BPDFamily.com

I am not the only one that deals with the anger rollercoasters that result from every day “spilled milk” problems.

A cat toy breaks.   A bill payment was made a day later than was desired (with ZERO effects- as it’s not due for another 2 weeks and it has no bad effects on cash flow at all).   We ran out of Kleenex and she wasn’t told about it until 3 hours later.   Dinner burns or is undercooked slightly.  I ate the last of the potato chips and she was internally planning on eating them.

Unfortunately, a healthy mind can get past these “mortal wounds” but a pwBPD absolutely cannot get past the perception of a CLEAR lack of respect and CLEAR intentional injury.

There are a few ways to handle the onslaught of rage and anger:

1.  Ignore it and walk away.
2.  Enforce a boundary and explain that we will discuss the issue when I am better mentally prepared.
3.  Sit and suffer the abusive word salad about how I am a lazy narcissist who only cares about myself.
4.  Argue back

1, 3 and 4 are all bad ideas from the gate.

Enforcing the boundary is clearly the best option- but that leaves the question- how do I keep my word to re-engage in a problem that is simply a normal factor of life?  There is no way that I can figure out how to communicate and come to an agreement with her that running out of potato chips or paying a bill one day later than was asked for despite it NOT being late and the fact that we aren’t in any financial problems as a result…

Hello Boogie,

is there a way to validate every day disappointments?   Yes.   Sure.   But lets take a minute to talk about what validation is, and what it isn't.

Validation, validation, validation.     its not easy.   its complex.   like most things its easier to say what its not.      its not agreement.    its is not a magic pill that cures a rage.    its shouldn't be the tool when a rage is under way.

validation can be / should be the tool to use to create a more relaxed, highly supportive environment.    it should be used often when not in a tense conflict laden situation.   it should be sincere.    the saying here is "don't validate the invalid".    my experience was if I tried a validation I didn't truly believe or mean, not only did it fall flat, it usually made the situation worse.

let's use BPDfamily as an example.     this site strives to create a highly validating environment.   where people feel understood and emotionally safe to share difficult things.     Boogie, you've read enough and posted enough that I'm sure you have seen/felt/observed a highly validating thread where posters created a sense of shared experience.     and maybe you've read a few threads that fell a little short of that mark.

that same works in our home lives.   finding what is called the validation target is hard.   not bringing our own frustrations or boiling emotions into the picture is hard.   


I'd guess and say you don't find the bill that went a day late or the potato chips a significant issue.   okay.   that makes sense.     she, however does.    its a difference of opinion that clearly seems to be generating a problem.   she from the point of view of "OMG why does he never take me into consideration".   you from the point of view of "OMG why make does she make a big deal over everything"   

these opposing perspectives fuels conflict.   you said it yourself,  she sees this as disrespect and intentional.    now of course it won't be possible to always validate everything.   but a little well aimed validation is meant to produce a more stable environment.    can you find places where you do respect her opinion?


I agree.   You're right.   Arguing back is unproductive.    tolerating abusive language is damaging to you both.    when she resorts to the lazy narcissist who only cares about himself, she is saying she strongly feels her emotions don't matter to you.    and in this case, she is right.   in a way.    you don't care about the cat toy.    or the Kleenix.   or whatever.    she,  on the other hand, doesn't feel that what she thinks or wants is cared about so she is searching for and providing 'evidence' that proves that point.


if you can't communicate on potato chips or bills than change the validation target.   aim at something different.    if you aren't sure what the target is, ask validating questions to find what is driving the potato chip argument.   

I'd suggest its validating to acknowledge that you have different perspectives and different points of view about cat toys, and kleenix and bills and potato chips.    its validating to both of you.    "yes hon, you are 100% right, we do see this one quite differently, still that doesn't mean I don't care about you."

one of the better books on BPD talks about how pwBPD want to merge into an amoeba like oneness with their significant others.   and that amoeba like oneness must be them.    it makes them feel emotionally safe.

I'd suggest considering validating that there is a difference on how you view these things and then a SET about why that is okay.

what do you think?

'ducks

Definitely not the only one.  I have the same issues with validation.  The only thing I can validate is that she really feels that way.  This is because that's the only thing that I believe is accurate.  To validate something is to prove the accuracy of that something.  I can validate that she really does feel that way, but I cannot validate that she should feel that way because I don't believe that is accurate.  So for me to validate it would not be genuine and we all know how the disingenuous comments go.  She'll say, so you agree that I should feel this way and I'll say well no, I don't agree but I understand that you do feel that way and you are entitled to have your own feelings about things.  To which she will say that I just don't care about her feelings then.  Which is also not true so the same circle happens again.  Yes you believe it, but no it's not true.  If I disagree with the reason for the feeling, then I cannot truthfully validate anything other than the fact that the feeling really does exist for her.  It's all about her being responsible for her own emotions instead of me being responsible for them

Validation can have broad definitions depending upon the situation its used in.

Psychological validation is the recognition of another person's thoughts, and feelings.

To a degree it means accepting those thoughts and feelings without agreeing, approving or proving accuracy.

It recognition.   It's reflection.   In this context it is about the feelings.  Not the facts.

I feel like that is what I was saying.  I can validate that she really does feel that way.  I can accept that she really does feel that way even though I don't agree of approve.  The way her BPD mind works though, is to say "since you know I feel that way then you either agree that I should or you don't care that I do".  Neither of which are true.  If I answer honestly, she then in turn feels invalidated even though psychologically I just validated the way she feels.  As you stated, it's about the feelings and not the facts.  But for a pwBPD, is the problem not that they confuse feelings with facts?

