . She has a history of child abuse along with 2 of her 4 siblings. She has sought counseling at least 3 times in her life but never follows through or commits to changing her life for the better. When we broke up, she asked me why I wouldn't fully commit to her and marry her. My answer was that she refused to get the help that she needed to become a whole person for herself and her children. Her reply was, "I don't need help. Counselors don't work for me. This is just the way that I am." Just a few weeks before this, she told me how bad things were her for her emotionally, and she asked me to recommend another counselor for her.  Shortly after graduating high school, she began abusing alcohol, had multiple short lived relationships, and was involved in what I would call promiscuous behavior with several men. During that period of time, she got pregnant with her oldest child. This child is a teenager now and has so many deep seated issues like her mother. It's truly heartbreaking. There's no doubt that the source of those issues came from my ex. Additionally, my ex has been enrolled in five different colleges over a period of several years, and has quit every single one of them without obtaining a degree. As you can imagine, this has resulted in massive student loan debt with not much of an income for her to be able to pay the loans back.

 I have been reading this again and again for over a year and still got recycled or reeled back in like 20 times.

 They are really good at what they do and I’m still trying to figure out what’s wrong with me that I allowed that to happen.

I feel your pain. I now realize I was recycled multiple times in our dating/marriage without even realizing it. They are soo good at reeling us back in. I hope you are figuring out how to escape the tractor beam, therapy and these boards are helping me. But I hope next time she launches a recycle attempt I will have healed enough to resist.

My wife's family has a similar abundance of mental illness and dysfunction, not exactly the same, but abundant nonetheless. Her mom is most certainly NPD and BPD, and the mental illness ripples out from there.

I was also my wife's "caretaker," who kept her in check, and her family appreciated, respected, and "loved" me for that. I also was told how I'm the only one who makes her feel safe, loved, etc. She always claimed she wants to be nothing like her family, we even moved halfway across the country to get away from them, but in the end, she abandoned me and went right back to them and is now the worst of the bunch in many ways. Very tragic. It confused me a lot until I found out about this site and BPD.

My wife also suffered abuse and has entered and quit counseling multiple times, always when she thought the counselor was going to "turn on her" or "abandon her."

I am also getting the "that's just the way I am" treatment now. (She lied, abandoned, cheated, made false DV accusations, etc, but I'm supposed to pretend like it never happened because that's just the way she is). I'm told her mom was just like this at her age, and now her mom is isolated and on disability. No one wants to be around her because of her temper and unpredictability. Her mom is still married to her dad, but her dad is more of a prisoner than a husband, to be honest, and up until recently worked 10 hour days, 7 days a week. Now I understand why.

Her sister's kids are only 9 and 7 but already have major behavioral issues that look a lot like BPD. I have known them their whole lives and it's sad to see them slowly unravel and have the behavior normalized by her family. They call her BPD rages her "hysteria" and mock her for it, then tell her to "snap out of it," yell back, hit, throw things, slam doors, etc. You can see why we moved halfway across the country from them.

Very sad about your ex's child.

I can also relate to starting and quitting everything. My wife tried so many careers, schools, jobs, etc. Always just resulted in more debt, and her quitting after she claimed someone tried to rape her, cheat her, abuse her, etc. It was NEVER her fault (in her reality).

Sounds like your ex is in an awful financial situation.

I have also noticed that alcohol is a common theme, as it's impulsive and numbing.

There has to be at least some genetic basis to this, the behaviors are just so similar.

Hang in there, and I will, too. Here for you.

 It’s something new everytime. She is willing to use anything and everything to reel me back in under different labels. “Friends” “ coparents” “fwb” “on and off r/s” ….I finally realized that the only way to be free is no contact ( except child related) and that’s the only way. Yet I still don’t know if I am smart enough to not get manipulated one way or another.

So true, they are master manipulators. I think the titles don't mean anything to them anyways, and that gives them a lot of leverage. Every relationship to them = what can we do for them at the moment. They don't have boundaries or true empathy, so they'll say or do whatever they need to ease their emotional desire or pain in the moment. A sad, shallow, hollow way to live, but it looks different to us because we have empathy and know how to truly love.

