BPDFamily.com

My uBPDw got upset with me yesterday because she didn't like the way I interacted with her when I got home from work.  This prompted something a little later in the afternoon after I had went and picked up the kids.  I don't know if she was actually looking through my search history on my laptop or if she was genuinely using it and what she says really happened.  Anyway, she claims something popped up warning of possible viruses attempting to infect the computer because of searches made in private browsing mode.  She went through a description of terms supposedly used in the warning and the research she had done about what it was.  I questioned the private browsing because I know that on my laptop it is referred to as incognito mode instead because that is what I use when I am reading and posting here on the forums while at home on my laptop.  Of course her assumption and accusation (without directly stating it) is that I was looking at "things" I shouldn't have been looking at and attempting to hide it from her.  Which I was not by the way.  This forum is the only thing that I use the incognito mode for.  Anyway, fortunately she provided my out by saying that the private browsing was apparently something that had to be downloaded to the computer.  I promised her I had not downloaded anything which is 100% true.  I chose to focus on that so that I could be open and truthful with her and not have to face the dilemma of lying.  Honestly, had she have pressed it, I would have told her the truth.  I'm just curious if anyone here has ever had their pwBPD discover that they are using this online community or just had to admit it to them for some reason?  How did it go?  What did you do to handle it?

She continues to tell me she can tell that something is going on with me, and obviously she is right.  Before it reaches a point where she is accusing me of terrible things which could get ugly if she ever actually decided to divorce, I would tell her the truth (and show her for that matter).  Even if that was a total blow up and least there could be no false allegations on that regard for legal matters

If you do disclose your suspicions that she has a personality disorder, it’s a step that can never be walked back.

I’m all about subterfuge in cases like this. Why not develop a weird hobby that you’re embarrassed about, such as researching antique automobiles? That way you’d have a reason for incognito mode.

I use incognito mode regularly because I’m someone who has multiple windows open constantly. I always keep a few things on the incognito page, such as current weather conditions, a local news reporting site, Covid totals in our area, the local pollen report, etc. That way I can change from this page to another in a hurry if I need to, as well as access info I regularly use daily.

That doesn't fit my personality and she is fully aware of it.  I'm fully open about the things I'm interested in and do not care what other people think about my hobbies.  I would never be embarrassed by anything that I'm interested in and she knows that.  She often asks me how I can so easily not care what other people think.  I tell her other people's opinions about me don't matter.  I don't care what kind of interests/hobbies they have so why should I care what they think about mine.  If they don't like mine then they can just not do it.  It would be extremely suspicious to her (and rightfully so) for me to tell her I had a hobby or interest that I was embarrassed about having anyone know about.  Also that would be a lie and I'm just not willing to do that

I don't want to disclose it right now but I was just curious if someone else ever had something like this happen where they had no choice but to reveal it

I don't think you need to be honest or upfront, or provide full disclosure on anything.

It sounds bad, but yes, on this sort of thing go ahead and lie if you have to.  Honesty isn't respected, or appreciated or even reciprocated by them.

I'd add that BPDxw would always come up with bizarre reasons to need to see my phone or my laptop, and find something to get upset about (even if it was absurd or contradicted something she asked me to do... e.g. I didn't send my mom pics that included her.  Or I did, but she "didn't look good."  etc etc.)

She also would make up stories of installing hacking software to her exes computers to find out who they were messaging, but she was so stupid, she was constantly getting her own laptop hacked or knocked out with malware by clicking on links or downloading things.  

And she tried to hold me to a double standard in who she connected with online or messaged and who I did.  And I know for a fact she was going on message boards and complaining about me; she told me so once, during an argument, and claiming "everyone" was on her side and thinks I'm lucky it she didn't divorce me.

So she wasn't being honest with me or fair, or even reasonable.

 after a couple blowups where I tried to be honest or let her snoop through my laptop or phone, I told her she lost her privileges, I password protected everything and didn't give her the passwords.  

why should I be honest with her if she wasn't honest with me? I wasn't cheating, or flirting with other women or texting other women.  She had no reasonable cause to snoop or get upset with me... but regardless she would find something.  all honesty would get me is more grief.  So guess what?  I would just answer no to all her questions and deny anything.  No, you cannot see my phone, no I'm not reading any websites I shouldn't, NO you cannot check.  go to hell.