One of my biggest challenges is validating without causing a reaction of, “Im not a child that needs to be told that you understand my feelings!”  Or “You’re not a therapist!  Quit asking me questions about how I feel” or “Just because you repeat/ask about what I said doesn’t mean you care!  You’re just saying that to get off the hook!”

Im often accused of being selfish for doing things for her.   Im selfish and a narcissist because I ONLY do it because I want credit and recognition for it.

Isn't it narcissistic of her to say that, which would make this a projection.

I think it's easy to downplay these accusations or even believe that it's true, "she's kind of right, I did have selfish motives". I think it's scary. It shows how much they need the other person to be the villain.

Boogie,

I would have liked to share some successful recent interactions with my bpdw, but we’re on holiday together and it’s been a hard couple of days with accusations and not feeling close to me and having a terrible holiday etc. I handle it better these days because I know genuinely there is no point on dwelling on her speaking of having a terrible time of it, or worrying as to whether it’s true.

This morning she seemed very angry about how I refused to take a phone call claiming to be from my bank and wanting personal security details and I was like, “heck no but sorry I don’t trust you”. Apparently my wife’s annoyance was because I usually take such calls. Well like no actually I certainly don’t these days.

The things I find easier to validate are those that don’t involve me so much… like she has nothing to wear, nothing fits her, she looks terrible etc. These are examples of my recent post about not being reassuring. It seems to be magically calming when I say extremely little in response to these things. I think she’s just pleased I no longer point out how many clothes she has etc. or that this doesn’t have to ruin our holiday.

Then there was the issue with the instant coffee where she’s jealous cos I like instant coffee so I have coffee first thing and she has to wait till we go out to a coffee shop or drive through… She expressed this… I said, “mmm hmm”. And she said nothing else. And she used to go on and on and I’d be apologising and promising not to have coffee if she wasn’t. She knows I don’t behave like this anymore. So she literally drops it.

So I know with my own relationship that I was apologising far too much and trying to please her, and it seems like this confirmed to my wife that I was treating her poorly. Since I’ve stopped apologising for things I don’t feel I should be sorry for, she seems calmer and like she’s adjusted her expectations to something more sane. I certainly don’t validate as a therapist might. I mostly just say, mmm, mmm hmm or yeah. Not that I’ve been in therapy lol but I perceive they may say something more clever.

Validation is not like a spray bottle filled with vinegar and water that you can spray on a barking dog...   *)  The same can be said about "boundaries"...

Rather than thinking in terms of situational antidotes, think long term lifestyle (or environmental) change - as babyducks said. Think of embracing the concepts and then being deliberate in building them into your relationship. Expect some failure, analyze and fine tune.

While the basic concepts and universal, the advanced implementation must fit the players involved. Like a lot of things in life, there is some trial and error.

And if you don't get it, you will sound like that patronizing telephone customer service person who promises to be very helpful, talks in a very upbeat way, but then makes no effort to help you other than read from the script that basically says "you wasted you time calling me"... followed by "is there anything else I can do today to make your life better?"

Example of "Don't Be Invalidating": Remove sarcasm and teasing from the relationship.

Example of "Validating": Compliment her for making a good meal - when you can.

Example of "Boundaries": Speak about her imaginary (or real) jar of jellybeans and when she pops off about a bill being paid to late, agree that it was wrong (it was) and suggest adding a black jellybean to the jar. She may want 3, you can negotiate. When she validates you, ask if you can put a white jellybean in the jar. This is a way to keep things in perspective (as 15years suggested).

These are light examples (like thankful person's), and some will work with some couple and some wit others - you have to work it to see what helps in your house. There are more foundational examples in these two articles:

https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

This is my point as well.  I'm not convinced my wife actually wants validation.  She does this same thing.  Perhaps uses different responses but the same reaction.  She doesn't want me to understand how she feels, she wants me to agree that I should have been thinking and feeling like she did this whole time.  She wants me to agree that I should act like her instead of acting like me.  Maybe it is narcissism as someone else is saying

I think the concept that they’re looking for agreement, beyond mere validation, signals a lack of confidence. A humorous example occurred yesterday with my husband.

He asked me if I thought he handled a business transaction well. I mentioned a minor unforeseen issue. Immediately the *poor me* part reared it’s head: “I screw up everything.”

I said, “Well, you asked for my opinion.”

“Oh, right,” he said with a smile. And it was over.

Have had the same type of scenarios except her reaction is to tell me I always make it about me.  I respond by saying you asked what I thought so my answer HAD to be about ME.  Then she'll say something like "yeah but all you ever do is disagree with me".  I say well you asked what I think and that is what I think.  Typically a much larger fight immediately follows

If he were to follow up with that sort of response, I would merely shrug. Hard to argue with someone who is responding nonverbally.  *)

If you are recycling in and out of the same kind of conflict, you might want to rethink how you hear what she is asking and how to better respond. This is not uncommon issue in all relationships - BPD traits just make it worse - but this problem transcends BPD.

When it is opportune and this happens again, apologize. A few hours later (or the next day) ask her how she thinks you should have answered the question.

1. She will probably tell you and that is a clue for the future 2. She will likely understand appreciate you asking (which is validating). 3. She might see your point when the table are turned.

Do this from time to time and you will learn how to better communicate with her.


She is being very invalidating. But so are you. And then she can be more invalidating in response and things will spiral. Look, if you partner snaps back at you... don't JADE... it never ends well.

Her:  you always make it about yourself.
You:  OK, let me rephrase my thoughts... blah blah (without referring to you).

