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So ... My mother wrote me. I suppose my brother had a hand in it, but maybe not, maybe it is just the family pull. Because it is my own mother, and because I am C-PTSD, and because she triggers my fog a lot... I'd like to use this board wisdom.

We talked a lot about genuine excuses, and I imagine this is it. But I am unsure how I feel about it all. Please, give me your opinions! Good or bad, and I will see how I feel reading all of it...I am hoping, by sharing your thoughts, that you will be able to help me feel my own truths, which is lost in fog and hope right now.

Here is the whole thing (translated, but close to the real thing, with the weird pauses and half sentences and all, she writes like she feels...):

RiverWolf, please read with your heart. I am scared writing all this that it will be misunderstood, but I need to try. Thank you for listening.

You have a right to be angry at me for the past. I am sorry about what happened to you. This is not what I wished for you but it is what happened and there is nothing I can do about it. It happened, and I am sorry.

You know, if you think I am still, today, the woman I was back then, then close the door on me, because I do not want to give you power over me. You can punish me, punish yourself, punish those you love , this is your decision. It is a wheel that turns, and you can decide to stop it. It is yours. Me, I chose to continue my journey, with or without you. I decided to feel good in my life today, without pain, without hurt. I would like you to be there, but this is your decision. My door is open.

I decided that I would stop being scared of other's reactions, and to take my responsibility for today.

 You have a right to do what your father did to you, to block me from social media and from your life, it is your choice. I have a right not to be submitted to anyone in life. I have a right to accept not to be scared of you anymore, of your reactions and of your punishments.

I accept my mistakes, my unfairness, my ungratefulness, my incomprehension, my hardness, my insensibility. I am tired of all those wars, that are only words and emotions from the past, that I do not wish to relive. I want to feel good in my self every day that I have left, with you there or not.

You have a right to punish me for helping you, and I have a right not to accept it.

 You have a right to hate me and I have a right to love you.

 You have a right to do what I did all my life or NO, to put the blame on everyone else, thinking you are punishing them, but it is me I punished all my life. Don't be like me, cut the intergenerational tie. I have faith in you.

Today, life is too short for me to be angry at you for anything, like I am not angry at my mother anymore for her unfairness, her treachery when I was a little girl, because she probably went through the same thing I lived. Her submission toward my father. I accepted the abandonment and the rejection I went through with my father and with your father. I did not want to reproduce the same schema, but it is what I did, because I was asleep, I wasn't listening to life enough. I hope you will break the turning wheel, because I could not.

I do not want to be scared of the reactions of others, which keeps me from living and put me in a submissive state, or I give everything I have and lose myself in my own life because I forget myself completely. I have a right to be human with my defects and qualities.

 You have a right to choose to talk with me.

You have a right to see how you feel in your heart when you think about me, anger, hatefulness, hurt (past), eh well, you can continue or stop, only you can decide. Surely there is a bit of love, I don't believe having only been cruelty in your life, surely there are some good moments too, I hope.

Me, I do not want to live all that. I simply want to feel good with myself. And you, what do you choose? Do your think our self love each other, and our egos kill us slowly, keeping us from each other by continuously bringing back our emotions from the past, when life should be in the present moment.

 Do you think I deserve what you are doing to me, do you think you deserve what you are doing to yourself, do you think I deserve what I am doing to myself, do you think you deserve what I am doing to you, WELL NO! Because I say no to all that. I do not deserve this and you neither, because whatever I inflict myself, you go through and vice versa. It hurts and it serves nothing. I choose to give myself time, to feel at peace toward you, if you'd like. Thank you for being there for me before and to stay with me, if you want to.

 I love you.

I decided to keep living simply. Whenever you are ready, have a good journey

Having to translate it really forced my nose into it and into my emotions...

Something in my throat, feeling both hopeful and disgusted. I still feel like I am painted like the abuser though... I understand she thinks I am punishing her for her past, and it is on me, I haven't really explained anything yet, was just trying to clean my inside mess... I gave her back her blame after she wrote me I kept hurting her, and mixed the past in all this, and now she comes back painting me as the one who is hurt and cannot let go and is blaming everyone while she takes full responsibility for herself, when all I have done is search for my peace through all this anger..
There is many mixed signals in this letter, knowing the background.

For the background: my father did block me on facebook many moons ago, and we talked about it, I understood why (I was an a**hole to some of his conspirators friends), he understood why (it hurt, but wanted to save our relationship because we don't see eyes to eyes on many political things), we both decided we didn't care much about Facebook and still love each other, and want to be there for each other.
 
All she wrote about my grandmother going though what my mother went through and worst are my words, that I gave my mother, to help her see more clearly because she was blaming my grandmother for a lot of things and ended up throwing her out of her house. Literally. Grandma went on vacation at my mother's sister and my mother told her she couldn't come back and sent all her things afterwards. Grandma didn't know when she lift initially... So not exactly a soft move.

They have a way to twist our heads in all directions, keeping us from seeing straight, don't they?

I don't recognize myself at all in this letter... I do not punish people. I understand she was hurt by me leaving. I do. But to say this is punishment because of my anger from the past is not understanding what happened, nor taking responsibility for the crisis she had and the rage she threw at me when I was at her house, and I don't feel like she wants to hear my side. From this letter, I get the sense she just wants me to come back and act like nothing happened? Without really talking about it? An invitation to a blank slate, with no invitation to talk about the present.

Like : you are punishing me and yourself, so let's stop and not talk about it, you mean punisher ! Look how much I love you, despite your anger and pain and punishment! We don't deserve this, especially me, I want to be happy, with or without you, but come back and act like nothing happen to prove you can stop the wheel of abuse ! ...
This is exaggerated, but this is how I feel about it right now.

Will sleep on it.

All insights are welcome.

 :hug:

Ain't it interesting how she mention submission and not wanting to lose her power so often?

It struck me.

I don't ask for power, and I don't think anyone would describe me as manipulative, because I truly don't, I am interested in others, their emotions, and my main drive is usually to help and support, not to boss around and manipulate...

This is a very good case of : it says a lot more about her than about me... Manipulation, fear of being powerless, submitted... It is a theme that comes back often on this board.

Remember the key to evaluating relationships is to look at the actions over time. Abusers use words to manipulate and control other people. There is so much to unpack in this letter from your mom. It feels like you are left confused and more unsettled rather than soothed in any way by this letter.

Yes. I am trying to detach myself from it. To see the illness. I know it's not about me. I am just deeply unsure about my next move. I was about to send her a letter to propose family therapy. Had my brother go through it, and he said it was a nice letter, that I stayed within myself, he didn't sense blame, just openness... And now I cannot send it because her letter changed things ! lol

So yeah ... Am trying to stay detached. I am not sure there is even a point in going through our last crisis anymore. It is quite clear, from what I have learned here and through raising my awareness of the family dynamics, that it wouldn't change anything.

I see more and more wisdom to Notwendy's words, how one has to stay true to their own ethic.

I just have to figure out my ethic now...

I realize moving forward with a BPD is easy since they always restart the slate whenever it goes messy... Even if the abuse doesn't stop.

Lots of thoughts going in my head. Will pause it. Enjoy my afternoon with my children who just woke from their nap. And will wait a night. Let's see what my dreams tell me.

Thank you Zachira for your fast reply. Yes, this letter did leave me more confused than soothed.

I understand though, that she has absolutely no idea who I am, what I have been doing and what happened, and will probably never understand, even if I'd be wiling to sit with her for hours to explain it... Also, I didn't really tell her either..  :(

You might want to consider having some of your family members come to some of your individual sessions with your therapist. This way the therapist represents your best interests and does not have to represent the best interests of all parties. It can be similar to the difference between hiring your own lawyer versus hiring a lawyer for the whole family with the disordered people doing everything to manipulate and control the processes as the bills just get bigger and bigger with nothing resolved.

The overall tone of the letter is, to me "off." Too much discussion of you having power over her, of letting go of the past.

I didn't see any genuine statement of "I did this to you..." with a sincere apology.

It seems this letter is all about her. What you did to her, she's going to live her best life no matter what you do. Her feelings are the topic.

"I'm sorry that this happened to you" "It's not what I wished" as if it just happened and she had nothing to do with it?

I also think this is probably the best she can do in terms of some sort of apology, because to say she's sorry for what she did would elicit shame on her part.

The letter feels "off" because, if her thinking is disordered, it would be that way.

This is a lot more than I have ever heard from my BPD mother. She has alluded to maybe not doing the best she could when I was a teen, but that's about as much as she can do.

On your part, it's up to you how to respond, if at all but I think it's important to not expect an empathetic apology from someone who can't do that. I also would not try to JADE back. Trying to correct her saying things like "you are punishing her" is just fuel to the drama. Don't pick up the drama bait. She sees/thinks like she does.

If you wish to be NC, then don't reply. If you want to reply, I think a brief "Hi Mom, thank you for the letter. I am glad you are taking care of yourself. I am doing fine too love _____". As you can see, I made it about her first and also didn't get into drama.

Notwendy ... You know what ? You made me realize something. I read the letter from my own perspective. But looking at it from hers, and considering the last word she heard from me was the letter I sent and shared here, on this very board... Her letter is incredibly selfish.

She doesn't even ask me how I am doing !

At this point, it's almost ridiculous... Now I see the distorsion. She doesn't care at all about me, she still thinks I am punishing her despite the nature of what I shared.

I am not even angry. You just lifted me from the fog. I see the illness. Now I have to decide, I guess, if it is workable or not, if I can and want to manage it or not, considering I have young children.

Much to think about.

I have just learned - when I speak to my mother- to focus on her, her feelings, etc. I don't share much about me, not sure she could even connect to someone else's feelings. Sometimes expressing hurt feelings to her results in her even mocking us, so it's not worth trying.

However, my children are grown. It's up to them if they want to be in contact with her or not. They understand what is going on with her. When they were little, my Dad was around and they enjoyed spending time with him. BPD mother held it together mostly when they were little. The situation became more difficult when they were adolescents and she began to enlist them as emotional caretakers and I had some boundaries but now, they can manage their own.

For you, you do need to consider your young children and what is best for them.

Hi Riv3rw0lf,
I'm really sorry you received this crazy making letter.  Thank you for coming here and for sharing it for comfort.  That is one thing to do with it, another thought I have is burn it.   *)

Like others have mentioned, I don't like the tone, I don't like that it's all about her, and I don't like that you're the master punisher (all projections, of course).

 :hug:
b

She sees you as herself.

Overall a bit Waifish ("rescue me"), but I also agree it's likely the closest you'll get to an apology. At least it's something.

The question is, do you want to engage with this at all?

Turkish, yes, she does. Which is why my having children and taking care of them was the first time she showed pride. I think, it meant for her she was also a good mother if that makes sense? It wasn't truly about me. I believe she sees me as an extension of herself. She thinks I have the same inner life she does. Compared to my brother, when she talks with me, it is always pure projections. There is no room for me in the relationship. Almost like everything I do, she assumes she did too, somehow... Even though she didn't.

This morning, I came to terms with the fact that, indeed, there is absolutely nothing I can share with her about myself. Because no matter what I say, positive of negative, the only things she hears are those that are true for her. She has no capacity to see things from my perspective and I cannot expect her to. This is who she is, the illness that she decided not to manage.

And so, I am thinking of answering something very simple, along the lines of what Notwendy suggested:

Hi, I got your letter, and I read it. I am relieved to see you are taking care of yourself and your needs. I wish, for you, only peace, always had, always will.  

I do not feel good calling her mom, nor telling her I love her
 But those words would be genuine. I do not wish to re-enter contact with her, and this morning, I see her letter as a way to enter no contact to very limited contact in a state of peace, instead of anger and blame.

I felt bad leaving things as they were. I wished for no contact, but I would have liked it to be done with peace, instead of the tone I had in my last letter.

It seems like I have an opportunity here to let her know I wish her well, without going into details about what I am going through, and maintaining limited contact.

It is quite clear to me now that having a bordeline mother is also having to grieve the opportunity to let her know what the hurtful things she does are. There is no room for that, and no point to it. I am better off processing all those myself, coming to terms with my truth, knowing she would never be able to validate me anyway. I truly have to parent myself.

