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Hi all. TLDR on my situation: married for 5 months, together for 4.5 years. He's the kindest most thoughtful person ever but I suspect he had quiet Bpd.. He was triggered by something I said, split and ignored me for a month. I chose to go on a two week vacation we planned and he didn't come. He raged and blamed me for him losing his vacation and threatened divorce and me to move out. I came back home, after two weeks we talked and had a heart to heart.m. We had two good days together before he got triggered into another split. That month was relatively ok and we were actually hanging out still and speaking, but then yesterday happened.

I needed validation and asked him a few questions about us, but his mood seemed off. Long story short I ended up sobbing and he ended up upset at me. Later he sent rage messages blaming me for ruining his day. Last night I went to bed and he had taken all the blankets. I went to get a small blanket and came back to the bedroom and naturally went to grab my pillow on the bed. I didn't know it was his pillow, so I accidentally gently took it away from him who was sleeping on it. Turns out my pillow was on the floor.

He went to the living room. Since then he's pulled the blanket off of me twice, sent me a mean message, and called me dumb and kept turning my fan up to bother me. As I left he grabbed the blankets I brought him and threw them at me. He opened the curtains a few hours later.

During our talk, he was so apologetic and he can't believe he did those things. I believe him. But now I'm just not sure I can take this anymore. He's been split for 3 months. I feel guilty for even thinking about separating because we just made vows.

I don't know what to do. We just got married and I'm in a situation where I'm waiting for my residence permit as I'm in a foreign country. So if I go back home, I'm not allowed to come back until my residence permit is approved. But if I do that then we're probably broken up forever. I haven't made a decision but I'm trying to walk myself through all possible plans. I'm also supposed to pay rent for the rest of the year and I can't bring myself to just dump that all on him. I could also just stick it out and see what happens. Does anyone have helpful advise or experienced something similar?

We want to welcome you here. :hi:  Though it is distressing that it is for very serious problems.  We can help to walk you through the education needed to understand BPD and how to gain skills and tools to improve communication.

I suspect that the change from manageable 4 years relationship before marriage to the distressing post-marriage behaviors has a major factor, though surely there are other factors as well.  We often refer to BPD F.O.G... Fear, Obligation, Guilt.  I will focus on Obligation here.

What changed when you got married?  You entered into an obligated relationship — it's not easy to back out of a marriage or to unwind one.  It is good that you are addressing the poor behaviors before you are married for many years or before you start having children.  (Having children vastly complicates ending a marriage.)

So now he feels you're obligated to stick with him.  In a manner of speaking, he feels free to let his rages, moods and triggers loose onto you.

Does that seem to be what happened?

Thank you so much ForeverDad, I really appreciate it.

For more context, he's sent me aggressive/abusive texts a handful of time when I was on vacation, and a few days ago when he got upset by me trying to have a conversation with him. In general, our entire relationship has been aggression/rage-free, really except for last night.

It's interesting because got married at a courthouse for me to get a residence permit to live in this country with him. Though we are still married and happily call each other husband/wife, it doesn't feel as serious as if we were to do a wedding (which we'd love to one day). The first two months of marriage were great actually!

I'm finding it hard to believe that he is now "releasing" his actual self to me. In our 4.5 years of being together, after every split he's been so apologetic, we talk them through very seriously, and I learn a little more about him every time. It's been a journey but he's always maintained to be the best person I know. Hence why last night felt so scary. Even a month ago when we had our heart-to-heart, he said that he could not live like this anymore and this experience was a wake up call for him to truly get help.

So, in a way I feel like I need more evidence. I want to be 100% sure I am walking away for the right reasons, because even though our marriage was for me to live with him, I still take it seriously. Additionally, I want my 5k deposit on the apartment back haha!

I want to echo Forever Dad's suggestion about commitment giving him the feeling that he can show more of the side he often doesn't show to people. The behaviors of BPD are most prominent with the most intimate relationships. It can be confusing to see that they can be composed and charming with acquaintances and different with immediate family. Their fears and insecurities are more apt to be higher with the people closest to them. It's sad because those of us who are close to them also care about them the most, but the relationship is more difficult.

So even if the two of you were together, marriage is a step closer and a larger commitment. I also think on another thread that you mentioned the two of you were long distant for part of it? Even if it seemed fine, an LDR is much less of an emotional demand for them than living together on a daily basis. They can hold it together for a specific time better than every day.

I don't have all the answers but I think there are two situations. One is dating and the other is marriage. It may be that dating worked but whether or not marriage works is another question that you will need to work out for yourself.

So you did have a rocky relationship.  It's one thing to have arguments, another to call it quits, multiple times.  The clues were there but didn't make the impact, until now.

We have never broken up. When I say split, I mean splitting, as in every time he suddenly paints me black and devalues me, or even devalues himself. Otherwise the relationship has been very loving, thoughtful, and really the best relationship I could imagine. When he did have his splits, they were inwards (ie, ignoring me), we always talked through them, how to go from here. I have never imagined not being with him because of how well our relationship has been. I understand this can be hard to imagine, but it is why I am so shocked at the last few months.

Nice to see you again NotWendy, though unfortunately at the "Conflicted" boards now. I am deeply confused because him during a split doesn't feel like "another side to him.". It just feels like an uncontrollable tantrum during a triggered and emotionally dysregulated state. Of course he masks when he goes out and work, and unmasks when he gets home. But this clearly isn't who he is, because when he gets out of his split he's in shock. He can't remember everything, and he's in disbelief he ever did anything. I agree that the LDR was less intensive, and yes we were together majority of it. We've just however lived together for many times, 3 months at at time. I guess that's different than moving in together and getting married.

To be quite honest, I'm very upset at myself. I know it's an irrational feeling. He clearly told me that he needed space and time to heal. He clearly told me that he was scared of blowing up and breaking up with me in the process, something he is clear he does not want. Yet I still pushed him and tried to have that conversation with him. Now he's blown up still.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were referring to that other meaning of "splitting".


This isn't him when he's triggered and emotionally dysregulated?  I would venture he is both sides, the normal side and  the dysregulated.  He's not two people.  This is him.

Many husbands arrive here and say, "My wife is a great mother but she has all these poor behaviors, etc."  I'm not explaining this well, hopefully someone will expand on this.

It is who he is. When he splits, he's actually split the part of him he's ashamed of- and presents the part he thinks people need to see. His fear though, is that if they saw the part he's ashamed of, they'd reject him. The bond of marriage somehow lessens this inhibition. He still is afraid of abandonment, it's just not as easy for you to do that.

Not remembering doesn't mean it's not him. It means that part of him causes so much shame, he's developed ways to keep it out of his consciousness. My BPD mother does this. Now some things she does remember, some she doesn't, and some she doesn't admit to. Dysregulating serves a purpose for her. It allows her to let out all the uncomfortable feelings she has without her feeling more guilt and shame for what she does. It also serves to "reset" for her. She's often nicer when she comes out of a dysregulation as she's released her uncomfortable emotions. For the targets though (her immediate family )- it doesn't feel better.

Ironically, when you only love the good part of him, and consider the other part "not him" it confirms his feelings of needing to reject that side of him. It doesn't mean you can change him. You can't do that. It doesn't mean you accept his abusive behavior. It does mean you need to accept reality. He's his good side, he's the other side too.

Can he do better? Possibly, but he needs to want to work on it and be consistent with it. Can you manage the situation? That becomes up to you. On your part, you can become less reactive to his dysregulations- less JADE perhaps and see if that tones down the drama between you. But you can only work on your part of this. You might want to buy a blanket and a spare pillow for yourself to keep on hand if he resorts to taking them.

I used to be in arguments with my coparent with BPD and she honestly didn't comprehend how any of her behavior was inappropriate while it was happening. I remember one time she was blame shifting me and I responded, "Oh and you've been a perfect angel in all of this." She looked at me completely confused with tears in her eyes saying, "yes." The look she gave me read, "How could you be so cruel." She had no comprehension of what all she had done to push my buttons to get us to the point where I exploded. I could see she really didn't understand that what she was saying was inflammatory. I felt really bad for her, and actually felt guilty myself. I don't even remember what she did to push the fight to that level at this point, but the distressed look she had on her face will be imprinted on my mind forever.


You have a right to your feelings as much as he has a right to his.

It took me many months to get passed the guilt stage. Be careful with guilt. Guilt is depression's younger sibling. It can grow up to be depression, as well. I know from experience. Guilt is what put me in the position that I am in today. If hadn't been for guilt I wouldn't still be posting on this board.

You should be compassionate, validating and empathetic, but not at the price of your own well being and happiness, in my opinion.

Definitely look into Fear Obligation Guilt (FOG) and see what applies in your situation.

Hi Bluebutterflies-

In reading through the entirety of your other initial post re: the google suggestion you made to your H, your solo vacation - it seemed you were referring initially to his “split” as an extended period of ST (Silent Treatment).  And then once you were on that vacation alone (because he refused to join you), his “split” morphed into sending you periodic non-violent rage texts, basically accusing you of taking away his vacation; and then he accelerated toward divorce threats. 

Would the above be sort of a correct read of that thread on my part?