Remember, its not an equal relationship - she's volatile - you need to be able to absorb this petty stuff without breaking a sweat.

Oh, and one last thought.

Some times she is just trying to pick a fight... transfer some of her distress to you (as a way of coping). If this is the case (and you can learn to pretty much recognize it when its coming) the best thing is to let her get all out and then exit gracefully. For example, continue to look at her after she stops - leave a pregnant pause and say, that's a lot for me to think about and move on.

You may be surprised at how blowing up on you made her feel better and 2 hours later she has moved on (returned to baseline).

There is no point in getting emotionally engaged in this... but you also don't want to be invalidating.

My ex had a habit of slamming cabinets and doors in her prior relationship. I finally experienced it - she slammed and broke the hardware on the from door.It was clear she was looking to tangle. I never looked up from the computer. She never did it again.

This is one of the things I’m getting to grips with and realising it works better to withdraw myself and give my wife time alone to deal with her feelings. When she got angry about me not taking the call from the bank… I wasn’t going to say, “I understand it’s upsetting for you” it just seemed ridiculous. So I spoke my case and told her I was going outside. We are staying in a caravan at the moment so I don’t go far but going outside gets me away for a bit.

A big challenge for me is that J often has internal thoughts and makes a BIG assumption that i should automatically know what they are and the conclusions she also makes.

“Could you move the vacuum out of the way?”

I either move it some place or ask “where would you like it to go?”

In either situation, “USE YOUR BRAIN!  Where does it go?” 

Or

“That’s not where it goes!”

Agreed. That can be word salad.  Here is another:  "I apologize if I what I may have done may have upset you".

Curious what was the issue about the bank call?

How do you respond when she talks to you like this? My wife used to treat me like this a lot more. I believe it was because I was continually apologising and desperate to please her. Once I was able to let that go, and focused (internally) on accepting her reaction and not trying to change it, she started to treat me with more respect. I have (almost) eliminated such behaviour. In the past, I have actually stopped drinking coffee because she decided she wanted to stop so told me I should too. It would be easy to fall back into such patterns of obeying her every word. But I knew (strongly suspected) she was going to challenge me on the coffee-drinking. I knew that the best response was to say “mmm hmm” and astonishingly that has been enough to stop her mentioning it again (for now). It was very powerful in my case to learn to say, “I don’t wish to be spoken to like this. If you continue then I am going to go do x” She did shout and screech about it but since I played it out and followed through with my intentions a few times she treats me better because she does not like to be “left”.

It is possible the bank were trying to call me. I had spoken to them the day before about letting us off our final mortgage payment as we are moving away and going to pay off our mortgage and become mortgage-free (by down sizing and moving away) next month (a decision we made due to financial difficulties). They said no (of course) but then said it could possibly be arranged but would affect my (personal) credit file, so I said no. My wife is already in such arrangements with her debtors. She (appears to have) learnt much from getting herself into a ridiculous amount of debt which she couldn’t afford to pay back. Once we sell the house she intends to never use credit cards again. So actually the reason for her odd reaction has only now become clear to me as I wrote this answer: she wants me to have poor credit, so that I’m like her (even though her credit rating affects me it isn’t really that bad). I get the impression this credit problem is far worse in the UK because of how easy it is to get credit. My wife was in over UK£20k credit card and loan debt by age 23, even though she had never held down a full time job or managed to work more than a few hours a week. But thanks for helping to bring this answer to light for me Skip! Maybe my wife has stopped saying, “do as I do” because I started saying, “no”.

once a long time ago my partner and I were doing some organizing and sorting and cleaning up of things that had accumulated.    they were my things.    and I was feeling pretty lazy about dealing with them.    they weren't in the way.   I wasn't sure what I was going to do with them.   I wasn't motivated to figure it out.

and just as you say, WK11, this got processed through my partner's BPD filter.   very very rapidly it ceased to be about some extra stuff and became about "you don't care about making a comfortable home",   "you don't care about what I want",   "you aren't serious about making this work".    

honestly this threw me,    I couldn't connect the dots from me being slow to figure out what to do with some extra furniture to this means the relationship is over.    looking back at it, this is what I think now.   I missed that she had a very narrow view of what was acceptable in a relationship.    she never felt comfortable in a relationship, she never really felt safe and secure, she would attempt to manufacture that comfort and security by creating what she felt was a perfect environment.   unfortunately communicating that perfect environment was not her strong suit.   one time I threw away a cardboard box the cat like to hide in.   it was an empty cardboard box.    clearly this meant I didn't consider her feelings.    clearly I was being selfish and inconsiderate.   I'm sure you can imagine how the conversation went.

every one of these little individual items was a sign to her,  a signal to her.  that I didn't care about her wants and needs.    I agree with what another long term member said here years ago.   these were not simple garden variety wants and needs.    these wants and needs protect her fragile sense of self.    these wants and needs are how she felt whole, how she protected her serious core wounds.  that cardboard box HAD to be in a certain place on the living room floor.   if I look at it from the perspective of other neuro divergent individuals I can almost see what is really going on.   Like the OCD character in the movie "as good as it gets" who felt stepping on the crack in the sidewalk meant the world was broken, having the cardboard box meant things were okay.

understanding the process that was driving her, really didn't help me flesh out how to deal with it.     looking back it should have been a combination of validation, boundaries and negotiation applied over time consistently.    but, honestly I found that hard to achieve as often as I needed to apply it.    

the validation really shouldn't have been "I can see you're upset by the disruption in the house right now."    which she heard as "oh you are having another emotional moment so I will placate you by pretending to understand".   the boundary shouldn't have been "I will get around to the extra furniture after the first of the month".   because that was a little passive aggressive if you get my meaning.   I was tired of being pushed on it.    Once she had an idea of what I needed to do, it had to be done immediately and I really couldn't stomach that well.  

there should have been more negotiation.    truthfully when we did negotiate it often left me drained, exhausted, with a sweat drenched shirt.    I thought I had decent communication skills.   but there were times when communicating with her wore me out.

which brings me to acceptance.    radical and deep acceptance.     being in a relationship meant that I had to have a constantly shifting amount of validation, boundaries, communication and acceptance.   each and every day.    it was a lot of energy.    I don't have a lot of energy.