I know I am not ready to see her, that is quite clear.

Her birthday is also fast approaching, so something to think about. Will I wish her good birthday or remain silent... I'd like to keep a door open to complete no contact, as I am still unsure what I feel deep within about all this...

All insights are welcome.

Your reply is in the same manner as how I communicate to my mother. When we speak, the topic seems to be how she deserves to take care of herself. I basically validate her feelings. I do not share mine. I keep our conversations about things I would speak to anyone about- maybe the news, the weather, give her updates on the kids that are not personal to them- things like " yes, they are at work today"- things like that.

I realized that my mother sees things through her projections. There's no point in trying to share the "who" that I am, because she can't see beyond that. It's not that I am hiding or manipulating the conversation, it's just that it doesn't work. She can't see it. Validation of her feelings is about all there is to say.

And she likes that. I have wondered why her FOO showers her with compliments all the time. It sounds so strange. I think we all like to be complimented, but it's so over the top, I'd be embarrassed if someone complimented me like they do. To me, it sounds patronizing. I think they have learned how to speak to her in a way that soothes her.

I also feel my mother perceives my raising children as her accomplishment. I have even heard her repeat something I shared with her to others as if she did it herself. For example if I had told her I drove carpool that day, I've heard her say " I remember when I drove the carpool" but I don't think she did. I remember other mothers taking me to activities and Dad taking me to school or riding the bus. I only recall a few times of riding in a car with my mother.

I understand she wants to be seen as a good mother. Who wouldn't be? Consider that if someone has a poor sense of self, they would rely on external validation. I think one reason you won't get a full apology is that to consider something that didn't validate their self image would be very difficult for someone who has trouble maintaining that sense of self.

Like you though, I can't say what isn't true to me, so I try to say what I can say that is validating. It also feels strange to me to call her  "Mom" but I do call her that out of respect when I speak to her. She would feel disrespected if I addressed her otherwise.
When not in her presence, I refer to her by her first name. That seems more emotionally accurate to me than "Mom".

The first week I spent in her house, and really everytime she was over for a visit, that's what I'd do too. I would witness myself doing that and wonder why, literally as it was happening.

I showered her in compliments, how amazing she is, with a big heart and often went to say things I absolutely do not feel nor truly believe, just to appease her and buy me time. It is a defense mechanism. Soothing her to keep her rage in check, somehow.

The last time, because I stayed so long, this strategy exhausted me, and the second I stopped the compliments is when everything started to derail. I had to tell her not to give a specific toy to my baby, because it was dangerous, and it was all downhill from there.

So I understand what you mean, and what they do. My brother does the same. He came for diner at her house while I was there and he said to his wife : "You see? My mother has everything we need, she is a fruitful tree of life, with so much love to give! " Because she had alcool in her house that my other brother had forgotten there. It sounded very fake, but my mother was loving it..

There is a child-like feel to it. Like how I tell my three years old "good job! This is very beautiful!" On every drawing she does and come to show me. And now I see that sometimes, she doesn't need to show it off, she internalized it and I can hear her say to herself that she likes her drawing. It's like my mother never internalized that for herself, and is still looking for the world to provide it to her.

In small bursts, it is doable. But it is hard to sustain in the long run. And for me, because I do it out of fear, I often say things I don't truly feel. Later on, I feel bad, like I betrayed myself. I value authenticity, and showering her with compliments make me feel bad about myself, because I am lying, not being true to my deep thoughts. It's not that I want to berate her either, I just don't like who I become when I am with her, the people pleaser, lying to the both of us about how amazing she is, how beautiful our relationship is.

I would need to ground myself, and stay within myself. It is one thing to validate her own feelings and I see value in that, and I think I could manage it. But it is another to tell her she is good and amazing and a good mother and a good grandmother, when I don't feel this way. It is a fine line to walk. One I am still wondering if I even can walk.

The child like compliments reminded me- my mother does this too!

I have heard her say "Your father was such a good boy today!" and I thought what, do you think he is a child - because I don't speak to adults this way.

She also said one day when I was doing things for her "I told my FOO what a good girl you were today"

These felt so icky.

But maybe they were actual compliments. Her FOO doesn't call her "good girl" but they also have superfluous compliments for what I think are ordinary tasks. Sure, I appreciate someone thanking me for cooking dinner, but if it's hamburgers, and they said it was amazing and marvelous and the best dinner ever,  I'd think that was strange.

Riverwolf, I agree with the others -- this letter seems to say 1) anything I did wrong was far in the past, not in the present, and 2) I really only care about my own feelings and well-being, you can take it or leave it.

I've noticed that my mother, too, will apologize for what she did many years ago, but refuse to acknowledge fault in the recent past or the present. It's all blamed on my "faulty" perception.

If this letter was from my own mom, it would be a prime opportunity for me to say, I'm done! and not feel bad about it.

I decided to write her back the answer I had thought of :

I am relieved to see you are taking care of yourself and do not feel anger. I wish for you the peace and happiness you want. Always had, always will.

This is most likely the last answer and email I will send her. I will not engage in further drama and I will not accept the projections for myself.

I need to think of my children, of being the best mother I can be for them, and being in contact with my mother is too costly and it keeps me from being the best mother I can be.

I am doing this for my children, for my husband, for my family, the family I have chosen and built for myself.  And above all, I am doing this for myself.

I am not ending contact out of spite and blame this time, but with peace in my heart.

Because this letter showed me nothing has changed, and nothing will change. And I cannot deal with her illness right now, not at this very moment in my life. Maybe later on, I will try and manage it, when she gets older and more frail. But right now, she is fine and I deserve my peace too.

Thank you, to all of you and to this board for all the wisdom and help. Truly, I could not have made it here today, feeling peaceful through the turmoil, without your help.

 :hug:

Against my better judgement, I decided to listen to my big brother. His point was : "you should still send her the letter you sent me, to help her connect the dots, state your truth and give her your pieces." I felt he thought I was a bit unfair by cutting contact without giving her "a final chance". So I rewrote the letter, and send her, with a hidden copy for my brother.

Take my word on it, he wrote me back that he thought my letter was fair, with no blame and that while it did not open the door to a relationship in the present, it did open the door to something in the future, with solutions to go forward. I validated her pain, and clearly stated my truth and that I would be open to familial therapy with her. I did not JADE and the main answer was : "From the letter you sent me, I don't feel there is a place for the real me in our relationship. I'd be open to meet with you and a professional to facilitate our communication, and help us see each other for who we are."

I did not expect empthy, and I did expect things to blow up, and I vowed I would not answer her again. And they did blow up, and part of me still almost wrote back to defend myself ! lol I did not.

But because I will not have, ever, a chance to answer, I decided to answer her here, to process.

Note that I am now truly no contact... I forwarded my mother's answer to my brother. I now feel I can step out of the relationship without feeling guilty about it.

The road to no contact was a bit bumpy, but I made it, feeling peaceful with this decision.

Note that my brother still defended her by saying he was seeing some validation and love in her letter. Do you agree with him? That I should turn a blind eye to the abuse because there is love? This is getting ridiculous.

Her letter (bold):

No it wasn't just about the toy. This was the break. I told you twice before that that I was not your punching bag.

This is likely a reference to an event during the lunch prior to her first crisis. My son was eating and she kept making him laugh, which worried me for the choking. I asked her to stop, and she took it personal, her face changed. And I felt guilty (PTSD creeping in), he was barely eating and there was not a lot of risk, so I told her, it's ok, I am a bit stressed out. And she answered me : yeah because I am not your punching bag !

In hindsight, my mistake there was to go back on my request and say I was sorry. I didn't scream, but yes, I was a bit snappy. I was stressed but I wasn't releasing this stress on her. We all get stressed, we are human. Sometimes my way of saying things is a bit snappy when I am stressed, but usually, people around me understand that it is not against them, and they give me a break while I calm myself down, and I do the same for others. She keeps saying how human she is and how I have to accept her with all her display of emotions, but she does not allow me the same space at all. This is abuse.

The first week was amazing and slowly, it started happening.

You were missing your husband and the stress from buying a house and selling the other infected our relationship, simply. I tried to do more, but it was never enough to satisfy this raging hole you felt. Like you daughter was saying : "did I break you hearth mommy?", your pain was tangible, she could feel it, this hurt you hide. And you discharged it on me, because it was easier. I am like a sponge. You hit me and I said nothing and I became less attentive, less receptive, more tired, and I didn't say it.

The first week was going well because I spent all me attention on her. I literally have text messages from me to my husband telling him how I don't like that I cannot give attention to my children, that she needs all of it. How I feel I have to constantly tell her how amazing she is and how there doesn't seem to be any place left for my children. My daughter started eating less and less. The comment about my broken hearth was her asking me if it broke my heart that she wasn't eating. I am not sure why she started saying that, but she was three and a half ? She is still figuring things out and language, how is that an argument to my mother's view? This is crazy-making.

Yes, I was stressed out, but it was a happy stress, I was coming back to my home province. She is quite literally flipping the table on me.

You isolated yourself in the basement and we didn't talk about it. I was scared of you and didn't stand up to you, like I was scared of your father, of his rigidity, of his dry reflexions, his rejection, his logic, how he is always right. I saw all this coming and did nothing to stop it. I never imaginer it would go this far.

How could we have talk? Literally every time I tried she would scream at me or give me the silent treatment and tell me she wouldn't listen! I have texts to my husband, again, as proof I tried and how anxious I was getting. And again, the most frequent accusation of all : I am like my father and we have no emotions. Seriously. Is that what I did wrong? Having my freaking father for father ? She is the one who made children with the man ffs.

After you came back from your father's house, you even told us all we did for you was not necessary, that you could have taken the plane and organize yourself. You rejected everything I did for you. This was your thank you for me helping you out, but I understood, you were so hurt, and I knew you were not seeing things clearly. For the TV too, it didn't work. Mom come down and repair it, ordering me around. This is how you treated me toward the end. Those are my facts.

Facts... Interesting choice of words. I remember saying :" Well, I could have taken the plane, but I am so very grateful because being here made it all much more easier. Thank you so much again for your help." ... I did. I know I said thank you. And what I do remember clearly and texted my husband is that something was wrong with her when I came back from my father. I think, us leaving for a week to look for a house, the separation from my children, it triggered her illness. And I remember coming back, feeling happy and relieved, I had a house, everything was well, and she was different, and it kept on getting worst and worst.

When I came back from my father, she started questioning my daughter about how much fun she had, I felt the competition, anger and jealousy on her part.

As for the TV, I did ask if she has changed something and how we could repair it and she started ignoring me, which I said : how nice it is to be ignored like this. Yes I was passive aggressive, but I was getting seriously exhausted from all the abuse, silent treatment and crisis. She started screaming upstairs about how she wasn't my slave. I left shortly after that .

Could I have handle the tv episode better? Yes. But clearly it was a matter of time before everything would explode again.


 You always refused my help and when you take it, you break it and throw it away. It has always been like that. I accept it today but do you see it?

Because everything she gives me come with strings attached. So yes, I became VERY independant, VERY quick when I realized that. As for the help in November : I PAID HER to make sure she couldn't hold it against me! Yes I did, and I don't regret it, because I freaking knew she would tell me things like that and guiltrip me !  Ho hi, hello angry child Riverworld. Processing this will feel good.

 Me, I was scared of you, of your reactions and this is my problem, my lack of self estim. You, so strong, decided, solid, with words that break me, a bit like your father. And me, too small for you, and I don't want to go through it again.

There we have it : the source of the competition. She is a young child and she cannot see me as her daughter. I sense jealousy, she is waify, so so very small. I am so very angry right now. My inner child is out of herself, this is the woman that raised me, and she resents my strength. She abandoned me, left me to fend for myself in the house of the pedophile she chose for her boyfriend and now she even found a way to use my strength against me? What the actual hell?

Concerning said pedophile, I listened to your brothers whom told me to wait. I am sorry for this, I hope you know it.

Never at fault, is she?