Thanks,
Gemsforeyes

Ahh I see now. I remember you (NotWendy) or someone else telling me that I cannot separate the bpd from the person. I am clearly still a bit in denial about the fact that his split is still who he is. It is difficult to reconcile—when he tells me sobbing that he can't believe he hurt me, vs the person who does hurt me. He's told me that he meant the rage mean messages when he sent them, but  regrets everything now and doesn't mean it. Now I have to accept that he had the intention of hurting me. It's like the childish tantrums you mentioned.

During our heart-to-heart, he told me that this experience was a wake-up call for him and he needs help. We both agree that what we did previously to move forward (heart-to-heart, going back to normal, then getting triggered because he didn't fully heal) wasn't ideal. What do you all recommend we can do once he is able to communicate again, that has worked for you or others? He was very earnest in saying he is searching for a pyschiatrist (he means therapy but here they mix up the terms a lot) and I am trying not to be too excited. I have already told him I will not have kids with him until his mental health is sorted, so I am wondering if I need to set other boundaries, like "We must divorce if this goes on for another year" but I don't know if that is too much of a stressor. I haven't told him of my suspicions of quiet bpd. I could suggest going to get a diagnosis?

Otherwise, I have given myself the boundary of waiting this out until end of the year to re-assess. Our lease ends Dec 31st so I would like to A) Get my 5k deposit back B) He will be forced to question our relationship, if we are to continue living together, etc. My other boundary is that if he hits me, I'm done. I will continue my best to try not to JADE, not be reactive like you (NotWendy) mention. Last night was fine, we were able to sleep in the same bed as usual.

@EZEarache I relate to and empathise a lot with your experience. It's always difficult to really paint our experiences to others. I will never forget the time my husband spoke to me in a voice that felt like it was from his soul, saying "I thought you abandoned me" while crying. Doesn't change what happened, but I will truly never forget it and it will always make me tear up. I will try my best not to let the guilt consume me.

@Gemsforeyes Thank you for reading through that post. Your perception is correct! I'm generalising now and saying he is split for 3 months, but between from April 22 to today (July 19) he had 2 days of being non-split. These aren't clinical terms, but it's just a way for me to share the gist of his state of beings:

full split = silent treatment, cannot look at me
semi-split = withdrawn but talking to me, but still emotionally dysregulated. he can look at me in the eyes
non or un-split = him being "normal" and emotionally regulated.

I mentioned before in your previous thread that you do have the ability to follow through on your boundaries. Keep in mind that boundaries reflect us- our values, what we can tolerate. They are not there to control the other person. They form our decision of what to do if our boundary is crossed.

Taken in a less emotional context. Why do we lock our front doors? The main reason is to keep those who are inside safe. That value is the boundary "I choose to keep myself and my loved ones safe". They don't stop someone from trying to break in. We can't control someone else's behavior. Now if someone were to break in, our boundary "keep safe" will mean we call the police, etc.


So some of your boundaries:

" If he hurts you physically you are out". Good. It doesn't mean he won't do it, it means you won't tolerate it and you will leave. The value "you choose a relationship where you are safe" and you will act on it if you need to.

Your boundaries for him getting help need to be similar. You can not control if he seeks help or is able to make progress. Part of this is his own motivation. If he's motivated only because you will leave, then it's not likely to work. If he's truly motivated on changing his behaviors because he realizes they aren't who he wants to be, maybe it will. But you can't control that.

I think it's reasonable to not break your lease. It also gives you some time to figure things out. Realistically, you will need to decide before the lease is up so you have time to find another place to live, job, etc in your home country or where you are.

You could come up with some goals and then your own assessment of how you feel.

For instance- he needs to have found a therapist and work with them on a regular basis and- you ( and you don't have to share this one )- need to assess your own feelings about if you want to continue the relationship. There isn't a quick solution to this. You can decide what you want in a marriage.

The boundary- not having kids for now- a good one. It's a lot harder to end a marriage with kids involved, especially when the parents may be living in two different countries.

Hi bluebutterflies-

@NotWendy and other very experienced members are giving you very good insight both here and in your initial thread.  It’s very clear when a new member is dedicated to understanding their partner and the “why’s” of hurtful behaviors.  And these behaviors are extremely hurtful and confusing.  And if you’re not cautious, they can be damaging to you. 

Pretty much all of us who are here came here at what was likely near the lowest emotional points of our lives.  Enough on that.

You have suspected that your H has BPD.  This is who he is.  All of it.  This is hard to say my friend and I’m sorry - but your H has essentially given you the Silent Treatment for 3 months now.  That is a form of coercive control.  It is a form of emotional abuse and manipulation.  It is an effort to get you to change something about yourself or the way you’re behaving - without communicating WHAT that something is. And during those three months, did he also withdraw affection and comfort from you?  I am so sorry to ask.  There is a lot to ST.

So if he is personally willing and actively seeking out therapy for himself, this is a primary area he needs to address... how to communicate effectively with his wife when he is hurt.  Just like we have to truly own up to it when we strike deeply with our words.  Because if he doesn’t and you stay, you have only seen the tip of this iceberg.

Please know, I don’t want to discourage you, though my words may seem to indicate otherwise.  If my ex had tried therapy at all, I would likely have stayed.

Love is wonderful and necessary for these relationships.  But you cannot love your partner to wellness.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

I went to an in person therapist today. I'm not sure if he fully understood the situation, but he mentioned that my H saying he's looking for a psychiatrist could be a manipulation tactic to get me to stay. I still have a hard time seeing my H as manipulative—his past behavior hasn't shown so (except for the antagonizing blanket pulling).

@Gemforeyes, you also mention that my H is giving me Silent Treatment. His splits range from absolute ignoring to being able to handle conversations. Majority of the time he is able to respond, with "yes" or "no"—which is where he is right now. Does that count as Silent Treatment? My understanding was that he didn't know how to deal with his emotions so he's imploding and avoiding me. However, I know that he masks and he is able to have conversations with people at work, he just doesn't want to talk to me (he said this a week ago when we were able to talk).

Some days I just want to go home and never look back. I'm just tired. I don't feel quite discouraged, I just feel at a standstill with what decision to make because I am tired of feeling pain. But I don't feel ready to just leave, as much as I want to. I'm not sure if I should get his parents involved. They know we are in a rocky place and they have told me he's been like this since he was a child (adopted). He has told me he doesn't like worrying his parents. Thoughts on this?

That's a good boundary to have. Remember, too, that there are a lot of abusive behaviors that don't involve hitting, that can be equally abusive, if not more so. Your husband may understand the line he cannot cross ( no hitting ) while raging at you in other ways that can take a cumulatively bigger toll.

My ex husband did similar things around bedtime that you describe. I've heard it called midnight frenzies -- getting worked up before bed is probably connected in some way to abandonment issues. He senses that you are pulling away to focus on something more important to you than him: sleep. 

n/BPDx would turn the lights on, throw pillows at my head, pull the sheets off the bed, play loud music. Nighttime was always the worst. He regressed to his most emotionally immature age.

You may represent mean mommy at these times and he is in full angry child mode.

Your husband has special needs and your marriage will be shaped by that. It takes tremendous strength to not be emotionally injured. As important as it may be for him to get treatment, just as important will be your own mental health. These are not typical relationships. You will be his caretaker more than vice versa, and you will have to develop a titanium backbone so that your needs are not subsumed.

It may be a good sign that he has tender cycles and some clarity that he acted badly. The key will be not in what he says, but what he does. Actions matter a lot in these relationships and that goes for us just as much as them.

With my ex, I learned to view silent treatments as a time out he needed to take. It was still painful but I began to see them as a return to baseline. It takes longer to do that with BPD. They are quick to trigger and slow to recover.

With verbal abuse, I learned that he was often in child mode during these spells and if I simply held up my hand and repeated NO or STOP, he could be dialed down to muttering. When you've been split black, it is hard to not take things personally. We often talk here about not getting on the roller coaster with them in spite of their insistence. Translating that into action in the heat of conflict can be a bit tricky -- so much is in the details. You'll have to figure out what works and what doesn't for your specific relationship and your values, which will become the source of your most precious boundaries.

Without those values, without boundaries, the relationship will devolve into insanity.

Knowing that he is splitting is huge, and accepting that he has a serious mental disorder is key. Finding a therapist is important, but so is reading. I think for me one or the other would not have worked. I had to customize therapy to the specifics of what was happening in BPD terms, first with my ex, then with my adult stepdaughter (also BPD).

And of course, this board.

You will need a lot of support and empathy and validation, and there is plenty of that here.  |iiii

That's a keen observation.  He's been looking for a psychiatrist three months and he still hasn't found one?  Is he looking?  How much time does he need?  Six months?  And if the first one isn't a good fit for him, how many therapists before you realize there are too many coincidental delays with essentially nothing accomplished?


My spouse too would build her rants and rages to a crescendo late at night.  More than once she exclaimed we would fix it That Night or no sleep.  I would beg her that I needed sleep to go to work the next morning.  There was no reasoning with her, I look back and those were probably dissociative episodes when she was consumed by her alternative zone.

She wasn't always this way, the early years had some periodic, um, episodes.  But over time they did worsen.  (That is what everyone reports... the poor behaviors get worse over time.)  Then we had a child and it was like going over a cliff.  And divorcing with a child was so vastly worse than if we had divorced childless and gone our separate ways.