I'd take the same approach.  

Curious what her "research" turned up. It's hard to know without seeing the actual message, but this sounds like a scam/malware pop-up, not something that was coming from your computer or your anti-virus software. Neither has any idea whether you're in incognito mode or not, and wouldn't send a message specifying that. I'd bet a fair amount of money that the warning was not real. And given that, I don't think you need to divulge anything. I can't imagine that would go well, and it would also probably open you up to having to discuss every message you've ever written here. I also wouldn't bet on being truthful about that somehow lessening the potential for false allegations. If she decides to do that at some point, a confession to being on this site is probably not going to stop her or make a tremendous difference legally.

So, in general, I think you should be confident that nothing that she is talking about is at all related to you being in incognito mode. If you do at some point feel like you have to admit that you use incognito mode, maybe you could start using it for other things now so that you can divulge those uses if it comes up in the future. There are plenty of good reasons to use incognito mode. I use it to log into different email accounts, to get search results that aren't tailored to my browsing history, and to avoid being inundated with ads about something I don't really care about if I happen to be searching some random thing or product or book or whatever. 

I appreciate what you are saying and completely understand the principle you are pointing out.  For me though, it's about my own values.  I set my values for myself and never based upon the values of other people, including my wife.  If she doesn't value honesty and equity that's fine.  I do value it though, and I will not forget who I am morally and ethically because of her actions.  The number one thing I see people say in learning to deal with BPD is make sure you don't lose yourself.  Don't let it change who you are.  So that's what I'm doing. 

I can relate to the double standard thing.  I've always seen that with my uBPDw.  She can never see that there is a double standard but there is.  She can behave or say one thing but it's wrong when I do because it wasn't justified for me the way it is for her.

Yeah I am curious as well.  She wasn't very clear in explaining it.  I also immediately though malware or something when she said it to me.  She is getting heavy into conspiracy theories dealing with covid, illuminati, disney, etc. and I thought she may have been looking into some of it and happened onto an unsecure site or something.  Who knows though.  Side note, does this seem to be typical for BPD?  The conspiracy parts?  It seems like it gives her a temporary sense of purpose or something that she is obviously missing as she deals with BPD.

I have no illusions about the honesty fixing things or stopping all false allegations.  If I do keep it hidden though and it comes out in the midst of legal issues then there is automatically the what else are you hiding and lying about.  I don't plan to divulge my activity here unless it is an absolute must for me

I’m only here off and on, and I have seen the conspiracy question from another poster before. It fits my uBPDh too. He has a cousin pretty deep in the conspiracies too…I would say the cousin has good boundaries though, so I don’t know how much of a link there could be.

Your values of honesty and integrity make sense, and I think it's really helpful for you that you can articulate them and prioritize them here.

You want to have integrity and to value the truth. You don't want to "tell a white lie" or use "slippery language" to get around something.

Yet I think there's something getting missed here, because you're working from a foundation of accepting that the way she describes what you would be doing ("hiding" and "lying") is accurate.

She's preframing the narrative with her vocabulary, and it's a lie.

You're not hiding what you're doing. You're having privacy.

You're not lying about what you're doing if you say "No, I am not going to talk about that." Truthfully saying you are not going to share something is not lying.

Participating in her preframed vocabulary that defines what you're doing on her terms seems incoherent with your values.

What if you (in your head) refused to participate in her dishonest labeling of your actions?

What if you adhered to your values of integrity and truth by taking an honest look at what you were doing, and calling it what it is, instead of calling it what she tries to define it as?

Again:

Having privacy about something is not hiding something.

Truthfully saying you don't want to talk about something isn't lying.

...

