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My daughters, D13 and D15 have been alienated by my ex.  They do not participate in visitation nor engage with me to any degree.

I have started going to some of their extra curricular events.  Their position is now that they will drop participation in any event where I might be in the audience.

This includes my youngest 8th grade graduation and an upcoming state athletic competition of my oldest.

I believe it is very likely they will follow through with not attending.  Because they have the need to support moms narrative (who is using this to make it look like it is about 'me' and not what is in my childrens best interest, else I would stay away).

There is a lot more to the dynamic of course, have been on this board for a long time.  But I have this pending decision whether to go to events or just stay away to reduce trauma for them (knowing they do not really have freedom of choice, they have been psychologically manipulated into it).

Spare me the legal suggestions - there is an active DCF investigation due to two separate reports of concern of emotional abuse and neglect against the ex.  My son ended up moving in with me full time and no longer communicates with his mother.  But short of the child standing up to her for themselves, there is no practical outside help/support.  (they cannot 'force' counseling - which is what I was advocating for - DCF has 'offered' counseling and this is it.  But again they do not really have freedom to accept the offer of counseling, because mom is violently against any type of counseling)

Any opinions/thoughts?  It is not 'solvable', but I need to make decisions on my own behavior and whether to go to these events or continue to stay away such that my daughters can participate.

Some say it is imperative that a parent does continue to show up after divorce.  And that it is best for the kids to have both parents in their lives long term.

Others say in this case that is not a viable option, so I should stay away and just let them know I am still around and some day when they are older they might see things differently and decide to re-engage.

...

My heart goes out to you having to deal with the parent alienation of your two daughters by your ex. This is a very serious situation and something to get some qualified professional advice about while learning as much as you can about parent alienation and how to reverse it. There are many experts on this subject from many different fields who have articles on the internet, who have written books, and who can give you a consultation for a one time fee. Parent alienation is one of the worst forms of child abuse, one parent alienating the children from a parent the children formerly liked, as a means to have power and control, and the complete opposite of putting the needs of the children first.

Yes, and I have read and consulted extensively with some of the worlds experts even.  And have some dialog ongoing about it.

The general feedback from the legal system is that 'it is unfortunate, but happens.  Not really anything that can be done about it given the ages of the children'  (you can not 'make' a teenager do anything).

So - I still have to make decisions.  Choose between two equally terrible choices.

?

Talk about a no win situation. If you go, you become the reason they give up something important to them like attending graduation or a sport.

If you don't go, then BPD mother can tell them "your father didn't even care enough to see you graduate".

I am not a lawyer, so please take my comments into consideration. I think what to do would require legal advice in this situation.

My own personal opinion is that this sounds like the "King Solomon" decision in that, a loving parent gives up their parental role in order to spare the child being divided- that is, if attending these important events means the child will not be able to participate in them, then for their benefit,  stay away.

But- I would want it documented somewhere that this is the reason, so that it isn't questioned and that they have some way to access this information. One idea is to keep journals "for my daughters" about your feelings towards them- one for each of them. Write in them at these events. "My daughter, I so wish I could have attended your graduation but I wanted to respect your feelings and for you to enjoy it. Keep it- and don't send it to them, they will hand it over to their mother. Do not mention their mother. This is how you feel. Maybe one day there will be a chance to reconnect with them, let them see it then with you present.

What their mother is doing is horrible. Keeping them from a connection with their father. What a sick, twisted woman to do something like that. One day though, I believe they will see that side of her, and begin to question. I hope legal intervention is possible, but also know the children are not able to see the whole picture.

Does the school know there is nothing bad about you (at least from legal perspective) to prevent you from parenting?  Do the school staff and counselors know about your daughters' demands about you being in the audience?  (How would they know?)

notWendy made a good point that whichever you choose, go or not go, will be used against you.  If you decide to go, bring your son with you and stay in the background.

If your son is living with you then that is evidence you're not the ogre you've been cast as.

Dilemmas such as yours are rare even here.  I'm reminded of the father of quintuplets who was here several years ago.  His ex was a strict vegan and the kids had emotional and nutritional issues.  For years the kids were split but eventually as the kids got older he ended up with all 5 kids and as I recall a baby with his new marriage.  We had plans to meet when I visited his state but never managed do it.

Yeeter, it is a really tough situation you are in. I agree with the others to get legal advice and back it up with documentation in some form. Did your daughters text this or how did the communication happen.

For years I tried to mind less when my pwBPD split me. This is, after all, a tactic by your ex using the children as intermediaries. I used to wish that I took this time to myself, to do something I really enjoyed. Years of setting boundaries and doing the self-work around my healing has finally brought me to this point. She dysregulates (which is much rarer these days), I take off and spend some time on self-care. Plan something really special for yourself during those times you wish you could have been there. If your son is going, well and good, if not spoil you both rotten for those hours.  Your daughters will get to hear of it and wish they were there, they probably do already. When they are ready they will come. You will do much better with them  if you put in some self love now.

It's excruciating when the kids are at that age and yet you cannot explain to them what is going on and have it get through to them.

A few thoughts for navigating this :

-Do the kids have cell phones and do you have the #'s? If so, I wonder what would happen if you texted something like: "Hi D13, congrats on your 8th grade graduation! I love you and would love to be there to celebrate you. Let me know by Day/Date if you DON'T want me to be there, and I will totally respect that. If I don't hear back from you, it sounds like we're good to go, and I'll be there for you!"