Wishing you luck and strength!

I used to think that once we were married that meant something and she wouldn't just up and leave like when we were dating. Boy, was I wrong. I can see now that it meant nothing to her, really. I thought that when we had kids then she FOR SURE couldn't leave, but now I'm realizing how much of a blessing it is that we didn't. I don't know how you do it having a poor innocent child in the mix.

 This is so very true.  Keep reminding yourself that we mean nothing to them. So any validation or positive emotion is just a form of manipulation to torture you more mentally and emotionally. 

 What made me addicted is that we had 3 years of honeymoon phase. Pretty long from what I see. I think that the reason it was so long was because I held my boundaries well during that time. Started giving in the last 2 years.  Even that I moved the separation steps along when I realized there is no hope it is still hard.

I have came back and  read this a few times over the last few days. It really has helped me feel a little better each time I read it. Thank you for sharing this!

Carguy, same here.

Notahero, I can relate. I also had a long honeymoon period. Although, in hindsight, it wasn't so golden. I also held my boundaries well at first but then started getting exhausted at the end. I think she was just pushing and pushing trying to give her an excuse to blame me for the constant pain and agony that comes with being a pwBPD. I do not envy them. I'm going to come back and read this thread when I feel weak.

For me, she knew that I value my faith, family, and fidelity. I now see that she acted in whatever destructive, impulsive, and crazy ways she wanted pretty much the whole time, but being careful not to touch these 3 areas of my life. Then, in the end, she rapidly blitzed them all. A lot of cognitive dissonance resulted from this.

WhatToDo47

Very much feels like my relationship. We were always in the honeymoon phase till the last week. But really, It was a constant devalue only to reconcile the love bomb and honeymoon phase. It’s like she needed to take out all the agony from BPD, repress my feelings and allow her to rage, then wait a day and all is well. Like restarting the honeymoon phase.  I don’t know lol but it was constant after I called out her lies and actions.

My biggest mistake, was standing up for myself.
I noticed when I did, and broke things off with her. Showed boundaries.. Wow could she turn it on. I mean the darkest of despair break downs and self hatred, mixed with love bombing and heart pulling vows of love.

As soon as I took her back, she saw I was weak and could completely control me. The rest was history. 10 months of hell questioning her every word, while enjoying the honeymoon recycles.

I have similar values and man, she just annihilated them towards the end. I found out about her cheating 8 months after the incident and never once did she admit it, even with proof from her own messages.

She blamed me for digging. Blamed me for rushing into a relationship with her. Blamed me for “manipulating” her into dating me. Blamed me for being insecure. My T said she could deny, knowing my codependency would fool myself into believing it. Denial in the form of trauma bonding.


I’m still lost in the FOG and cognitive dissonance. It’s something ive never experienced to this extreme.

I’m glad she found a replacement. She was recycling me, splitting, ghosting, charming, drunk dialing, drunk raging, drunk hooking up. And it was only going to string me along till the inevitable replacement.

Now I’m focused on moving on and letting go.

God bless you all! The fact you’re here is a major step. I hope you all find happiness and healthy partners.

I can so much relate. Now that I look back on it, there were somewhat regular complete self sabotage meltdowns/”break up”s in her mind, that I just didn’t understand or know how to recognize at the time. They usually lasted a day or two, then she was so thankful I didn’t leave her for having them, and then honeymoon again, but shorter and shallower. These traumatic experience gave me a sense that we were growing closer, as we had been through so much together and her words were consistent with that. Clearly, something else was going on internally and she was slowly devaluing me.

Some examples of these meltdowns are her showing up at my work saying we have to break up, her stopping the car and telling me she would walk the rest of the way home because we’re done, suicide attempts and threats, etc. She is very prone to self harm, and I see her abandoning and divorcing me as a form of self harm. She even admitted to her therapist on a 3 way call with me after she left that it was (we only had 1 of those conversations and then she split him black, too).