I'm going to answer your question:
by saying Yes and No.    I wouldn't call it confusion.   pwBPD have harmfully intense painful emotions that swing rapidly and wildly from one extreme to the other.     If I lived with that I would be pretty focused on emotions and feelings myself.    pwBPD try to change how they feel by changing and controlling external things around them.    People.   Events.    Items.   I  believe that staying in a relationship with a pwBPD means being committed to fostering an environment with high levels of validation,  very good communication skills over a long period of time.     I like what Skip said about these tools not being a water bottle we spray at conflict.

my two cents
'ducks

I have to deal with this also.  I get accused of just playing dumb and acting like I don't know.  I either say "I'm just trying to put it where you want it" or I say "no I don't know where it goes.  If I did I would not have asked you". 

I got this from time to time in my former BPD relationship and even get it in my current relationship (I'm 16 years out of a BPD relationship). Back then (and now), I don't react to it other than to be light-hearted. "OK, its true I am too dumb to put away the vacuum cleaner, but I want to help and will do my very best to put in what I think is a good place. Let me check google, first."

I usually take things like this as a signal something is else wrong... do I want to probe that in a few hours or not (always a tough decision).

So are you saying that she feels a payment reduction is worth getting a "paid, but not full balance" on your credit report and you believe the opposite?

I am struggling so much with this question right now.  I saw yesterday that allowing her to blow off steam at me for an hour about how I did not validate her feelings calmed things down immensely.  Then again at night.  This is great as we're going away together tomorrow for the weekend. 

But it also feels like emotional abuse.  And it is with most definitions.  Where is the line between making life function with a BPD and taking too much and breaking myself down?

I liked baby ducks’ anecdote about throwing away the cardboard box the cat liked. Before we had kids we used to give our dog cardboard boxes to tear up and he would make a mess all over the place. One day when bpdw was at work I disposed of the torn cardboard so I could clean the floor. I actually did not realise how much trouble this would get me into.

It would mean I would technically be “in an arrangement” with my creditors. Apparently it affects your credit file poorly for the next six years, even once all debts are paid. (My wife is in several such arrangements already). It’s not necessary for me to take such a risk when I have savings I can use instead. Of course my wife’s name is on the mortgage but she does not contribute. So I saw this as my decision and didn’t ask for her opinion. We have not discussed my decision at all. But I seriously suspect this was why she was annoyed when I didn’t take the call from the bank. That is her issue to be annoyed about. I believe she hasn’t mentioned it as she knows I have a right to make my own choices as I have been asserting this right for sometime now. That’s why things like my drinking coffee are important. To remind her that I make my own decisions these days.

Sometimes the accusation of “wanting credit” turns into the humorously insane.   Tonight, Netflix wasn’t connecting on the tv.   I walked over to the cable modem to check if the internet was out due to storms.   As I looked at the modem, Netflix came on and was working.

I said, “I would LOVE to say that my walking toward the modem connected it, but I’m pretty positive that I had nothing to do with it.”

She responded, annoyed, “Of COURSE you would want to take credit for that!  You just want the recognition for fixing it.   That’s what narcissists do:  they take credit for everything”

There was literally no way I could explain to her that it’s obvious that me SEEING the cable modem 2 feet away from me wouldn’t fix it and that it’s ludicrous to conclude that I made anything happen.   To her, I was ALWAYS looking for credit and praise for everything and if I’m laughing off the CLEARLY ridiculous suggestion that I can fix the internet by focusing my eyesight on the modem in front of me that I am LYING and internally want recognition for my miracle fix….

To her, you can tell liars because they deny that they are lying and you can tell a narcissist because they deny being a narcissist.   That’s the acid test for liars and narcissists- if they deny it, it’s true.

Does she ever view herself in that way - that she kind of has a sixth sense in a way. That she knows when things are about to happen for example. Wondering if this in part is some kind of projection. I kind of relate to your story.

This might be an unusual conversation for the subject "Is there a way to validate every day disappointments?"  *)

I get the sense from reading the comments that there is a lot of defensiveness and a fear of yielding or surrendering ground in an ongoing battle with our partner. This thread reads more like a co-validation between the participants that validation is a risk not worth taking, futile..

"There is no way that I can figure out how to communicate and come to an agreement with her" " I cannot truthfully validate anything other than the fact that the feeling really does exist for her. " "Enforcing the boundary is clearly the best option"

And this applies to even the simpleness of things such as stowing vacuum cleaners, who drinks coffee first in the morning, throwing away cardboard boxes...

Stay with me - don't get mad - I'm really only here to help.

Your relationships sound like they are on a downward spiral and caught in a cycle of conflict where each party is justifying their position based on the unreasonableness of the other.

Just to orient our compasses, I put a survey in this thread to see where your relationship stands with respect to psychologist and researcher John Gottmans, four stages of relationship breakdown.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

How broken is your relationship? Take the survey and post a few words.