While we are remote and anonymous and of course cannot diagnose, we have a vast store of collective wisdom.  You've reported a number of concerning behavior patterns.  One advantage for you is that you're at the start of your marriage.  You haven't been married for 5 or 10 years, have a few children, are at your wits end and only now learn about BPD and the other acting-out PDs.  So many of us were clueless, became invested with children and mortgages and didn't find our ways here to get educated until later in life where extricating ourselves was a monumental hurdle.

You are at an earlier stage in life where you can take a step back, educate yourself, decide for yourself whether these problems that have arisen are merely serious or, worse, overall insurmountable.

Silent treatment has also been referred to as stonewalling. Regardless of the reason for doing it, stonewalling has a damaging effect on relationships.

I think people have an idea that manipulation means someone is deliberately doing it. As if your H says to himself " I am going to pretend to find a psychiatrist in order to keep my wife here". That may not be the case, but it still can be a manipulation- driven emotionally for him.

Another thing to consider is - would therapy be effective? You may not be able to know that yet, but for it to be effective, he, himself, would need to be motivated to work with a psychiatrist. They can't read minds- if their patient won't share the kind of information they need to help them, their ability to help is limited. Your H needs to be motivated himself to find one and to work with them. If he's not showing motivation to seek one out- then one has to wonder how motivated he is to work on himself.

You are at an earlier stage in life where you can take a step back, educate yourself, decide for yourself whether these problems that have arisen are merely serious or, worse, overall insurmountable.

This is something to consider. Yes - marriage is not something to be considered lightly. Breaking a marriage is a big deal no matter what. However, it is a much more complicated issue when there are children, and joint assets. Age is also a consideration- people have different circumstances at different ages. This is why we don't post "leave" or "stay" messages- each situation is unique and one can't make these kinds of suggestions for anyone else.

However, you can assess yours and decide.

Hi all, I've been meaning to respond to your replies but just haven't done so. Know that I read them multiple times and took them to heart.

It's 1:14am now. Today's my birthday. Yesterday (as in a few hours ago), I tried to talk to my H about a few things. He had quite an attitude and was very rude. I asked him what he wanted and he didn't know. He said a few things, called me dumb, etc. While I did not mean to escalate the convo, it somehow got escalated to him saying he wanted to divorce. I said "fine, get your computer out then." We eventually de-escalated and said we would talk after I went on my trip to visit my friend.

A while later, he goes out to get wine, drinks, and comes home with his computer saying that we need to file for divorce. He keeps reminding me that this is what I wanted. I say no, we can talk about this later after my trip. I go on a walk, and he texts me trying to get me to come back and etc. He said he filed. (Here in Denmark, it's quite easy to do so. There may be more paperwork to come though).

We spent the whole evening "talking" (it's him being drunk and me crying), ranging from him saying how he hopes I will do well, to him blaming me. Essentially he is still hurt from what I said initially, leaving for Korea (he saw that as me choosing vacation over him), and me still hurting him by accidentally ignoring him. He's suddenly sharing all the horrible things I've done and he's felt, even though he's never or rarely brought them up. He says he can't trust me anymore. Though he said he'd go to a hotel, he stayed at the apt for 3 hours.

I finally told him to leave. I needed space. He said "If you say I'm leaving, I'm never coming back and this is the last time we see each other." But when I say he can stay here, he doesn't want to! So I tell him to leave, and he left. Now he's sent me many rage messages, saying that I'm the one who told him to leave, and that the divorce papers can be revoked, etc. Basically it sounds like this is the final breakup.

I've been sobbing, been talking to some friends who walked me through it. I need to sleep. I don't know if I want to go back to the US (home) or still go visit my friend who is also in Europe. I don't know. Any insight or just support would be appreciated.

There's a chance he will undergo the tender cycle and be back once his emotions return to baseline. For him, feelings = facts. If he feels better, then it is better.

That may not be true for you if you are looking at the relationship as a whole.

These types of high drama moments are unfortunately not uncommon, and can be worse.

What is your sense about where things will go from here? Have you argued like this before?

Hi livednlearned. We have never argued like this before. He was so scary, so close to my face, and said so many hurtful things. I realised that no matter how much I love him, and I still love him so very much, I cannot stay. He needs to choose to get help and change and I cannot be here being stonewalled for 3 months and who knows how much longer.

So while I don't know if the divorce actually went through or not, but I need to go back home now. My door is still open if/when he gets help, but I cannot be here to support him anymore. It breaks my heart and I've been crying nonstop. But I have to do this for myself.

I am glad to see you have made a decision to take care of yourself.

I encourage you to take a long range view of this situation rather than look at individual episodes. His focus on "you did this" as an explanation of his behavior is his projection in the moment, but it's how he copes with his own emotional discomfort. No two married people are exactly alike. Conflict in a marriage is inevitable. How they resolve these depends on their communication and emotional regulation skills.

Rather than look at your disagreements as individual situations, a long range view is that- this is how he is, this is how he's going to react to any emotional slights, perceived or real. There may be some good times between you, but this is the whole package.

Things may have worked better between the two of you during an LDR- and romantic dating but this is different than sharing daily lives in a marital commitment. How he has handled this so far is how he handles it. You agreed to be married before you saw this, and now you can see how being married to him is.

You can choose at this time. It's hard to break a marriage but even harder when there is joint property and children. If he's not able to regulate his feelings now, consider how he would act if/when a child is in the picture. I think you are in a position to choose- do you want this for the long term?  Do you want the father of your children to behave this way towards you and them?

Even if he did get help- this requires long term help. Years of help and also requires motivation and commitment to work at it from him. It's not an instant "find a therapist all is good now" as he may propose.

Once back in the US, you will have the support of being a citizen, familiar surroundings and culture- more grounded in the US than displaced in his country, and less dependent on him more. He may respond by being more romantic at a distance. But you now see the difference between him in a LDR and marriage.

Hi bluebutterfies-

I am so so sorry.  I’m sure this isn’t how you saw yourself spending your birthday.  My wish for you today is that you find a clear, peaceful and beautiful path filled with happiness.  And if your path points you home, I wholeheartedly support you.  You deserve that and so much more.

It appears your husband has forced your hand.  Please know, many of us who leave do so while we still love our disordered partners.  It’s just that the trust and safety within the relationship is gone, and that often means we need to be gone, too.  Sometimes we need to flee for our safety and that of our children.

In your case so far, with his divorce threats, stonewalling, silence and rage; and it appears he’s now taking a more aggressive posture (you were scared last light) may hold some greater weight, at least in HIS mind...

Does he think he’s got you over a barrel because you’re reliant on him for your resident card and therefore you wouldn’t dare leave his home country?  Does he think you’re so responsible that you wouldn’t, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES  leave him holding the lease or walk away from your deposit so he’s “safe” in what he’s doing?

What could happen is this... you could make the wise choice to go home today, to return to the US.  And he could return to the apartment and see that you’re not bluffing.  And then perhaps his months of silence and rage will end and he will be filled with love and kisses and tears.

And then somehow, you will find yourself apologizing for all that he’s done.  What then?

No matter what decision you make, we are right beside you.

With love on your birthday,
Gems

After my last message, I bought a flight home, wrote a goodbye note, and went to buy luggage. I came back to him at the apt. He was calm, not angry anymore, and mostly un-split. I could tell that he was more emotionally regulated. He told me that reading my goodbye note triggered him out of his split.

I don't remember how, but we ended up talking all night, from 5pm-12am. This is the husband I fell in love with, the one who can communicate and can be so emotionally intelligent. We talked about all of our honest feelings in the relationship, including the last 3 months of possible BPD plus everything else, our truth. We both agreed that we didn't know what we wanted to do but we didn't want to fully give up yet. He apologised and acknowledged for the day before and for hurting me, saying that he got so angry and hurt and getting drunk was not good. Since the divorce didn't go through despite him pressing the button, he proposed me delaying my flight so we can come to a full resolution or closure, but of course I can do what I wish. He proposed that we both come up with lists about what we want to work on ourselves, what we will work on for the relationship, and other thoughts.

I cancelled my refundable flight and slept. We met up the next day in the apt and also talked all day, about everything. We decided to try again. We both acknowledged that it may not work and that if another incident or split this bad happens again, we will likely not work out. But I think we both aren't ready to fully give up.

I'm aware that he may not get therapy like he promised again. Thus I'm still going to re-assess the relationship and my feelings in December, or really every month. He knows this, I've been very transparent. He knows I have been talking to you all, he knows I go to a support group. He knows I messaged his friend, everything.

We now meet once a week and submit a google survey we wrote ourselves, to evaluate our relationship. We end the night with gratitudes, what we're working on, what we learned about each other, etc. I'm much happier and he is too, but I am still processing everything.

Now, I also have to process my feelings about the relationship outside the BPD/the last three months. How am I feeling here? Is this the life I want? These are hard questions but I am happy to finally have the relationship "back" for a bit so I can fully decide what I want. He and I both really just want each other to live the life we want and I feel better understanding that he is not the manipulator that I feared him to be (ie, he was never using the residence or marriage to coerce me).