When she left, she kept saying “Are you afraid of me?” I answered no, because I thought she wanted a strong, confident man, and she said she did, too. But now I think that she wanted me to say yes. In her mind, the only reason I would ever stay with her is if I was afraid of her. Her mom is also very disordered and imposes her will and control through fear, and I thnk my ex’s self esteem was so low, and that was her example growing up. When she saw that I wasn’t afraid, she felt like she lost control, and I couldn’t possibly love her (which I did) and that I was going to abandon her (which I wasn’t), and I’m sure her mom (who she left me to stay with at the time) was telling her the same.
It’s so sad to see the violently fluctuating extremes of lashing out and love bombing when they know they’re losing control. I see this a lot right now as it’s starting to sink in for her what divorce actually means. It’s soo hard as a codependent and rescuer type not to rush in and save her again, but I know it would destroy me.
Your cautionary tale about what happens when you take them back helps a lot. Any stories, advice, anything about this really helps me and hopefully others, if you care to share.

They sure can annihilate us when we have values. They will push every boundary until it breaks. My ex is also trying to make this my fault, denial in the form of trauma bonding as you say. She’s reaching out often now, asking if I understand now why she had to leave and cheat, expecting me to take responsibility for it and then maybe, just maybe she will give me the “privilege” of trying to chase her and win her love back. She actually told that if I really love her I will pay for her car, food, everything, for “about 5 years” while she learns “who she is” and then MAYBE, MAYBE she will think about giving us another chance. They see us as objects, only there to fill their needs. Their emotional pain and turmoil and lack of self is too strong, they can’t see past it and care about othets.
She slipped about the cheating during a rage after she left, letting it slip that she had in fact moved in with another man just days after I flew halfway across the country to try and reconcile and persuade her to come back. I have confirmed this through messages that she left on our mutual laptop for me to find (she told me to go on there and send her pictures of her dad when he was young that apparently only exist there). I don’t know if she intended me to find the messages or if it was just carelessness on her part, but I found them. I haven’t confronted her about it because I know she’ll say it wasn’t cheating, as she had abandoned me already. But when you’re still married, telling them you’re not divorcing just needing a few days to calm down, and that you’re going to return and reconcile, that the marriage will be okay and survive, yet setting up dinner dates and moving in with a new man, that sure reeks of cheating to me.
I am also still seeing things FOGgy, but I’m getting there. My ex pretended to be the most religious, faithful, stand by your man woman I’d ever met. I thought her culture and religious front, and history of sexual trauma meant that she would never cheat. Boy was I wrong.
It sounds like you are doing a great job detaching and not letting yourself get strung along forever and just used and abused and emotionally raped over and over. That’s what I’m struggling to do as well.
God bless you all and I wish the same for you, happy, healthy partners that know how to receive and give true love and care!

 While my breakup had a lot of recycling and I was successfully reeled back multiple times after I was “done”, I can tell you I always went back with lesser capacity. As in I went back “less”. Not sure if that was the right approach but it worked for me. I got less attached each time. 

the fear of engulfment is not the fear of being unable to manipulate someone. it is the fear of being manipulated or controlled. it is a fear we all have, to lesser or greater degrees. in my case, for example, i feel engulfed when i feel someone is: competing with or invading my privacy, when i feel someone is telling me what to do or bossing me around at the expense of my autonomy, or when i feel like someone is pushing me to commit to something im not ready to commit to. no one likes to be on the receiving end of those things. i have a bit of a heightened sense for it and have to adjust for that.

we all put our best foot forward when we begin a new relationship. we all minimize the less desirable parts of us, and play up what we think is most likely to attract the other person. we all idealize new partners to an extent.

a deeply insecure person will do this to an even greater degree, at the expense of themselves, because they are desperate to attract you and obtain your love.

the problem is that thats not, ultimately, sustainable. and eventually they will come to resent you for it.

why? because a person in that position senses, and feels, that you dont really love them for who they are, but for who you want them to be. simultaneously, they begin to feel that they are a fraud, are suspicious of your love for that reason, and resent feeling obligated to keep it up.

whats insidious about these relationships, is that typically, both parties are unknowingly reinforcing that fear.