This might be a constructive discussion point.

Yeah it sounds like we are dealing with very similar mindsets.  I get that her issues are not actually about me.  It something inside or whatever, but I can only sit there and just take it for so long

I'm guessing I fell somewhere late into the third stage.  I have definitely lost all respect for her.  I lost the final shred when she physically attacked me and told me if she had a weapon she would kill me while we were on vacation together.  I already had very little for her at that point, but after that, it was completely gone.

I don't believe she actually has any values that she lives by.  To me, that is much different than just having differing values.  Perhaps what I am doing is considered defensive, I don't know.  However, I am at a point now where I don't explain myself to her unless she specifically asks for an explanation.  Even then I don't always do it.  I never do it anymore just as a response to an accusation.  If that is still considered being defensive, then yes I am defensive.  My intent though, is not to justify to her who I am or why I am doing something.  It is simply responding to a question.  I don't need justification from her so as far as I am concerned there is no need to defend anything. 

I certainly don't need her to validate my thoughts and feelings.  I only share them when asked to, and I only disagree with hers when I am asked if I agree.  The only other option I see is to simply sit there and not speak.  I can't see anything constructive in that.  The only thing that I expect is equity in principle.  I can accept her feelings without making it into a problem so therefore my feelings should not be made into a problem.  In my mind, it has nothing to do with giving ground or yielding.  It's about not being forced to agree with something that I don't agree with.  I don't care if she changes her mind to think like me or not.  All I ask is that if we disagree, then let's agree to disagree and move on.  Is that not what acceptance is?  Or is my way of thinking misguided?

who_knows11, what you describe sounds to me like stage 3 or maybe even 4. According to Gottman Institute , it’s impossible to love your lover while hidden behind a wall to guard your self from him or her. Few relationship survive these late stages without a significant commitment to reverse course.


Given everything that is in play, is this enough to sustain the marriage?

I did note that you don't plan to leave the marriage. And it seems like you feel too much contempt to be motivated to try something different to work on the relationship. That's a tough place to be.

One could argue, that even if you were only going to stay 3 more years, it would be better to try to improve things rather than to be in a cold war. That's a logical argument. These are emotional situations.

As Gottman points out, its very difficult to have a relationship if you can't resolve conflict - mostly by finding solutions, or middle ground or in some cases just agreeing to disagree and moving on.  

Over the years we have had many men in this space. You are not alone.

FWIW, the tools work if you invest yourself in them. That's a big step. I've used them in the past to make a difficult relationship peaceful and enjoyable. I use them in my current good relationship, to make it better.

The relationship breaking down is certainly a topic I am interested in. When I first joined bpd family a little over a year ago, my wife and I were at stage 3 and I wasn’t sure if we were heading for stage 4 or if we could sustain stage 3 forever. She had completely withdrawn from me physically and emotionally so I guess maybe she had moved to stage 4. It was a true “I hate you don’t leave me” situation. She didn’t tell me not to leave, she kept saying she wanted me to leave, but did nothing else to end the relationship. And I didn’t leave.

Now, we are, I tentatively claim, back to stage 1, but I wouldn’t describe it as a relationship that is breaking down. It’s a challenge at times, but I’m handling it well. Do pwbpd ever “agree to disagree”? My understanding and experience is that they do not. My relationship with my wife is astoundingly better than it has ever been and better than I ever dared hope it could be. So I do not see unresolved issues as a reason my relationship is at any stage of “breaking down”. I see it as a factor of having a successful relationship with a pwbpd. (That is, if unresolved issues includes my continuing to drink coffee, against my wife’s wishes, which was an example Skip used.)

With all due respect, my understanding, as mentioned in my post about not being reassuring, is that a certain level of caretaking will remain, if your relationship with a pwbpd is to be successful. For example, pwbpd makes a remark about how it’s not fair that I get coffee first in the morning because she doesn’t like instant coffee. I say, “mmm hmm” and proudly drink my coffee. She drops it because she knows she no longer can rule me in this way.

My greatest role models on here have been those who are currently living in successful bpd relationships. I’m sure some people on here are proud of my progress and for drinking the darn coffee, which is actually a powerful way for me to start each day with confidence.

As has been said before, a relationship with a pwbpd is a special needs relationship because they are emotionally disabled. Special allowances need to be made just as a disabled person in a wheelchair can’t walk through a door. Where I used to say, “we’ll agree to disagree” this only fuelled the fire and in place of this I now say nothing. I’m still trying to get the balance right and I’m on here for learning as well as now feeling that I have enough knowledge and successful experience to give some help to others. Things are so much better for me and my family. But if you have any further advice, please let me know.

Also, I am curious, was Gottman a bpd expert?

John Gottman is renowned for his work on marital stability and divorce prediction. He has conducted 40 years of research with thousands of couples and is considered one of the most influential therapists of the last 25 years.    Author or co-author of over 40 books and over 200 scholarly articles he is considered one of the premier subject matter experts in the field of marital stability.

I agree with the things you are saying.  I actually considered saying stage 4 but wasn't completely convinced that was where we are.  I definitely considered it a possibility.  I definitely understand the feeling of having a hard time loving when I have a wall up.  It's definitely where I'm at. 

Agreeing to disagree has always been enough to sustain the marriage, FOR ME.  I understand that it most likely wouldn't be for her, obviously.  It's the only thing I have ever asked for in the marriage.  Literally the only thing.  I never ask to get my way, and I've always catered to her wants and desires because just being me is enough for me.  Therein lies the contempt.  I don't believe that she is ok with me personally.  Perhaps that misguided by not realizing what it's actually about.  I get that because of the BPD things aren't usually about me.  It's actually about the fact that she isn't ok with herself personally.  It's just that within that process, I'm not allowed to be who I am.  It is a trigger for her. 