The next part is about how committed to your values you are. Because if you decide to be frank (note, not confrontational, just "mildly straightforward", like a 4/10 in intensity, maximum) about your No's, then you can probably expect an "extinction burst" to try to break through your boundaries and values. The question is less "am I lying, am I not lying, am I hiding stuff, am I not hiding stuff" because that's "playing the game" according to her rules. Decline to accept her framing which isn't true -- in fact, it seems that accepting her framing would be dishonoring your values. The question (from my perspective, at least) is:

how do you plan to handle what comes at you, when you stay committed to your values of honesty, privacy, and truth?

Like PeteWitsend did, you may end up changing all your passwords. Decline to believe that it's because you're hiding something -- after all, you're not, right? YOU are the one who knows your intentions inside yourself... not anyone else. You can decide to say "I'm changing my passwords for privacy. I have nothing to hide, and I'm sorry if anyone feels that way. I don't have anything else to discuss about this." That would be honest and straightforward.

One final thought: I wonder if a way to "say something" if she asks a really direct question is something like: "Babe, I am privately getting help to be a better [listener, communicator, XYZ, whatever]. That's all I have to say about that."

Also:


She's going to think whatever she's going to think about "whether you're hiding stuff". Telling her that you're using this site is not going to be the one thing that defuses her paranoia. You could tell her all day long everything you're doing, but if she has a feeling of paranoia, it will not matter what you've actually done or not done. She's going to believe whatever she believes and she will create "something you've hidden" even if there's nothing.

So consider moving forward based on your values and priorities, not on whether you can outflank her accusations/paranoia/whatever by "giving her your milk money" now.

It's fine, normally; the issue of honesty in a relationship with a disordered person isn't so cut and dry though.

And she's not asking what sites you're looking at out of concern for you; she wants something to attack you with.  Why volunteer one?

Think of it this way: if she said to you, "I hate you and want to hurt you.  Got any weapons I can use?"  Would you feel honor bound to tell her there's a knife in the drawer to her left?

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand what you are saying about the honesty issue in regard to how it works between a non BPD and a pwBPD.  The angle I'm coming from though is not about her and I but rather about God and I.  Are there times when withholding the truth can be acceptable?  Yes probably so.  Perhaps in the "kill you" scenario you mentioned.  I think that's an entirely different thing though. 

I don't expect my honesty with her to get anywhere as far as her and I are concerned.  It's completely about keeping my integrity and not losing sight of who I am in the midst of some adversity.  I understand everything being talked about in this thread as far as the psychology of it all goes.  In my life though, that psychology, as true as it may be, must be intertwined with faith.  Psychology has a pretty good grip on how the human mind works.  That doesn't mean that it's always ok just because it is true.  From my perspective it's good to know how the mind works so that you can pinpoint the ways you need to change how it works

Thank you for the reply.  You have provided me a perspective I had not put in my mind yet.  I'll say two things in response:

1) She hasn't accused me of lying or hiding anything at this point.  I just put in another post that at the moment I'm not looking at this from the her and I perspective but the God and I perspective.  The terminology of lying or hiding is completely mine at this point. 

2) I agree with you.  I could take the option of saying I'm exercising my right to privacy.  You are correct that the statement would be as truthful as anything I could say.  Thank you for bringing that up.

The part about privately getting help to be better is already an issue of its own.  I am working on myself to be a better communicator and not walk on eggshells.  When she starts in on why I am the way I am and why I'm not working on the marriage I tell her that I am working on myself to be better at things in order to help us as a whole.  She doesn't think I should be working on myself by myself.  She thinks it's selfish and that I should be including her in the work.  Tells me I make it all about me and not about we.  So using that in this regard would probably go much the same way

In my experience, BPDxw viewed any attempts by me to seek help or advice from someone other than her as a threat.  She seemed to feel a need to control the narrative, mainly by arguing what I believed was false or wrong, and things that were said were not said, and vice versa.  "gaslighting" in the classic sense.

She was angry that I went to counseling by myself... demanded to know who I saw and when. And gave me a lot of grief about this for an ongoing period of time.  