I hate putting this stuff on the kids, but I really get where you're at, where there is absolutely no cooperation with the kids' mom, and the kids are getting to be at an age where they can see that they are choicemakers and at least theoretically can connect the dots about "I said this and then that happened". So instead of you being the decider, you give that choice back to them. If they don't want you there, they need to own that and communicate that -- this move would take them out of the "well everyone just knows I don't want you there so I don't have to actually say anything" zone where Mom gets the win-win. Instead, you return that choice to them -- then there is less of a way for Mom to say "Ugh, just like your dad, he doesn't care, he didn't even come", because at some level, D13 (&/or D15, just using 8th grade grad as an example) would have to think about "I did text Dad and told him not to". Plus it would put D13/D15 in a position of "having to" communicate with you, and it makes both options show that you care -- option 1 is you love her and want to go, but option 2 is you care enough about her to listen to her and respect her desire.

Again, I would not normally recommend putting that choice on a kid in every situation, but yours is uniquely difficult. I hate that our kids have been placed in these positions by disordered parents, but that is how reality is, and so we have to make really different and unfortunately "overmature" decisions about what we have the kids do. I would never have wanted any of our kids to be in these situations but now that they are we have to go with it and make it the "least worst" possible, and I think having D13 have to face that she is the one who told you "don't come" -- that she is a choicemaker -- may be a "least worst" way to go.

What's tricky is if Mom has access to the phones. So you may need to brainstorm about the most guaranteed way to get that message to the kids, because it does hinge on them seeing it and deciding for themselves what they want, and -- key part -- actively choosing to tell you that. So if not phones, there are probably other ways (school email, etc).

-Second thought, similar to ForeverDad -- have you been in touch with your kids' coaches? I wonder if you could have a conversation about "here's what I've been hearing from the kids, what have you been hearing, what are your thoughts, what are the kids required to do if they are on the team" type stuff. Getting at least a cordial/professional relationship going with the coaches I think will be a supportive and positive move for you, if you haven't already. Maybe pick their brains about "have you had this happen before, how did you handle it, how does the team handle it" -- that would both give you some problem-solving ideas and also lay some groundwork with them that there is a really weird dysfunctional thing going on. I don't know how to put words on it exactly, but for us the more "normal" people we knew where they "got a hint" about the insanity (I am starting to mean that literally) we were dealing with, the better. You don't have to "advertise" it but there are ways of talking about the situation that communicate a lot. If the kids are 13 & 15 I'm assuming they are sticking with the same coaches/teams for the next few years, at least your D15?

-Same as Notwendy, in parallel with ideas 1 & 2, if you are up for it emotionally, create a record of how you wanted to be involved, and keep it.

...

What disordered parents do not only to the kids but to us is traumatizing and toxic. I'm so sorry this has continued. It's exhausting and eroding. DH's kids are 14 & 16 now and I am having a really difficult time because "the end is in sight" but still so far away, and the insanity has continued and escalated (in certain ways), and because the kids must psychologically survive at Mom's, there is no way at all to explain to them that they are being exploited and manipulated to "perform their anger" at DH by Mom and Stepdad. I had to sit and watch yet another iteration of it go down last night. It's sick.

It is good to hear from you despite everything going on. I'm glad your son is with you.

I have full parental rights legally.  So school, medical, etc - technically a right to have a say.  In practical terms, I have to chase around to even learn what is happening.  And most people do not want the drama - want the parents to 'behave and work it out'  - or buy into her narrative (that she tells to anyone and everyone that will listen).

We had reunification counseling where it was recommended to continue and also to get them individual counseling.  Its not clear that is enforceable either (the court system really has no mechanism to force behavior)

DCF contacted the school once during an escalation to let them know I would be picking up the kids.  That is a different saga.  But means that most of the professionals have some insight into the situation.

And other parents for the most part figure it out quickly and have distanced themselves from her. 

Blah blah blah.  It is not 'solvable'. 

But choose I must...

Alienation means they have adopted moms distorted narrative (and her rewriting of the entire history of the relationship between me and my daughters).  So at least outwardly, they now despise me and want me out of their life.

So they have deliberately communicated to me that they do not want me at any of their events.  Ever.  And they have communicated to teachers that they will not attend graduation unless I give them specific intent to NOT be there.

It is pretty extreme (at even the possibility that I might show up).  So everyones radar goes up immediately and some have even started pressuring me already to just stay away to reduce the drama (trauma really).

But is that really what is in kids best interest?  Others say no - some have even experienced a parent showing up at their events as a child, and they hated it, but then later in life remembering that the parent always showed and they appreciated it even though they treated the parent like crap at the time.

Some say it is not the choice to give to the child.  Others say respect the childs wishes even though the child really doesnt understand whats going on or whats driving their own emotions/position.

The idea that 'someday they might see things differently' is just a hope.  At the same time, they may not.  Disappearing until they are into adulthood is not the healthiest answer.

I appreciate all the thoughts.

(oh, and mom reads everyones phone texts)

How do your daughters view your son?

