BPDFamily.com

Hi all, I was unsure what board to post on, bettering och conflicted, but I chose this board.

I've been listening to a podcast about sects and cults (it's a quality podcast, not only entertainment) and I've been thinking a lot about this. I don't know if I'm biased, but I find so many similarities between my own life and the description of being part of a sect or cult. Even if the specifics differ between cults, they are often quite predictable. I'm quite sure that cult leaders often have personality disorders, but maybe not all pwbpd have cult leader personalities.

I now very much relate to people who has escaped cults. The "magic" has disappeared and I can't understand what I've been thinking. At the same time, it's not easy to only partly buy into the message of the cult. Either you're in or you're out. So this in between stage I'm in now is impossible, it won't last forever, something will change. But I'm unsure where it's headed.


Any thoughts about cults vs. life with a pwbpd?



PS.
I feel that the prime time of traditional cults has passed. I suspect that cults has changed shape because people know too much about traditional cults. In time we will learn about more and more cults from the 2020s.

I think one similarity is the expectation to "buy into" the world view of the cult and not question or think independent thoughts.

Cults use deliberate tactics to attract and keep members. I don't think a pwBPD consciously does this for similar reasons( unless they are truly sociopathic which few are) but these are similar to manipulations to get what they want.

For cults, the initial meeting with a new potential member is "love bombing"- join us, we love you. Then the message that their way is the one true way- there are no others. I don't see as much of this with BPD but the sense is that to get along, the partner agrees with them.

Another one cults use is exhaustion- limiting sleep for instance and constant work for the cult. With BPD, I think the exhaustion is emotional secondary to the dysfunctional relationship.

With the cult though, there's a sense of love, acceptance, and belonging among members of the cult who all share one mindset. It's the outsiders who are rejected. This may be why cults have an appeal to people who seek that. I don't think that feeling is the same in a family with BPD where the pwBPD may project their uncomfortable feelings on to the person(s) closest to them.

Great discussion topic.

Interestingly, I just finished reading "Combating Cult Mind Control" by Steven Hassan, who as a college student was a member of the Moonies. Great book, you may really enjoy it if you're interested in the topic. He comes at it from an angle of "in the past, intense deprogramming techniques were used to get people out of cults, but there may be better ways now, so here are some ways to combat mind control that are less physically forceful and more engaging of the person's mind".

I may need to come back to have more time to fully write out my thoughts on the kids' life with Mom and Stepdad, but he has strong NPD traits and a charismatic personality and there are STRONG cult-y vibes in their family setup. Less "robes and chanting" and more:

"you're either with us or not"
"we're your real family [not Dad, who we call by his first name]"
"when you're with us, it's warmth and love, and it's coldness and rejection and replacement if you're not with our program"
"what our family does is the most important, not what you want to do or what Dad's house does"
"Stepdad knows what's best for you"
"you need to work to keep the family narrative going"
"we are the ones who have cornered the market on true insight and emotional health"
"look at all these people who flock to us for our wisdom and guidance"
"our family believes ___________"

So, to bring together your and Notwendy's points... I see:


going on in the kids' life at Mom's house.

So while this dynamic may happen less between two romantic partners, one of whom has a PD, I actually do think the dynamic is there in the BPD family system. Isn't the BPD family system message strongly one of "your loyalty is to the family, no matter what... don't trust your actual observations, you need to be more committed to the family narrative of perfection, togetherness, it's all fine, we're superior, we have no problems... don't you dare leave the system, if you do, you're no longer one of the family"...?

Perhaps the content of the beliefs is less "wacky" than some cults... i.e., the content of the family system beliefs is less about "Dad is actually the Messiah... Mom receives personal revelations from the spirit world... Brother has a special meditative channel to true oneness..." and more about "our family has it together... our family is the one doing it right... ". So I believe that content difference can make it difficult to identify that the dynamics are actually very similar. "Oh, well, your wife isn't talking about receiving messages from God, and she's not chanting or trying to recruit people? It isn't really a cult" -- but actually it's basically the same structure.

Perhaps we could reserve the word "cult" as a specific sub-identifier for that same structure but with particular content (i.e. spiritually- or messianically- or apocalyptically-themed content) and use Hassan's idea of "mind control" for that same structure with any or with more generic content. IDK... food for thought.

...