And do you believe that not giving me news from you, from your children, that this is not punishing me? Keeping the information because you know, deep within you, and you said it yourself before that when you'd have children that I could see them. I know you remember, it is the past but promises not kept, expectations you created in another time that you are not keeping, and I understood that you were punishing me, hurting me where it hurts the most unconsciously, that's what I believe. It's ok now, I am letting go. And I thank you for the time I could spend with them, which I will keep engraved in my heart. I send her so much love because when I read this again I cry.

First of all : before meeting my husband, I didn't even want children, so not sure when I said all that and made promises, plus, we weren't even close. Then, I moved to another province and literally just came back... So again, completely unsure what is happening there. Promises not kept. What the actual... They are MY children and being a grandmother is not a freaking right, it is a privilege ! First you have to stop abusing the mother of your grandchildren, simple rule that she doesn't seem to grasp.

I don't even feel sorry for her, when did I become so cruel? I feel so very dark right now... but it is ok, I know I need to keep processing.


I understood that our relationship is very similar to the one I had with your father, expectations, promises not kept, beautiful words, just wind (it hurts), I feel abandoned rejected. Today I see. I accept it and I do not want to play this morbid game.

Bait, bait, bait.

 I understand too that all the pain I've had and kept within with the separation, that you lived them too, my alcoolisme, you felt that I was rejecting you in your little girl's heart. But it's me I rejected, not you.

Seriously ? Again, about her? Only her? What the hell am I? A witness to her pain? A figurant? Just someone passing by that happened to be hit by her pain, which was the worst of all?

 And the fact that your father had another child with another woman during this time didn't help the situation. I understand that you wanted to be a part of his new family and that I was what made it impossible for you. I was the wheel that wouldn't turn right.

What is that even about? My father had my little sister when I was 10years old, long after the damages were done, she wasn't even drinking at that moment. I do remember her trying to have another child with my stepfather at that point though. I don't even know what she is talking about. Is she somehow trying to blame my father again?

You developped a great strength that permits you to succeed everything you developpedz despite the hurt and storms, you are a real strength of nature.

I legiltt think she is talking about herself at that point.
 
I know you didn't have it easy but what matters if that today, you are happy with your family.

Indeed.

Today, I am proud that I went through it, that I didn't stay an alcoholic even though I am still very emotive. I am less rational than you are and I find it hard to say what I think and to say no.

Ok, sure.

All my life, I ran away and hid, to see if someone would find me, but no one came. Thankfully I found myself.

She is calming herself down? Like putting all her rage into me somehow enabled her to paint herself white again.

I am proud of you, of the woman you became. Take care of yourself and of your family.

I love you xxx

At this point, it feels like the narcissistic end that Dr. Ramani talks about in her videos. Ending all the abuse with a nice touch to make you doubt and wanting for more.

I wish I could answer :

I am proud of the woman I became too. Gotta love dad for that. How he encouraged me to compose music, to draw, to process all my pain through arts. I would have been totally lost without him sending me tools along the way. He truly did his best, and always welcomed my anger, my blame, even when he wasn't the problem. I love my father and my children love their grandfather and his wife. An amazing, beautiful soul who only provide love, empathy. Never judging, a truly welcoming person. Love them both today, and I am grateful I have them to see me for who I really am. The o ly family I have left that is free of abuse.

That's just how cruel I feel right now. But I will just not answer and delete her email. So done with all of it.

And I know, I go into A LOT of details with this post. But I really needed to write all of this down somewhere  and be understood by another human being... Especially with my brother making excuses for her again. He is neutral, doesn't blame me, but still doesn't see the abuse? So weird! He just focus on the last part of the letter, and not on all the rest. I guess this is what makes the narcissists and borderlines so very strong. The perfect balance of rage, blame, self pitty and "validation".

This response made my skin crawl when reading it. Ick.

It's from victim perspective ( she's the victim ). I would have expected this kind of response from my mother if I got into something emotional with her. I eventually decided it was completely ineffective to do this and so I don't even try.

Now that you have given it a try- and see the results, I hope you can feel that you can make the best decision for yourself from this point on.

Your mother seems to hold on to an endless list of grudges and things she blames you for, which all sound like you did not give her the narcissistic supply she was craving at the time. My heart hurts reading all the terrible things your mother said to you. It seems that going no contact with your mother and setting the boundary with people who are in contact with your mother that they are not to talk to you about her (ideally not give her any information about you which is a difficult boundary to enforce). What do you think will help you to feel less impacted by all the cruel hurtful things your mother said?
Many years ago, I asked my mother if I was an unplanned pregancy. I was curious as to why she treated me so badly and suspected I was an unwanted child being so close in age to my sister who was the golden child and the oldest child. She told me: "Do you think I wanted to have two babies so close togother? My doctor told me I had an inverted uterus, and it would take a long time to get pregnant, and I got pregnant on the first try." Mom seemed angry as she told me this, and there was no mention of being glad to have me as her daughter.To me, this story illustrates how a big part of having BPD is never forgetting anything that does not work out the way she/he wants it to, and a big part of the emotional dysregulations are the endless list of grudges and disappointments from imagined abandonments. Since you are a primary target of your mother's imagined abandonments, it does not seem that there is any way you can ever have any kind of relationship with her whatsoever. What do you think?
Hope you are feeling better soon. I can imagine how hurt and angry you must be feeling and how much you want to move on to feeling better.

I reread it, and I don't know if it's because I translated it, or if it's because it's been a few hours, but I don't see it the same way, not as bad, the letter.

Is it bad?

I think what really triggered me is because it feels so distorted.

No mention of the silence treatment, of her judging my body, of how she told me out of anger, that I couldn't be trusted, that I didn't understand them, that I didn't have any emotions.

Her eyes, judging my every moves with my children, not letting. Me any space to be just with them when she was there.

Her constant needs for reassurance and how, when she doesn't get her way, I become the worst person in the universe. Like you said Zachira, it feels like I only live to provide her with narcissistic supply, and when I fail to meet her needs, she flips on me.

The letter in itself is not that bad, is it?

It triggered my inner child though, I can see that now. Her, constantly projecting my father on me. Her, not taking responsibility for being a mother.

I understand what she says, how she was rejecting herself through her alcoolism, and again, I find myself having to be the bigger person, and I think this is what makes it so hard for us. Because we were supposed to be the children. And we didn't get to be that.

If she was anyone else, maybe I'd have been able to keep my cool with this letter. But I felt so unseen again.

Does that make sense?

Am I the one with the anger problem somehow, in a very twisted way? I did have a deep hurt that I was hiding, what she cannot accept is that this pain was my c-PTSD from her emotional abuse, and had nothing to do with my husband and stress of needing to buy a house. She just cannot accept how bad she hurt me, and just how much our relationship is strained, mainly because of her, because I never could attach myself to her safely, and part of me still feel so unease around her. And the only reason this doesn't change is because she keeps abusing me. I could move forward if it wasn't of her current actions. Do I really need her to understand this? I know she never will. Does she really not see any of this? Does she really not understand any of this?  I wrote it down, black on white, in the letter I sent, about the c-PTSD... And she just invalidated it entirely, saying it was just me missing me husband... How can she just do that? Like I said absolutely nothing ?

Riv3rwolf, so sorry you're going through this. I have to admit that when I read the title of your post I felt a bit of hope for you...since she reached out. The last I checked the board it seemed you were warming up to the idea of reuniting and also hurt that she had not tried to reach out to you. I hoped that maybe she had truly apologized...which now seems crazy because I'm not sure that any BPD can truly apologize. It seems that your mother is willing to take responsibility for certain things..which I suppose is something (more than my mother was willing to do...she denied EVERYTHING and blamed EVERYTHING on me) However, from an outside perspective, I agree with Notwendy, she is painting herself to be the victim. In the email my Mom sent to me she literally used some of the same exact phrases like "I am not your punching bag," "I tried..but it's never enough!,"  "I was scared of you" Interesting...right? Ask little Riv3rwolf if this is how she describes her mother? Because the things that my Mom wrote about ME is how little me describes my abusive mother. Of course I can only speak for myself here...but after I gave it some time I could see that about 90% of what she said to me was purely projections. She swapped roles and tried to convince me that I had been abusing HER...and yet little me(who was an innocent child) clearly remembers the abuse from as young as I have memories. I have been afraid of her my whole life, even when I was an adult, hence the "walking on eggshells" Something that struck me was that she brought up your young daughter asking if she broke your heart. Again...I can only speak from MY experience...but when my son was about that age I caught her saying things
like that to my son...to get him to say things to me that would hurt me. I caught on because it was only after he talked to her...and things that didn't seem normal for a 3 year old to say. The day that I caught her and confronted her and told her it was inappropriate...she flipped out and went to the Emergency Room...my Dad called me to tell me she thought she was having a "heart attack" which was a lie and her way to switch into "hurt little victim" who was being abused by ME because I confronted HER abuse! She was never alone with him again. She simply can't help herself. Of course I am not implying that this is definitely what happened with your Mom but I immediately remembered my own experience and wondered when I read it if she was telling your daughter that YOU were breaking Grandma's heart, or something of that nature and your daughter repeated it. I remember you said that she had said inappropriate things to your brothers kids. It's something my mom would do for leverage so she could bring it up and say "see...even you're kids are upset by you!"or to drive a little wedge...she would say things to him like "Your Mommy is so mean" Of course that's just my own take..and it's very much based on my own experience with my own bpd mom.

I think the thing that struck me the most, however, is HOW MUCH she brought up your Dad! It was VERY telling...in my opinion...that she is still extremely resentful...of him, of his life, of your relationship, etc. I assume that her resentment of him is one of the main poisons in your relationship...and I assume that she will NEVER admit that...and so she will allow you to take the blame. Again...this is only my assumption from the letter and my own experiences with MY Mom...so feel free to disregard any of it if you feel it's off base. My parents are still married...but my Mom HATES my Dad and always has...she openly says things like "Your Dad ruined my life" right in front of him. She could NOT handle me having ANY relationship with him. She also HATED his Mother(my Grandma who I wasn't allowed to see) She would go on and on about how evil she was, how ugly and disgusting she was, etc and then when she got mad at me she would call me by that Grandma's name. She would say things like "Ewww you look just like Grandma K right now" or if she was mad at my Dad then I would get compared to him..."You act like your father", "You treat me the way your father does", etc.

My Mom will do anything to paint herself as the victim and she can NOT have people in her life that will not allow her to be the victim. For me...it was too exhausting to keep sacrificing myself and my TRUTH and little me's TRUTH. In the email that I received from my Mom(the last interaction) she FULLY took down her mask. She blamed me for all of the family problems...took zero accountability for anything...and told me that I am just messed up because I was raped as a teenager. Interesting that she can blame me for ALL of the family problems and yet she had personality disorders, eating disorders, was a teenage mom to a raging alcoholic, was in and out of Juvenile Hall, dropout, etc BEFORE I was born. My Dad was a raging alcoholic BEFORE I was born. BOTH of their Moms were alcoholics BEFORE I was born. Both sides of my family was riddled with addiction, suicides, and abuse...BEFORE I was born. It's called Generational Trauma and I'm the Scapegoat. I'm the PROBLEM because I see the truth and I speak the truth. It seems to me that you're Mom is claiming to be the victim of you speaking the truth about extreme abuse(that SHE didn't protect you from) It seems that her "punishment" is you needing and taking time to process that extreme abuse and heal yourself.

To answer your question about wether or not the letter was that bad...only you can truly answer that...because only you really know her. I don't believe you should feel guilt for speaking truth and healing. Your Mom did take some accountability...so that is a step...I suppose...and maybe the best she can do...and only you can decide if that is enough and if the relationship, and emotional turmoil that comes with it, is worth unraveling and healing. My advice is to continue healing yourself. Honestly, I would take her telling you that she is going to live her best life with or without you as a gift...you are NOT responsible for her or anyone else but yourself and your own children. Processing your abuse and taking time to heal is not just for you but for your kids too. I found it interesting that my request for time to heal and focus on myself and my own kids and my own husband was met with "Fine...Goodbye Forever" and for me...I'm personally coming to terms with forever working for me. But you don't have to close and seal the door shut...you can let her know that you're open to reuniting later...you're entitled to that. Whatever you choose... relationship or not...choose yourself first.

Sending you lots of support  :hug:

Im1109,

Thank you for your words, uncovered vulnerable Riverworld and I had a cry.