 And on another occasion when I told her I was sick of how often she picked fights, she insisted we didn't fight that much.  I told her we did every single week, and I was keeping track, she got enraged over that, demanded to see my journal, insisted I was planning on divorcing her (I was not thinking about that at the time), and said she had to protect herself (and used that to justify a variety of lousy behaviors and actions on her own part)

So she'll probably demand you stop reading this site, give her access to your account, read the site herself and demand to know who you are, insist you promise not to read this site or other sites, and generally make your life miserable over this perceived threat and violation of her trust.  

If you have trouble lying, even to protect yourself and preserve your own right to privacy, you could pull a Ronald Reagan and just say "I don't recall reading any websites on private mode."  Then correct her that it comes already installed on a computer and you were not using it.  then change the subject.  or ask her why she doesn't trust you.  

Tech tip: if you are using private/incognito mode on your laptop or phone (and you should be!) make sure to close out of them when your not on your phone or laptop.  You can still bring them up and see the site you were on if not.

Curious if a partner would be able to see if the other has been accessing browsers in private or incognito mode otherwise... I think they'd need to be relatively tech savvy to look up the device log, and see what apps were used.  even then, I'm not sure if using incognito would show up.

If they installed a keystroke tracker, they could see what you've been typing (which would include any URLs visited).  But I don't know how easy it is to install one and conceal it.

Yeah I'm not sure what to make of her story yet.  I always close it out when I finish.  I really suspect some kind of malware attempt or something.  But she hasn't brought it back up since so whatever.  I just know it's in her mind.  So at some point it will be brought  back into the picture.  Everything always does. 

Our situations sound similar.  I always feel she is controlling the narrative.  Her questions are specific and seem loaded and directive.  Many times she "knows" my answer before I give it and already has the follow up question or comment ready.  Or some kind of backward bending correlation as to how it means I feel or am saying something that I'm not.  Like "you said A and I know B so that means C" type of thing

“Discretion is the better part of valor.”   Falstaff in King Henry the Fourth, Part One, by William Shakespeare

I understand that it’s important for you to remain true to your values of honesty in keeping with your spiritual commitment.

The first definition of honesty that came up was “moral correctness.” To me, that is a more encompassing definition than *telling on yourself*.

You have a suspicion that she has BPD. You’ve undoubtedly read that professionals are aligned in believing that disclosing that to a person is extremely damaging and counterproductive, unless in a therapeutic setting, and even then, often it’s not recommended.

So what would the “moral correctness” be? Does absolute candor weigh more prominently in your mind than its potential damaging consequences?

I don't want to tell her.  I am not trying to make a choice on whether or not to tell her of my suspicions.  I want to make sure I'm not being confusing there.  Clearly it would not be in her best interest to do that.  At the same time psychology and morality are two different things.  Something being a psychological truth does not make it a morally correct standard.  If the psychological truth or benefits ever cross the threshold of morality then I will be inclined to have to change my mind about the first two sentences in this post.  I don't expect that to be the case.  I was just curious if anyone had ever found themselves in a compromising position that seemed to make their admission of using this site a necessity.  Sometimes not exposing the truth for the sake of a person is ok.  However, sometimes exposing the truth despite the fact that it may emotionally hurt someone is also necessary.  I'm not saying that this is the case here

Let’s take psychology out of the equation here.

If by telling her she has BPD irredeemably hurts her, is that morally correct to do?

If sharing that you are posting here demonstrates that you believe she has BPD, is that a morally correct thing to do?

As it stands now no, that's why I have no intention of doing it.  The difficult thing with morality though is that the situation can change the application of the standard.  What's not correct now can be correct later if certain factors change the situation.  The present answer to your question though is no, right now it would not be correct.  Therefore, I am not doing it

You don't need to make anything out of it.  Assuming she isn't just blatantly lying when she claims she knows you were using Incognito mode, and she actually believes it, her memory or understanding of this all might be so disordered as to be meaningless.
 
So don't base your own decisions on something she (or any pwBPD) claims.  You're building your house on a foundation of sand, so to speak (to use a Biblical analogy for you).

In my experience, BPDxw had no problem lying when it suited her, or she was pushing a certain narrative and needed "evidence" to support it.  And she'd also ask leading questions or jump to conclusions, regardless of what I said.  She'd get angry with me for answering a question honestly, when she otherwise had no idea of knowing it. 