I do think that both legal and therapeutic advice could be invaluable from the right experts. In my challenges with my disordered family members and their flying monkeys, I have had to dig deep, interview several professionals in different areas, fire some professionals and go searching again for someone who could help me, to get outcomes that were more in my favor and actually helpful. I have generally found there are professionals who can really help, make big differences in the end results, and it can take going through quite a few people and resources to find them. One of my siblings hired the best lawyer and legal firm around, yet I was able to eventually win that legal battle because of her narcissistic behaviors that destroyed her case, and I found a lawyer that knew how to deal with her and come up with some incredible creative solutions.
In my family, there are several generations of scapegoats and I am one of them. My parents and other family members did everything they could to make me dislike the scapegoated aunts and uncle, who were the people who actually loved me and were kind to me. I can imagine the kind of pressures your daughters are under, and they really need you to have much of a chance at being able to have healthy loving relationships with others. Whatever means you can use to be a part of their lives, even if it is limited like a father teacher conference which the girls would know about and could refuse to attend, speaks volumes about your unwillingness to abandon them and that you care about their wellbeing, which may not sink in now, and could years later. You could also show up at their events unannounced, and see if they leave, and keep coming nevertheless. The message the girls need to be hearing, is you do care about them, and are not willing to give up.

Couple more questions:

Has your kids' mom remarried / dated again?

What is the "unspoken consequence" of you going to one of their events? I get that explicitly it's that "if you go then I won't", but I sense there is something implicitly "threatened". Is it that "...I won't go, AND things will be worse for you than before"? Or "...I won't go, AND I'll blame you even more for it and for everything"? Basically, how would you articulate the implicit threat, beyond just "then I won't go"?

Also, is your kids' mom still pulling the "if I see you I'll die of an allergic reaction to you" move?

Yes, that is the general wisdom.  Then the question is - exactly 'how' to do that and what decisions/actions to take.

I havent really found anyone helpful.  My son had a couple therapists that were able to establish boundaries and enforce them with mom, but that was extreme circumstances that enabled it.

As you say though, it may take going through many to find one that is effective.  Back when working on the marriage with counselors, it was in the double digits before I found one that was helpful (and some can actually make things worse).  So that is good encouragement to keep looking.

I had two different very well respected lawyers.  Top tier.  They both had similar stories - said they had one other case in their careers that was as extreme, that they pushed through the court.  The one got nowhere because again you can not force behavior change.  The other one said the judge conceded that removing the kids from the environment to be with the functional parent 'might work', but would cause so much trauma/damage to them going through the process the judge felt a wash so just left it alone.

It is like being in the twilight zone, everyone says one thing ('best interest of the kids') but then nothing practical to help the kids.  Rings quite hollow.  So maybe I havent found the right help yet.  Or maybe I just back off from trying and give it a decade and see if someday they are interested in re-engaging.

Your having a very limited presence in your daughters' lives may not seem like much. Maybe it will only be once in awhile that an opportunity presents itself for you to be visible and your daughters to know you are there. I can't tell you how many complete strangers helped me when I was an abused child, with just a look on their faces showing they felt compassion for me and were sorry for how I was being treated, or a few minutes of kindness. A little bit of your presence can mean a lot so don't underestimate the long term benefits for your daughters. Also it can help that other people see you there showing an interest in your daughters and counteract the narratives that you are a terrible uncaring father.

No new romantic partners.  Too obsessed with destroying me to have any other life (2.5 years now).

Yes she still claims to have a life threatening reaction if she sees me - this is brought up as another reason I should not attend kid events but I did offer to work on a process with her so we could protect her health.  (She claims 'controlling and intimidating behavior' by my suggestion of showing up even.  

Really good q on the implicit portion.  I am not sure.  It may be nothing more than mom exercising power and control, and there really isnt an underlying threat.  Or it might be... 'see, your actions are detrimental to my well being since you kept me from a healthy activity.  You really are a terrible person'.  Hmm... good q.  (because even that comes back to mom wanting to demonstrate me doing bad things).

That is one approach that was suggested - try talking to the daughters like an adult on their underlying reasoning.  I have done that, and their reasons are not substantial (like I didnt go to every event when married so no need to go to any of them now) - or they are quite distorted/inaccurate.

There really isnt any reasonable justification for their decision.  So a direct conversation about it doesnt resolve anything.

This is true.  And has happened already.  There are many that just want to help the kids.

And every now and then a small thing/gesture I am able to provide (like dropping off a pastry for them in the mailbox).  If this escalates to where they become more angry at me, then these small moment opportunities may be less.

And none of this is a surprise.  But I was unable to prevent it.  From my introductory post in 2011:
______________________________________________________________
What are the top reasons you want this relationship to work?

I believe it will be better for my children with me directly involved in their day to day lives

I believe that as an ex, my wife would be insanely difficult to deal with, would brainwash my kids against me as a bad/evil person, and would make life difficult at every opportunity she had (which would be a lot, and would involve a lot of legal time).  So in effect, fear.

yeeter, have you tried explaining to your daughters that their mother is mentally ill and taking her side will only result in a poor mental health outcome for them?

Or that losing a parent is an Adverse Childhood Experience (ACE) and the research is clear on ACEs?

If so, how did it go down?

https://lifelessons.co/critical-thinking/kafkatrapping/

I like this question.  While it seems the front door is closed and booby trapped, could your son be a side window into the girls' lives and in subtle ways be an advocate for you as father?

I don't specifically recall the details of how he came to live with you.  He must be 17 now, the older brother.  I came to the boards back in 2006 and I recall some comments back then that a disordered parent could reject a child of an unfavored sex.  Just wondering how two girls have been so captured and yet not the boy...

Forever Dad- the boy may be the "scapegoat child". I read somewhere that the scapegoat child is also the truth teller- they see through the situation ( maybe not clearly ). The girls may be in "golden child" position and more enmeshed.