I re-read her letter in french, and I got triggered again. Most of the anger got lost in translation, the choice of her words were very hard, which like you pointed out, is interesting because she accused me of being the one with hard words, but truthfully I don't feel like this.

Yes, she does describe me like little me would describe her mother. And you raised a really good point that made me truly feel better... I remember the abuse from when I was an innocent child, and I can see, from how my own children are, that I am not the abuser. My daughter is no scared of me, my son comes to me with such joy, they are securely attached. I am not perfect, and yes, I snap sometimes, but I don"t abuse people and I can say sorry with no hidden blame.

Reading her letter, again and again, the end feels more like the glass of water after throwing me in the desert for days. I mean... She discharges all her rage (because the french letter has a lot of rage in it), on me, blames me even for my strength, and then, as she blames me, and adopts the victim perspective, she starts feeling better about herself. So she assumed I now feel bad and jumps back into her prefered role of rescuer. She is a victim-rescuer, and I imagine she internalized the whole triangle within herself.  Which is why she also blames me for not needing her, for my independance. She cannot rescue me, and because of that, she feels small and she resents me for it... That's my take on it right now anyway...

I sent her another final letter... For some reason I cannot keep myself from doing it. And I defending myself (guilty of jading), and called her out on her projections of all the anger she holds against my dad on me. I invited her to have someone else read her letters before sending them to facilitate the communication, reiterated that I would not ever let her intimidate me again with her rage and that I am not what she describes. That to have the privilege to be a grandmother, one first have to treat the mother with calm and respect. And that I am done answering her baits. That if she wants to go to family therapy, we might later (she will never do that, that would break her mask, having someone neutral in the room).

Now the real difficulty for me will be to delete her emails as they come in and not read it...

My husband told me everytime I read her letters, she wins, because my mood changes for the day, sometimes the week. He told me how well I was looking those past few weeks, and how all of that seemed to go to hell after she sent me her first email. And he is right. This is the main issus... So much energy I spend on recuperating, trying to understand, rethinking if what she describes truly is what happened, maybe part of it... But like you said... They use 10% truth to reel us in, and then 90% projection to make us doubt ourselves and feel guilty, ashamed and confused.

Writing all this, I truly wonder why I keep trying and why I'd want her in my children's life. I don't know if she said the heart thing to my daughter, or if I said that out of FOG. Truly, I wasn't myself when I was there, and I don't like the mother I am when I am around my own mother. I lose myself. And I can see myself losing myself from within, and I start feeling so confuse. And I guess, writing this I can see how no contact is probably the best course of action for me, to be the best mother I can be and have a bit of peace.

My brother reeled me in this time... And made me doubt about the abuse. I don't think I should discuss this whole thing with him anymore, that was probably a lack of judgment on my end. I can see now that he has his own dynamic with her and within the family, and he doesn't mean to hurt me, or to reel me in, it just happens. So a boundary of not discussing her with him will be needed...

I will sleep. I felt better reading your answer Im1109. A lot of it resonated, made the angry child be heard, made her move away to uncover her more vulnerable counterpart. And she is the one I need to heal.

I had hope. Hope is what crushes me, reeling me in everytime. And you are right... It is a gift : she will live her best life, with or without me. And the more I try to make her see me, the more pain I seem to cause her anyway. I am one of her main triggers, because I was always closer with my father, because I loved him and because she never could triangulate me against him. So maybe, in the end, it truly is better for us both to go our separate ways.

Am I the one with the anger problem somehow, in a very twisted way?

This idea stood out to me because one of my mother's family members made the assumption that I was the one with the "anger problem" and this changed my relationship with that person. They judged me solely on what my mother had told them about me, not ever asking to hear my perspective. While I am still cordial with them, I don't know what they truly think about me.

So what if you are angry? I think you have reason to be angry. Anger is a feeling. An "anger problem" is if someone acts on their anger in a destructive way- to themselves, to property, to someone else.

I've felt anger, but have not ever acted on it in the way my mother has. I think this is why that assumption felt so unfair.

Anger, itself, isn't a bad thing but something to be careful about because, you don't want to dwell on it, hold on to a resentment or act out inappropriately with it. But also we don't have to ignore it or judge ourselves negatively for a feeling.

My husband told me every time I read her letters, she wins, because my mood changes for the day, sometimes the week.

A 12 step slogan for this is "letting someone live in your thoughts rent free". These letters and your difficulty resisting writing back are part of the dynamics between the two of you. Ironically, while this kind of drama is something we are trying to avoid, I have realized this is also a part of what has connected us. Now that there's less drama between me and my mother ( as I won't participate ) there's also a lonely feeling of disconnect. This is not a natural feeling. Humans are emotionally wired to connect with their mothers. We have to be. As infants we depend on this for our survival. If we have   a disordered parent, we may connect to them in the way that we can.

I still sometimes feel an urge to call my mother up and try to connect with her emotionally. I just have learned it's not effective and the result would be that I'd feel upset about it.

Notwendy,

Thank you for bringing me back from part of the fog again. I woke up this morning with so much self-hatred. And I find it hard to get out of it today. I was doing well, and now this feels like a huge step back. It is part of the process, but part of me hates that I answered her, and it helps to be reminded it is normal. I attached to her the only way I could. Do you have a good book of the 12steps that could help me deal with this addiction? Because defending myself to her does feel like an addiction, somehow. I cannot keep myself from doing it, from re-reading emails. It cannot just be a lack of self discipline, I have plenty of that.

And you are right about anger. I made peace with anger, or so I thought, but somehow her email made me doubt myself, yet again. I know I didn't discharge my emotions on her despite what she says. The thing is ANY display of emotions, as mellow as they are, and even by someone "in control", someone who is talking assertively, or who is clearly sad : she takes it personnal and feels like a punching back. A lot of times in my life, I've been called "self righteous" because I have a very calm demeanor, I am "in control of my emotions", I have a tornado within, but I stay silent, often barely moving, and people would blame me for looking "so perfect". I learned to keep my emotions in check from a very young age. Any display of it resulted in an angry woman adult lashing out at me. And her, telling I use her as a punching bag, again, because I have emotions, brought me right back there. And now, this calm demeanor, this strength and control I developped are used against me somehow too. It is so messed up.

I have no idea how to not engage emotionally with her and I read your posts often, and I find so much wisdom, inner strength, and control in them, a healthy emotional detachement. And I wish I could go there too, in this state of healthy peace while staying in contact, but I have no idea how.

I think I am the golden child that let her down? Is that possible? Her only daughter with whom she wished for so much proximity against my father, and because I loved him, because he was safer than her, I went toward him every chance I got and she could never forgive me for it. Like she could never forgive me. My independance, everything I am reminds her we are different and not close at all. And seeing me triggers her right back to her abandonment, making it impossible for her to have a relationship. Every word I say, every small : no thank you but I do not want your old coat. is taken to heart. Everytime I see her, if I do anything else than tell her how great she is, there is a crisis.

The reason I find it so hard is because in my ethic, I also don't like turning my back on my mother, who is getting older every year. And I know it is a gift, that she will be living her best life with or without me. What I don't know is if I can live with myself with this decision?

I don't judge no contact, at all. Rationally, I know it is a very personal decision which varies with the trauma, the dynamics of the relationship between the two indivuals, and a lot of factors.

And for myself, I feel completely torn. I always wonder if I truly am trying enough.

Or am I just addicted to the drama?

I understand your feelings about not going NC with your mother. I didn't want to do that either.

I have been the scapegoat child, but there was a time where the golden child rebelled and I was achieving things that gave BPD mother bragging rights. I have always been close to the golden child regardless of our different positions. I had no intentions of showing them up and in fact, I didn't. Parents preferred the GC, but I became a potential source of validating BPD mom and it appeared I was in the fold. Seeing that I had a chance to become "good enough" for them, I became very compliant with them.

I had assumed the relationship with my mother was "my fault". She blamed me for it as well as the issues she had with my father. I assumed that once I left for college, things would be better. It appeared from the outside that they were.

I didn't spend enough time around my parents to see the whole picture until later. BPD mother managed to hold it together around my kids. When Dad's health began to change, and I spent more time around them, I saw a different picture.  I am not a psychiatric nurse, but I think being one on one alone in the house with my mother was similar to being assigned at one. I realize it was a stressful time for her but this was not something I had seen since I was a kid, only this time, my parents were not able to convince me this was "normal" behavior and that it was my fault. As an adult, I knew it was not, and it was overwhelming. I didn't have the skills or training to deal with this.

I can't recommend a specific book on 12 steps because, I did the whole thing. There were issues in my marriage too. It was a marriage counselor who told me I was contributing to these issues by being co-dependent and needed to attend a 12 step group. I also got lucky in that it seemed the universe matched me with the perfect sponsor. She was tough and honest. I then attended an ACA group for adult children of alcoholics and dysfunction. People think these groups are for alcohol and other addictions but the dysfunction in a family with a BPD parent is similar, and so they work well for that too.

To me the addiction model works well with our "addiction" to engaging in dysfunctional communications and addictions to drama. I honestly don't think I could have done it as well on my own with a book. It took a sponsor and her version of tough love as well as meetings. Also practice. We don't do this perfectly. We can fall into familiar patterns again but the difference is we recognize it. You are seeing it too.

There's a "hole story" about this. You see the hole. With practice, it get better.

I
I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost.
I am hopeless.
It isn't my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.

II
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don't see it.
I fall in again.
I can't believe I'm in the same place.
But it isn't my fault.
It still takes a long time to get out.

III

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in -it’s a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault.
I get out immediately.


IV
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.

V
I walk down another street.

by Portia Nelson

Riv3rwolf..I truly hope I didn't fuel any fires with my post. Having read the thread all the way through...I could sense your guilt and blame of yourself and hoped to make you see that the guilt is not yours to carry. I understand the urge to respond and defend yourself...I feel like I'm still finding myself defending myself in my head and having that conversation in my head SIX months later. It's unimaginably painful to be so misunderstood by the people that should love us unconditionally. I gave up on having the conversation with them, however, because I can see now that there is NOTHING I can say to make them truly see me...simply because they are NOT capable of seeing without distortions!


Agreed...the anger, the pain, the grief, the need for connection..it is ALL a normal reaction to our lived experience. I am also finding the 12 steps immensely helpful. I found a group in my area and it has been really good for me. I am working through my own disordered thinking...because I don't believe ANY of us can come out of growing up with Disordered and Alcoholic parents unscathed. The only advice I have to give is to be gentle with yourself and understand that what you are feeling is a NORMAL reaction to lifelong crazy making. It's NORMAL to want to defend yourself when someone inaccuratly paints you black. It's NORMAL to want a mother and to still love her...even when she has hurt you. We are humans and wired this way. The 12 steps are helping me to surrender and know that I can't change them...only myself. I can't make them understand...they simply aren't capable...making them try is like beating a dead horse...so to speak. I remind myself of this often when I am ready to hit send on something I wrote in defense of myself...it will only be distorted. ** I remind myself that I will NOT allow people who don't know me(or themselves) tell ME who I am!

I can tell you honestly...that I believe that there is no...easy fix. No Contact is NOT easy...the pain does NOT just go away. I am in a state of VERY complicated grief...Mothers Day was hard, Father's Day was hard, my Birthday was extremely hard. When I am in No Contact I feel pain, I feel unseen, rejected, etc. When I am IN contact I feel pain, unseen, rejected, etc. The goal for me is taking the space to untangle my own mess without THEIR mess, abuse, and projections mixing in! Someone told me to stop reaching for forgiveness...first get to acceptance. I think maybe once we are secure enough in who we are and accept that our parents are who they are (sick) we can stop being hurt by them, stop being disappointed by their inability to be the parent we wish they were and have a semblance of a "normal" relationship?(if we choose to) I'm sorry you are experiencing this...I know the pain well...and I wish there was a painless path to take. If anyone finds it...please also let me know where it is?

Sending you SO much support :hug:

I agree, there's a sadness to not being able to connect emotionally in a way that can be fulfilling.

I will have to print this. Thanks you for sharing it. I think you shared it before, but I didn't read it with the same understanding back then... My eyes are changing..