This is a helpful description of the problem.  I wondered about the engulfment factor being part of BPD. 

People mentioned to me, when they first explained that my XW was exhibiting BPD characteristics, that BPDers had dual fears of engulfment and abandonment, which lead to a constant "push-pull" pattern of conflict in their relationships... where they were either fearing abandonment and demanding love and affection, or fearing enmeshment, and pushing their partner away. 

But abandonment or childhood neglect or trauma stemming from the parent not being there for a child often plays a role in the development of the disorder, according to things I've read.

SO I never understood why they'd fear engulfment if abandonment is the primary fear; if you're more engulfed in your partner (for better or for worse), abandonment seems less likely.

However, if it's normal like you say to resent or dislike feeling controlled, or losing your autonomy as a person; I imagine then that BPDers, being emotionally disordered, experience this to a greater extent than a non-disordered person, and over issues or events that a non-disordered person might not associate with a loss of autonomy.  I can understand that. 

 I really like your explanation of that part of the engulfment fear. I do still believe manipulation is part of it though. Mirroring and idealizing may not be fully conscious act to them but that does not disqualify it from being a manipulation technique. When “the gig is up” or like you said when they feel like a fraud then that part of engulfment becomes scary and the resentment builds. They are afraid that they can no longer manipulate you and you are onto them they are afraid that you will now manipulate them and they will lose themselves. It’s a complex mechanic and I don’t think that there is a way to continue after that point short of them seeking serious help on their own. If they have narcissistic tendencies that won’t happen.

I think all of that is true. I also think that, in cases of abuse and/or neglect, engulfment fear comes in part because the primary abuser was so abusive when present. So if they are feeling loved/intimate/accepted, they are just waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak. They are wearing a mask and expect that everyone else is as well. They trusted and loved someone once, when they were very young, and it resulted in horrific abuse, so they are expecting the same thing to happen again and panic.

I know being around my wife's mom, who is also BPD/NPD, when she was nice it was almost scarier than when she was mean. When she was mean, at least it would be over soon or she would get to tired to stay as actively, aggressively mean and narcissistic. When she was nice, it was always to get something or as a prelude to abuse. She would be nice for a while partially so she didn't have to feel as bad about herself when she was inevitably mean later on. (eg mama cooked you lunch earlier so she's a good mom, even if she hits you and yells at you later). No sense of proportionality or justice.

I think that BPD is very complex and there are so many factors and disordered thinking patterns that can result in the same observed outcome (splitting, abandoning, cheating, etc). So they have many disordered ways of thinking and fearing to arrive at the same outcomes, which manifest as the traits of BPD.

Not sure if any of that made sense.

Thanks  to a half - a**ed recycling attempt I had to read this again. I have been doing that for a year - even before the break up- yet my heart still has not fully caught to it.

 Why do I still have feelings as faint as they are, that allow her to affect me still?

"To break free from a relationship with a BPD is one of the hardest things to accomplish - the toll on you both mentally and emotionally will be great...but the peace in your life once it is over will be greater."

Notahero, I know how you feel. I feel the same. We neurotypical people - maybe with some codependent tendencies and attachment issues - bond incredibly tightly when we find someone we are led to believe is going to be our ideal partner. The idealization, love-bombing, promises of a future dream, and all of the intermittent reinforcement gets us hooked. And hooked deeply.

I'm no expert, but from my experience and what I have read, our pwBPD and the highs produced from the good times in our relationship with them acts like a drug. If you were a cocaine addict and went to a party where cocaine was present, you'd crave it. Even if you thought you'd kicked the habit.

I also find myself struggling with the false belief that the next round with her would be better. I could make it work if only, I did things differently. Sadly, I tried so many different things, and nothing worked consistently for an extended period. And while she claimed to have "tried so hard", I believe her efforts were largely internally focused (i.e., not letting her fear rise up up and cause her to run away or otherwise engage in behavior that destabilized the relationship) rather than on actually putting motional energy into the relationship.