It's possible that their mother treats the girls differently than the boy.

I also agree that the "open door" may be through the brother, eventually. However, that's a lot of responsibility for a teen ager- I'd let it evolve as they mature rather than ask him to be the go between. It may also backfire on his relationship with his sisters if he has one if they feel that what they say to him gets back to you. ( as it does between them and their mother ).

I wish I could offer a helpful suggestion. I experienced this in reverse- BPD mother interfered with my relationship with my father and her family members. This was between adults at the time, but still- the parent- child bond is important at any age, and I think it's a terrible thing their mother is doing. Still, it seems she's covered all her bases by setting it up that if you attend, it will have negative consequences for the kids. ( and a no win situation ). Not attending doesn't mean you give up on them. It may even be upsetting to them if their mother makes a scene if you show up. My BPD mother has done some attention getting things at events like that.

My BPD mother also read emails to my father and listened in on his conversations. If you leave goodies for them- do they even get them? She may throw them away.

I assume you are still paying child support. Do they have plans for college? Are you obligated to pay for that? While I don't think money should be used for control or to "buy" their attention, I do think at age 18 they need to meet with you to discuss college expenses if they expect you to help. This may be an open door which begins with the older one.

He was splitting time between households, and trying to maintain a relationship with me.  But couldnt, and decided after a suicide attempt that the environment at moms was not healthy for him and he has cut off communications with her and now lives with me.  It took the help of the psych ward counselors for him to draw that line.  (it is not possible to maintain healthy boundaries with mom - for anyone really, but for sure not a child)

The girls are upset at him and no longer talk to him.  They are being trained to adopt moms interpretation of the world and also how to manage through relationships.  In this case, ending communications with their brother also.  There are other unhealthy behaviors they are being trained for, and are also very much moms emotional support system at this point.

He just wants 'away' from it all.  I am trying to give him a stable, calm environment and plenty of time to heal.  He is slowly getting better and yes may some day be useful support to his sisters but no time soon, he needs to focus on himself.

Enabling them to get out of the house and spend as much time with other healthy people is a key strategy.  Thus the importance of extra curriculars.  And a car once driving age.  And for sure, college.  Many people come from divorced homes and kids talk to each other and compare parent behaviors.

I have not.  I have always taken the high road and avoid criticizing mom.

They 'know' some aspects are not normal.  But do not understand the dynamics to it (it takes experienced professionals a fair bit of time to understand even).

yeeter, try studying attachment theory and how to activate the attachment system.

What alienation does is highly engage the attachment between the alienator and the child at the cost of the attachment between the target and the child. Taking the high road almost certainly results in your attachment getting destroyed since you're not engaging the attachment system. You're leaving your attached open to be attacked.

To explicitly engage your children's attachment system, you need to not engage in alienation yourself, but rather engage frankly about their mother's shortcomings and how that impacts their future. Start off by explaining what splitting is, how they're doing it to you, and how splitting destroys executive functioning. Explain how she is a pathological liar and cannot be trusted. Explain the ACE study and impact of losing a parent. Explain if they do this, they'll most likely do it their children. You need to attack her factually but with a lense on the implication to your children. This will engage their attachment system to you.

Also, it is worth reading:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Amy-Baker-2/publication/265450917_Beyond_the_High_Road_Responding_to_17_Parental_Alienation_Strategies_without_Compromising_Your_Morals_or_Harming_Your_Child/links/56a8b07e08ae0fd8b4000ead/Beyond-the-High-Road-Responding-to-17-Parental-Alienation-Strategies-without-Compromising-Your-Morals-or-Harming-Your-Child.pdf

www.turningpoints4families.com/uploads/2/2/5/4/22545256/amicus_brief_that_pa_is_child_abuse.docx

Thank you Big, very good material and quite relevant.  Especially since they are 'older' children and able to make some of their 'own' decisions - they need to educate themselves to the degree possible to make decisions consistent with the person they want to be.

This is to a large degree the path I am on - it will be piece by piece step by step, and may take time.  But they do need to develop their own healthy processing and perspective at some point.

In effect this is what my son did - but it was very costly and damaging to him.

I am still curious about this. I wonder if structuring the question as follows would help:

What is the worst thing that you think would happen (short term, medium term, and long term) if you went?

Here is what I am picturing:

Let's say you decide to go to the graduation and the athletic event. Let's say that the kids follow through and either don't ever go, or go and then leave when they see you.

Is that the worst thing that would happen?

I am good at catastrophizing  :( so here are my thoughts:

Short term: worst case is they don't go, Mom reinforces the delusion that "you MADE them not able to go", and they complain about how awful you are.

Medium term: they keep not going to events where there is even a hint you may be there. Mom tries to get a RO on you.

Long term: as adults they adhere to the delusion that you are the cause of all their choices and problems, and never see you again.

Is that close to the "worst case"? I feel like for me, what I was most afraid of was DH never seeing the kids again, and them being brainwashed into believing "it was what they wanted" and "he should just have been more sensitive and listened, but now he needs to be punished forever", with absolutely no possibility of them growing older and seeing nuance, just doubling down on the insanity.

What interests me as I write this out is this:

the idea that -- is it really the worst thing in the world for you to go, and the kids to angrily not go and believe you are the source of their problems? I mean -- is that worse than what is going on now?