I can also now see that self-hatred is not the way to respond to my decision to go into the hole again. I went to the park with my children, played with them, met another mom who wanted to hang and have play date with us. It felt good. I am not a monster. I am a nice person, and my children are happy children. We made a sand dessert, my daughter was happy. Left my phone in the car and connected back to the moment for one hour and a half, and it felt good.

Im1109, no, you have nothing to do with what I am feeling and you did not fuel the fire.  If anything, what you wrote yesterday really helped me. You, this forum, everyone here has been a deep source of healing and validation for me.

Talking about it with my husband, he told me it is my own fault because I chose to listen to my brother. Notwendy: my husband gives me tough love, a lot of it, and I do find it very helpful. We had talk, my husband and I, in the morning prior to engaging, and I had told him this forum had led me to believe it wasn't worth answering, I could see it clearly, and my healthy decision was to not engage, and simply answer the initial answer.

Then my brother reached out and told me I should give her my point of view, share my truth, to give her a chance to heal, that she couldn't change if we didn't show her the way somehow. And I am the one who sent the first letter to him, I am the one who kept him in the loop, and I can see now this is another part of the family dynamic. I am looking for my big brother approval, I assume he knows more than me because he is the big brother.

And I listened to him. And this was the second step toward the hole. The first one having been to give him my power, to let him guide me by looking for his approval of what I send, of who I really am. And because he does love me and does approve of who I am, it doesn't feel wrong at first..

Now, I see that my brother was raised to save her. He has his own blind coverinf his eyes. He sees she is intense, but the abuse does not bother him. I suspect him to have a PD of his own, a communal narcissism. He was the first child, we are ten years apart, and he took care of her and of us, all his life. He was the savior. And he abused my other brother heartlessly when he was a teenager. I have this image of them both (my mother and him) beating my other brother on the kitchen floor while I watch from the corner of the room. I can see younger brother is holding back his tears, and I can feel their excitement. I know the game has turned to something very very wrong, but I am 6 and there is nothing I can do. So I stay there and I watch, wanting to tell them to stop and I don't.  

The oldest then left to travel, and he travelled the world, found spirituality and came back wanting to change the world. He built a community, where he stands at the top. He is a life coach... he does exorcism of demons, those are all big red flags on which I chose to close my eyes... And so, when the second letter came in, when I saw the emotional abuse, the hatred she sent me in response to what I tried to show her : my c-PTSD, my need for healing and for a loving space, I sent it to him, thinking : he read my letter, he knows it was fair and not abuse, he will see. But then he wrote me back: She is hurt. This is her truth. I know you see it that way, but this is her truth and it is just as valid.

When I told him I didn't have to tolerate that. He said : of course not. but I trust that you will both find your way toward healing.
And the doubt was seeded. He didn't condemn the abuse. He said : yes there are accusations, but this is her truth and she is hurt and that's what she sees. With both letters in hands, knowing me, knowing our lives, I still got a sense he was pushing for me to show more empathy toward her.

So I  started spinning my wheel.

My brother put fuel on the fire. He planted self doubt. He knows she screams, he knows she is intense, but he pities her. And so, when he read the last part he said : she is trying, look she says she loves you and that you are strong, there is an attempt toward recognizing you but she is clumsy.

He doesn't see how this might actually be PART of the abuse.

My husband told me (reworded but close to): your mother has years of practice on others and on you. She was cruel to you when you were but a little child, and she is still cruel, she knows exactly what she is doing and there is no excuse for what she did and is doing to you. I have no idea why you keep going back there after what she did.

And then he got enraged toward my brother, telling me : is that what he does as a life coach? Sending people back to their abuser, and getting more money out of them when things don't change? Planting self doubt, encouraging people to save the people who don't want to be saved?

And I thought he was very insightful. Maybe it is what he does. My psychologist told me cutting ties was fair. All of you here say it is fair. My husband, who knows my mother, who knows the whole story, tells me constantly to stop trying that she isn't worth it.  

I just start feeling lost in what the truth really is, because I was raised to accept everyone's truth as a valid truth. Even though part of me can now clearly see that some truths are deeply cruel with no empathy and no space for others.

She calls her vision : my facts. And then she goes telling me what I felt and why I felt this way. And somehow she thinks that what she thinks hold as much power as what I told her I felt, like she is in my head. Then she twists it around and somehow bring my father into the equation when they were separated for 30 years. Ain't it time to let go?

Maybe I am just not strong enough yet to be in contact. I am not solid enough yet in who I really am. I am still looking for validation from my brother, from my husband, from everyone and I keep doubting my own truth. My empathy has been and still is used against me in my family.

I do value being there for an elderly parent. I worked with elders for 6 years, I saw a lot of them, lonely, waiting on death, and this is not what I wished for my mother. But I have no idea how I could ever take her with me, even in contact. Very low contact will still not allow me to provide her the care she will need. I will trust my brothers to do that. I have the chance to have two brothers who want to save my mother, so I can let them do it, simply... And go my own way.

My father told me yesterday that his heart improved. He gained capacity since his heart attack. I still have time left with him and my stepmom. He is the one I will choose to help, to be there for when he needs me.

She still has my brothers.

As to if I tried enough ... I did. I am tired of falling into the hole. I am not who she says I am.

The thing I said, about being there, about seeing my children, I remembered, and I said it out of hope. Hope because I lived away and I didn't remember just how bad things could get with her, how abusive she was, how hurtful she could be. How she uses silence as a weapon every chance she gets and raise her tone and discharge all her anger on us whenever she doesn't get her way. I am tired of focussing on her pain, her hurt. She showed me many times, through her actions, who she truly is, and now is the time for me to start believing it.

The pull of family dynamics is strong. Your brother stepped in to do what he thought was the right thing to do. Don't be hard on yourself for wanting to do what he suggested. I don't think we stop wanting to be on good terms with our family members, even if our attempts to do this don't turn out how we wished they would.

Not all family members have the same experience with a disordered person, or they are enmeshed and don't see it. My mother's FOO is more sympathetic to her. I also have tried to prove to them that I am a nice person, deserving of their acknowledgement and attention, yet she remains their focus. I have just accepted that anyone connected to my mother is influenced by her and I remain cordial but not too involved with them.

One interesting aspect about dysfunctional family dynamics is that, when everyone does their part, the family feels more stable. If one family member steps out of the dynamic, it upsets that balance and all family members feel a sense of unease. They react by trying to get the family member back into their role to get back to that balance. If the family member does not, then the family has to rebalance- and that sometimes means casting out that family member. Your brother was acting in accordance to this.

RW, this is exactly what happened to me. NW has it absolutely right. When I went into therapy, one of the most shocking things that happened is that my then partner and family tried to force me back into being the old me. When the old me had been suicidally depressed, that is how I came to therapy in the first place. The family system was actually threatening my life. It was horrible.

Now, many years later, my parents are dead and my siblings have changed. That is because I changed. They did not like it in the beginning but I gave them no choice.

Hope this helps!
 :hug:

Khimbosis, Notwendy,

Thank you for your wisdom and validation. I appreciate it.

I do think, in the end, that maybe I kept my brother engaged because part of me wanted to be seen. The little Riverworlf wanted her big brother to see what mom does, and to bless my decision to leave the family. And I just don't think it will ever be possible, because indeed, his attention and focus will always be more on her. He feels he has to protect her, and understand her, and of course he'd rather I stay in the family fold... truth be told, despite the distance, I was the most enmeshed, the therapist, the main caregiver among the children, the one she called and texted everyday. With me gone, I wonder how things will look like for my  brothers. But I find it interesting that the abuse does not seem to bother them.

But the most important thing is that now that I know this part of me exists, I will be able to manage her better.

And in the end, if I am to remain in contact with him, I will have to set a boundary that I won't discuss anything regarding my mother and our past with him. Nor with my other brother for that matter...

And I don't blame them. In the end : they were victims of her abuse too. But I can't shake the feeling that he developped a NPD with a community type. My other brother is a diagnosed bipolar with drug addictions... And I am left wondering how I ended up here, seemingly unscathed compared to them. Or are my eyes wide shut to something else...

We will see how all of this evolves. But today, I feel much better. I went to bed early last night, went for a run this morning, and I decided it was a beautiful day, that I would keep it that way and that I don't have time for toxic people  *)

You might want to request that your brother not discuss anything about you with your mother or any other relative or family friends. I did this with my brother with BPD concerning my sister with NPD, and he seems to have maintained the boundary, despite taking her side most of the time.

Zachira,

I see often this boundary as something being discussed here and proposed, and I do wonder why is that so? Is it to keep my brother from being triangulated against me? Or to not give her tools against me? Have you experienced issues with no contact and someone talking about you with them, that they somehow found a way to use despite the no contact?

Riverwolf, oh I can so sympathize with being in this place of tense and futile communication back and forth...trying and trying to speak your own truth and get them to understand, but they simply can't. I was there with my mom and sisters, from January to April this year until I finally said "I'm done." My mother is still sending occasional messages, and every time, I want to reply, to explain, to defend myself... it is SO hard to let it go and not say anything. I don't feel that closure yet, personally, but also don't feel the freedom in my soul to say anything else yet.

Letting go of siblings is the hardest part of this, I think. I can say goodbye to my relationship with my mother, though it's painful...but to lose my siblings as well because they will always be loyal to her... is heart breaking. I understand your feelings of wanting your brother to understand and see from your perspective, and agree that it's probably not possible for him, at least for now.

Im1109, this was a fascinating point. Thanks for sharing. Something to think about.

Being NC is emotionally much more difficult than I expected. Riverwolf I hope you find the support you need.

This is really helpful and SO very true.


This is great Riv3rwolf... I've really been trying to focus on the delicate balance of processing my pain/grief while also being mindful and enjoying my life as well. The balance can be a real struggle for me..I am prone to bypassing...even Spiritually bypassing my pain. However, I can also find myself being completely overwhelmed and spending entirely TOO much of my day on processing and "figuring things out." Since we can't really "plan" when we have memories and need to process...I've been dedicating time slots to put away my phone and forget the world...exercise, play with my kids or dog, read, pray, etc. For me...I was finding myself filling all of my quiet moments...I'd listen to a podcast that would trudge up memories or emotions, etc. I was never giving myself the mental break that I needed. I ended up having a really interesting situation on my Birthday...I thought one of my parents would reach out(specifically my Dad) I am a Mom and I can't imagine one of my children's birthdays passing without, at the very least, acknowledging that they are loved and telling them that I'm happy they're alive(regardless of anything) It didn't happen...I was hurt(I didn't "DO" anything...except stick up for myself and tell them that I needed to focus on my own healing) I found myself feeling AMAZED by their inability to be parents(for my whole life), amazed that it all ended up the way that it did and amazed that they seemingly learned absolutely nothing from my brothers death.

But... Another year older...another year wiser. I recognized that I had heard from my in-laws, a few friends, and of course my husband and amazing kids. I  had felt sad and then I had this moment where I recognized that what(and who) I do have in my life is enough. I thought...why am I spending so much energy on my parents when I can put that energy into fostering the relationships that give me joy in this life? Or spend that energy on creating new relationships with new people. I remembered a quote from the book Wild by Cheryl Strayed:
 "That was my father: the man who hadn’t fathered me. It amazed me every time. Again and again and again. Of all the wild things, his failure to love me the way he should have had always been the wildest thing of all. But on that night as I gazed out over the darkening land fifty-some nights out on the PCT, it occurred to me that I didn’t have to be amazed by him anymore. There were so many other amazing things in this world.”
— Cheryl Strayed


 :wee: :heart:

Sending lots of support :hug:

Riv3rW0lf,
You are wanting to better understand my suggestion that you ask your brother to not give your mother, other family members, and other people information about you. I suggest you learn everything you can about flying monkeys and how they operate. Dr. Ramani has some good videos on youtube on this subject. Going no contact/low contact with my NPD sister and other family members and family friends, who engage in putting the golden children on a pedestal no matter how cruel they are, and who bully the scapegoats like me, has taught me a lot. I realized, I was enabling the abuse of myself and others, by giving out information to flying monkeys that was just used to further enable my NPD sister and others to abuse me more. Now I limit my contact with the flying monkeys and lie to the flying monkeys when it is in my best interests, which helps me to limit the ability of my NPD sister and others to abuse me. Being a flying monkey, is abuse by proxy. If there were no flying monkeys, the abusers would be held accountable for their behaviors and would have their ability to abuse others limited.