I am absolutely exhausted.  By my own admission, I am not me anymore.  Not because I believe anything she says or because I am becoming depressed or anything.  Simply because I am so tired I can't do anything anymore.  Mostly mentally exhausted.  Emotionally a little but I am not a person who is reliant on emotion so that is actually not a bad thing for me.  Less emotion to have to sort through.  Some physical exhaustion due to late night arguments after taking care of the kids all day in order to keep them from "triggering" her.  I'm just tired.  Too tired to want to do anything right now.  Therefore, I began working on me.  Mostly my communication skills and also learning not to walk on egg shells.  But that was a problem for her too because I'm working on me and not us. 

Working on me is how I'm trying to improve the situation.  I hope that isn't counter productive.

I know the relationship is difficult in this situation because we can't solve conflict.  I don't feel that we will ever be able to.  I feel, and have told her, that we can't talk things out and find a solution because that isn't what she is actually looking for.  I feel that she is actually looking for me to just agree with her, admit all fault, and start thinking and behaving like she does.

Exactly.  To my W, "validation" = agreeing and being as pissed off as she is about something.  Example = she is mad because I did not do something and I am a total inconsiderate jerk for not doing something.  Yet the "something" I may not have had enough information in order to be aware of, something beyond my control, or something a nonBPD would not even consider.  Last night W asked what I wanted for dinner.  I remarked we had a bunch of leftovers, and suggested some frozen foods we could eat if there weren't enough leftovers.  W remarked how she did not want the leftovers.  She wound up heating the food, then when I came into the kitchen she remarked how she also got the leftovers out in case I wanted them.  I heated up a plate of the leftovers, and then she went on a 10 minute rant about me eating the leftovers and finishing them without asking her if she wanted them.  As far as I am concerned, there is nothing for me to apologize for here or validate.  She started on an abusive rant before I even knew what was going on, so I wound up simply leaving the table and eating in the other room.  I much prefer that outcome than me wasting energy trying to fix something I did not break. 

Regarding the "cat toy" or the "bill paid a day later" - I have dealt with the exact same thing (right now she is annoyed and blaming me because a Amazon did not get the return I sent back)  I am to the point where "validating" such irrationality simply makes a problem worse in the long run by having her continue to come to me expecting validation. 

I think my W doesn't want someone to "validate" her emotions, I thinks she wants someone to actually experience the same emotions as her, because if others don't experience the same emotions that alone is invalidating. 

At the risk of annoying anyone by being repetitious, this is a lack of us understanding the tools of "being validating" and not "being invalidating".

These two tools are effective but they require skill (they are at least as hard as learning to ski or learning to golf) and commitment to learn the skill.  And just like a skier that puts on skis on for the first time and can't make them worm, it would be wrong to say skiing doesn't work.

So, yes, of course your partner wants you to agree with them on things they have strong feelings about. Most people who post in this thread (and other threads) want the people posting with them to agree with them. Most ______ (republicans, democrats, Christian's, atheist, etc) want others to agree with them. And to varying degrees, and get upset when other don't agree.

This is not what these tools are about. They are not going to solve this human dynamic.

A poorly timed or executed "validation" can make things worse... as have been pointed out in this thread. It's not really an antidote to someone seeking agreement on something you don't agree with.

Being validating or not being invalidating is more about the overall environment and day to day relationship. A sensitive person will do better in a validating environment.


OK, so lets look at this example. This is not something she feel strongly about. This is just a petty outburst on her part, we can all agree on that. We can also agree that it's also inconsequential on our part, it's not something we need to stand our ground on. The most important thing in situations like this is (1) to not reward it and (2) to not make it worse.  

To apologize after a blow up with "I understand and am sorry you feel that way" is invalidating... it implies that her defective feelings are the problem. It will also be seen as weak.

 |---> To physically exit the situation in a neutral way is certainly valid if the rant was 10 minutes long (that's a long time). She is now eating alone and that is "unrewarding" and it gives her space to see what she has done and return to baseline (especially if you leave in a neutral way).

 |---> Coming back to the issue a few hours later and saying, hey, next time I'll ask before finishing the leftovers. It would help me, if you see me putting something on my plate that you want, to please say something.

If we can pull off the first action without being invalidating - great first move.
The second action, is validating. It brings some closure - even if she says, "I shouldn't have to tell you."

Thanks, Skip.  This makes sense.  Yes, the rant was more than 10 minutes long.  No I was not able to leave in a neutral way.  It is impossible to leave in a neutral way (to her) when she is ranting.  But I was able to leave and go to the next room calmly without her having a violent meltdown.  I told her how I felt, and left.  She made comments, but no more than that.  I consider that as neutral as possible. 

As for step 2 - I see two choices here.  1) Do what you suggest, but that risks opening the topic again.  Many times this has gone bad on me - she is calm and has mostly forgotten about it, and the second I mention something again, it triggers the rant to resume.  2) If she is moved on to something else, forget about it. 

I have learned (out of fear) to take option 2 most of the time on things that are inconsequential. 

Agreed.

Sometimes one option fits a situation better than another.

It is amazing, as you say, that some of the out bursts are forgotten and best left alone, but its true.

Instead of starting a new thread, I'll ask advice here, I guess it falls somewhere between the subject of every day disappointments and more serious disappointments.