I know this isn't the outcome you all thought was happening. At the time of the divorce threat and being so scary, I just wanted it all to end. Now that he is un-split, I feel like I am at least not at stand-still and forced to look at the relationship in a more roundabout manner.

I sincerely hope that this is uphill for the two of you. That said, his sudden unsplitting at the moment where you have taken concrete action to leave, fits the push-pull pattern. I won't make an assumption that his sudden turn around is an attempt to manipulate you. I think it's sincere. Pw BPD have some control over their behavior when they are motivated.

The question is, what motivates him. Does he sincerely want to make changes to improve the relationship, or was he motivated by fear of abandonment becoming truly apparent at the time you were planning to leave? How can you tell?

You can tell when the fear of you leaving isn't there and you are back in the regular routine.  Then that motivation won't be there. He may then feel safe enough to split. If he's motivated to keep working at the relationship, he will continue to do that. Maybe not perfectly, there are ups and downs sometimes, but you will see the difference.

You can also work on your own relationship skills and boundaries. Do not walk on eggshells.

I sincerely wish you happiness, and hope for the best for you. The board is here if you need to post in the future- and it is without judgement. It's your relationship to decide to try to make it work. The board is here if you ever need it.

 :hug:

To echo Notwendy, this is probably the least judgmental group you will find when it comes to BPD relationships and whether to stay or not stay.

Have you talked about what you will do the next time he splits? He will split again, it's part of the disorder.

Given you are very open with each other, maybe you can talk through together the best way to manage the split. Some people are able to lay groundrules this during the tender, regulated cycle.

It could be as simple as, "I am not willing to be called names. That's a sign I need to get myself to ______ so I can get myself back to baseline/prevent my nervous system from freaking out. It doesn't mean I will leave, it means I'm keeping our relationship safe."

You may want to write it down, together.

For my ex, splitting was like being shot out of a rocket. He wasn't in a position to control what he said or did because he was reliving an old trauma against someone who harmed him, before he could even develop a personality (preventing him from developing a personality). It was a complete 180 when he split. What I never realized, and honestly, I'm not sure it would've changed the outcome, is that I didn't have to stay and take it in the chin. I had choices.

You two might be able to talk about what those choices look like.

Right now, as it stands, there is so much responsibility on his end for behaviors he may not be able to control. Long term, no matter how hard he works, there is a path where you have agency that doesn't lead immediately to: I'm leaving (if that isn't what you really want). It could be, "I'm leaving for now, I will be back when things feel more stable for the relationship."

You will always be the emotional leader and it probably won't ever be a relationship where it's fully level. That's the part that most of us have to truly dig deep. It is a special needs relationship. Having BPD is having a special need, or at a minimum, a high need.

Hi all, thank you so much for your support. Things have been going sort-of-uphill but definitely windy. I really appreciate all of your insight and that you have been so supportive.

My mistake was not doing a true thorough overhaul of emotions. We did not talk about what to do when he splits and he nearly did split a week ago. My anxiety is quite high whenever I feel a change in energy and mood, which is the theme of today's post.

I'm using this thread to also document my life. We have been continuously doing our daily affirmations and weekly meetings. The smaller things, like being more thankful or whatnot, we have both been improving. I have been very honest with him, telling him that I'm a bit walking-on-eggshells which he did not want me to feel. Today, I feel back at square one again.

Things were wrong from the start. We went to the museum late, waited in line, the lady recommended us going to the installation right away before it closes. We go and get in line, but then my H starts making comments about how the installation didn't look great, that there might be other things in the museum he'd want to spend more time on. I mis-read this as him not wanting to see it and insisted we just leave the queue. I am a very joyful, casual talker so I always say things respectfully and make sure he is okay with it. He exasperately said sure we can leave, but I could tell he was frustrated. We went back to the start of the museum and he pretty much walked through all of it quickly and we were back at the installation. We tried to wait again but it was closed. Long story short we tried to talk through what happened as we walk outside and go home, but his words always blamed me and he wouldn't really understand my point of view. I felt very hurt and misunderstood. Because of the shift in energy, he walks fast in front of me, walks away when I am talking, and in general the energy is so tense. I cried all the way on the bus home because I was very hurt and I feel emotions strongly. When we got home, he said I embarrassed him and he wouldn't really talk about what happened. We missed dinner reservations, as I was just crying and he was nearly in the anger mode that he was when we almost got divorced. I felt so scared. He was up in my face again, and pushed me once. He kept saying how I ruined everything and it was my fault, and that things were fine but I escalated it. Now he is in the living room and says he cannot speak to me right now.

I'm unsure what to do from here. I feel so hurt, so shaken. I understand I shouldn't have encouraged us to leave the line but all in all I feel like these things aren't a big deal. I felt so scared—I even told him he was scaring me. I'm slowly understanding that I am feeling more sad than happy in this relationship, yet I also knew how hard it would be to repair it. I keep fantasizing about a life without him but I also cannot envision a life without him. I also cannot tell if this is just a regular fight that married couples have, or if this is something no one should experience. I just don't know. Is this part of the healing process, because it would be a difficult road?

I don't know if I can bear it. I'm so sad. The way he spoke to me and the tone hurt me so much. But I also understand that people often need to work on the way they communicate in fights. Yet also, this is all over him perceiving that I ruined the day, when I am not so sure what I have done. I just don't know if this is a "normal" fight that people have.

I think I also love our story so much. We traveled the world together. He helped me heal and taught me how to love again. I don't know how to let go of that. Or if I should.

I just want to share that I was very emotional writing that post but I have calmed down and am now seeing things in a different light. Thank you.

How do you see it differently now and what do you feel about your emotional post now when you have calmed down?

Was it the first time he pushed you?

I think it's good that you recorded your feelings in the moment. These episodes can be cyclic. I think it's easy to rationalize your feelings away once that part of the cycle is over and one enters the calmer, loving part. By recording this, you could see a pattern.


He helped me heal and taught me how to love again. I don't know how to let go of that. Or if I should.

I think this is something to look into. What did he help you emotionally heal from? Past hurts can come into play into our relationships.


I also cannot tell if this is just a regular fight that married couples have, or if this is something no one should experience.

Married couples have disagreements. How they work them out depends on their ability to communicate and regulate their emotions. I think the question- should nobody tolerate this kind of behavior actually becomes one for you- do you want to tolerate this behavior?

It's understandable to not know what "normal" is if someone grew up with dysfunction in their family. A child only knows what they see. If your parents interacted like this, then it may feel "normal" to you when it's dysfunctional.

He had quite an over reaction to your suggestion to step out of the line in a museum. Yet, you are questioning your feelings. These kind of situations can feel confusing, make you wonder - did this really happen- when he's being a loving person again. Of note- he pushed you. Pay attention to this. Physical violence is never acceptable and can escalate.

You don't deserve how he treated you over this. You certainly don't deserve being pushed, left crying and upset and if you accept this kind of treatment- he sees he can do it. Please keep this in mind.

A couple of things about the dynamics. He was grumbling in the museum. You stepped in to "fix" the situation by suggesting the two of you leave. Most likely, you were beginning to fear this would turn into something he'd be angry about- so you jumped in to "fix" his feelings before it happened. This "fixing his feelings" isn't your role. He's an adult. If he doesn't want to stand in line- he can decide what do do about it. Fixing his discomfort is a way of walking on eggshells- something to be careful about.

and this too: I am a very joyful, casual talker so I always say things respectfully and make sure he is okay with it.

Being careful about what you say so you don't upset him- fear of saying the wrong thing- walking on eggshells again.

Seems like you are now in a more "it wasn't that bad" phase and feeling you were over emotional. You don't have to dismiss your feelings. This record of them may give you some clarity if you are wanting to remember them.

@15years I acknowledge how my anxiety played a part in the relationship, that I need to prioritise what I want and just stay in line if that's what I wanted. But I was too busy worrying about his feelings and ended up micro-managing, which ended up blowing up in both of our faces. I felt really overwhelmed in that moment, a day later I still feel overwhelmed but more calm. My trusted friend has been able to walk me through everything that happened, why it probably happened, and what to do next.

And this is the second time he pushed me. The first time was during the almost-divorce a month ago. He pushed me because I was in the way. Last night also, he kept pushing me in bed, as if to punish me throughout the night. I finally told him to stop, and he either did or he fell asleep.

Today, I tried to remind him that we have our meeting today but he refused, swearing at me and pulling the blankets over his face. I tried to be more forceful as we both agreed to do these meetings to help the relationship. He told me to leave the room and was "warning me" (in the past he's warned me when he felt like he was about to do something bad, and is protecting me). He threw my bag at the ground.

I tried again a bit later but he was the same. Right now I am trying to paint and talk to my friend. I think if this split lasts a month or so, I cannot stay in the relationship. I have plans to visit the US in Oct 8-30 anyways.

Overall our relationship has been good. We have been honest with each other about where we are at, we have been working hard to acknowledge and thank each other, small things we addressed. But the bigger things I'm realising, are still not being addressed.

@Notwendy He helped me heal from trauma from my past relationship. I learned to trust again, to love. He's been someone who has helped me with my past self-cutting harm. He's always been there to listen, to understand what I'm going through.