I agree about identifying the flying monkeys. There can be another dynamic at play as well- involving the Karpman triangle. I think these dynamics can be done without someone even being conscious about them. I know I did some things automatically. There was no harmful intentions, in fact, they were good intentions because when someone grows up with them, this is what they know. For example, stepping in as rescuer for other family members didn't seem dysfunctional. It was what I thought "helping" was because it was normal in our family.

Your brother may or may not be primarily aligned as your mother's flying monkey. We can play any role on the triangle. He may also genuinely care about you, but this is all he knows to do. I have that kind of relationship with a sibling. I know that this sibling cares about me and also understands what is going on with BPD mother. However, I also know that this sibling can also automatically step into rescuer role with BPD mother- because that relationship between them is the familiar one.

I share a lot more with this sibling than I do with BPD mother. However, if there is something I absolutely would not want her to know, I don't share it. Not because I don't trust my sibling. I do trust them. I just know that BPD mother can push their buttons in such a way that they may fall into rescuer mode, feel sorry for her, and then in the moment say too much to try to soothe her.

This is in contrast to my mother's FOO. They are strictly loyal to her and act as extensions of her. If they engage me, it's to serve her needs in some way. I know that whatever I say to them will be immediately shared with her. Sibling though, is attempting to have autonomy. They just "fall in the hole" as we all might do sometimes.

This decsribes exactly my take on this specific brother's relationship with my mother. But I do wonder what are the informations that you wouldn't share? Like... Where you go and when? Those kind of things? I'm just wondering what it is that she could use against me, I guess... I don't think she could get I to his head like she gets I to my other brother's head.

My second brother is the one that worries me the most. He cares about me, and he means well, but he says EVERYTHING, he would never be able to uphold this kind of boundary. He would likely discuss me with her openly, and then she influences him in seeing things a specific way. For example, he phones me, talks about dad, and ends up liking him and saying he is glad things turned out right between all of us. Then he phones her and when I talk with him again : my father is again the worst man in the world. Plus, he says he won't speak about my mother and I relationship, but then he slips small, fast comments about how she is doing, making excuses for her...he cannot keep himself from doing it.

I cannot say anything, else it is an overreaction, and I am told I am the one with a problem. So the wise path is to not engage with him.

But now, I find myself not even wanting to see him.

He is not a bad person, but he is highly attracted to drama. he is a drug addict and diagnosed bipolar. When he is there, he basically speaks none stop, and I can sense a discomfort between both of us. On the phone, or via texts: no problem at all. But in person, something is definitely off, like he feels bad about himself.

I wonder if this is not part of what my mother put in his head by always repeating him to take care of me, or to be more like me. I think he was the scapegoat, in the end. And part of him knows I am not responsible for it, because I never hurt him, and he genuinely cares for me, but my presence seems to trigger something in him. And I don't know how to act or put myself... I walk on egg shells...so I wonder if he isn't BPD too.

In all cases : having him around or a close relationship with him makes me stressed and anxious.

My daughter's birthday is coming up soon, and OF COURSE I made him the godfather (duh)...and I should invite him but I don't know that he would mesh well with the other people here... Also, I told.him I would visit this summer...and haven't gotten around to it because I am busy with the children, my thesis, work, my husband working and I feel the timer counting.

The thing is : I know if I don't, mother will use that against me with him. And if I do, he will tell her everything.

I am in a conundrum with this brother.



My mother recently had a fall out with a lot of her siblings, when she threw grandma out of her house. Most of them don't speak to her anymore, except for a few who actually decided to side with her for some reasons.

When I was in early low contact, my grandmother was sick and ended up in the hospital. My mother let me know but I didn't want to engage with her, so I contacted my aunt who is a nurse, to know more. She is not speaking with my mother anymore. And interestingly enough, when I went to visit grandma later on at my other aunt's house, one of my cousins, who never spoke to me, contacted me to see me she'd like to be there. She got that I wasn't on speaking terms with my mother. She couldn't come in the end, and I was glad, because I have no interest in embarking in my extended family dynamic either, nor to talk ill of my mother with them.  

When asked if I was going to see my mother, I said we were taking a pause of each other. My aunt said, it's ok, I don't want to know more, it is none of my business. I felt an urge to defend myself but in the end, I am grateful for her reaction and for disengaging from the drama.

Another cousin asked me about it, and I explained myself, and she understood quite well and said : you know, we are not our parents, we don't need to take sides like they do. And so, while I won't speak about my mother with her, I am grateful for her too. She has been through hell and back (lost one of her sons) and I think pain like that changes someone, either for the better or the worst. For her, it was for the better, she carries a lot of strength and resilience and wisdom, and she just doesn't have time nor care to judge anyone after what she has been through.

But I do wonder what are the information that you wouldn't share?

Anything that is emotionally sensitive, because that's where my mother can latch on to and be emotionally abusive. If anyone is upset about something, she can be cruel about it. Likewise, if you are happy about something, she can be critical and kind of spoil the moment. So it's not that the information is particularly private, but emotion seems to be a point of vulnerability that she may take the opportunity to exploit.

I do share my feelings about things with this sibling but not something I don't wish to be shared with BPD mother.

If the information is private, then no way, because she won't keep it confidential.

Riv3rW0lf,
You can lie and omit information if you need to protect yourself. Just think of how the information will be shared with your mother and how she will use it against you.

Riv3rWOlf, I have been away from this board for a while and just read this post from beginning to end. What a rollercoaster you have experienced. I am so sorry.

Reading it all in one sitting, I was initially encouraged by her reaching out and your clear boundaries. When your brother reached out and convinced you to send the other letter I was concerned, and then just profoundly sad and angry on how it unraveled from there. It is so horrible the things she said. It is all about her, her emotions and she totally gaslights you over and over again.

I relate so deeply with you about the inability to be your authentic self with your BPD mother. And also with the pure mental and emotional exhaustion that results from constantly validating and guarding your real feelings. You will have to make your own decision, but no contact may makemsense right now. I believe your brother is well intended but too enmeshed to be objective. I would be wary going forward of his advice and listen to your inner voice.

You have a beautiful family and you are a great mom. I hope you can focus on them and yourself as you deserve to spend your energy on the relationships that are positive and supportive.

I think your brother and your mother love you. At the same time, it may not be possible to have a healthy relationship with your mother given her personality disorder. I wish you peace and healing.

MommyDoc,

Thank you so very much for taking the time to read all that, and to post this morning. I think you are right that a healthy (or as healthy as they could potentially be with a BPD) relationship will not be possible with my mother. Thank you for your validation and empathy, it helps ease the guilt of it all.

I spent the last few days doing a lot of processing to understand what is going on, the deep dynamic between her and me.

Yesterday I was watching Dr. Ramani, and it didn't sit right with me. I don't think my mother is a narcissist. And I found this little gem:
https://youtu.be/ANQQeKp2jYk
Which really struck me like lightning. And now I understand why I have so much guilt and why BPD is such a hard one to deal with.

If she was a narcissist, it feels like it would be very hard, but at least it would be clear that love is not possible. With BPD, there is a bittersweet flavor to the abuse, because she can be very empathetic and she does feel an incredible amount of pain everytime I leave our relationship. What I saw as attention seeking is actually intense clinginess. Me, looking at my children instead of her, is abandonment. Me, not acknowledging her presence the second she enters the room, is abandonment. It is a sign I am not 100% with her, and so I must be leaving soon.

This is what makes BPD abuse so hard, doesn't it? We feel responsible for them, we want to ease their suffering because I get how broken she really feels, how empty. And while I know there is no way forward, while I am aware she should never have been my responsibility to begin with, I still feel like the parent abandoning her child.

The rage, the anger, the angry child I so often become, was the only protector I could have. I have to hate her, to be angry at her, I have to despise her to not get swallowed whole in her void. Rage was my protection. An unhealthy protection, but the only one I could come up with as a child.

But I finally get it. I finally understand what happened back in November...

We left.

We went and spent a week to my in-laws to find a house. And it triggered her abandonment fear.

Then, she was dysregulated, and as such, everything looked like aggression to her. And she started hurting me, and taking my emotions as aggression, internalizing them for herself, which is why it feels like she is describing ME in her letter instead of HER.

She dissociated, doesn't remember things clearly. Could only see me as the cause of all her pain, the woman who would take her grandchildren away. Because MY children are now her main trigger, like we probably were with my father. And she treated me like the persecutor, hurting me and then feeling deep shame for the pain she made me feel. She could not allow me to feel more pain than her, so she made my pain her own, my fear her own. Because they truly are empaths, but psychopathic ones. And they don't even realize it. She robbed me of my own emotions, and made them her own, and then blamed me for them.

And the other part of  the projection is of course is my father, the man who abandoned her and took her children away from her every second week. The man she never could triangulate me against, and she resents me for it, she never forgave me for choosing to continue going to his house when he had my sister. My brother chose her, he stopped going to my father's house, but I didn't. I loved my father and I kept going there every second week. And this was an impardonnable affront to her.

Which is why she started neglecting me. She went from love punctuated by sudden rages to complete neglect, barely acknowledging me, my life and my presence in the house, I less it was to rage because I didn't clean well enough. She didn't care anymore, she was disconnected, making me pay for loving my father.

She only truly came back in my life when I had children and is now going through the same cycle, only I have the role my father used to have, and my children are basically my brother and I.

This is all so sick and twisted.

And it will be impossible to have a clean relationship with her with the bond she wants to have with my children. She will wedge them, triangulate them against the persecutor, me..
 
And what makes it hard is : it is all done out of deep, profound pain. She feels lonely, misunderstood, a void of sorrow. And there is nothing I can do... And it makes me feel like the abuser, in the end, even though I am not.

And this is why I hate BPD so much... Because they feel so deeply and they don't hide it. They are genuine, but completely dissociated from reality during an episode... And it seems I can only see my mother during episodes, because I trigger an old pain she never healed from and will likely never be able to heal from.

NPD is a horror movie. BPD is a tragedy.

Riv3rW0lf,
I feel like you are really starting to understand the true sorrow of having a close family member with BPD and how it is different from NPD. My mother with BPD and brother with BPD have been truly generous at times, and I feel sad about their emotional pain. My sister with NPD is truly heartless, and I feel her generosity is all about manipulating people so she can take advantage of them. I do believe it is more painful to go no contact with a person with BPD because if we are empathetic, we truly feel sorry for them, and would like to ease their pain. With a narcissist, the behaviors just become more cruel with time, and so it does not seem to be so hard to go no contact, once we have enough self esteem to do so.It seems like your decision to go no contact with your mother is what is going to work for you right now, help you to heal, and set the boundaries you need for the future whatever your level of contact is with your family.

It is complicated. My BPD mother fits BPD better, but she also has an NPD streak. Her demeanor towards me is cold. Sometimes she says something nice but it sounds as if she's faking it because it's still not warm. I find myself bristling when she talks like that.

Last time I visited her, she acted as if she didn't care if I visited or not. She hasn't asked me to visit since. I realize she didn't ask me to visit. I assumed she'd want to see me so I initiated it.

The visit didn't go well. She got angry a lot, told me the visit upset her. After I left, I wondered what to do if she ever asked me to visit her but she has not asked me. I don't know if she's afraid to ask after how it went or she really does not want to see me. Either way, I am not going to bring it up, because it's possible that she really doesn't want me to. She has asked the golden child sibling to visit, but not me.

Yet, due to her BPD, she does have a lot of emotional pain. I don't want to cause her to be upset and I do feel empathy for her that she has such difficulty but I also don't know if she has empathy for others. It's hard to tell.