And I'm not talking about "does this dress make me look fat?" or "how do you like my new hair?" kinda questions either  :)

I see what you did there  lol  yes that's a good point.  I know she'll spin it into something and there is no way of knowing what.  That's my intuitive mind at work.  I like to figure out what I don't know.  The reality is there, somewhere, waiting to be discovered.  My mind just never turns off, and that has nothing to do with BPDw

Maybe we were dealing with the same person haha I know what that's like.  Mine doesn't care to lie either.  I actually don't think she lies to me that often but I see her do it to others so often.  Anything to help her story.

I hate answering questions.  She always wants to know exactly what I think and feel until I tell her.  Then she says I'd have been better off saying nothing.  So next time I say nothing.  Then she tells me I don't care about her because I won't answer her questions

I'm the same way.  

It would gnaw at me that she could be dishonest to my face, while demanding I be honest with her.  The double standards were infuriating to someone like me, who prides themselves on trying to see things from other peoples' views, and being as fair as possible.  But that fairness probably didn't serve me well, when dealing with a pwBPD.  

The thing I couldn't understand is how she expected all this would play out.  She claimed she didn't want a divorce and loved me, but would undermine all that by her actions.  

I've accepted that I just can't know what was in her mind, and also that it doesn't matter.  given the nature of behavioral disorders it probably wouldn't make sense anyway.  

Just water under the bridge.  

Omg thisssss! So many frickin questions. Usually infuriating nonsensical stuff that you absolutely know is a trap which ever way you answer. I also get told what I feel and why I did things do often although finally put my foot down and set a boundary about that. Which didn't go down well... unsurprisingly!

Side note, does this seem to be typical for BPD?  The conspiracy parts?

Not exactly conspiracies but all kinds of spiritual thinking and alternative views.
One example -> Billie Eilish saw into future with "bury a friend", subconsciously she knew it would be a war soon (the russian invasion).
Usually her theories fits well into what she needs to believe at the moment.


If she would find about about this website it would be a catastrophe.

Oh man, hearing my uBPDw lie about the stupidest things is so frustrating to see.  Dumb "little lies" like she tells our toddler "you can't go outside right now because the mosquitoes will get you" even when it's too cold for mosquitos to be out and there are no mosquitos. 

IF my wife found out I was reading information on BPD, I would probably try to just remain calm and brush it off... saying something like - oh it just sounded interesting.  Not sure why but it just did.  I like psychology blah blah.  Telling her why I was interested would obviously be bad... and quite frankly none of her business.  The best thing you could do in this situation is to be oblivious and then change the subject.  Much like you would do if a toddler was asking you a question about where babies come from... I'm only half joking.

I had a bad experience a couple of days ago...

We have some Sonos/Alexa thing. My young children can work it, I struggle. I don't know what they said to it but I heard Alexa respond, "Now playing your latest Kindle purchase." And then the audible version of a book began playing. I freaked out because the last book I bought was about Toxic Shame. Bought because we all know that shame is at the root of BPD. So I was expecting that book to be read out loud. Fortunately it was a completely different book, one that I actually bought a year ago.

(Can you go into someone's house and say "Alexa, list the last items viewed on Amazon," and hear what sex toys your neighbor has been looking at?)

Yes that makes sense.  Lately my wife had started in on all this type of stuff.  It's like it temporarily fills that void for her or something.  Or maybe just gets her mind off the other stuff for a while. Who knows

My wife does the exact same thing.  Rather than telling our 4 year old he can't do something and then just enforcing it, she will make up something like that.  I don't understand it at all.  It's like she has to reason with him instead of just parenting him.

I understand what you are saying though.  I have walking on eggshells in my kindle app on my phone also.  She tends to look at things on my phone from time to time.  Saw her make a face last night and wondered if she had opened the app and seen the book.  No explosion though so I guess not.

I always wondered if almost all the things they allege or accuse others of doing is simply a matter of projection on their part.  