I don't want to tolerate this behavior. I don't and I made that clear during the almost-divorce. At the same time, he promised me he would work on it. I want to at least see him go to therapy and do DBT with me, minimum. I think I am so fearful of going home and regretting it.

I agree that I am now in a more "hey maybe this is just part of this up and down cycle as we move towards healing" but I am still upset. I am still crying, upset over how I am being treated. I acknowledge my part in being the caretaker yet I am so hurt and shocked.

I agree that I am now in a more "hey maybe this is just part of this up and down cycle as we move towards healing" but I am still upset. I am still crying, upset over how I am being treated. I acknowledge my part in being the caretaker yet I am so hurt and shocked.

Not to disappoint you, but this is not a healing cycle. This is a well documented "abuse cycle". It serves a function for him- to project his uncomfortable feelings. After he does ( and you feel badly during this time as he has projected them at you) there can be a period of calm and even remorse. It can feel as if things are improving but then, it happens again. People can be trauma bonded in this situation.


He helped me heal from trauma from my past relationship.  And trauma, anxiety can be the sticking point between the two of you. We tend to choose partners with whom we "fit" somehow. This doesn't mean each person has the same issues. It's more like "lock and key" fit where their different issues fit together. While love and support from others can be a support when we are working on our own issues, healing is self work, usually under the guidance of a therapist or someone who is objective- like a 12 step sponsor.

Self care is key in these situations. Getting counseling for yourself can help, even if it is your H who has the most outward disordered behaviors.

Hi BB, I agree with Notwendy (hilarious nickname btw)...
It is hard for you to believe, I get the impression you a person that internalises, tries to compensate and is an eternal optimist. But it he is abusive towards you and it is getting worse.
I am in a situation myself where I did not want to believe that, I believed for a long time that things could get better ( and a not healthy part in me still does) between my exwBPD and me but it is an almost given fact that once the devil is out of the box, he is not fitting back in.
It went from yelling after two months, to silent treatments after two months... to pushing and throwing after three months ( this is where I broke up)
Unfortunately we got back together and then all hell broke loose, with all of them simultaneously, alternated only by blips of  the sweet, passionate man I met.

Keep writing what you go through, it is incredibly valuable for yourself and others to keep track of what is happening.

True. bluebutterflies, I feel like you are holding up a mirror to the parts of my life I don't really want to see.
Speaking as someone still in a 16-year marriage, with a lot of kids... If I would have known then what I do now, I would have made different decisions with my life.
My husband has been in therapy for 14 years (with different therapists/psychologists/psychiatrists) and although there are times he is great and loving, he will still pull the blankets off me and rage at me while I am sleeping. He will still push, hit or punch me even if there are years of no violence in between.
I don't presume to know what you should do. But my husband is the sweetest, most loving and harmless-looking guy most of the time, yet his ability to change is severely impaired.

BB- I don't know what kind of evidence you will need to determine what to do. That will be up to you, but a couple of things to consider:

The evidence is more about you than him. How much of this are you willing to tolerate? How do you feel most of the time? Yes it's "normal" for couples to have disagreements and some times where you feel upset with each other but how people manage this makes a difference. Verbal and emotional abuse does not have to be an acceptable situation- unless you choose to accept it.

Abuse does not have to be physical to be hurtful and dangerous.

A local domestic violence shelter had a T shirt selling fund raiser. On the shirt it said "love doesn't hurt". That resonated with me because, emotional and verbal abuse was "normalized" in my family growing up but the way BPD mother treated me was verbally and emotionally abusive and I was expected to tolerate it.

Abuse usually isn't constant. It's a cycle. When the person is apologetic and loving, it appears they have control over it. People who abuse others aren't necessarily evil- they may be emotionally disordered. By recording your feelings and when this happens, you may be able to see a pattern if it is there.

It's understandable you don't want to have regrets if you leave. I don't think it's possible to have no regrets whether one stays or leaves. Few people are all good or all bad. I think the decision is complicated and one needs to look at the overall situation.

@Notwendy, ah I agree and I see what you mean. I spent all morning watching tik toks on trauma bond and crying. I had hoped that we were moving towards healing, but again actions mean more than words.

@judee thank you for sharing, I hope you are on your way towards healing. I will continue to write to document, as embarrassing as it feels.

@Protectourfamily, sending you so much love. I am promising myself that if I am in this position before my birthday next year, I will leave no matter what.

A few thoughts I've been having:

1. I'm scared of leaving, both the country and the relationship in fear that he will say that I gave up on us and did not work on the marriage (despite understanding that I worked the most on the marriage)

2. I agree that "love doesn't hurt." It's just still so hard for me to accept all of this as this is still the first long-ranging set of incidents that I have experienced, that I am still in shock that I am experiencing it in the first place. I feel like the relationship has been soo good for the most part, that I am having a hard time still processing this. However, as more time goes on, he still is more dysregulated.

I've written a goodbye letter but right now I don't know if I will share it and actually leave him. I don't know. My mind is confused. I've just gone to a free in-person counseling and I will go again.

I have a trip to the US from Oct 8-30. There are a few plans that I have set in mind, yet none of them feel right.

Yesterday I tried to talk to him and even announced I will leave Saturday if he doesn't talk by then. I packed a few backs but then broke down in realisation of what I had done. I'm a mess. I'm at a loss of how attached I feel to this person and also the deep love I do feel for him. I think of how proud I am of him, how I beam at him when he is shining.

Being afraid to leave because of what he will say is a fear based on his defining you. He can say anything he wants to say- and he probably will blame you- because often someone with this behavior does that- blames the other person. However, we are responsible for our own behavior. You are not the cause of how he treats you and what he says about you does not define you.

If I called you a pink elephant, would you believe me? Would you be afraid that I said you are a pink elephant? I don't think so. This is a boundary. You know for certain that you are a human. If I think you are an elephant and tell you that - does that make it true? Would you be thinking maybe I am right. Probably not.

You know you have done your part and more. If he thinks it's not enough, that doesn't change your truth. This is a boundary. You know who you are. If whatever he says about you isn't true, then him saying it doesn't make it true. Fear of what he might say could lead you to go against what you feel you need to do. He does not define you.

Don't make threats that you can not enforce. This shows him your boundaries are not strong and that he can make you change your mind.

You might wonder why he is doing this more than before you were married. It may not even be a conscious decision on his part, but that his fear of abandonment is diminished - you are married ( more of a commitment ), you have moved to his country and this makes it harder for you to be independent of him. Less fear leads to more of the behavior. It's part of the abuse cycle too. After an episode, there's more fear you will leave and he becomes good again. Actually, you are both acting out of fear in a way. You fear his reaction if you leave. This leads you to tolerating his behavior.

Do not give any indication you will leave him or are considering it. The most dangerous time for someone in an abusive relationship is when they are leaving. The partner becomes overcome with anger and fear and can be at their worse and actually cause serious harm to them. If someone is planning to leave, they are advised to have an escape plan.

I anticipate a reaction from him when you go to the states. He can't see you or control you then. He may escalate. He may also act out and threaten divorce if you go. He may do what he can to keep you from going.

I think it would help to call a domestic violence hotline in the US to talk about your situation. If you can't do it from where you are now, call when you get to the states. Take anything valuable or sentimental with you. If you choose to leave, going back to get your things can be dangerous. Also don't pack a lot so he thinks you are coming back. Clothes, furniture- these are replaceable. Something sentimental like jewelry or a picture book- tell him you are showing the pictures to your family if he asks. You don't have to know for sure what you will do, but I think contacting a DV hotline to talk to someone will help you decide and also know how to do it safely.

Do not leave a goodbye letter. Don't let him see these. He will escalate. If you choose to not return, the DV hotline will help you with how to tell him.

Hi bb, I hope you don't feel in anyway pushed in a direction... or embaressed.
This is about you and your feelings.
I understand you are in this relationship for quite awhile before this got consistently worse. I know from my own experience that even one good conversation in a rain of bad ones is enough to keep my hopes up.
It is not embarrassing to feel good about it one day and lose your hopes the other... it is actually these honest feelings that will help you on the long run to figure this out.

Yes, as Judee said- it may seem these replies are pushing you to decide, so I wish to clarify- your decision is up to you but since you are writing goodbye letters and contemplating the idea of leaving, the intent is - if you choose to do that, please look into how to do that safely.

Please also know that for many of us on this board, we have experienced something similar in one kind of relationship or another and if it was so clear cut- we'd have no need for this kind of board. People are complex. A partner or family member can be amazing, and loving, while also acting out in hurtful ways. The good times make us hopeful.

Feelings can be confusing. For me, love and fear were mixed. The people who both supposedly love me the most were also emotionally and verbally abusive. Love and fear coexisted in relationships too. Ironically, if someone was angry at me, it both scared me and felt comfortable- because it's familiar.

It's clear you love your husband and there's nothing to be embarrassed about that.

I agree that I need to not make threats I cannot enforce, but what do I do now that I have announced it? I change my mind literally every minute—as of now I want to stay until I go to the US on Oct 8 (which btw, he has been aware of this for a whole year now so I doubt he will be fearful when I go).