It's weird that they almost want and are "engineering" scenarios that can be pointed to as "The Event" that "proves" who you are. Like... have there not been any yet? You know what I mean? There is a real ambivalence under the surface, like they can't quite believe at a core level what is going on, so they need certainty and almost want you to "do the bad thing" so they "know". Which indicates to me that they don't fully believe Mom's stuff, in some aspect of their being. It's just a really weird feeling, like if they were totally Team Mom, then ... it's like it wouldn't matter if you were there or not. The level of active hostility taking that much energy to maintain, says to me it is taking a LOT of work for them to maintain the psychic walls. IDK. It's not helpful in the moment necessarily or for problem solving, more just some "huh" observations.

There's a part of me that would also be curious about "pushing Mom to the limit" and while I don't know whether that would be strategic or wise in real life, I think it's important to play out here.

So you go to the events and the kids are angry and blame you irrationally for "not being able to do something important to them". Let's say that Mom gets activated and decides to pursue this legally. Let's say getting an RO against you so you can't be around the kids is what she decides. In a way, would that be the worst thing in the world for her to pursue? I mean, you're already not seeing the kids, so the worst case outcome is... the same for you? But the best case scenario isn't a zero probability -- if she wants to try some crazy legal stuff, then that will shine light on what is going on. She would have to vault some serious hurdles to make it happen and it would involve exposing her "evidence", right? There is a way in which I don't see a downside to "pushing Mom to escalate" (again, with qualifications).

Or, what if the worst case scenario is that after you go and the kids are angry and blaming, that she gets them in to see a counselor that is a total pushover and parrots Mom's views and is ineffective? Is that also worse than what is going on now?

I don't mean any of this lightly. I'm mostly just curious if there are ways to act in accordance with your values (of staying in the kids' lives) where interestingly enough the "worst case scenario" is not worse than what you are going through.

...

On a more practical level, couple of questions & thoughts:

-When your Ds have done this:


was it by text? or with Mom in earshot? was it at all in a 100% private setting where it was guaranteed only you and them?

And did they say/imply that it was you in person they did not want?

-Some members on these boards have had "success" (however you frame that) with... IDK how to describe it, but kind of a "tongue in cheek" approach, or a "light" approach, where you sort of balance "listening to what they have to say" with "proceeding with a natural interpretation" where you are "befuddled" that they could be angry about your "solution".

What I mean concretely is -- your value is to stay involved in your kids' lives. They have angrily told you "don't come to my graduation/event". So:

you don't go in person, but for the graduation PowerPoint, you make sure you have slides in there of pictures of you and D13 and a message of "so happy for you, I love you" etc. For the sports event you don't go in person, but you (again just brainstorming) hire one of those planes with the flag on the tail with a message of "Go D15, you can do it, I love you", or you make big posters and have the coach put them up at the finish line saying something similar.

Then, when you get the angry call/text of "I told you not to be there, I told you I didn't want you there", you are "befuddled": "I'm a little confused, I respect your input and even thought I love you and wanted to be there, I made sure not to attend... I'm confused, did you want me to be there in person?"

Similar "vibe" to "pushing Mom to her limit" where it's not that I'm advocating being provocative on purpose, it's more to "take them at their literal word" and then do your thing, and it's on them to be irrational about you respecting their desires.

A lot of this feels "tacit" or "vibes" so most of these ideas you can take less literally if you want. I think mostly I'm trying to get at ways where:

you can elucidate what you fear would be the worst case scenario, and

you can decide if that would be worse than now, and

you can find ways to act out your values while "respecting" the input from your kids, and if they don't like it it's on them.

...

Just a lot of brainstorming... curious about your thoughts.

Would just like to add:

I am definitely not saying that it is not a big deal to agonize over going to the events, given that part of your fear, and possible reality, is that it would traumatize your kids whom you love (even though you see that it would be an induced trauma versus a "normal" trauma, if that makes sense). I get that there is a real world difference between the reality that "you shouldn't be afraid of me, there's no reason for you to hate me, I love you, and your mom is doing this to you and is the actual source of your trauma" versus how your kids experience things as they are trapped in Mom's world. That even though it is normal for a dad to go and support his kids, and normal support is not traumatic, because of where they are "stuck", it could be. So I want to acknowledge that that's what you're dealing with, and I don't want my brainstorming session to sound flippant, like "well just go, what's the worst that could happen" (even though that's a sort of analytical perspective I'm trying out with you).

It is a real thing for parents and stepparents in family systems with disordered other parents/stepparents to routinely encounter situations where it seems like the choice is between having integrity/commitment to core values but "traumatizing the kids"/losing those relationships, or capitulating on values/integrity to try to save the relationship. It is really, really, really difficult when the kids are minors, and even more so (in a way) when they are mid to older teens. I feel for you and recognize that this is beyond difficult.

The concern for me about showing up is that they asked you not to. Of course, their mother likely put them up to that ( I know my BPD mother puts people up to saying things ) but still, showing up when they asked you not to may send a wrong message. This doesn't mean you give the impression you don't care- of course you do, but there could be other ways besides attending these events to do so. I hope so.

Unfortunately, it seems that their mother is the gatekeeper between your communicating with them. My BPD mother did this between me and my father.  Ultimately, my mother had control of the situation.

I am glad you were able to support your son in separating from his mother.

I think this is key as well: Enabling them to get out of the house and spend as much time with other healthy people is a key strategy.  Thus the importance of extra curriculars.  And a car once driving age.  And for sure, college.  Many people come from divorced homes and kids talk to each other and compare parent behaviors.