My wife complains often about my behavior at social events. Also when meeting our families, siblings aso.
Latest case study - The whole family visited a playground. I was not by my wife's side constantly, I was following my older son who was trying to be social with another boy who was there with his mother and her friend. I was curious what they were talking about and I guess I also wanted to interact with the other boys mother and her friend, not verbally but maybe through smiles and eye contact and such. Worth noting is that I felt no sexual attraction to these women, and I don't think my Wife saw them as a threat. But my wife later said she felt abandoned when I did this (maybe five minutes) but she wasn't too distressed. She talked to me (lectured?) calmly for a few hours in the course of two days on how a family/spouse should act in social situations and she says I seek approval and admiration from other people, especially women. Stating my opinion didn't work, she argued back at everything I said, even though I always told her I understood her point of view, and that I agreed partly to a lot of the things she said. She only saw me stating my opinion as not listening. This was her feelings so I shouldn't have an opinion.
- "It's so easy for men/women to be appreciated by women/men who have unresolved feelings towards their mothers/fathers..."
- "People should be the same person at home and at social events."
- "It's disrespectful of you to talk to other women privately when we are at social events" (I'm not sure I do that :D)
- "If you want to mingle, you should take me along with you"
- "You always abandon me"
- "You are hyperactive... I am not. We can learn from each other. You should learn to be more grounded and not run around and seek approval"
- "People are not impressed by attention seeking behavior. People are impressed by someone who is loyal to his wife."
- "You either cling to me like a kid or abandon me."

Basically she thinks it's immature to mingle, and she portrays me as a very desperate child who runs around seeking approval, belonging, admiration. I try telling her I enjoy socializing, it's exciting and fun. She rather think we should act like a unit, very professionally and polite and so on. She has some valid points. I didn't try to explain all this but I think I tried to use "I-statements", not deliberately:
- "I like being social and for me that is a need that differs from being at home"
- "It's exciting to be at social events"
- "I think it's fun to mingle"
- "I think it's fun to be at the same event as a partner and check back with each other occasionally"
and so on.

Later, she brought up the subject again after a few hours break. "I have a lot of new thoughts about how to behave in social situations..." I didn't say much, trying to not JADE. She told me that she didn't feel heard, and that's when I expressed my frustration and I was so irritated that I didn't really see any way for her to have any additional power to manipulate me with this subject. Interestingly, this didn't escalate things. I guess it felt good for her that she was talking calmly and I overheated. After that, I had some ideas how to behave at the next planned social event, this Friday, and she was happy about the discussion that followed.


My questions to you...
1. The more we talk, the more I see her point. Am I being manipulated, or are we coming to an understanding?
2. Where to draw the line between bettering myself and being who I am...?
3. If I would have stopped the conversation earlier, we wouldn't have reached an understanding. Thoughts?
4. She hasn't budged an inch in her opinion that I behave badly in public. Why? If she's right, why would she change her mind?


The next social event, this Friday, is at my sisters house. We have agreed that I should let her enter the house first, and that I won't leave her unattended as soon as we enter the house (can't remember if that is what usually do, most often I stay by her side constantly, I learned this long ago). We kind of agreed that if we get a good start that things will work better on Friday. I will absolutely have a hard time knowing what I can do on this social event. It's not that I'm afraid of criticism, but I want to avoid doing the opposite of what she's asking.

but I want to avoid doing the opposite of what she's asking.

Which means not being yourself at social situations- not doing what comes naturally to you and trying to be what she wants you to be ( according to what she's interpreting you are doing).

Two things (at least) are going on here: boundaries and projection.

First of all- she can't read your mind. When she decides what you are thinking and what your intentions are when you speak to other people, these are HER thoughts. What she says about you, is actually about her. You are the blank canvas for her feelings. Due to projection, if she's feeling something, it must be you, not her.  

If someone says something to you, or about you, that doesn't make it true. One boundary is to know "what is me, what is not me". If you have brown hair, and I insist you are blonde, would you defend or explain that? Or can you believe you have brown hair because, you know what is you, what isn't you. Also, if I were to lecture you on your blonde hair, would that make it true? Would it change your hair color?

If I called you a pink elephant, would you consider you are one?

The key to dealing with this is to know, better, what is you and what isn't you. She can say whatever she feels about you, but if you know what is true and what isn't true, you would feel more secure about that.

Personally, if I were just having a nice time in a social setting and not violating my own ethical boundaries ( I don't go off privately to flirt either but hanging around as families with the  kids and chatting with their parents isn't doing that) and someone accused me of not behaving properly (when I know that I was), I'd think that was ridiculous. The problem isn't your behavior- it's your wife's insecurities that are triggered in social settings when she sees you speaking to other women. But you know you did nothing wrong. Your part is that you need to believe that.

There is something your wife could be keying in on ( and it isn't something you are doing wrong, it's the result of the dynamics between you).

When you are with your wife, you may be walking on eggshells, watching what you say, and being guarded because of the nature of the relationship. When you are speaking to other people, ( women included )- you may be more acting like "yourself"- less self conscious, less guarded. This has nothing to do with whether or not you are attracted to them. You may not even be conscious of it. You are not doing anything wrong.

 "People should be the same person at home and at social events."

Her picking up on your behavior is also projection. PwBPD in general hold it together better in social situations and have more BPD behaviors in private with the relationships closer to them. I will bet your wife is not the "same person" in social situations as she is at home.

Most people act a bit differently in different situations. Whether or not they are being themselves is relative. A person with NPD or BPD may have a completely different and false persona in public. People without PD's don't have a fake persona- they are who they are, however, probably act more formal in public than at home. That's having appropriate behavior for the situation. Her accusation that you are not being yourself in social settings may say more about her than you.