I am regretful of how we did not do a full communication overhaul, how we stopped talking about plans for diagnosis and therapy. In a way, I want to give myself that chance so I know that I tried (even though I know I am already doing my best and beyond). I think if I leave now I will still be regretful.

A few boundaries I made for myself
- If I cut or self harm myself, I am leaving
- If I am in this horrible situation by my birthday next year, I am leaving
- If he hits me, I am leaving

In a way, I am hoping that he can get out of this split so we can talk about what happened, because this time there is nothing he can blame his behavior on. Last time, I did agree that we both became lazy and roommates in the relationship, however throughout all of August we worked extremely hard on that. Now, he has to admit that he is the issue.

I don't want to leave, I really don't want to. I wrote the goodbye letter to get everything out of my mind but I have no plans to do anything with it. My mind changes per minute so I don't know what to do. My ideal scenario is that he gets help and we live a beautiful life together. How does one decide what to do?

Thank you all for listening. I agree that I must do things safely. I'm just quite shocked still, that I am even going through this. For now, I'm going to keep thinking about it. I went to an in person counseling today and they were very kind and walked me through my options as well.

Hi BB... with the letter, it happened.. It seems you won't feel good about yourself unless you give it an honest shot. You can tell him you are sorry about the letter and want to do that...
To keep your sanity and for him to know you are serious in setting boundaries, may I suggest next time something occurs and you want out, you vent here first before writing him?
I am only saying this because I don't want you to lose your credibility ( towards yourself and towards him)
I told my ex I wanted to leave many times which I think actually made him numb to it. It also harmed my own belief in myself.
I think all of these flip flop feelings you describe now are really normal in a crazy making situation you are in .
It is just another symptom of the despair and inconsistency of the relationship.

Do you think you can tolerate a lifetime with someone who behaves this way and may never improve?

Does he acknowledge that he has behaved badly and have a desire to actively seek counseling or do DBT?

Do you anticipate him having a similar reaction to you being out of the country in October that he had some months ago?

What would you tell a friend with a partner who behaves in a similar manner?

@judee to clarify, I never sent the letter, it is sitting in my Google Drive. The worst of what I have done is begin to pack, so I have empty suitcases in the living room now.

I agree, that may be a good idea to vet here before doing or saying something I may regret. I somehow have this mindset of wanting to gather my thoughts and be collected and calm before sending things here, because I also too don't want to write to all something I may regret.

@CatFamiliar No I cannot tolerate a lifetime. Yes he acknowledges he behaved badly and promised to seek counseling/DBT, but only when he is ready. He has already agreed to get a diagnosis but we haven't move forward with that. When I go out of the country in October, I do not anticipate him to rage. He mainly raged for Korea (the vacation) because I went without him, and for Amsterdam because I did not tell him. He was clear those were why he felt betrayed. Underneath it of course is still fear of abandonment. However me going to the US for a wedding he has known for a year.


I would tell my friend to assess and trust her gut, and to do what she feels right. However, what I would tell a friend is not usually what I can do for myself, as life is so much more nuanced. I get the goal of this line of questioning though.

Hi bb, ok ! well.. good for you. at least you wrote it out.
I mean don't get me wrong, I agree with cat, I just hope to be able to stand by you a bit to remain consistent towards him. You don't have to be consistent on this forum, this is exactly the place to vent, be confused, not know, doubt, say that you want to leave, say you don't, of all people most of us here understand exactly where you are at.

If you don't intend to leave on Saturday if he doesn't talk to you, best to undo that now. He may test the boundary and hold out until Saturday. If you don't go, then you have shown him it was empty words. Now is the time to say to him " I wish you would speak to me, but when I said I would leave by Saturday if you don't, I was upset at the time. Now that I have had the chance to think about it, I don't wish to do that.

Keep it short. He likely won't say anything back. Just then go about your business.

He will talk when he decides, not much you can do about it. The silent treatment is hard to deal with though.

Thank you so much. After Notwendy advised me to do so, I promptly told my H just that.

My plans for the near future:

- I moved my flight to the US up to Sep 25. I have already told my H in person that my mom will be indefinitely out of the country for emergency purposes and I would like to spend some time with her before she goes. I also shared that I will be seeing some friends, so that he does not think I am withholding info from him. He just went "mhm..mhm" and the next day I messaged him exactly what I told him, like "Hi my love, like I shared with you yesterday..." so that he cannot claim I did not tell him.

- Since I told him I will be back Oct 30, I will do just that. I do not anticipate him to rage when I go, as I told him two weeks before the outbound flight and have a good reason to go. We also talked about this ages ago and he was always okay with me going to the US earlier. If he does rage, I will simply ignore it or de-escalate (depending on what happens). TBH I am a *little* worried that he may feel abandoned again, but what can I do. He cannot say that I haven't attempted to fix the marriage when I spent the last week pleading him to talk at every chance.

- From now until Sep 25 I have been just focusing on myself and not talking to him (well he isn't talking to me in the first place). I will likely text him before I get on the flight to let him know I am going.

- I do anticipate him to reach out sometime between now and Oct 30. We will see what happens if he does.

- When I come back, what I do is dependent on if we talk or not. I intend on (with much love) telling him that his actions are tearing down our relationship and I cannot stay much longer if this continues. If needed, I will show him the spreadsheet of incidents I have compiled that dates back to 2018 (is this a good idea?). If he is completely against getting help, then I will likely just go home and divorce. If he is sure about getting help, I will insist on not finding a new apt right away and us living separately until he gets his stuff together. I need concrete evidence that he is doing DBT, etc and do not want to be tied to another lease in false hopes.

My one question is that it will likely take time to find a proper DBT course and psychiatrist and therapist etc. If he were to agree to all of this but is put on a waitlist, how would I move forward? (this is also a future question so perhaps we don't need to discuss now). I also have already made a list of couples/marriage therapists and would like to do this as well. I know a lot of you don't recommend it for people with BPD, but as my H thinks it is a good idea, I feel like the therapist may be able to share that he has BPD (or whatever he has!)

- I do not imagine us not having a serious conversation before Dec 31. We will by then have to have moved or sell our furniture, in preparation to leave.

Note: I am applying for grad school, ideally in the states but one here in Europe. If I get accepted to the US, I would have to go in August anyways. He is cognizant and is/was prepared for this for years. We were hoping to go this year but I didn't get in this year. So that is something I am also thinking about—prioritising my dreams. It all depends if I get in. The only reason for me to go to the one in Europe is if that is truly what I want, AND if he gets his stuff together.

Thoughts, concerns, would be appreciated. Have I missed anything?

I am going to highlight the thinking in this post- from a position of having worked on co-dependency. Codependency is being overly focused on the other person's feelings and controlling them- as a means of controlling our own feelings. It's misplaced and not successful because we can not control someone else's feelings. What we need to do is take control of our own focus and feelings- because we are responsible for that.

You seem to be putting the decision about whether or not you stay in this relationship in control of your H. If he talks to you, you will stay. But he may talk to you for a while and then not talk to you because this is the pattern he does. Making a long term decision based on his mood of the day - something that is constantly changing- means his emotions are driving the direction of the marriage. They lead you.

You are also putting the decision on the contingency he gets help. He may do that but he may also start, then stop, and you don't know if it works or not. He could be inconsistent about that too- and still - the decision is in his control.

You seem to be doing some proactive "control" "he can't say I didn't do this or didn't do that". He can say whatever he wants. He can call you a pink elephant if he wants to. He is blaming you for his behavior and you are picking up the responsibility for it. He is responsible for his behavior, and you are responsible for yours.

My concern is not in what you decide. That's up to you. However, basing your decisions on his behavior and feelings at the moment will leave you following the feelings of a disordered person. Overly focusing on him will lead you to lose touch with who you are and what you want. The graduate school goal is a good one. One thing to consider is- how will this relationship affect your studies? Can you concentrate on school work when there is emotional stress and chaos at home? Is this a supportive relationship for you?

I know you have a hard time accepting that his behaviors are a part of who he is. One aspect of BPD is that the behaviors are greater when the connection is closer and safer. This is a paradox but BPD impacts the most intimate of relationships the most. The fact that his behaviors increased after you married and moved overseas is consistent with this. That made the commitment stronger. What you may see is that his behaviors begin to improve as the end of your lease approaches. He may be at his best right before it's time to sign the lease. Once signed though, then the bothersome behaviors may increase.

While I know you want things to be better for him, that kind of change is not something you can control. What you see is who he is. All of it. The wonderful and the not so wonderful. The decision you are making is to continue in a relationship like this for the long run or to decide that a long term relationship like this is not something you can continue with for your own emotional well being. It's obvious you care about him but you also need to consider your own emotional well being.

Also the timing. It's harder to change a relationship status when there are children- and especially when parents live in two different countries. Legally, you are most protected in your own country, and he is most protected in his. Also - looking at his behavior- is this the person you wish to be the father of your children?

It's hard to think about what you want when there's emotional chaos. I think it will help to be in the US on your own for a bit. Pay close attention to your feelings. Surely you will miss him but do you feel calmer? More able to focus on your thoughts. While you wish for him to get counseling, it may be more helpful for you to do that, to help you collect your thoughts and feelings.