The other factor that might be in play here is: hope. I am a bit of a romantic and an idealist. I don't want to give up hope on her becoming healthier and being able to be a consistently loving and emotionally stable partner. I don't want to give up hope in the relationship and the possibility of a future together. But, those hopes plague me and keep me vulnerable to feelings of longing for her, etc. I hope with time, distance, and work, I can let go of that hope and build other hopes based on healthier and more realistic dreams.

The addiction, wishful thinking / second chance, and hope even against the odds might also be factors that keep you locked into the cycle even as you work to free yourself.

Why do you think you have feelings that still allow her to affect you? In expressing them, it might help you to understand and make peace with them, in hopes that you can let go of them in time.

I believe this is totally normal. You were living together with this person for 5 years, and you had a child together. There were bad times but good ones as well, so it is not really easy to just forget about them all together. She still has some place in your heart, and that is not going to go away in a few months or even in a year. But it will eventually pass and after it does, you might still think about her from time to time but she won't have any power over you.

Hang in there, you are doing really well my friend

  You are right on. I completely agree with everything you said.

 I am a hopeless romantic myself. It was very hard for me to dissect that the “ideal” partner was just mirroring and idealizing. She did it so well and for over 3 years. Event year 4 wasn’t that bad…though the abuse had started in it. Year 5 was a nightmare from the depths of hell that went progressively worse.

For me I do know the relationship will never work. I took steps to end it - if you go to my first posts on the forms I started in “bettering the relationship “ back in September.  Why do I have feelings for her? Because she is that brilliant beautiful talented woman who has a childish good heart just like mine…but within her also lives that evil child - so to speak - the Damian, the torturer, the abuser ….

 I know it will never ever work as a relationship but I find myself weak to her hugs and touches still. Though I know they are not being done for a good reason. They are not healthy. The intimacy is always on the table one way or another and I’m having a hard time letting go of that as well. Having a hard time forming any intimacy with other women that I talk to or try to connect with. I have had no issues with that before. Since I have to keep seeing her and communicate with her, I realized I must just let it heal with time. My therapist told me I don’t have to delete our picture and memories but I shouldn’t wallow on them. One day I won’t look at them and be sad. I already became better I would say. At least I don’t cry anymore. I have good days when I’m happy. Going out, traveling to see friends for the first time soon, becoming happier slowly….

 There is always that fear that I’ll still have feelings in years not months. That is not something I want and that is why I’m posting, getting therapy and talking to friends. Plus of course sharing with you who are going through similar circumstances here. I wish us all luck…

I really do understand how you feel, though your journey is more challenging, in that your life was more intertwined than mine and that you must continue to interact with her. You have a lot of inner strength to be able to move forward, find moments of happiness, and not cry. I look forward to reaching that point myself.

Part of the letting go of hope for me is trying to accept that her love for me, at least the idealization of me, was in part an illusion that she and I both created, fueled, and bought into. It wasn't reaIity. I actually do believe that pwBPD are capable of love. It's just not a stable, safe, consistent, and healthy love at least in the context of a long-term romantic relationship. Certainly not without therapy, acceptance of their disorder, and practicing the skills taught during therapy even when triggered.

I think it's ok and realistic to fear that you "will have feelings" for her even years after. She was your partner and is the mother of your child. It is natural that you will have those feelings, not something to fear. At the same time, you already are able to acknowledge that it would be unhealthy for you to act on those feelings and remain in a relationship that was causing you great pain.

Unlike our former partners, we are capable of accepting the gray areas of human interactions. You can love her yet not be with her. They are not mutually exclusive. And I would say as a romantic and idealist, that it's a pretty noble quality to be able to still love someone notwithstanding the dysfunction you experienced in your relationship with her. Reconciling these dialectics is part of healing and letting go.

I also believe that once you are further healed, you will be able to receive love and share intimacy with another woman. Your reaction is likely your mind telling you that you are still wounded and not ready for a healthy romantic relationship. When you're ready, I believe it will just feel natural.