Sometimes when our daughter would do something well, or something I asked her to, I'd say "Thank you, that makes me so happy." or "Thank you, I like seeing you keep XYZ clean."  I didn't think anything of it, because I recall almost every adult saying the same thing to me growing up, when I'd do something they asked.  But BPDxw would snap at me, "DON'T MAKE HER RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR HAPPINESS."  

I realized over time this was ironic, since I was expected to be responsible for BPDxw's happiness... being subjected to frequent sob sessions because I didn't love her enough, or didn't support her enough, etc.  Was she clueless, or did she understand that since everyone else in the house was responsible for her mood, there was no space to allow other's room to express themselves this way?

Anyways, @who_knows11, has your wife continued to hound you about the private/incognito mode, or has she dropped it for now?  

EXACTLY!  The amount of times she yelled at our son this weekend when he was acting up and threatened "time out" but NEVER gave it to him is crazy.  I know his crying is triggering to her so she does whatever it takes to prevent it... Time out causes him to cry... like most kids.

Dropped.  It really didn't last long at all.  Not even a day.  However, I know it's stored somewhere, making its way through the algorithm looking for the right time to pop up in the recommended talking points.

Projection has to the undermining factor.  Every time I spend three or four "discussions" expressing my feelings about what I think she is doing, it only take a couple weeks for her to all of a sudden accuse me of the same thing.  It's not just regurgitation though because I'm careful to explain my thoughts with out using the label that goes along with it.  When I started catching some of her narcissistic tendencies and would talk about them without pointing out the narcissism in it, it took about two weeks and she suddenly started telling me she believes I'm a narcissist.  Did the same thing with the walking on egg shells feeling.  It's amazing

Yep, same for sure.  Her grandmother was at our house yesterday for Easter and she told me privately that we don't need anymore kids because all my wife does is yell at them.  She begs for hugs and kisses and them yells and screams all within minutes.  Its a vicious cycle that unfortunately cycles through multiple times a day.  My oldest is learning though.  If he can take the yelling and push the right buttons he can get whatever he wants.  When he is in trouble by me he wants his mommy because all she'll do is yell at him.  To much inconvenience to actually punish him and he knows it.  But once that's over and he wants actual interaction it's back to me.  When they are hurt and crying they want me instead of her and she hates it.  It's opposite of the normal for sure. 

Was speaking of projection with PeteWitsEnd and I see it here too.  I think she realizes what the interactions with him are like because she is starting to tell me that the way I treat her is starting to affect him.  I figure she knows that the way she behaves is what is actual starting to affect him so she is beginning to project that onto me.  The kids are totally different people when they are alone with me as opposed to being alone with her or even with the two of us together.  She points it out all the time too

I often felt like BPDxw was another child I had to take care of.  Certainly not a partner, even after she got a job and started working.  There was always more work for me to do.

I suppose they're more like teenagers; they can help watch younger kids.  But they're needy all the same, and as emotionally frantic as teenagers, if not more.  Comparing pwBPD to teenagers is probably an insult to teenagers though.  lol

I usually get told I'm the extra child that she has to take care of lol

I've often thought they work on that childlike emotional level.  That's why she struggles with our young kids.  Emotionally she is still 4-6 years old.  Our oldest is also 4.  When you put two 4 year olds in the same room there won't be a lot of peace

haha, this is so true... so much so that I accidentally put a bib on my wife the other day when we were at the ice cream shop.  I meant to put it on my 1 year old... true story.  Made me laugh so hard. 

I have often felt this same sentiment with my pwBPD. The teenager descriptor really encompasses a lot. It's like the pwBPD is just adult enough that you can sometimes forget that they do not have the full command of their executive function you would expect from an adult. There's also a big push and pull (at least in my experience) between the "just tell me what to do" and "stop telling me what to do" attitudes.

This block of text made me laugh pretty hard. I can definitely relate. I feel like just knowing this is what is going on can be really helpful to how you approach this stuff. It you know it's not really about you, that it's part of an automatic response to the other person's discomfort (their "stress algorithm", if you will), I think maybe it's easier to avoid getting enmeshed with these kinds of conversations.