I bet trying to discuss this and convince her of something is only gonna result in her convincing me I'm wrong. Fell into that trap :) It's interesting how she in this "lecturing mode" have the persistence to not go into a rage. It's also harder to assert boundaries when somebody just wants to discuss. She frames it as "communication", "cooperation" and "resolving issues". So I'm the uncooperative party, because I won't meet her half way if I won't discuss it.

I at least try telling her "I'll see what I can do" instead of "I'll do that"

.

Good reminders.


Exactly. She has noted something along that line, but of course not that it has something with her to do. But it is very shameful for her to see me being cheerful or easy-going around others, especially women. Is this cognitive dissonance? She thinks she is such a great wife (she has told me she would be a great first lady), yet my behavior points to her being a bad wife.


This is harder for me to grasp. I'm not sure she puts on a show in public. She can be moody/quiet at social events too (according to her this is because she gets sad and low when she feels disrespected and/or abandoned by me or someone else). She agrees that it's not only my fault, but that she would do better if I weren't present at all, compared to how it is now. She can be cheerful at home. She doesn't hit me at parties of course...

I wonder if this is just me seeing things in black/white. If I see any genuinely good quality in her that I lack, I feel that her criticism is warranted.

If I see any genuinely good quality in her that I lack, I feel that her criticism is warranted.

That doesn't make her an expert on everything. Most people have good qualities and most people have things they might be better at.

This is a boundary issue on both your parts. You are two different people, each with strong points, each with aspects that might be improved.

Projection involves a person attributing the parts of themselves they don't like on to someone else. A common saying is that, if something about someone else really irritates you, it's because it's something that also is about you.

The constant criticism is not acceptable. You two are not the same person. You get to be who you are, think what you want. Patricia Evans defines "defining you" as a form of verbal abuse.

Who would want to go out socially with someone who is constantly monitoring your behavior? I am concerned about your frame of reference about what is common behavior. It's very common to talk to other parents at a playground or play social event. She's making so much meaning out of this that isn't there. I've talked to dads on the playground, some I don't even know or may not see again, but it's kind of inevitable if the kids start to play with each other, to just chat for a bit and there is nothing wrong with that.

It might help to re-read the boundaries article:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries


Are we talking about "core values" here or "Inter-dependent values"? If its the latter then you should try to find something that works for the two of you... not worry about what is absolute right or wrong. That doesn't mean find a 50%/50% compromise - it means find a solution that works for both of you.

She want's you to attend as a couple. It's a reasonable ask.  You might prefer that the men all go in one room and the women in another. Also reasonable. The question is, for you, what is most important here? That you both enjoy going out together?

While she expresses herself poorly (i.e., saying you are seeking approval),   you might do best to help her relabel things and seek consensus on a solution.

You: Thanks for expressing your thoughts. So what you are saying is that you would like me to be more attentive to you when we go out. I can do that. I'm happy to do that.

There is nothing wrong with you wanting me to be more attentive, its a preference. Right. At the same time, there is really nothing wrong with me being social.  This is just one of those things we need to work out as a couple, to reach a balance that works for us. I'm glad to be more attentive. Let's remind each other at social events if we get a little out of balance.  

It can be helpful to move away from framing these soft things as right and wrong.

All the other stuff that was said - forget about it.

J tells me incessantly that I clearly DON’T care or recognize her feelings about such things because if I did, then I would stop “allowing” things like this to happen.   It seems to be her position that if I cared about her feelings, I would never ever EVER accidentally step on cat toys or prioritize tasks in the order she prefers 100% of the time.

This morning, I set my alarm and woke her up at 6:55am to be on time for a 7:45am appointment.   She screamed at me that she “had a plan on her own” and I ruined it by cheats her out of 5 or 10 minutes of sleep.   I responded that I was sorry I didn’t follow through with the plan she communicated to me (which she didn’t, of course).

She also berated me for not driving faster on the highway and attempting to pass 2 cars and a semi with 3/4 of a mile before the exit.   I responded that I am driving the car and that means I get to make ALL the decisions about operating it.  (She seemed to absorb that clear logical statement- as she suddenly went silent).  As for driving, she grew up with a mother that is an overly aggressive and angry driver who whips in and out of lanes and screams at drivers that don’t bend to her whims).   Knowing that tells me a lot about what J sees as “normal” behavior- although I suspect that she is able to somewhat see that her family’s behavior is toxic and abnormal.   

I’ve learned a bit about her father.   Her parents host housing with her sister, one of her brothers and one of her nephews.   Her mother did something in the garden- moved rocks from one area to another or something- so her father got upset and decided that the “proper” way to retaliate and punish such a deed was to prohibit the entire household from using air conditioning on a hot day.   This is the same man that finds it acceptable and clearly NOT excessive behavior to decide to either throw away or burn his wife’s or children’s belongings should they not put them away properly.   And, of course, the whole family enables such abusive and unreasonable behavior.

The family seems hell bent on believing that anyone and everyone in the extended family (ex-wives, ex-husbands, estranged grandchildren that don’t speak to the family anymore) ALL think they are better than the remaining “cult like” family unit- while I have realized that it’s simply because they removed themselves from a toxic and abusive narcissistic family- and any other “outsiders” simply don’t want to be associated with them.

I have begun to simply avoid trying to be emotionally involved with them.   If I’m invited to birthdays and holidays, I show up, eat my plate, be superficially social with them- but I have zero need or interest in being a part of them- as I already know that should my relationship with J end, I will go on the list of “he thought he was better than us” list