I hope my words validate your experience. Sometimes when I reply to posts I feel like I'm trying to give myself wisdom I wish I could accept directly from myself. Why is that so hard for me to do? My logical mind and emotional mind still are locked in a struggle. I hope I and all of us can integrate the two sides of our minds with time, distance, and healing to reach a "wise mind" approach to the paradoxes of loving and recovering from loving a pwBPD.

Until that day comes, hang in there and let's keep supporting one another.

I think even if you intentionally try to do this, you can't achieve it. Look at the new posts from older members on this site, most of them were  able eventually to detach and move on with their lives. This is basically how our brain works. We forget!

You can't hold on to anything ... everything eventually pass. The most important thing is not to feed the drama anymore.

 You are right and I am trying to do the exact opposite. To heal and be able to be at peace with her new place in my life as the mother of my child only. Would greatly help if she would stop attempting to recycle or breadcrumb then pull back as she has always done to this day- never a full discard yet.  I know that to end that it has to come from me- where I can continue to hold my indifference or the appearance of indifference until she moves on completely.

  I do mentally understand that the recycling and breadcrumbs have nothing to do with love or missing me or even who I am. More to do with her own validation and ego. Not all of them do that, I think of it like ghosts. Some souls are stuck searching for an unresolved issues. Some BPDs are stuck validating something they missed in the relationship or sometimes it’s even for pure revenge.

 That part about giving yourself wisdom…same here. When I’m giving advice it sounds like I got it all under control. Mentally, I do, and being practical, result oriented individual I did take all the legal and logistic breakup steps with resolve and never going back on any.

 Then again can I stop thinking about her every day ? Can I stop partially reciprocating her recycles or bread crumbs?  That’s a different story. I do get stronger, slowly, but it has been the hardest emotional ordeal I had to deal with, and I dealt with more serious issues - practically- before.

I'm just catching up with this thread and I completely agree with everything above. I am they same type of person and have the same feelings towards my now exwBPD.

We are all idealistic, romantic dreamers. Don't give up on the dream, just realize that she may have been playing a different role than you thought. Keep posting here and we are all here for each other. There are good people in this world, including so many here.

We can still love our pwBPD and what they represented, what we thought they were, yet still protect ourselves and move on to healthier people and relationships. And it really just enables them to continue the bad behavior and abuse if we go back. The only way they will ever get help is if they hit rock bottom and their disordered behaviors stop working, and even then it's a long shot. The kindest thing we can do for them and us is emotionally detach and put up boundaries and a support system. I'm glad you are posting on here and getting therapy, both have been a life saver (literally I think) for me.

I too had many happy memories and good years with her, and the cognitive dissonance of knowing where to put those in my emotional mind are one of the hardest parts of this for me. I think it's something we all struggle with as the nons who can see shades of grey, as you said above. I'm also trying to think really critically about what even the good years were actually like, even looking at some old texts from those times and talking to family and friends who were also present (before she began her campaign to isolate me from family and friends, which is also common in abusers I now know) and there were cracks in the mask, red flags of abuse and disfunction to come that I hope I would see now. This helps to dispel the FOG and see things more objectively and realistically.

A mentor of mine told me that I don't have to hate her or even stop loving her, but she no longer fits the requirements for the wife role in my life. Sounds like it's the same there.

I also feel sometimes like I'm posting advice for myself as much as anyone and it's nice to know that y'all feel the same haha

Stay strong everyone and have a great weekend. We can do it!

Also the cocaine addict metaphor above is a helpful one. These relationships really are addictive and just as harmful, chemically it's the same in the brain in many ways, and the intermittent reinforcement we were subjected to is a powerful form of addictive emotional abuse. It helps to remind myself that I'm breaking an addiction, some pain and withdrawal is normal, and that it's worth it to be "clean" and healthy in the future, before the addiction to pwBPD destroys my life and future. Also not to be too hard on ourselves when "withdrawing" and that we will re-acclimate to healthy relationships and relapses hopefully don't happen but if they do it's understandable and to get back on the wagon ASAP (this didn't happen thank God but I know that it does with recycles etc and I have to guard against it).