I understand what you mean NotWendy. I understand that things are standstill and I truly feel like I cannot make any decisions during these silent treatment periods. However in order to even make that decision, he needs to get out of this split/silent treatment/depressive episode and talk to me. I understand it is dependent on his behavior but I know I will regret just moving home and deciding on divorce without a proper conversation. I I need to know and see that he is putting effort into getting help in order to stay. If he refuses then I will divorce. If he tries and things still go downhill, then I will divorce. If I stop loving him then I will divorce too.

However this is why I am still seeing how things are by the end of the year and then I will re-assess. I also told myself that if I have a bad birthday next year, or if he tries to get help but things are still bad by my birthday, then I have leaving. Which is also why I am focusing on my goals now of going to grad school.

I understand that his behavior is a part of who he is and have come to terms with this. I have just read so many success stories where the person with BPD goes through DBT and is keen changing, and BPD is not in their life anymore. I think that is why I want to see how the next few months go. I have already told him that I will not have kids with him with his mental health like this, and he understands and agrees with this boundary. However, it is my understanding that once the person with BPD gets treatment and continuously work on themselves, they are very capable of having strong relationships and being parents.

In general, I just don't feel that I can make a decision right now. This is why I think seeing how things unfold will be helpful. I will not make a straight ultimatum, but I need to see actions immediately or I will leave.

it is my understanding that once the person with BPD gets treatment and continuously work on themselves, they are very capable of having strong relationships and being parents.


Yes, DBT can be helpful IF and ONLY IF the individual is devoted to continuously working on themselves.

Unfortunately few pwBPD are willing to enter into therapy, and fewer, if they do so, choose to make the long term commitment to pursuing treatment for the several years that it takes to have lasting improvement from BPD.

It’s heartbreaking to face the odds, but through accepting reality rather than focusing on the “what iffs” we have a much better chance of living a happy and fulfilling life.

When you open the door to therapy you have to be prepared for what walks through.

The process of doing therapy has proved to be more than some pwBPD could handle while also being in a relationship (usually marriage). One or the other had to go.

It can be true for many of us. The process of going to therapy led me to recognize what was terribly wrong in my marriage.

Who I was when I got married was not the same as who I became in response to therapy.

I don't have BPD, yet were someone to tell me I had to do DBT or else xyz, it would feel like an ultimatum and my responses would be driven by fear.

Perhaps the more fruitful approach is to let him know you are going to work on yourself and learn how to stay grounded when he is dysregulating, or removing yourself if he becomes destructive, or practicing radical acceptance that this is fundamentally who he is.

It's understandable you want to give this enough time for you to be sure, one way or the other. You have set some deadlines for yourself to reassess. I would suggest you keep these to yourself - these are personal "reassess your feelings" dates. Sharing with him would be an ultimatum. He also might be on his best behavior at these times so that you don't leave him. He doesn't want you to leave, but he also has a disorder that causes him to mistreat you. You love him but you also can love yourself. These are not easy relationships to stay in or to leave.

There is grief and sadness in realizing you've had enough of the hurtful situation. You yourself are the determinant of this. When I think of my situation with my BPD mother, there's grief. She pushed me too far. She knows it and I think she's sad about it, but also she just doesn't seem to be able to stop how she treats me. If I could change things by talking it out with her, it would have been done already. I have tried.

If she did go to therapy and work on her issues and make real change, maybe things could be different, but she is who she is, and I have cried so much over how she treats me and I still do sometimes. Yet each time I visit her, I'm in tears over the things she says to me. I am sure she can sense my fear when I visit her too. My decision to keep a casual distance from her is not about her, it's about me. How she treats me is hurtful and I have to keep myself emotionally safe.

These are not easy choices. It can be a struggle. You may love him, he may love you, but if he also hurts you, and that's part of the deal, then you can decide just how much of this you want to have in a marriage. While you are afraid he will say you aren't trying enough, is he trying too?  Is it a loving thing to not speak to you while you are begging him to talk to you? It also seems that when you two are talking, you do a lot of it- affirmations, discussions but does long term change come from that?

I would not share your thoughts about this. Make a point to reassess your feelings privately on the dates you have set.

Have you been following the ongoing disaster yellowbutterfly is currently facing?  (New marriage, OOP against her, locked out of her own apartment, facing horrendous allegations in spouse's divorce filing?)  She tried doing what all of us are inclined to do as Nice Guys and Nice Gals... trying fairness and sharing communications and reaping the whirlwind of overreactions.

From your posts, it too seems you're trying to use logic, normalcy, fairness, reasonableness and hope with your marriage.  Sadly, you need to accept a more realistic perspective.  Look at the history.  Your future can be predicted in general terms by pondering your past history in the relationship.  A brutal question is... Do you want that future?

Sure he may seek out therapy, he may apply it in his entire life and marriage.  Maybe?  Odds aren't great at this point.  What path will you have taken in the coming years if he is like so many who, in the less-bad side of the cycle, make conditional promises to change but never actually change for the better?  Promises and hopes mean little, actions are what count.

Fortunately, neither of you have children to make the relationship even more troubled and complicated.

Please read Notwendy's post again.  It is chock full of practical advice.  "I would not share your thoughts about this."  Why this?  Sharing your information can be TMI - too much information.  It enables the other person to sabotage your fine intentions and goals.  Did you note what happened to YB?  She was up front and in an attempt at fairness told her spouse she would divorce and he retaliated, burning all bridges and her legal issues and challenges went to the moon. 

This is pretty simple.  You need to leave and divorce.  Things will get worse.  You don't go into a relationship changing a person.  Clearly your husband is not self aware and therapy is not a quick fix to your marriage. 

It's understandable that some people have had bad experiences with relationships with someone with BPD- but each person needs to decide to stay or leave themselves. Board regulations are that we don't tell them to stay or leave as none of us know all the circumstances of others' relationships. For all of us, any opinions are not professional ones.

For the user name "BPD enjoyer" - what is it that was enjoyable?

Yellowbutterfly, chiming in here

My only regret is that once I decided to divorce my uBPDh is that I was "nice" by telling him so when he confronted me. I am in a whirlwind of h*ll right now. I wanted a non-confrontational no-fault divorce even though he is abusive and is actually at fault.

My advice follows @FD and @notwendy and what I WISH I'd done. Do not share ANY plans of ANY kind whether to stay or go with your SO. I'm locked out of MY apartment per his false petition for a TOP against me, filed a false DV report with the police, a false claim of cruelty with a fault divorce against me and I'm left to clean up all the mess with $$$$ of legal fees. He lied about everything and the law has to belive him until proven otherwise. Meanwhile I'm the one who's being/been abused by him. It's so not fair.

The only thing I did wrong was TELL HIM and think we could discuss a peaceful separation/divorce.

Whatever you decide, DO NOT think sharing it will help, nor will you get any clarity. I've found that is what therapy is for.

Also, I have not read all of your posts but if he's physically pushing you it will likely only get worse. I wish I'd gotten a TOP the day after my H did this to me. My only regrets again are not doing what others suggested: ie TOP (my lawyer, police), keeping my plans to myself etc.

I wish you the best, I know personally how hard this is...

other advice:
- write every interaction down in a locked note with dates, actions, etc.
- confirm things in text/email with your SO
- backup your phone/computer
- change your passwords
- create a safety plan with a therapist

Not to scare you, these are all things I did or wish I'd done. You may never need them, but your situation parallels mine so I wanted to share.

Thank you all for your insight. I have read your words over and over again. I still have not made a final decision. I am going to the US on the 25th and will take this time to think through everything. I hope to gain clarity on the situation so that I can make this decision on my own accord. I do need to come back to take care of some legal matters, to ship some paintings back home (if I were to leave). There's just a lot of stuff I'd need to do as I got a residence permit to live here, so I can't just leave. If he reaches out to me during this time, I will assess and likely let you all know.

So far I have a spreadsheet of every split he's had since the beginning of the relationship, dating back to early 2018. Though I love him, I am so hurt that I think this pain is beyond the relationship saving (meaning, I think I am so hurt I need to heal without him). I don't know what this means—whether it is a separation or divorce or just me moving back home. So I will assess and get back to you all. Right now I do not have a final decision but when I do and if I choose to leave, I will definitely need your advise.

For documentation purposes: He hasn't spoken to me in a week, and a week ago was me just trying to get him to talk. Yesterday he said I could talk but he wasn't going to talk. He said that I need to figure out why he's angry and that he shouldn't have to tell him (he says this during big, long splits, like the last time he said this was when I accidentally ignored him). He called me a c**t and told me to leave him alone. He said he didn't know if he wants to be with me. The night before he spent some time on the couch before going back to bed. When I woke up, I saw that he had carelessly tossed my clothes that were on the couch, onto the floor, which includes my laptop which was flipped over. I don't think he did it with intentions of destroying anything nor did he damage anything, but I was so angry he would even do that to my computer so thoughtlessly.

Today, I threw away a steak that was in a plastic bag, because it's been there for a week and it was brown. Just now he came in and asked what happened to his steak and I said I threw it away as it was old. He got mad and went to bed. I went to the bedroom to apologise and ask if he was ok, and he just sulked and said he was mad. I realised again that I'm dealing with someone who is 5 years old in terms of emotions. (I mainly went to the bedroom to confirm that he's mad).