Re: your P.S.:


Also interesting that Hassan makes a similar point. Again, less "robes and chanting" and more multi-level marketing, meditation/"awareness", Buddhism, retreats, therapeutic language, etc.

One thing I hear a lot in cults is the theme of Good vs. Evil.
- One persons (the leader or the prophets) view decides what is evil.
- The society believe in lies, but the cult is enlightened.
- To fight evil, they use punishment.
- They blame the members for internal problems, if only people would do what they're told.
- You're either good or bad in the eyes of the "leader".

kells
Perhaps we could reserve the word "cult" as a specific sub-identifier for that same structure but with particular content (i.e. spiritually- or messianically- or apocalyptically-themed content) and use Hassan's idea of "mind control" for that same structure with any or with more generic content. IDK... food for thought.

You might be right, that's what this is. The same structure but different content.

Eww Kells. I am so sorry the kids are subjected to this.

I agree it's a family thing. I've described my mother's family as cult-like. For one, they are enmeshed and always together in one large group. My BPD mother is "one of them" but they never really included us kids. We have discussed this, as even when we were kids visiting them, we felt like outsiders somehow.

I think the cost of acceptance is to join them in this in their group thinking but it feels so inauthentic. I appreciate people as individuals.

Good points.

A sense of belonging and purpose is key. I think pwBPD also wants this. One big difference is that a cult has more members than a family does. So the cult leader and other people high up in the hierarchy has a lot of enablers, and a lot more going on. The leadership is divided, the creative cult leader has the ideas and someone high up in the hierarchy is tasked with more of the dirty work.

What I'm wondering is, are cults a more  developed version of a dysfunctional family, where delusions have taken a more concrete form and involves more people and positions in a hierarchy. And one important factor is an interest in the theme good vs evil in the leader.

This is so timely for me.  Maybe my T listens to the same podcast.  Which is a joke but also probably true because yesterday she said she had been thinking that I needed "deprogramming" as if I had been brainwashed.  And I think she mentioned a podcast or documentary.

It's a hard message to take in.  It makes sense that she sees me like that - as she will not get off my marriage for even a minute in therapy.  She gets very uninterested when I try to talk about my FOO or my kids or career or anything. 

I think it's weird but I also appreciate what she's doing.

I thought this point was super interesting:


I'm also feeling in this in between stage.  I'm not "in" anymore but I'm also not packing a bag or calling lawyers or even admitting to her how separate I want to be.  But this "I'm taking time" strategy is already failing in terms of stability.  Well, it's great for my stability but it seems to be finishing off the marriage.

Here's my question though - since I can't intellectually engaged in the bigger issue right now:  how does anyone find a sustainable balance with a pwBPD?  Do you find a new family system that isn't a cult?  Or do you endure a bit of the sect-like influence?

I think this is my big issue too if I understand you correctly. Is it even possible to be in a romantic relationship with someone if you're not on their side... I feel like I'm an under cover agent (a traitor) in my marriage. I report to you, I'm a BPDFamily agent, and it has made me more self confident than I have ever been before.

I don't think I'm ever going back to being enmeshed, but I'm confused... No feelings of love, no trust, no companionship, nothing that makes a partnership worth something. I have chosen side, and it's not my wife's side. Is that feelings that naturally comes from trying to not be enmeshed, or is the relationship hanging by a thread. What's keeping me besides FOG, is the thought that my personal journey this last year, is leading me somewhere, and I'm waiting for an AHA-moment when I know if I can stay or if I have to leave. I'm thinking that a few months from now I will have learned so much that I don't realize yet.

I think it's a question of severity- when does it cross the line? All families have a sort of unspoken rules and rituals, but I think the line is between is it a group of individuals or is everyone enmeshed? Likewise, I think there are similarities between cults and mainstream religion. There's a common belief system in religion but each person is an individual. Cults separate the members from their families and friends who are not members to a much larger extent than mainstream religions do.

I think the line becomes - when is it dysfunctional emotionally to all people in the family? When do individuals have to suspend their own sense of reality and buy into the distorted thinking of the dysfunctional family member?

No two people are exactly alike, and so the insistence that they must be completely in alliance negates individuality. However, I also think they need to be aligned on enough things to be together. It's about boundaries. What is you, and what is them.