Zachira, yes I feel like this last outburst, while it felt like many steps backward, was actually a huge leap forward. Now I know the real cause of my anger, and I can recognize it, while still having access to my empathy toward her. I used to only feel rage or guilt, and I can see why, and understand myself better. And now I can also see this rage is not needed anymore. I can finally rationalize her behavior, somehow, and understand where she comes from and when I come from. It doesn't mean that I'd want to go back, but I feel a bit more at peace toward her... Maybe forgiveness will be possible after all. And yes, no contact now feels more heartwrenching than before... Before it was out of anger and self-preservation, now it's because I just know it cannot ever change without her going into therapy, and she likely won't ever do that.

Notwendy, if you have 20 minutes and want to watch the video, maybe it will help you understand it better too. From what I gathered, Vulnerable/Covert Narcissism is often misdiagnosed for BPD, but to be diagnosed as BPD, you must have empathy. Some PD are co-morbid, but empathy seemed to be one of the biggest key point of BPD. They have too much of it, and from what I gathered, they basically absorb the emotions of the people around them, and cannot differentiate what others feel from what they themselves feel... The sentences of feeling like an emotional punching bag, or a sponge, took all their meaning when he talked about it in the way he did in this video.

Any emotion around them other than joy and admiration is taken as personal, they feel it and think it is either their own, or that they are responsible for it which leads to a lot of shame and self-hatred and self-loathing.
My mother does not do self-loathing in front of me, but I know she does it, in her general demeanor and the way she is, the lack of self esteem...

He really explained it well ... For me anyways. Hopefully it can help others.

Riv3rwolf, the video you posted was very interesting...and the post is really insightful. I've struggled with this because my Mom seemed to allow her Npd traits to dominate over the years. When I read Stop Walking On Eggshells over a decade ago(wow) I felt like the book was written about my family. I resonate with her being mostly "the witch" this definition of witch on this site seems to describe my childhood with her perfectly

https://outofthefog.website/personality-disorders-1/borderline-mother-types

However, witch seems to be VERY similar to NPD...maybe moreso than other BPD types like...waif. So I deeply resonate with videos on NPD by Dr ramani and others. It's complicated...I feel that my Mom's outbursts have always stemmed from the BPD fear of abandonment...but I do NOT see her as having empathy. I've even seen psychopathic traits like when she got rid of my cat to punish and hurt me after I admitted to a friend about my eating disorder as a teen, threw my Dad's cat out of a car when she got mad at him, she once even called me up raging about a woman at a veterinarian office who yelled at her because my Mom brought a PUPPY to the vet and told them to put it to sleep because it was demented...the woman yelled at her for trying to KILL a puppy for simply being a puppy and not being able to handle it(My mom couldn't see anything wrong with herself..it's all the puppies fault and then this woman for yelling at her) my Mom then left the puppy there. However, when I was a child she did 'seem' to have an attachment to our family dog. So maybe her PD's have transitioned/worsened over time?

What you said about empath and absorbing everyones emotions reminded me more of my Dad(who is also an alcoholic) he seems to take on HER emotions completely. If he came home from work and she was enraged...he would immediately become enraged(even though he had no idea why) I remember that if I fell and scraped my knee or hurt myself in any way he would become overwhelmed and seem to get mad at me for being hurt? I actually saw myself doing this a few times when my children were younger and I had to consciously work through it...for me it did come from a complete overwhelment and also an intense feeling of empathy for them being hurt...but initially my emotions would "come out sideways" (so to speak) because it dysregulated me.


This resonates very deeply with me! Once the anger and self-preservation wears off we are left with the truth...they are sick and refuse help. It seems that you have the ability to look at your mother's situation with empathy and a level head and I commend you for that...I believe that is what leads us to forgiveness...which is ultimately for *us* and our own peace...not for them. I agree that you have taken huge leaps forward and you should definitely celebrate that. Sorry this turned into a bit of a rant...this post was eye opening. I feel like accessing my empathy towards her still seems scary to me...because it was that empathy kept me accepting abuse. I need to recognize that I can access that empathy for myself and my own forgiveness journey.

Sending lots of support  :hug:

It is complicated, I agree. Truly, the only thing I was able to explain myself is what happened in November and the current struggle in our relationship, and I gathered it mostly from her letters and this video. Your post gave me more thoughts on the matter, I'll share them. I don't know for you, but for me, when my brain understands better something it helps decrease the pain from it.


A lot of what Dr. Ramani says seem to apply to abusive relationship, in general, for me anyway. BPD abuse feels just as psychopathic as narcissistic abuse, and it hurts just as much, to be sure. It's just the bittersweet flavor to the BPD that gets to me.

I do have sweet memories with my mother, where we laugh and are having fun after we bumped into a naked man fishing, while we are boating on a river... my mom is telling me to pedal in the pedal boat, but the current is leading us straight to the man, and we end up with literally his sexe at the height of her faces, 2 feet from him, trying to keep a straight face, wishing him a good day and if he caught some fish. It was a beach of nudist, and we laughed so much... I also remember an event where my sister in law lashed out at me during a morning brunch and my mother came to see me outside and she was genuinely worried for me, and wanted me to feel better, another where she is making me smell the lilac tree, or where she is showing me a pie she made. And I can feel her love in those memories, deep love.

But like you, when dysregulated, she was a witch. Hurting me by using existing wound I had, pulling my hair when she wanted to "play with them", pulling an unready teeth out, screaming at me, blaming me for everything, throwing me a jar of glass shattering it at my feet... and like you : she called me at my father's house to tell me she would kill my cat because I was never there anyway. Always finding new ways to hurt me deeply. Called me fat, called me a slut after I'd been sexually abused. I was young and weak, and she preyed on me.

And now that I am an adult, she is mostly Queen and Waif.

The switch, the flip on me, the scare of another outburst, the not knowing which mother I was going to get is what made it impossible to trust her.

but I don't think a narcissistic parent would be able to convey a feel of love? But a BPD parent might... (I might be wrong though, maybe NPD can make others feel love too, this is just a hunch). Anyhow, my mother could show love when she wasn't dysregulated... Which was not very often, since, like I realized, my father is her main trigger and I am my father's daughter.


I've seen my mother hurt animals too, abandon them and physically hurt them, like she hurt me. Like I mentioned earlier, I also have a cat episode with her. What is it with BPD and cats ?

But I think those were during periods of dysregulation. When she was dissociated, she could become a psychopath. And she probably doesn't remember those. That's what I see anyway. And to be clear : I am not excusing her abuse, far from it... Just trying to understand the disease. She needed to hurt me as much as she hurt?

Plus, BPD is often comorbid with narcissism, so I do recognize a lot of narcissistic traits in her, with her critics, her baits... But the difference is she also has a very strong inner critic, which is also why she is constantly looking for validation and approval. But it doesn't feel narcissistic, it has a child like feel to it... Which makes me feel like the parent. 



I also have strong empathy. It took me a while to differentiate my own feelings from other's feelings. Even now, when my husband gets frustrated, I have to consciously make an effort to remember those are his emotions, not mine, and to find myself back... and I also have moments where my emotions overwhelm me and I lose patience and I know it is my C-PTSD, or fleas, and I have to make a conscious effort to come back to the present. I am better at it now, but used to feel so guilty.

Maybe you father was HSP?

I now see my mother as a highly dysregulated HSP, so empty that she thinks everyone else's emotions are her own. Which is also why she HAS to make friends with highly rational people, and never with someone who is emotional, else it is a recipe for disaster. And to be clear : I do make a distinction between showing empathy and having empathy. I think they have the skill, but they cannot show it to others... How could they? Since they cannot differentiate their own feelings from other's feelings, then they cannot know it is YOU feeling the pain... They experience it as their own, without realizing it... So the end result is abuse : making you feel guilty for your own pain, and making you feel like they are the one hurting.



I so very understand that. That's the other reason I hate BPD... My own empathy becomes a weapon against myself. And rage was my only go to. I have so very much of it... And I am very slowly starting to let go, albeit I do have periods of strong anger toward her. I think this is separation? Anger as a process to completely separate...

Just some thoughts. I feel that until my brain can truly capture who she is, and her disease, I won't be able to let go of my anger completely.

Thank you for your post because it helped me understand a little bit more... I know I can be wrong of course, but this truth helps me make peace with all of that...and in the end, I think that's what we all have to do : find, from our own perceptions and informations gathered, what feels right... Our mothers are all different too.

I find that for me, when what my mind thinks feels right, anger subsides, because I feel more solid and at peace with myself. I found truth, and often, this truth is born from a place of love and understanding. I feel like my anger is protection, but also a sign that I don't get it yet, if that makes sense? That it is still not my self in control. That I am missing pieces of the puzzle. When those pieces feel assembled, then I feel more at peace with it all...

This makes a lot of sense to me.

Are the missing pieces of the puzzle the parts of you that were lost from a lack of healthy, safe parenting?

If so, I can see how there would be a near constant sparking of anger in response to healing.

Wouldn't a child placed in extreme *unsafety* feel so aggrieved, so livid? Your true self would know: this is not fair, this is not right. You maybe had some stretches of normalcy but knew it was temporary. More anger -- now you cannot trust even the good though you perhaps felt desperate for it, and were compelled to embrace it even knowing it was fleeting. Maybe you even felt anger for allowing yourself to indulge in that short-lived feeling of normalcy.

And it sounds like you have a sibling who could've helped but maybe his coping was to always be smoothing things over, which kept the unit intact but didn't necessarily keep you safe. Your safety was not the priority. More anger.

Your sibling seemed to have more abilities, more resources, he displayed tenderness and kindness, but in the end his own coping was to enable, and that can be even trickier because we place trust in these people, and they are deeply flawed. They are witnesses to the abuse and they may validate it, but they are not committed to ensuring our safety, not at the expense of what they are getting from the dynamics, the fantasy that they can smooth things over and fix ruptures, including ones we create by trying to protect ourselves. He could be trusted, but not entirely. Not when it came to your safety. You played a role that could be discussed and understood, but not changed. You served a purpose -- rock the boat but do not tip it over.

So while the anger fits with what you experienced (still experience), you are an adult now and can keep yourself safe.

But it is still you doing the work a parent was supposed to do, work even an older sibling could've helped with. Maybe he did some of that, but he did it poorly. After all, he was surviving too.

As you heal, wouldn't there be this anger about still being put in a position to parent yourself -- yes, you are more capable, you have access to all the levers and privileges of adulthood that you couldn't access as a child. But you still have to do this job that was supposed to be your actual parent.

Now, as you pull away to heal and understand, no one in the unit seems to appreciate how brave this is, how important it is, how much courage it takes, how painful and scary and essential it is. More anger.

Anger was the weapon that hurt us, and so we may associate it with damage. It should be a feeling that propels us to action, and it can be. It can also feel dangerous because anger was dangerous, it was the root of the pain. It makes us like them.

In my family, it is my uBPD brother who terrorized our family.

Healing started only when I asked for help to escape a BPD marriage. My n/BPDx husband is a carbon copy of my brother and father, fused.

Because my n/BPDx husband was outside the family unit, my parents could acknowledge the abuse and they helped me escape, literally. But when that wound opened FOO wounds, and I sought help from therapy and began applying lessons from my divorce to my family, it was a different story. There will be no help escaping abuse inside the family. For that to happen, I had to work alone.

For me, the missing pieces of the puzzle came from fully embracing the work of self-parenting. I no longer ask, expect, seek or trust parenting from my parents. It will not happen, they cannot do it. They cannot reflect on my childhood as adults because emotionally they are children themselves -- I was simply another child in a family of children. They were raised by children themselves so there is no other reality. Emotional immaturity and a poorly defined sense of self in themselves and others is typical, it's normal, it's safe and real and familiar.

I am something different. I did something foreign and dangerous and unspeakable. I reached outside the family and reached deep inside.

I keep a toe into their world by going through motions that make things appear like an intact family. I listen to my anger as a guide. Usually this happens during moments of profound disconnection. Depending on what the cause is, I change the topic, say nothing, nod my head, plan an exit, go for a walk, breathe deeply, call a friend, see my therapist. I find tactics that work for me. I found estrangement very taxing and also essential.

What I have now feels like an internalized estrangement, if that makes sense. I am able to take what I learned from the away years and find those parts of myself when I'm in their presence. I an draw from that pool of calm. I'm less inside the anger, or along for the ride. Now it's a turning signal, I think that's maybe what anger is supposed to be? I never erupted in anger like uBPD brother or golden child dad. I didn't throw weird adult child tantrums like my waif mom. For me, anger was something dangerous to express so it went underground and got buried, even though it coursed through me. I lost touch and lost insight into what it was doing and that made me feel out of control.