Experiencing other family situations did show the contrast. I wish I had better advice to offer you. This is hard.

What Notwendy suggests makes sense, too:


So as much as I'm open to brainstorming about "what's the worst that would happen if you go", at the same time I see where she's coming from.

In fact, it could tie in to the thought that you have about "treating/talking to them like adults" and that I had about "help them see that they are making choices".

It could "reset" some causality experiences for them. Part of BPD and its fantasy world is misattribution of causality. pwBPD are great at noticing if there is conflict/drama, but for whatever reason (can't, won't, don't, doesn't really matter here), cannot accurately place where/who it is coming from. Yes, there is yelling going on in this interaction, but even though it's them yelling, they say it's you. There is a missing ability to attribute causality correctly.

If for whatever reason (put up to it by Mom, brainwashed, genuine, whatever) the kids say "Don't come to my thing", and then you hear what they say and don't attend, there is a small way in which that acts out appropriate causality. This is what real adult life is like: I treat you like you mean the words you say.

So then the question goes back to -- if the kids are saying "if you attend I won't do it", then how do you stay involved in their lives in a way where you can live out your values (of being there for them) and yet also not be roped into "creating" a traumatic situation.

For the most part, I can not.  Which is exactly why the ex has created this dynamic.  To eliminate me from being involved in their lives in any way.  Other actions are to actively erase me from their memories as ever having any involvement. 

She is will for them to choose a form of self harm, simply to avoid the possibility that I might share in some meaningful memorable even of theirs. 

How to take 'the high road' without causing further damage and trauma, but at the same time having some meaningful impact that helps them over time.

What about being involved in parent teacher conferences? You can regularly update the professionals at their schools about what is going on. Your daughters are likely old enough to give permission for their own therapy, and parents would probably have no access to what is discussed in therapy because of how it would damage the client therapist relationship. Some school districts have free therapy for any child or teenager. A professional at the school can ask the girls if they are interested in therapy and let them know how to get it if they are ever interested. Many teenagers in dysfunctional families are able to undo a lot of the damage and break the intergenerational cycles of the dysfunction by being in therapy during their teenage years.

Some out-of-the-box thoughts...

I would send an exceptional graduation gift that will be too good to discard in the basement and a thoughtful card.

As for the sporting event, I would go discretely, see it, maybe catch some good photos, or even hire a photographer to get some great shots... and save them for a later time when you do get to connect with your son.

Yes.  I stay connected with teachers and doctors.  Including conferences etc. And send regular reach outs, small tokens, bdays, holidays, etc.

DCF offered therapy to them but can not 'make' them go.  Mom has always been against therapy of any kind.  During court ordered reunification they just put the counselor on mute/turned the video off until session was over.

They have not rejected meaningful gifts.  That is something.  Going discretely or in disguise is something others have suggested.  Other parents are more than happy to send me photos or videos.

I was really saying to get "cool" photo that you can give him some years I'm the future. telling him that you were there because it was important to you but stayed in the background.

In the future...

Gee Dad, I wish you could have seen me...
I did. And I got this photo...

 |iiii

Another perspective... If the court would have wanted you to exit the girls' lives, then it would have ordered so.  So court expects you to be a part of their lives.  Just trying to look at it from the other side, the legal side.

I recall one magistrate (peeved that her docket was bogged down) asked me, "... so if your son said he wasn't going to school, would you let him stay home?"  Although she was not a good magistrate, her valid point was: the parents make the decisions, not the children.

While your children can have their (probably influenced) perspectives, they're not older, or nearly adult, teens whom court may allow leeway to "vote with their feet" or set rules.

I recently heard from this member.  Most of his kids are doing well.  They still struggle with the trauma, but seem to have a handle on it.  He doesn't come here anymore because it's simply too hard for him to be reminded of his very dark days of the past.

Just a quick update:

I appreciate all the thoughts and advice suggested.  Again there are no 'solutions'.  But simply fyi on how the dynamics have changed over the last year, which is, they have not.

My son is recovering and is a completely new person.  He is doing exceedingly well at college, while commuting and living with me.  He limits the engagement with mom and has done a really good job establishing and maintaining his own boundaries.  The key to that is that he is 'able' to.  In general he does not answer her calls.  If she rants at him via text he just doesnt respond.  Requests for him to visit at a holiday he honors, but keeps it short and leaves.

He also more openly acknowledges the dysfunction and how it impacted him in the past.  Healthy perspective.

So that is a significant and positive outcome of which I am quite proud of.

The interactions with my daughters are relatively unchanged.  Limited to an occasional text response.  I do not press into or attend their events.  The oldest daughter is graduating HS this year and I hope we can begin an 'adult' relationship after she turns 18 and is in her own environment more. 

This summer both daughters were starting to engage a little more.  Until it was discovered that my youngest was a victim of sexual assault. The police were involved.  I was blamed for sharing contact information to the police of another girl/friend who was exposed.  The ex did not want this to be shared (for some not very good reasons).   Police involvement and I believe another DCF involvement angered my ex and again both daughters have went completely no contact again.  I am sure the portrayal that I am a narcissistic, only care about my own agenda was amplified over it.  The other girls father called and thanked me because there was a play date with them scheduled.  (this individual it turned out is on the sex offender registration list, and is the individual acting as a 'father figure' to my daughters).  The feedback I had gotten once in the past from my oldest was 'we do not need  a father, we just need a father figure' (obviously a position adopted from my ex).  This is a tough dynamic.