As of this moment, I'm in the phase of just being angry. I'm so mad that I moved to another continent, another country to be treated like this. Then I wake up and I'm sad and in mourning. I'm starting to realise that the good times we had, as beautiful and intense and passionate as they were, aren't enough. I'm starting to realise that I dont even think we're a good match, as much as I wanted to believe it. I don't know if I'm just making excuses to leave, but this is what I'm feeling right now.

I will go to the US and start another thread after I've processed and thought through things a bit. Thank you all.

I am not an expert or trained in this kind of advice. I think it would help if you were to call a DV hotline while in the US to get some information about how to keep yourself safe should you choose to leave. They may advise you to not return at all for your own safety.

If you decide to split, but choose to return for certain reasons, please consider bringing someone with you- possibly a male- not romantic in any way ( or can be inferred as such)- a brother, uncle, father. One of the most dangerous times for an abusive relationship is when the partner attempts to leave. Emotions are escalated. Having someone with you changes the dynamics, he may be less likely to act up with a male there but another person with you in general changes the dynamics.

If your main reason to return is for "closure" consider that sometimes this doesn't happen.

I understand you are still figuring out what to do- but it's a good idea to get information about this should you choose it. If there's something sentimental to you that you can fit in a suitcase and have it be non conspicuous- such as photos or jewelry-bring it with you. Absolutely don't give the impression that you are leaving for good or even thinking about it. This is important for your safety. Remember, clothing, shoes- all these can be replaced. Pack just what you need of these items for your trip.

I think most legal work can be done online now.

I know you have a lot to think about. The first thing is to get yourself back to the US - and think about what you wish to do next.

Notwendy wrote many important points.  This one about closure, I have many times written that, when dealing with pwBPD, Closure is for You.  As a general observation, pwBPD will not perceive your efforts for polite closure and instead often use the expression or situation against you.  Sad but true.  Gift yourself closure without involving him.

Also, take the time to look back over the relationship, both before and after marriage.  What he did is who he is.  You are unlikely to 'change' him by very much, if any.  Typically these relationships worsen even more over time.  Ask yourself whether you are willing to expose yourself to that sort of future.

Hi bluebutterflies-

I was just thinking of you and wondering how you’re doing... how your trip to visit home in the U.S. went, and whether you’re back in your country of residence now with your uBPDh?

I’m hoping you were able to really take some time to relax and gather your thoughts about your marriage.  When you have a moment and if you’re up to it, please let us know how you’re doing.

Warmly,
Gems

Hi blue butterflies,
I’m sorry to hear things aren’t going well for you with your husband. I remember talking to you when you first joined here. I’ve always been in the bettering board, trying to give others hope and encouragement. Things aren’t going well for me right now. I hope you’re ok.

Hi all. I've taken a break because I wanted to focus on the relationship without any insight, opinions, etc. I'll give a brief update.

When I arrived to the US, he sent me a long message saying he was ready to divorce and all of the reasons why. They were not malicious, he just said he was tired of hurting and that we weren't right for each other. We called and I was ready to divorce (I don't know if that's what I actually wanted but I was so exhausted). He broke down crying and had a panic attack. We agreed on giving it another go. He said he basically realised that divorce is not what he wanted and he was so overshadows by emotions he couldn't control, and we basically spent all of October messaging long messages back and forth discussing what needs to change, what our expectations are, our insecurities, anything. Since then, he went to his GP, they agreed that he has depression though he needs to be formally diagnosed. He has reached out to a therapist (the appt is this Thursday) and even told her that he thinks he has BPD and wants to do DBT. I can't write out everything we discussed but I'll just say it was an intense month of us communicating and him improving himself through journaling, researching therapy, DBT, listening to podcasts, etc. We truly shared everything we've been feeling and he outright apologised immensely for being abusive, for making me feel unsafe, etc. 

When I came back Nov 1, things were great for a week. The second week things were good but I noticed that he was trying a bit less. The third week was still good, but in general I was beginning to get anxious. The other shoe dropped yesterday when I pointed out that one of the two glasses he was trying on had a blue glare, and his mood just dropped. I kept calm the entire time home and we were actually still able to converse. But I did ask him if he was okay when we got home and that's when he burst and I presume, split again.

It's clear to me that my husband is a good person with good intentions and truly does love me. I can see that he really does want to change and that he's able to accept all of these things—that he has a mental illness, possibly BPD, and that he may lose me if he cannot change. We've had long conversations many times since I've been back as well, about how nervous we are but how excited he is for therapy and how much he wants to get better.

Though I am tired and sad, I still have some hope. At the beginning of the relationship he went from apologising but still in denial, to now fully accepting and ready to change and even saying "BPD".

What I will do now is pretend he doesn't exist again (I've learned that trying to talk, trying to touch, etc makes things worse), see if he goes to his therapy appointment, and assess from there. I need to do my art portfolio so I will focus on that. He knows I am likely moving back to the US next August and I will continue to move forward with my plans.

What I am regretting and kicking myself for, is not bring up "what to do if you split again?" Time and time people have suggested I do this but I kept enjoying the good times and not digging enough into the possible BPD. In our long messages, I have expressed my worry about if his behavior goes sour again. He said he wasn't sure, but he will try his best and do everything he can to make me happy, not just for me but for himself.

I'm sensitive right now, so I am just seeking support. Though the friends I trust are there for me, I still feel so lonely. I feel like a broken record to them, though they insist I'm not. Thank you all <3

No advice - just support. Hoping you will come to the best decision for you. Thanks for posting your update!

Thank you so much NotWendy. For now there is no decision to make, I do want to be with him. But again I will re-assess at the end of the year and continue to journal, monitor my feelings, his activity, etc.

I meant you would come to a decision in time about how his personal work on his behavior is going, whether it's helping him and whether or not he is staying with it.

What has happened in the short run is a pattern of push pull. When you went to the US, he became fearful of losing the relationship. The motivation for him was external- based on your decision. He didn't want to lose you, so he was very motivated at the time to have you come back and try again. There is nothing wrong or insincere about his feelings or his promises. He was motivated to work on things at the time.

What changed was that when you returned, the motivation- which is external- lessened. You were back, and committed to the relationship. This is normal- this is how humans work. We work for a paycheck but for some of us, if we won the lottery, our motivation to work would not be there anymore. We'd quit our jobs.

Unless we were internally motivated. Some work is internally motivating- we like our work- and yes, we like the paycheck too, but if we won the lottery, maybe we'd do something similar like volunteer or stay at the job due to internal motivation. Therapy and self change is most effective when someone is internally motivated to do that work, because they want to change. Internal motivation helps us keep at something, even when challenged or not, because we want it, it aligns with our values.

You know your H, nobody here can know if he's internally motivated or not. Here is how you will know it. He will keep working on himself, even when you are back and the external motivation, the fear of losing you, isn't there as much.

If you continue in this pattern- if you decide you can't manage things as they are- and pull back, and he then shapes up, and you come back and he then goes back to his old behaviors, you will know it's external motivation.

However, you are ,at the moment, motivated to stay with him. Nobody here will tell you to stay or leave. That is entirely up to you. On your part though, you can not predict or change your H's behavior. If he continues to do his splitting behavior- you can't control that. What you can control is your response to it. You will need to work on managing your own feelings when he splits, do your own thing, whatever that is, and not have your feelings dependent on his moods, or they will go up and down with him and the two of you will continue together in the push-pull pattern. His motivation varying with whether you are pursuing the marriage and your feelings varying with his moods. It would be better for you if you could stay busy, and less affected by his moods during his split times. For this, you may also need counseling and support.

I hope for the best for you too with this, and that he does do the work to improve his behaviors and that it gets better for you.

Notwendy wrote so well.  Copy that to somewhere so you can reference it periodically.  Not on the family refrigerator of course but somewhere in your personal space along with your other reminders and encouragements.

It is excellent for the here and now.  As you know, so much depends on not just how he is, keeping in mind his push-pull relationship tendencies, but also on his progress and whether it continues.  If the relationship reaches a plateau where it seems the ups and downs are aren't improving any more, then it may be time to assess your long time goals and expectations.  Five years, ten years from now, would you still want to keep trying and managing as you are now?  If you want children — and children are a huge marital complication where it is no longer just the two of you — his mental health too would be a major factor since parenting is not just 20 years, it's a lifetime.

Ah I understand now. Thank you so much, I read the "decision" as in, I needed to decide right now if I wanted to stay or go. I'm considering moving back to the "Bettering" board as well but for now will just stay put. I will just do my best like you said to focus on myself and try not to be affected by his moods.

I did wonder whether my living with him would be a good or bad or neutral idea. I wondered if I should have stayed somewhere else, but either way I'm not sure if it would have mattered. He still needs to be internally motivated.

And as much as I appreciate his words, I need to see action. We worked together to find a therapist for him and he has his first therapy appt this Thursday and I just hope he goes. I will be devastated if he doesn't, but I cannot control that. So I will take things day by day and focus on myself and just see what happens. Hopefully things really go uphill from here. I really hope so, because this is the first time he's really admitting and taking accountability for everything and more.