It's still like that, I think. Sometimes I think it shows up as anxiety or control issues, and sometimes it comes out as competition. There's probably more attached that I haven't learned yet but having words to describe it and a better grasp of cause and effect stabilized most of it.

A friend of mine had severe asthma as a child and his mother essentially kept him inside. He didn't play sports and didn't develop motor memory. After he left home and learned to manage his asthma he discovered a lot of sports. Without a motor memory, he had to break down what the motions were and think about them, then apply those insights.

I feel like that's what the missing pieces are kind of like. I have to learn from friends here, read books, talk to therapists, then try out what I've learned in my family. Then return to headquarters to discuss whether these skills are the right ones, are they working, what else might help, what am I missing.

In one of your posts you ask:



The letter is not the thing.

The thing is how the letter made you feel, before you translated it, after you translated it, a few hours later, days later, years later. How you felt after you shared it here.

You are learning to trust yourself.

The letter is a mirror to that work.

It will look different depending on who you are when you read it, how you feel, what is happening as you change perspectives and stumble forward with yourself as a guide.

 :hug:

livednlearned,

Your post resonated so very much with me and I wanted to come back to it at a moment when I had an extended period of time to process and write.

Thank you so very much for this answer and for sharing your experience and wise understanding. You've given me words on feelings that didn't quite have the right words yet, and now they do. So from the bottom of my heart, thank you. :heart:


Yes, they absolutely are. I am starting to realize that the healing journey I've been on since I have realized my mother was BPD has actually nothing to do with my mother herself... It is about finding myself, who I am, what I value and to learn to trust my truth and myself. Trust my kindness, trust my empathy, trust my assertiveness... To trust the adult I can be and am becoming a little bit more every day.

All my life, it feels like I have lived not to become who I am, because what I am was not appreciated, but to buy peace, and not disturb too much. So it's not that I lost myself, it's that I couldn't meet myself. Now I am learning that I have a place in this world and I have a right to take it.  I am discovering who I am and finally developing those healthy parts of me that had to stay hidden for a very long time. And as more of them are being met and validated, anger subsides, because I become more solid, more whole.



I did.  Against my hope, against myself. This anger covered the deep sadness and pain my inner child felt to not be able to have a safe relationship with her mother. Like you though, I am now embracing the whole reparenting philosophy... A perspective that truly only became accessible when I became a mother.


This is exactly it. You described the relationship with my oldest sibling to a T. We are ten years apart, and I always looked up to him. And the last episode finally opened my eyes to the dynamic with him. And you decsribed it perfectly.

I will have to set boundaries with him. At least I know that with strong boundaries within myself, that he won't cause me any grief.



I wonder if part of this anger was not also in reaction to my confusion. Because I didn't understand why they were acting this way.

As an example, I received a gift for my daughter's birthday via mail yesterday. It was from my mother. She had left the receipt in. Somehow I think there was a hidden message in all of this, but I didn't even look for it. I didn't feel any anger either. I understand her motive, I understand what she is trying to do, what she wants. And as such, I don't feel angered. And I remain strong in my own truth and boundaries. Because I understood, I also didn't feel guilt.

My anger comes up when I don't understand something that is clearly unfair. And it subsides almost entirely once I know why the other person acted the way she did.  I've seen that pattern before why my mother in law.

I imagine little Riverworlf was incredibly confused, growing up. She didn't understand why she was being blamed for things she didn't do. She didn't understand how her mother could stop speaking to her for weeks because of a simple desire to spend Christmas with dad this year. She just didn't understand what was going on around her, and no one tried to explain. And all the sadness born from this confusion and painful actions, she was deeply hurt, and a hurt animal will lash out, it will show anger and fear to protect themself from pain...

But then, the rage of a child can easily be turned around against themself, so the rage was bottled up and it stayed there a long time, and is still there at times : A rageful observer, who in the end is just very confused.

As I am making sense of my life, of my present, of who my FOO is, the rageful observer seems to transform into a simple observer.


I agree with this.

Also, not too long after feeling anger, often born of confusion, I start feeling guilt. My mother always used guilt against anger. If I was angry, she would become waif, and I would feel guilty for my anger. But because the confusion of it all was all there (she even used it to her advantage, gaslighting me), because part of me knew something was wrong, the anger stayed, buried deep. I just couldn't show it and express it.

Children know when they are being treated unfairly.


It must have felt confusing when it happened. Them helping you flee an abusive husband, but not being able to see the abuse within their own ranks. My mother is a bit like that, come to think of it... She would never allow any bad comments from my sister in law toward me or my other brother, but when it is her doing the critics and abusing us,  when it was my brother calling me fat and making me feel small, is was all tolerated as normal.

Abuse from the FOO toward the FOO is encouraged, but the FOO will protect you from the abuse coming from the world... In a twisted way, this is just another disguised way to keep us in line. "Stay here and I will protect you from the world, in exchange, I can do what I want with you and you will comply."



Yes, and it now feels I can also recognize the hurt children hidden behind my neighbors and people I meet. The people that don't feel quite right, when you know something is off.

Strangely I also observe now that I feel a pull toward those people, and I think this pull is some kind of flea from my past... They feel familiar, so it must be safe? But now I know it is not and my guts confirm it...

But I find myself reverting to old habits, people-pleasing traumatized people that are clearly projecting their trauma on the world around them. I should keep strong but part of me feels swallowed, this part is hard to keep leashed.

But I am aware now, so I know most of the battle is already done. Now I just need to observe and practice standing firm, to call on my inner healthy parent, because I now know how she feels, to remain true to my self, and not get pulled into bad dynamics.

I just want peace.


Beautifully written. Gave me shivers (the good kind). I feel so much strength and wisdom in those words. Thank you.


It does make sense. And it seems like your inner healthy adult is in charge most of the times. Maybe one day I will get there, this gives me hope.

And I do think this is maybe what anger is supposed to be.


Amen to that. I was in a fog. But my deep self agree with this, and this what I mean when I talk about the observer. Observing the world, my reaction to it and trying to figure out the pieces triggered to heal them. The whole world is a mirror to do that work, ain't it?

The only place we can see is always within...

Again, thank you so very much for sharing your thoughts with me. This was a deep read and processing, and this is why I come here... I don't have many places nor friends with whom I can have those kind of discussions, and I find I need those to feel whole. This forum is an incredible place of wisdom.

Likewise, same for me. I am trying to understand things, too. When I read what others are working through, when you describe what feels familiar, it feels like finding a puzzle piece.


What a wonderful way to think of this, meeting yourself for the first time. I have this image of myself as a doll with missing or broken limbs. I found ones that fit and attache them -- they work better. I'll never look like the original but all the parts work, I am mostly whole, but still search in case a new part comes along that works even better.  |iiii


This is similar to where a lot of my pain and confusion lives. I sometimes think I will remain baffled by my anger, that I'll always be experimenting and figuring it out, trying to understand whether it's helping or hurting, whether it's healthy or not. If you can't show it or express it because of abuse, then it seems that learning to express anger is healthy. But then we're like them.

I'm also unclear the extent to which my uBPD sibling, and to a lesser (but arguably more painful extent) my adult child mother intentionally set up dynamics like the one you describe . Do you think your mom set things up to elicit your anger so she could play waif?

My sibling worked in the open when it was just the two of us, but when others were around he worked in the shadows. He was constantly constantly working angles. A lot was pushed into the darkness and I just remember feeling exhaustion, how chronic it felt to be vigilant, hyperalert, on high alert, read the signs, anticipate the moves. It was competition for scarce resources, like starved animals fighting for scraps. But in retrospect, I felt so weary and damaged as a kid. What would I even do with any scraps I managed to get? Who wants scraps like the ones that were even available?

I remember returning home after having moved out in my teens. I had a large lantern type light fixture I bought for my childhood room, and for some reason, felt I had outgrown it. So I took it down. My mom went to my dad to complain without saying anything to me directly, and suddenly I was on the receiving end of a tirade, out of nowhere. Pure fury.

This is where I get lost. Did your mother set something up because she knows which buttons to push? And does she push those buttons because she knows it will rain gold for her, with no regard for the cost you will pay?

Sometimes I wonder if my mom hates me, deep down. If all of them hate me.

I read Eve Ensler's book The Apology, which is the fictionalized letter she imagines her father would write from hell for sexually abusing her.

What felt right to me, what made sense in what she writes is that abusers want to both have and destroy the thing they most deny in themselves. The thing they do not have or weren't permitted to have or can't have -- that's what they want. So they take it whatever way they can, even if they destroy it in the taking. Maybe they want to destroy it, because then you're destroyed too, like them.

It is the only time I've read anything that explained why family members would collude in abuse. And then profess love.


I guess? I don't think I connected the dots between feeling hurt and traumatized and what was unfair. Not until later when it was too late.


Yes, and I also cannot draw attention to the fact that what I'm doing is protecting myself. It cannot be discussed. In fact, discussing it reignites the dysfunction. It's like being in my own boat with all the safety equipment -- they are tolerating that. The away years shocked them.

But if I point out that I'm in my own boat, that I have safety equipment, that they seem to be taking on water, then we are back to dysfunction.

I cannot draw attention to my newfound safety. I can only embody it.

I like this image too !


I guess... yes I may feel guilt also because I do not want to be like my mother. I feel guilty every time I feel anger, part of me anyway, even if I express is healthily. To me, it is like I never express it soft enough, I somehow see myself screaming and losing it, even though I am not? My husband tells me I usually just become very assertive and straight, but I don't scream, I don't hit, I don't throw things, and I am clearly not discharging it on my children like she was... So it is a struggle that while I know, rationally, that I am not like her, I still feel like I am when I feel and express my anger, even healthily. I think you are right that in the end, I just don't want to be like her. 


I think it is a real possibility. Even the last time I saw her, she was completely dysregulated. And at some point, I made the decision I would leave and made plans with my father. She did not know. I had a few days left and I decided to just grey rock and care for my children the best I could, despite my triggered PTSD. And she kept baiting and baiting and baiting ! And it became clear that she made it on purpose. She'd rather have me fight and hurt and angry at her, than grey rocking. I don't think there is anything worst for her that the disconnect feeling that comes with someone that is grey rocking.

And the less I bait, the more scared she looked? Her tactics were not working anymore. Thinking back on it, I think she felt stuck with her own shame of hurting me.

If I bait, and talk back, then she gets to act as waif and dump her shame on me, leaving her feeling good about herself. If I don't, she remains stuck with her own guilt and shame, and it escalates within her. And in the end, she looked like a scare, abandoned little child... All this because I wouldn't react to her baits.

So yes, I think they do it on purpose to achieve waif and "clean" their shame.


Someone who is deeply starving for love and validation. I can relate to the exhaustion. I was always stressed. At her house, as a kid, I kept having nose bleeds. They stopped when I moved out. And when I went there as an adult last November, I started having nose bleeds again! I couldn't believe it... I finally realized it was my heart beating faster from the anxiety. My body showed all the signs, my head was just trying to keep above water. It is an impossible thing, to grow whole in those kind of settings.


Yes I think so. But I don't think it is us they hate... it is themselves. They don't see us. So they can't hate what they don't see. My mom seems to resent that I made it to a healthy life. I am still trying to figure out why... It must have to do with her own regrets.


I will put it on my read list !


Maybe not... I don't know, I just have this memory of me arriving to school after my mom screamed at me in the car for being arrested for driving too fast. And she lost it on me, started screaming at me in the car after the police officer left. And I remember feeling so angry. And I got to school, got out of the car without saying a word, and the first thing I said to my friend was how unfair my mom was treating me, I was 8 I think... Maybe I was just older and understood more?

Or maybe the fact that my parents were separated really acted as a shield. I could see my father treating me a certain way, usually with love, albeit detachment too. And on the other side was my mother screaming and blaming me for everything. It was so different. I often felt like my personality was cut in half and maybe this is why I could dissociate so easily, and not recall what happened at my mother's house. I am not sure... Something else to reflect on.