The positive outcome is that my youngest daughter did get counseling as a result.  For the first time ever.  And I was able to connect briefly with the counselor and she seems reasonable.  So I am hopeful that my youngest having a third party perspective to talk things through with will be useful over time.

Also my youngest is now in public school (last year was home schooled because my ex deemed the public system inadequate, in spite of being ranked one of the top HS in the nation).  Getting engaged with other peers and activities will be healthy for her.

I try to balance an occasional reach out via text.  Most of these are ignored, or directly rejected.  But I send one from time to time anyway.

The ex is perhaps more unregulated than ever.  The campaign of denigration continues 4 years later.  She still has an allergic reaction and calls the squad at the line of sight of me.  Interactions are quite limited to an email or two a month, always focused on her wanting money and quoting our divorce agreement to me (inaccurately).  I try to just let it roll off.

The lesson here is, that if you have children with someone who has a mental disorder you are tied to that person for the rest of your life.

Also my insight is that the 'professionals' (lawyers, counselors, teachers, etc) all believe they have dealt with difficult people.  But they have not.  It is a continuum and few have experienced a truly high functioning but disordered individual.  It takes a while to learn it, and by then considerable damage is done.  Nobody helped my son but himself (and two different psych ward counselors that stood up to mom on his behalf as part of release).  Everybody says 'best interest of the kids' but none of them have the understanding to where they actually mean that.  The entire system is enabling.

It is not 'solvable'.  I stayed for years because I felt my kids were better of with me in their lives on a daily basis.  I still believe that.  It was my own arrogance that got me into the relationship ('we are two smart capable people, we 'should' be able to make it work').  But we were not two capable people, and I refused to acknowledge and act on the signs that were there.  So some pretty severe consequences in the long run.

Peace to everyone here.  This site was my primary support for years and it was hugely valuable.

 :hug:

Two resources that you may want to read (if you haven't already done so), I've read both, there is some overlap.  The first one concentrates on the alienating issue, the 2nd one is a more general guide on divorce (useful if your ex is still taking you back to court for hearing, or you have less than 50/50 parenting time).

"Don't Alienate the Kids! Raising Resilient Children While Avoiding High Conflict Divorce"
By Bill Eddy · 2010

"Splitting - Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline Or Narcissistic Personality Disorder"  By Bill Eddy, Randi Kreger, William A. Eddy · 2021

These references are good ones - I have read them (and many others, as well as direct consultation with experts in the field).

From one of the reviews on Splitting:  "The basic summary of this book is these types can do whatever they want."

The court system is ill equipped to do anything about it.  These books do a good job of raising awareness on recognizing some of the dynamics, but unfortunately there just is not a lot that can be done about it.

Some of the best advice I received came from a post here that said:  "quit trying to solve the unsolvable"

I have to accept and move on.  It is part of the grieving process and a stage that has taken years to get to, although I will never really recover from the loss of two daughters.

It is a continual struggle to decide how much to continue 'reaching out' vs moving on and giving them time and space to decide on their own terms when/how to engage (if ever).  If I press too much it is an example of me just being selfish and not respecting their boundaries (then labeled a narcissist).  If I dont reach out it is a sign of me not caring.  If I do not send whatever requests for money that come then I am labeled a deadbeat.  Showing up at their extra curricular events causes significant drama since mom will be hauled off by the ER squad if she sees me line of sight (then I am accused of deliberately trying to kill her since I knowingly attended) - a lot of drama for a teenage to endure so they elect to not attend themselves, any event where I might attend (including my youngest 8th grade graduation - the principle even called and asked me to not attend due to the drama that would unfold!).  Blah blah blah.  It is remarkable the level of dysfunction.

Holidays, as you all know, are an even more difficult time of year to balance.  I post here from time to time just as a way of venting.  And I empathize with all of you going through similar dynamics.

 :heart: To all

yeeter,

It may seem unsolvable in the here and now; however, I would suggest shifting to a long term strategy (where a lot of the milestones in the present are lost).

Eventually your daughters when they have their own families, may change their mind and they will want to reconnect with you, especially if their future potential partners are curious - even though the damage has already been done right now.  Once they realize this in the distant future, and have their own issues, perhaps when they are in their late 30's/early 40's you may reconnect with them, perhaps sooner.  That doesn't fix it now, nor does it repair the damage that has been done, it is up to your daughters to realize they had the wool pulled over their eyes and blinded them to you by your wife.  You cannot solve it now; however, I would suggest reaching out to them on key dates (birthdays and holidays), to show that you are thinking and caring about them, even if they don't answer or give you a piece of your ex-wife's mind spoon-fed to them.  If they refuse interacting, use non-interactive forms of communication like greeting cards with positive statements.  If you suspect mom throwing them away, send a duplicate to yourself, and hand deliver in the distant future when your daughters become curious.

I am not suggesting you solve the currently unsolvable issue; but, rather focus, on the distant future, where things may eventually be different with your children.  Expend some energy now, and it has a better chance of allowing you to reconnect to them a bit down the road.  This is also covered in the book 'Splitting'.  Think of it as planting 'seeds', you only have a few, make sure they are put in key areas that have the highest chances of germinating when the drought ends some years into the future.