Patricia Evans' book "Controlling People" has an interesting description of this thinking. The book isn't specifically about BPD but looks at abusive behaviors. In her books, the abuser is male, the victim is female but this can be with any gender ( thanks to Johnny Depp).

The controlling person sees their partner as an emotional support, similar to a Teddy Bear. In their fantasy, Teddy is always supportive, there when needed. So when/if Teddy demonstrates their own individuality, the controlling person feels threatened. In the book, it leads to abusing Teddy if Teddy asserts themselves.

In my own family, I did feel as if my father was brainwashed. I think this had to be inevitable over time, as he was with my BPD mother most of the time. BPD speaks in a lecturing style. She will call me up and "lecture" about something and then say "don't you agree?" over and over. Although she is manipulative, I don't think she's intending to brainwash- I think she's vocalizing her own thinking and then prompting us for validation.

One way we were expected to suspend our own sense of reality was with her behavior. It is obviously disordered. Yet, we were not allowed to say anything about it, not to her or anyone else. The main rule of the family was "mother is normal". I can understand her need to be validated and accepted, but it also required we not acknowledge what we could see.

Can you have a romantic relationship with someone like this if you don't adopt their mindset? Again, I think it depends on the severity- it is a spectrum, and if you can hold on to your own individual thinking and sense of self. I think the first step is to turn the focus from them to you, and figure out who you are and what your boundaries are. The other person may or may not adjust. While you don't know the outcome of trying this, it will probably be clearer over time.







 

this is kinda weird because I had a conversation with my T about this recently!'

It's not that my pwubpd is like a cult leader but the experience of becoming aware of what's actually been happening in our relationship and starting to come out of this fog has been a mind blowing and often disorienting thing. And I described it a bit like suddenly realising you've been brainwashed and in a cult!

I guess for me it's because for the longest time I had no idea what was wrong. Was it me? Him? Both of us? Was I overthinking It? Was it actually just a normal relationship? It was also massively because I would try and make sense of his complaints, demands, statements, etc as if they were rational logical things.

Understanding and being able to see the dysfunctional or unhealthy mechanisms in action is a bit like that bit on the matrix where everything slows down and neo sees it as it actually is!

But I'm still here, one foot in, one foot out. Still very much affected by the switches (right now I have a kind, calm, helpful, reasonable partner! Last week? The opposite!)

Notwendy

Thanks, and I agree. Knowing your mother, do you think your father could have stayed with her and also changed himself to being emotionally healthy? I mean it always works for a while to stay, but over time?

Dancingbear

I relate to everything you wrote.

For me, I actually believed her and me was such a perfect couple, I was devastated when she was disappointed in me because I needed to believe in us. Now I really feel that I have been starting to grieve "us" while still being together. She's so sweet but I don't want her near me anymore.

15years-
I think in my father's situation, he could only do what was available at the time. Little was known about BPD when he married my mother. The internet wasn't available. I think there were several factors going on that made knowing what to do difficult.

First was the reluctance to discuss mental illness at the time. Also, for my mother, the main choice was to get married and be a housewife. Most women didn't have a job outside the home. I don't think her family had any idea and if the were concerned, considering a mental illness would not have helped- therapists didn't know much at the time, and doing so may have hurt her prospect for marriage then.

My mother was socially capable and very pretty. Men were attracted to her. My father was smitten. They married young after a quick courtship. I doubt he had any idea.

I don't think he came from a dysfunctional family. Due to hard work on his part, he became very successful. Being very capable, I think he believed he could help my mother. I think something was known quickly as she had psychiatric help early in the relationship. But again, with little understanding of BPD at the time, it has not been effective.

Earlier, he seemed to resist her demands some and they argued a lot. He also had ways of coping, work was an escape. His family helped with child care. But he tended to appease her to keep the peace.

It was when Dad got older and I visited them that I saw the full picture. Whatever she said- ruled. They seemed enmeshed. She listened in on his phone calls, read his emails. Mostly he was very concerned about her.

So, I can not answer the "what if he had done something different" as I think he did what he knew to do at the time, and there wasn't much to know. However I think I did see what happens when the response is appeasement and enabling. It may have brought a temporary reprieve from the current stress, but over time, the enabling didn't lead to her learning other ways to manage her distress- if that were even possible-so it seemed to be the only way to manage conflict. I think we do know more now and so hopefully that can make a difference.