I would also suggest that you talk to a therapist about your feelings, make sure you do some self-care on this.  Also do other forms of self-care as you move on; however, do carve out a small amount of effort to plant the seeds for a possible future relationship with one or both daughters.

If your son still meets with your daughters, you can ask him to deliver the cards, and stay up on their activities.  Also I know the school my kids attend often lives-streams the events (a silver lining to the COVID-19 pandemic) and watch those instead.

I know it feels very daunting for you right now; however, I would suggest shifting to a long-term strategy for eventual reconnection when they are out of school and have their own families.

Take care with self-care.

SD

My brother in law went through a similar situation where his ex-wife was clearly in the wrong after the separation...yet she had the ear of the kids and turned them against him.  While you see this as a no-win situation with no answers, there clearly is a best answer in this case- you show up for your kids whenever you can.  You let them know that their dad loves them and misses them, no matter how much the ex rants or says otherwise.

In my brother in law's case, his ex monitored the kids phones.  She violated custody orders and did everything possible to keep the dad out of the kids life.  After years of court battles, he made the most critical mistake of his life...he said "there's nothing else I can do."  Then he gave up, and it has eaten away at him for the past 6+ years...because that's six years of a mom saying that their dad doesn't care, doesn't show up, etc.  And its almost too late now to do anything different about it.

Just keep fighting, however you can, and let the kids know that you do care and you're always there for them.  That's the only thing you can do and it's the only thing that matters.

Yes.  This is the approach.

The part where she is allergic to you goes beyond what most of us here had to contend with, and on top of that she weaponized her condition and alienated the girls in a way that has been heart breaking. I feel for you, yeeter. You've shared one of the worst cases of alienation that unfolded over the years on these boards. Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids only goes so far, and same with Divorce Poison. At some point it comes down to the girls learning on their own if their choices are working for them. Successful alienation is really a sign how severe the BPD abuse has been, and that is a lot to take in when you measure your experience against what experts recommend. Sometimes we simply have the worst cases when we can't find help for our specific version of hell.

My stepson is going the de-alienation process at 24 and it is a different kind of heartbreaking. Having been alienated from H for the better part of a decade, SS24 is at the end of his rope living with BPD mom and willing to turn to his dad for support, as tentative as it is. With some help from his sisters and me, he is re-connecting with H, but it's ... odd. He'll be affectionate with H in one moment and then tell me that he can't be alone with H, it's too dangerous. Yet he doesn't act like someone who is afraid. There's no emotion to it, I'm guessing because it's based on the narrative he was told, versus one he experienced.

It's heartening to hear that you found support here and at the same time, your situation went to a different level. My sense from what you've shared is that perhaps the best option is to disengage with a letter, something they can reference as a touchstone? What are your thoughts on that path. If you see a therapist or can find one you trust, would you consider writing a letter to the girls with some input? Simply stepping away may overlook important parts of your own grief and steps to heal.


This makes me think of conflicting things. One is that you lost that time with them that can never be recovered. The other is that your daughters may come around, though probably (at this point) less by what you do or don't do. Your wife has done quite a number on their perception of who the normal-range parent is. Keeping your heart open to the possibility of reconciliation while healing can only be considered complex.

 

What does your gut say to do here?

When SS24 was a minor, H was quite generous. We knew the affair partner was co-habitating with BPD mom in violation of the custody order but SS24 on principle gave money because he felt duty bound. It was the only way he could express anything resembling affection and H felt that was better than nothing. However, as SS24 comes out of the deep spell of alienation, H is better at offering reasonable suggestions when BPD asks for money. I would say H kind of earned the right to do that because he stayed involved through the years when he sent money, but that may also be specific to our situation. When BPD mom asks for money, H's approach is to help her problem solve other ways to get money, always offering something but not right away, and not the whole amount. This problem of finding reasonable solutions seems to drive BPD mom nuts, although that isn't H's intent. His main priority is to make sure the money goes to what it's being asked for, that it's the correct amount, etc.


 :hug:

It's important to vent with people who understand.

And share the good bits too, like your son's successes  :heart:

Don't come?  How short sighted that principal was.  If that was me I would have told you to come early, sit in an area walled off and get a nice seat out of sight of the posturing mother.

During divorce process, there was a lot of dialog with the judge about logistics of showing up in court with a partition so she wouldn't see me.  Etc.  Eventually the judge agreed to let her attend virtually but a pause was given to provide her time to put a yellow sticky over my face on her screen. 

One expert commented that after 30 years they have seen it all.  But this one is a new one for them

It is rarely good to be a corner case study...

Thanks LnL for the comments.

The success is indeed my son and we are lucky to still have him.  DCF was called in the first time because mom told him to kill himself and then left the house.   So he made that attempt

Then another time later due to the home dynamics. 

But in the end nobody could help.  The system can not manage mental illness.  Ultimately he had to do it for himself and the psych ward counselors were helpful in setting boundaries with mom for him.  He has limited contact and has flourished.  A completely new person and doing fantastic in college. So nice to see

And fundamentally I believe my daughters are 'ok' .  I don't really know for certain, but seem to be in a much better place than my son was.   My oldest leaves for college next year which will expose her to different environments. 

So they are OK. My son is doing well.  Those are basics I am grateful for. 

And I am recovering myself from the relationship (while experiencing new trauma of losing my daughters)  mixed, but becoming my own person again.   With the help of this board and some screening, I was able to find a good T several years ago who has been helpful.  It has been many years on this journey, and there are many more to go.